If you used SL and then switched to TOG, can you help me think through this?

[SewLittleTime]

I'm really intrigued by TOG. I keep looking and researching it. I have printed off the 3 week samples. I have a copy of a friend's Classic here that I have looked through. It seems like it might really work for our family. I like the idea of combining my kids in same time period, but giving them some on each of their own levels. I like the way Writing Aids looks. I just leary b/c we have been doing SL all along. It has been good, but it has its own sets of pros and cons. I know I can add some SL books in. My biggest concern is what if I invest in TOG, and then we hate it. I also feel some loyalty to SL after using several cores. I'm not sure why, but I do. But the thought of eventually doing 3 cores though boggles my mind.

 

So, do I just need to make a trial run through one unit of TOG to see if we like it before we start back officially in the fall? I'm so on the fence...I'm not sure which way to go. Would buying just a unit be enough to give me a good idea of if TOG would be a fit. There are so many things that appeal to me with both SL and TOG that I'm needing to talk this out. Maybe someone can give me something else to think on that I haven't thought of before.

Edited May 3, 2010 by SewLittleTime

[mom22722]

Bump

[Melissa in CA]

I used several years of SL and now use TOG. I say go for it! If you're concerned it might not be a good fit just buy one unit and try it out.

 

After using a couple of the high school cores, mainly Core 300 and Core 400, I knew that SL was not a good fit for us for high school. I just did not like it at all. Core 400 was like a college level course; I don't think either of my older boys got anything out of it. I could not sell that Core fast enough. Hated it. With Core 300 I picked and chose the books I wanted to use, so that one wasn't so bad, but I changed it so much that, in all honesty, it really wasn't a SL Core. Same with Cores 3 & 4. ;)

 

When my youngest ds got finished with Core 4, I knew that I needed something else. I decided to give TOG a try. I downloaded the 3 week sample, got all the books that I could find at the library, and did a test run. I loved it! I am a curriculum tweaker at heart and have never felt the need to tweak TOG. I never find myself searching for better and/or different books. And TOG gives me everything I need to tweak with. I can just assign the primary reading if I want, or the primary and the in-depth, or the primary and the worldview, or all three. I always assign the lit. And if I don't assign the vocab or the mapping, I never feel like we missed out on something important. As long as my ds is reading the primary book(s) then I know he is getting plenty of history. I love the questions, though I never assign them all and I love the lit activity pages. TOG just gives me so much more than SL did and I love it, love it, love it.

 

Do I miss SL sometimes? Sure I do. I still have fond memories of our first years of SL. But I truly disliked their upper cores, and I think jr. high and high school children SHOULD be required to think on their own, answer questions ON PAPER, complete mapping assignments ON PAPER, and take ownership of their education...and one should not have to read each and every book with/to them so one can have discussions! :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry, not meaning to bag on SL. Like you, I do still feel a sense of loyalty toward them. Not sure why though. I always hated their IG's and rarely got anything meaningful at all from John's notes in them. The writing assignments always had my boys shaking their heads in wonderment because they could not figure out exactly what John wanted from them. Not a lot of instruction there. The only thing I liked were the books...which don't really belong to SL at all. But, SL took great care of me and treated me very well for many years. One can't help but be/feel loyal. :001_smile:

 

So, in my opinion, SL is GREAT for elementary; OK, but not great for jr. high; terrible for high school. Now I am sure some families have used it in high school with great success, we were just not one of them. My boys needed more than just reading, reading, reading, current events and a few mini reports. :tongue_smilie: And I really didn't like having to read my high school boys' history books with them in order to have any type of intelligent conversation and know that they were actually learning something.

 

In a nutshell, TOG gave/gives me everything I want in a curriculum and MORE. But it conveniently makes that "more" a gravy that one can add if one wants, or not if one is feeling quite fat already. ;) I say take it for a test run. You'll either love it, like it, or hate it. You can't know that for sure unless you try it.

[ABQmom]

I used several years of SL and now use TOG. I say go for it! If you're concerned it might not be a good fit just buy one unit and try it out.

 

After using a couple of the high school cores, mainly Core 300 and Core 400, I knew that SL was not a good fit for us for high school. I just did not like it at all. Core 400 was like a college level course; I don't think either of my older boys got anything out of it. I could not sell that Core fast enough. Hated it. With Core 300 I picked and chose the books I wanted to use, so that one wasn't so bad, but I changed it so much that, in all honesty, it really wasn't a SL Core. Same with Cores 3 & 4. ;)

 

When my youngest ds got finished with Core 4, I knew that I needed something else. I decided to give TOG a try. I downloaded the 3 week sample, got all the books that I could find at the library, and did a test run. I loved it! I am a curriculum tweaker at heart and have never felt the need to tweak TOG. I never find myself searching for better and/or different books. And TOG gives me everything I need to tweak with. I can just assign the primary reading if I want, or the primary and the in-depth, or the primary and the worldview, or all three. I always assign the lit. And if I don't assign the vocab or the mapping, I never feel like we missed out on something important. As long as my ds is reading the primary book(s) then I know he is getting plenty of history. I love the questions, though I never assign them all and I love the lit activity pages. TOG just gives me so much more than SL did and I love it, love it, love it.

 

Do I miss SL sometimes? Sure I do. I still have fond memories of our first years of SL. But I truly disliked their upper cores, and I think jr. high and high school children SHOULD be required to think on their own, answer questions ON PAPER, complete mapping assignments ON PAPER, and take ownership of their education...and one should not have to read each and every book with/to them so one can have discussions! :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry, not meaning to bag on SL. Like you, I do still feel a sense of loyalty toward them. Not sure why though. I always hated their IG's and rarely got anything meaningful at all from John's notes in them. The writing assignments always had my boys shaking their heads in wonderment because they could not figure out exactly what John wanted from them. Not a lot of instruction there. The only thing I liked were the books...which don't really belong to SL at all. But, SL took great care of me and treated me very well for many years. One can't help but be/feel loyal. :001_smile:

 

So, in my opinion, SL is GREAT for elementary; OK, but not great for jr. high; terrible for high school. Now I am sure some families have used it in high school with great success, we were just not one of them. My boys needed more than just reading, reading, reading, current events and a few mini reports. :tongue_smilie: And I really didn't like having to read my high school boys' history books with them in order to have any type of intelligent conversation and know that they were actually learning something.

 

In a nutshell, TOG gave/gives me everything I want in a curriculum and MORE. But it conveniently makes that "more" a gravy that one can add if one wants, or not if one is feeling quite fat already. ;) I say take it for a test run. You'll either love it, like it, or hate it. You can't know that for sure unless you try it.

 

This post is exactly why I am giving TOG a whirl this coming fall. We are almost finished with core 7 and while it was fine the last two years, I could see that it was not what I needed for high school. I need everything that the above post says TOG will give me--for my high schooler and mid-schooler. My younger dc will be fine with just good books, but I feel that TOG will give me a list of those too.

[SewLittleTime]

I used several years of SL and now use TOG. I say go for it! If you're concerned it might not be a good fit just buy one unit and try it out.

 

After using a couple of the high school cores, mainly Core 300 and Core 400, I knew that SL was not a good fit for us for high school. I just did not like it at all. Core 400 was like a college level course; I don't think either of my older boys got anything out of it. I could not sell that Core fast enough. Hated it. With Core 300 I picked and chose the books I wanted to use, so that one wasn't so bad, but I changed it so much that, in all honesty, it really wasn't a SL Core. Same with Cores 3 & 4. ;)

 

When my youngest ds got finished with Core 4, I knew that I needed something else. I decided to give TOG a try. I downloaded the 3 week sample, got all the books that I could find at the library, and did a test run. I loved it! I am a curriculum tweaker at heart and have never felt the need to tweak TOG. I never find myself searching for better and/or different books. And TOG gives me everything I need to tweak with. I can just assign the primary reading if I want, or the primary and the in-depth, or the primary and the worldview, or all three. I always assign the lit. And if I don't assign the vocab or the mapping, I never feel like we missed out on something important. As long as my ds is reading the primary book(s) then I know he is getting plenty of history. I love the questions, though I never assign them all and I love the lit activity pages. TOG just gives me so much more than SL did and I love it, love it, love it.

 

Do I miss SL sometimes? Sure I do. I still have fond memories of our first years of SL. But I truly disliked their upper cores, and I think jr. high and high school children SHOULD be required to think on their own, answer questions ON PAPER, complete mapping assignments ON PAPER, and take ownership of their education...and one should not have to read each and every book with/to them so one can have discussions! :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry, not meaning to bag on SL. Like you, I do still feel a sense of loyalty toward them. Not sure why though. I always hated their IG's and rarely got anything meaningful at all from John's notes in them. The writing assignments always had my boys shaking their heads in wonderment because they could not figure out exactly what John wanted from them. Not a lot of instruction there. The only thing I liked were the books...which don't really belong to SL at all. But, SL took great care of me and treated me very well for many years. One can't help but be/feel loyal. :001_smile:

 

So, in my opinion, SL is GREAT for elementary; OK, but not great for jr. high; terrible for high school. Now I am sure some families have used it in high school with great success, we were just not one of them. My boys needed more than just reading, reading, reading, current events and a few mini reports. :tongue_smilie: And I really didn't like having to read my high school boys' history books with them in order to have any type of intelligent conversation and know that they were actually learning something.

 

In a nutshell, TOG gave/gives me everything I want in a curriculum and MORE. But it conveniently makes that "more" a gravy that one can add if one wants, or not if one is feeling quite fat already. ;) I say take it for a test run. You'll either love it, like it, or hate it. You can't know that for sure unless you try it.

Thank you, Melissa in CA. Your post is helpful. I have really been torn about this. I find myself tweaking the tar out SL LA's writing. WA is something that really looks interesting to me. I like being able to go up or down if necessary for writing assignments.

 

Question: One of things I love about SL is that I order all my books and just have them on the shelf. My oldest rereads them constantly. Do you find it better to just plan ahead and utilize the library or do you buy some/all your books?

[Tracy]

My biggest concern is what if I invest in TOG, and then we hate it.

 

You could purchase just one unit for about $50 and try it out to see if you like it.

[Shelly in the Country]

But the thought of eventually doing 3 cores though boggles my mind.

 

 

This was the initial reason I began to look at TOG. I used Cores 2, 3, and 4 with my eldest. She enjoyed it....she's a voracious reader and loves being read to. But I have 3 younger children and my when my second child started doing school I didn't see how I could continue doing things the Sonlight way without sacrificing somebody's education. I know some folks combine kids in the same Core, beefing it up for olders and easing it up for youngers, but that sounded like a lot of work. TOG sounded like a program that would do all that for me.

 

And now one year later after using TOG year 1 with dd 10 and ds 6:

 

My daughter and son stayed on the same topic all year which was great. They do a lapbook together on the topics they are studying. They even made up their own "play" about Alexander the Great the other day during their playtime. What I like best about this year though is how much my dd10 has learned. When we were using SL I felt like she only got a smattering of history with a whole lot of literature. TOG goes deeper into history imo. The geography with TOG is much, much better than SL's map work. I really wish we had used TOG from the beginning. I also like that TOG schedules alternate resources for each week. This allows me to use SOTW with ds6 without the heavy tweaking I had to do with SL when I wanted to use SOTW with dd in her first go-around through the 4-year cycle. It also gives me a ready book list to give my kids additional readings if they want more (which often happens with my dd).

[Melissa in CA]

Question: One of things I love about SL is that I order all my books and just have them on the shelf. My oldest rereads them constantly. Do you find it better to just plan ahead and utilize the library or do you buy some/all your books?

 

I use the library a lot. TOG uses many more history books than SL does and oftentimes they are only used for one week. TOG also has some spine's that are used for entire units, multiple units and even multiple years. Those books I purchase. In fact, I usually purchase all books that will be used for 9 weeks or more. You can find many of them used on Amazon, or free on paperbackswap. TOG is probably more expensive than SL, I don't know as I haven't really compared, but TOG is also more history heavy...lots and lots of interesting history books spread out through the year. The lit has a lot of the same books SL uses, but also some I had never heard of, and to my surprise, my ds has loved all of them.

 

So here is what I do. I start by purchasing (either new or used) all the Spine books I will need for the year. I then go to my library's website and search for the books only used for 9 weeks or less. I place them in my library 'list". I also list/look for these same books at free sites like paperbackswap and put them on my paperbackswap request list. I have received many of my books this year for free from paperbackswap, and have already acquired many TOG books for future years as well.

 

If I have not already acquired a book(s) I will need from paperbackswap, then about three weeks before I will need it/them, I go to my library website, go to my previously made "list" and request the books I will need. It usually takes them two to three weeks to get my books in. If I am requesting more than one book, I will wait until they have them all in before picking them up so that they all have the same return date. I can also very easily go online and request an extension on any book I have. My library gives us two, three week extensions...meaning I can keep a book up to nine weeks.

 

So, the library works great for me. It does take a bit more work than just ordering a SL core and having all your books on-hand, but I don't feel the strain at all really as I do all my school planning over the summer. I enjoy planning, so it's actually fun for me. Now you could actually purchase all your books from TOG's bookshelf and then you'll have the same feel as you do with SL, but it will be pricey. On the other hand, if you will have younger children coming up who will use the books again, then it may be worth the cost to own them. I only have the one child left to school, but if he had younger siblings, I would purchase all his books to use them for later. Make sense?

 

Let me know if you have further questions. :D

[momee]

I did the opposite, from Tapestry TO Sonlight.

PM me if you would like to. Been a TOG user for roughly 5 years at all levels.

Now doing 3 SL cores.

[Joy at Home]

I did the opposite, from Tapestry TO Sonlight.

PM me if you would like to. Been a TOG user for roughly 5 years at all levels.

Now doing 3 SL cores.

 

I'd love to hear about your experiences with both. I'm a SL'er who has jumped to TOG and back again several times. If you feel like you're hijacking, you can PM or start a s/o thread. I'm really interested in your thoughts

thanks

lisa

[Janice in NJ]

You say that there are pros and cons to SL for you. What are they?

And you indicated that there are things that appeal to you with both SL and TOG. Can you explain?

I own SL cores and TOG materials. But what works for us and why it works for us won't help you. :001_smile:

 

Can you explain what you like about SL and what you don't like?

Can you put your finger on what appeals to you or doesn't appeal to you about TOG?

Then I could try to center my comments on what you see rather than what I see. :001_smile:

 

Just an idea....

Janice

[abrightmom]

:lurk5: :bigear:

[Joy at Home]

:bigear:

[SewLittleTime]

This was the initial reason I began to look at TOG. I used Cores 2, 3, and 4 with my eldest. She enjoyed it....she's a voracious reader and loves being read to. But I have 3 younger children and my when my second child started doing school I didn't see how I could continue doing things the Sonlight way without sacrificing somebody's education. I know some folks combine kids in the same Core, beefing it up for olders and easing it up for youngers, but that sounded like a lot of work. TOG sounded like a program that would do all that for me.

 

And now one year later after using TOG year 1 with dd 10 and ds 6:

 

My daughter and son stayed on the same topic all year which was great. They do a lapbook together on the topics they are studying. They even made up their own "play" about Alexander the Great the other day during their playtime. What I like best about this year though is how much my dd10 has learned. When we were using SL I felt like she only got a smattering of history with a whole lot of literature. TOG goes deeper into history imo. The geography with TOG is much, much better than SL's map work. I really wish we had used TOG from the beginning. I also like that TOG schedules alternate resources for each week. This allows me to use SOTW with ds6 without the heavy tweaking I had to do with SL when I wanted to use SOTW with dd in her first go-around through the 4-year cycle. It also gives me a ready book list to give my kids additional readings if they want more (which often happens with my dd).

This is helpful to hear. It calms my fears some and addresses some of concerns.

I use the library a lot. TOG uses many more history books than SL does and oftentimes they are only used for one week. TOG also has some spine's that are used for entire units, multiple units and even multiple years. Those books I purchase. In fact, I usually purchase all books that will be used for 9 weeks or more. You can find many of them used on Amazon, or free on paperbackswap. TOG is probably more expensive than SL, I don't know as I haven't really compared, but TOG is also more history heavy...lots and lots of interesting history books spread out through the year. The lit has a lot of the same books SL uses, but also some I had never heard of, and to my surprise, my ds has loved all of them.

 

So here is what I do. I start by purchasing (either new or used) all the Spine books I will need for the year. I then go to my library's website and search for the books only used for 9 weeks or less. I place them in my library 'list". I also list/look for these same books at free sites like paperbackswap and put them on my paperbackswap request list. I have received many of my books this year for free from paperbackswap, and have already acquired many TOG books for future years as well.

 

If I have not already acquired a book(s) I will need from paperbackswap, then about three weeks before I will need it/them, I go to my library website, go to my previously made "list" and request the books I will need. It usually takes them two to three weeks to get my books in. If I am requesting more than one book, I will wait until they have them all in before picking them up so that they all have the same return date. I can also very easily go online and request an extension on any book I have. My library gives us two, three week extensions...meaning I can keep a book up to nine weeks.

 

So, the library works great for me. It does take a bit more work than just ordering a SL core and having all your books on-hand, but I don't feel the strain at all really as I do all my school planning over the summer. I enjoy planning, so it's actually fun for me. Now you could actually purchase all your books from TOG's bookshelf and then you'll have the same feel as you do with SL, but it will be pricey. On the other hand, if you will have younger children coming up who will use the books again, then it may be worth the cost to own them. I only have the one child left to school, but if he had younger siblings, I would purchase all his books to use them for later. Make sense?

 

Let me know if you have further questions. :D

Thank you for that in depth reply. I love the planning part too. I am a teacher at heart (and a former ps teacher). Planning is something that comes naturally to me. It can also be a thorn in my side.

You say that there are pros and cons to SL for you. What are they?

And you indicated that there are things that appeal to you with both SL and TOG. Can you explain?

I own SL cores and TOG materials. But what works for us and why it works for us won't help you. :001_smile:

 

Can you explain what you like about SL and what you don't like?

Can you put your finger on what appeals to you or doesn't appeal to you about TOG?

Then I could try to center my comments on what you see rather than what I see. :001_smile:

 

Just an idea....

Janice

These are great questions. I have been thinking about this a lot. I don't have much time now. Gotta start school, ya know!:lol: I'll come back later and answer.

[SewLittleTime]

You say that there are pros and cons to SL for you. What are they?

Pros:

We have yet to find a SL book we haven't liked.

I do like the emaphasis on cultures. It has helped my kids think beyond their little world.

Cons:

My kids are too far apart in age to combine without tweaking and me spending oodles of time finding books to bring it down a level. I will eventually have to teach 3 cores. I don't have time to read that many books and do the other things that need done in life.

 

I am adding hands-on that I spend a lot of time on to find.

 

LA--I tweak the tar out it.

And you indicated that there are things that appeal to you with both SL and TOG. Can you explain?

 

What appeals to me:

SL- I admit it: I like checking boxes! There I said it!:tongue_smilie:I like having all my books on the shelf for the year. I just grab and go. It is all scheduled for me which does save me time. I have loved the missionary biographies, and so have my kids.

TOG: More choices and flexibility. Combining my kids for history on their level with out me having to reinvent the wheel. Writing seems have more direction than SL LA. Buying a year plan and reusing them again instead of buying new IGs the whole way through. Hands-on built in.

I own SL cores and TOG materials. But what works for us and why it works for us won't help you. :001_smile:

 

True, but it is helpful for me to hear why it does work for you or doesn't.

Can you explain what you like about SL and what you don't like?

Can you put your finger on what appeals to you or doesn't appeal to you about TOG?

Then I could try to center my comments on what you see rather than what I see. :001_smile:

I really want a 4 year cycle. Overall, I'm not crazy about the cramming world history in 2 years for cores 6 & 7. That just seems like a lot to cram in. I do want my kids reading good literature. My oldest especially is a bookworm.

[abrightmom]

:bigear: I love how Janice thinks. She has such wisdom to share. :bigear: Can't wait to her how she responds.

[Janice in NJ]

Pros:

We have yet to find a SL book we haven't liked.

I do like the emaphasis on cultures. It has helped my kids think beyond their little world.

Agreed. Great choices.

 

Cons:

My kids are too far apart in age to combine without tweaking and me spending oodles of time finding books to bring it down a level. I will eventually have to teach 3 cores. I don't have time to read that many books and do the other things that need done in life.

 

Yes again. Our experience was similar. Actually the biggest problem with multiple levels for me wasn't finding materials. Even reading them is do-able. Developing age-appropriate learning objectives and then having the time to follow through to make sure those objectives were met - THAT became impossible.

 

I am adding hands-on that I spend a lot of time on to find.

Agreed. SL doesn't offer options for hands-on. Hands-on projects are time consuming enough without spending time trying to find projects that fit topics.

 

 

LA--I tweak the tar out it.

The nature of SL's language arts appealed to me, but in the end I discovered that it wasn't what I really wanted all along.

 

What appeals to me:

SL- I admit it: I like checking boxes! There I said it!:tongue_smilie:I like having all my books on the shelf for the year. I just grab and go. It is all scheduled for me which does save me time. I have loved the missionary biographies, and so have my kids.

Box checking? Oh. My. Yes! Love it too.

 

TOG: More choices and flexibility. Combining my kids for history on their level with out me having to reinvent the wheel. Writing seems have more direction than SL LA. Buying a year plan and reusing them again instead of buying new IGs the whole way through. Hands-on built in.

As I indicated above, we moved over to a TOG driven program because SL's boxes eventually ended up being the wrong boxes for us.

Yes, the scope and sequence of the writing program for TOG is very easy to see at-a-glance.

 

True, but it is helpful for me to hear why it does work for you or doesn't.

Can you explain what you like about SL and what you don't like?

 

I really want a 4 year cycle. Overall, I'm not crazy about the cramming world history in 2 years for cores 6 & 7. That just seems like a lot to cram in. I do want my kids reading good literature. My oldest especially is a bookworm.

 

It looks like we agree about a lot of the pros and cons of both programs.

 

More below.....

[Janice in NJ]

I believe that I have purchased nearly all of the SL guides over the years. We had two excellent years with the program (years 3, 4) many moons ago. TOG eventually ended up being a better fit for us long-term. I still have most of my instructor's guides. I use SL literature here and there and the guides provide me with enough info so I can have a quick-n-easy discussion about a book without reading it. (As my kids got older and moved into discussing books at a D/R level, the flap copy just wasn't sufficient. I needed a bit more detail to wing-it. A SL guide provides enough info to help me ask the next general literature-analysis questions; it doesn't provide enough for me to dig too far past the surface, but we can work through the simpler topics: setting, character, plot, theme etc. So the page or two of literature notes have a place on my shelves, but they have become less useful to me the longer I do this.

 

TOG? You've done your homework. I think you have a decent grasp of the pros/cons of the program. I would encourage you to spend the $45 and pick up a unit. Even if it doesn't work for you right now, you'll have it and can return to it as your kids get older. Sometimes I didn't see the value in something at first glance, but as I gain more teaching experience I return to it and then I think, "Oh. Now I get it." That second, third, or fourth visit brings things into sharper focus. I bring more experience to the pages and the pages make more sense.

 

I too wanted my kids to enjoy great literature. But as they moved into high school, "enjoy" took on a new meaning. I will always want them to enjoy great stories. What a delight! But the significance of the Western Canon moves beyond a nice story nicely told. Just as babies don't really come from the stork, stories are birthed because of some kind of interaction: people, events, ideas, etc. And the shadows of those interactions - or their stark, vivid faces - are embedded in the pages; they are there. And they illuminate the life of the mind in so many fascinating ways. A beautiful reflection of the human condition which is itself sometimes very difficult to even talk about with precision. Stories do that in a way that is appropriate. Complex? Yes, sometimes. But the subject matter is complex. :001_smile: So the medium fits well. I suspect that's why it has endured.

 

And the Western Canon? The stories we keep? They say a lot about those of us who try to catch the balls our writers toss. Even that dance deserves some of our attention at the high school level. Many people have commented that the TOG literature program is too much for high school; they argue that it is better suited to college-level students. Maybe. But I honestly found that for our family, SL didn't do enough at the high school level. Even if my kids decide that they don't want to devote their life's-work to the world of ideas, they need a general sense of what it looks like, what it is like to be there, and how being there begins to shape you as a person. It's a real place, and bumping around there definitely has an effect on you. Sometimes it seems vastly unsettling, but in the end it is immensely rewarding even if you still haven't spent enough time there to even explain why. (Understanding? Hmmm.... connections made even if rhetoric is never achieved.)

 

My oldest will not be a lit major in college. He likes reading. He likes literature. He probably would have loved using SL all through high school. (Sorry, son. You ended up with me for a momma. :001_smile:) While I don't expect all of my kids to get everything that a Great Books education offers, I want them to KNOW that those worlds exist. And I want them to be familiar with the tools that are used to explore those worlds. It's really not that complicated. A lot of hard work? Yes. But do-able on some level even if you only want to bump around in there on your spare time.

 

Personally? SL left me wondering what I was doing wrong. I couldn't use a SL guide to go where I wanted to go. TOG opened doors and showed me where to go. Once the doors were opened, I was left to do the walking - certainly! TOG is not open and go. I do use TOG guides to organize our education though. Sometimes I use a week-plan as written - same books, questions, topics, discussions; sometimes I use it as a starting point - same topics and objectives, different books, different assignments; and sometimes I use something else - different objectives for the week. No matter how the weeks proceed, the TOG week-plans are a wealth of information and teaching tools for us and for me. TONS of pick-up-and-go options that I can use to educate. So there are boxes with TOG; they are just different KINDS of boxes - lists of options. I have to choose the ones that my kids will transfer to their planners. In the beginning that's hard to do. Choosing is hard. In the end, I've gained the skills that I need to choose well for this group. I can confidently say that I'm educating instead of doing school. Every week? NO! We have bad weeks, but the overall trajectory is solid!

 

I'm SURE that there are folks who are educating with SL. I've revisited those guides - the idea of the boxes always entices, especially when life gets really, really busy and I'm looks for ways to save time which happens often! The ideas are there. I've learned a lot, so I can see a bit more of the progression. I can see how you could use the guide to have a great discussion about the book, generate a great writing assignment, etc. The bones are there for me, and I can see the flesh. For example: even the core 7 program doesn't have history questions for the student. There are bullet points about the topics covered in the reading, so I can see how an educated adult could mentor a child through a great discussion using those lists. The geography locations and the timeline points so naturally bubble to the surface. The list goes on.....

 

However, if I were going to take a SL guide and use it to educate the way I educate, I would take it, and I would immediately start turning it INTO a TOG week-plan without even realizing it.

 

1. I would need to read background about the topics listed. Sure, I could just read the child's book. However children's history leaves out a lot. And for good reason - some of it leaves me with a sour stomach. Kids don't need to be bothered with a lot of THAT in order to walk away with what they need at the time. But I can't bury my head in the sand if I am going to mentor; I need it - even if I don't want it. Honestly? I LOVE World Book Encyclopedia. Well written articles by smart folk who know what they are talking about when it comes to connections and implications. So I would explore more than one source in order to understand a topic anyway. TOG collects all of that for me.

 

2. Then I would have to sit and think about my kids' reading assignments. What are the main ideas here? Supporting points? (Think WTM outlining skills in logic-stage.) Unearthing a position and identifying the support structure of an argument is something an educated adult does without thinking; it's how he reads. My kids needed to learn how to do that; we're still at it. TOG has gone to the trouble of taking the reading, shuffling it around to sift out the main ideas, and then analyzing the author's way of supporting his ideas. THEN they put together a list of questions that model that process. 1. What to look for first, second, third, etc. AND the week-plans progress as you move through the level. Some of those first and second questions start to slide out; there's more focus on the third, fourth, fifth level conclusions. EVEN if we don't agree with the conclusions, the week-plan is still incredibly useful. That process of understanding someone else's position and then interacting with it is immensely useful. So I want my kids to read and then interact with their reading BEFORE they come to me to interact with the ideas. Setting up other curriculums so they follow that model takes a TON of time. TOG has done it for me for about five bucks a week. EVEN if we don't use the book redesign suggests, the issues surrounding the topic are handled in other texts. They are the big rocks. So other texts still focus on them. So I can easily slide books in and out. (But I've been at this for a while and I love exploring history on my own. TOG was one of my sets of training wheels though; I highly recommend it.)

 

EVEN MORE below.... sheesh! (sorry)

Edited May 7, 2010 by Janice in NJ

[Janice in NJ]

3. Then I would have to put together a discussion outline. The TOG outline saves me a TON of time. I print and scribble on it to my heart’s content. Sometimes by the time I finish, I don’t even need the paper any more. The points that I want to cover bubble up. Now I can have the discussion anywhere. “Go get your notes and meet me in the bathroom. I’m going to scrub the tub but we can do this while I work.” An hour later we emerge both dizzy from the bleach and the exploration of life’s edges that we thought we understood.

 

4. And there are so many other helpful parts. A list of the Threads for the year help me see our trajectory. Those D level literature worksheets are a terrific starting point for ALL of the jr. high level literary analysis papers. (Really! I sat with TWTM list of literature questions, listened to Susan’s lecture on literary analysis, went back to the list, and then flipped through the Y4 discussion scripts for D level. All of the bones are there. Read. Discuss. Model a process - a way of thinking about some aspect of a novel. And then write. All of the data is there on those simple worksheets. Nearly every single one is the starting point of a terrific junior high-level paper. Provide a quote from the book that supports your statement? Page numbers are available in the teacher’s notes. Viola! A huge amount of the work already done for me. All I have to do is teach it. Now THERE’S a box to check! *grin*) The R level lit is very good too. TONS of options there - to educate all levels of high school.

 

5. And finally - even that LAST page “At a glance” is VERY helpful. A quick, simple list of things that I may/may not want to discuss with my kids. It takes me about two seconds to locate them in our books. Sometimes we have had the BEST conversations surrounding them. Life stuff - things that I might forget to talk about if I wasn’t reminded.

 

So the biggest advantage of TOG over SL for me can only be discovered with a bit of reverse engineering. Taking a TOG week and breaking it down into daily assignments takes me about 3-4 mintues per kid. The reverse? Hours!

 

I’m overseeing three kids this year (7th, 9th, and 11th grade). Our homeschool is strong in the humanities, but I actually care more about math and the sciences. Two of my kids are heavily involved in music. So we’re stepping. TOG’s approach saves me a TON of time. A TON! But it requires a lot of time too. It goes in the direction that I want to go in, so it’s worth it for our family. If you aren’t looking to go in that direction, I suspect that it would be incredibly cumbersome.

 

If you are curious, and you have done your homework and maintained your curiosity, I would encourage you to pick up a unit of TOG. Either way you will know for sure if it does what you need it to do.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited May 7, 2010 by Janice in NJ

[SewLittleTime]

Whew, Janice! :D That is a lot of meat to chew on! I appreciate you giving me your thoughts and sharing in such a detailed response your experiences. I am still intrigued with TOG. Yes, I have done my homework. Dh says I should set up a consulting business for new homeschoolers b/c I do so much homework on KNOWING a product. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm going to think through what you've written. I've printed it out. I'm going to discuss with dh, make some more notes, look at my goals for next year, and our long term goals again.

[momee]

Hi gals,

what a tough decision to make. I totally understand all the talk/gathering of info. The rubber meets the road as to how well/long you can do all the aforementioned work that goes with it.

I don't know for sure, but I don't remember Janice having younger children. They add a whole new dimension to your day.

 

I found I was not! having time to do things in the caring for my home that needed to be done because I was learning history and lit at a college level :).

Don't get me wrong. I do a good job teaching my children and I put alot into it. I don't - however - at this stage of life have time to be learning like this right beside them.

 

The book gathering on top of the worksheet printing and the discussions alone! were doing me in. Then I still had the normal teaching day to pursue.

With SL we may be doing LESS written, but they're reading what interests them on their own (key for older kids, the interest part) and I feel it's wonderful.

 

Sometimes you really won't know until you get into it.

My comments are kinda unorganized right now. If you want more, please feel free to pm me on specifics.

Edited May 13, 2010 by momee

[Janice in NJ]

Major point! Yes! My youngest is a very motivated, academically minded 13 year-old. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm definitely not in the little-ones stage of life. My kids clean up the kitchen and can cook a meal. No one needs me during bath time. :001_smile: Everyone does their own laundry. Different stage of life - different issues, but yes! Very different from life with little, little people.

 

Thanks for bringing that up. I forget that it's important. When I speak I know who I am. However, I forget that others may not hear me through the right set of speakers. :001_smile:

 

Which might make this a good time to say that you have so many years ahead of you "SewLittle"; I believe that your sig line indicates that your oldest is around 2nd grade. Choosing one program that you can use for years may seem so crucial right now. But you have time. Tons. I love the Great Books. I love philosophy, history, literature - it's all so much fun. But I don't look back to nine years ago and wish that I had chosen ONE program that I could have stuck to. I needed to explore. I needed to wander around and waste a ton of time. Extremely inefficient. Yes! But the journey makes the person so I've learned not to sweat about it and wonder "What if????" I couldn't say for certain that I would be where I am if I had gone via a different path. And I like where I am. So I'm good. I would really encourage you to explore your options with peace. Find the choice that gives you immediate peace and then just live there for a while.

 

There is so much good to be found in so many places!

 

Peace,

Janice

Edited May 7, 2010 by Janice in NJ

[SewLittleTime]

Hi gals,

what a tough decision to make. I totally understand all the talk/gathering of info. The rubber meets the road as to how well/long you can do all the aforementioned work that goes with it.

I don't know for sure, but I don't remember Janice having younger children. They add a whole new dimension to your day.

 

I found I was not! having time to do things in the caring for my home that needed to be done because I was learning history and lit at a college level :).

Don't get me wrong. I do a good job teaching my children and I put alot into it. I don't - however - at this stage of life to be learning like this right beside them.

 

The book gathering on top of the worksheet printing and the discussions alone! were doing me in. Then I still had the normal teaching day to pursue.

With SL we may be doing LESS written, but they're reading what interests them on their own (key for older kids, the interest part) and I feel it's wonderful.

 

Sometimes you really won't know until you get into it.

My comments are kinda unorganized right now. If you want more, please feel free to pm me on specifics.

You have expressed some of my fears and issues. I do have little ones. I have laundry and dishes, soccer practices, and I do want to have time to just snuggle or play a game with them. Or SEW or KNIT b/c I love doing that!!! Your post is one to greatly consider. The stage I am in with littles is important and does greatly effect our school day. Today was the perfect example--the baby cried all morning. It sure is tough to listen to a little one read to me when she is screaming in the same room. We managed, but sheesh!!!:ack2:

Major point! Yes! My youngest is a very motivated, academically minded 13 year-old. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm definitely not in the little-ones stage of life. My kids clean up the kitchen and can cook a meal. No one needs me during bath time. :001_smile: Everyone does their own laundry. Different stage of life - different issues, but yes! Very different from life with little, little people.

 

Thanks for bringing that up. I forget that it's important. When I speak I know who I am. However, I forget that others may not hear me through the right set of speakers. :001_smile:

 

Which might make this a good time to say that you have so many years ahead of you "SewLittle"; I believe that your sig line indicates that your oldest is around 2nd grade. Choosing one program that you can use for years may seem so crucial right now. But you have time. Tons. I love the Great Books. I love philosophy, history, literature - it's all so much fun. But I don't look back to nine years ago and wish that I had chosen ONE program that I could have stuck to. I needed to explore. I needed to wander around and waste a ton of time. Extremely inefficient. Yes! But the journey makes the person so I've learned not to sweat about it and wonder "What if????" I couldn't say for certain that I would be where I am if I had gone via a different path. And I like where I am. So I'm good. I would really encourage you to explore your options with peace. Find the choice that gives you immediate peace and then just live there for a while.

 

There is so much good to be found in so many places!

 

Peace,

Janice

Homeschooling has been a journey for me as well. I am already so changed by the experience. I am enjoying the journey and looking forward to seeing where I am in 10 years from now. I'm not making any decisions right now....doing a lot of thinking.

 

I need to update my siggy too!!

[bcanode]

We did SL for Pre-K through 2nd grade. I got burned out when I added my second son and was trying to do two cores. My oldest Ds, did great with most of SL. He's an avid reader and he would read all day if I let him or listen to me read for hours. My second ds, would never sit down to listen to a story. He was always asking me "how many pages do I have to listen to?" He loves to do hands-on crafts with SL has very little of.

 

I switched to TOG and love it. There are plenty of books to keep the oldest one happy, although he usually reads all of the primary books and the alternate books as well. My youngest is doing well with it to and loves the projects and the lapbooks.

 

I do occasionally pull out a SL book and add it in, especially as a read-aloud. I think SL's read-alouds are better that TOGs.

 

I use a mixture of the library and buying the books. Usually I depend on the library, but we are in a co-op with several other families and getting the books can be difficult.

 

I would give TOG a try. I love that we are all studying the same subject. It makes for great dinner discussions as we tell Dad what we learned.

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, Janice, for the "long-winded reply"-I have so many of these from you printed out from over the years!

 

I'm not trying to decided between SL and TOG, but your response reiterated my reasons for going with TOG! :)

[SewLittleTime]

We did SL for Pre-K through 2nd grade. I got burned out when I added my second son and was trying to do two cores. My oldest Ds, did great with most of SL. He's an avid reader and he would read all day if I let him or listen to me read for hours. My second ds, would never sit down to listen to a story. He was always asking me "how many pages do I have to listen to?" He loves to do hands-on crafts with SL has very little of.

 

I switched to TOG and love it. There are plenty of books to keep the oldest one happy, although he usually reads all of the primary books and the alternate books as well. My youngest is doing well with it to and loves the projects and the lapbooks.

 

I do occasionally pull out a SL book and add it in, especially as a read-aloud. I think SL's read-alouds are better that TOGs.

 

I use a mixture of the library and buying the books. Usually I depend on the library, but we are in a co-op with several other families and getting the books can be difficult.

 

I would give TOG a try. I love that we are all studying the same subject. It makes for great dinner discussions as we tell Dad what we learned.

Thank you, thank you for responding with your experiences. My oldest is also a huge reader. He often gets caught up in a book and forgets he has other things to do. Ds2 is not like that at all. He likes to be read to, but not near like his brother.

 

I was also thinking about adding some SL read alouds. I think my kids really enjoy that part of our day. Reading as a family is part our evening routine. Dad often even get sucked into our books. :lol:

 

Can I ask where you started in TOG after completing core 2? We are finishing up core 2 in the next few weeks. I am thinking of buying one TOG unit to try over the summer while we have no other subjects to worry about.

[Janice in NJ]

Tapestry of Grace is offering new teacher training videos as part of their "Virtual Homeschool Conference" page. There are two new videos mounted. One explains what to DO with all of the materials you get in a TOG year plan (Out of the Shrink Wrap) and the other explains lesson planning a la TOG (Lesson Planning 101). They are offering one of the webinars for free this month - see the promo code listed. The other would cost you $7. Just an option if your curious about how to actual turn all of those pages into boxes you can check. :001_smile:

 

Peace

Janice

 

http://lampstandpress.com/virtualconference/

[SewLittleTime]

Tapestry of Grace is offering new teacher training videos as part of their "Virtual Homeschool Conference" page. There are two new videos mounted. One explains what to DO with all of the materials you get in a TOG year plan (Out of the Shrink Wrap) and the other explains lesson planning a la TOG (Lesson Planning 101). They are offering one of the webinars for free this month - see the promo code listed. The other would cost you $7. Just an option if your curious about how to actual turn all of those pages into boxes you can check. :001_smile:

 

Peace

Janice

 

http://lampstandpress.com/virtualconference/

I am downloading Lesson Planning 101 right now. I hope to watch it later this evening! I think I am going to try a unit and see how it goes. I'm thinking I'll start with Year 2 Unit 3 since that seems to be the start of where American History begins in the cycle.

[ChemMommy]

We used SL cores K-5 and I bailed at the point of doing two cores at the same time (three would terrify me!!). We managed one year of core K and 5. I did a ton of tweaking to try to keep the kids together (roughly), but combining core 1/6 (and all of the tweaking that would take) plus doing one high school core seemed like more trouble than it was worth.

 

The high school cores did not seem as well-thought out as TOG levels do. SL seemed to grow into its high school program out of the needs that its users. Thus, there is a 20th century core, a British Lit mini-core, a government core, etc. TOG seemed to have begun with a plan (a four-year rotation through history) and made the material fit the plan. TOG also provided SUPERB teacher's notes

 

TOG does not provide a full language arts program for younger kids, so you will need to supplement that, however, I never liked SL's LA programs so I was doing that anyway.

 

I really prefer SL for the elementary level. There is a smattering of history, good books, lots of read aloud time, and a very gentle approach to learning that works beautifully. The emphasis is on fiction and good, readable, fun books.

 

I really prefer TOG for junior and senior high. The progression through history is logical and well-thought out. The support for teachers is amazing. The emphasis is on history and good literature (less just-for-fun books). My older two have learned so much in TOG.

 

Some of the SL books work for TOG and my kids still enjoying reading them, so that was not wasted money at all.

 

I do miss being able to order a core and be done with it. TOG uses more books and expects you to use the library a lot. My library doesn't have many of the books (except for the elementary level) and so I end up buying them. I marked them up with stickers for which year they correspond to (that's an SL idea).

 

TOG gives weekly plans whereas SL gives daily plans. My first TOG year, I rewrote TOG into daily lessons plans. This year, my kids said that they had no trouble reading list of assignments for the week and managing the workload themselves. (And they did a great job with it, too!). They told me that they enjoyed reading one book over a couple of days rather than the SL way of reading 10 pages per day each day of the week. Go figure!

 

Just my wandering thoughts.....Hope it helps some.

[3Rivers]

I really wanted to love TOG. I'm starting to think that there are certain kinds of brains that gel with TOG and others with SL. :tongue_smilie:

And probably several others.

My deal is that I spent so much of the time culling through the manual, the threads, the overview and I got so...bogged....down in the mire of possibilities that I hardly got anything accomplished.

 

Time after time I would see in one section that we were to do a project of some kind, let's say a poster of cooking in colonial times so I would get caught up in how to do that in the midst of dishes, laundry, haircuts, karate.....and so of course I never laid out my plan for my wonderful "Colonial cooking" display or whatever.

 

OR then I would read that we were supposed to map out where the major battles were fought for the REvolutionary war and discuss the terrain and climate and how that affected the battles....and then there would be nothing on "terrain and climate" -- how in the heck would I have time to research THAT TOO??

 

Vocabulary was a nightmare as well. I made one set of words for each child in each level and of course there were no definitions provided so THAT took hours and never did that again.

 

So we finally scaled it way down to just the basic readings and I realized that DS had only 2 pages scheduled to be read for the week! :001_huh: DD had already zoomed through her readings and was ready to finish the war while the TM was still telling me to work on our Colonial Cooking Display, which of course by now the poster board I had bought had been used to make signs for the stray dog we found so I had nothing for them to do....

...I looked elsewhere to find a map that showed Paul Revere's ride accurately so that I didn't have to scour their books for what routes he took (even though I had Map Aids and the whole kit and kaboodle)...anyway...

 

I was constantly saying "huh?":001_huh:

 

But then I read how much people love TOG so I just decided that MY brain is just not a TOG brain. Somewhere along the line I missed that bit of DNA because I just could not pull it together and I consider myself reasonably organized.

[PentecostalMom]

I'd love to hear about your experiences with both. I'm a SL'er who has jumped to TOG and back again several times. If you feel like you're hijacking, you can PM or start a s/o thread. I'm really interested in your thoughts

thanks

lisa

 

I am a current SL user, who plans to stick through the elementary years at least. I would love to hear more as well, especially before I order my next core!

[Melissa in CA]

I really wanted to love TOG. I'm starting to think that there are certain kinds of brains that gel with TOG and others with SL. :tongue_smilie:

And probably several others.

My deal is that I spent so much of the time culling through the manual, the threads, the overview and I got so...bogged....down in the mire of possibilities that I hardly got anything accomplished.

 

Time after time I would see in one section that we were to do a project of some kind, let's say a poster of cooking in colonial times so I would get caught up in how to do that in the midst of dishes, laundry, haircuts, karate.....and so of course I never laid out my plan for my wonderful "Colonial cooking" display or whatever.

 

OR then I would read that we were supposed to map out where the major battles were fought for the REvolutionary war and discuss the terrain and climate and how that affected the battles....and then there would be nothing on "terrain and climate" -- how in the heck would I have time to research THAT TOO??

 

Vocabulary was a nightmare as well. I made one set of words for each child in each level and of course there were no definitions provided so THAT took hours and never did that again.

 

So we finally scaled it way down to just the basic readings and I realized that DS had only 2 pages scheduled to be read for the week! :001_huh: DD had already zoomed through her readings and was ready to finish the war while the TM was still telling me to work on our Colonial Cooking Display, which of course by now the poster board I had bought had been used to make signs for the stray dog we found so I had nothing for them to do....

...I looked elsewhere to find a map that showed Paul Revere's ride accurately so that I didn't have to scour their books for what routes he took (even though I had Map Aids and the whole kit and kaboodle)...anyway...

 

I was constantly saying "huh?"

 

But then I read how much people love TOG so I just decided that MY brain is just not a TOG brain. Somewhere along the line I missed that bit of DNA because I just could not pull it together and I consider myself reasonably organized.

 

:lol::lol: I love TOG and have none of the issues you have mentioned, but your post made me giggle. Not at you, but with you. ;) I would have dumped TOG too!!

 

I really do think it's a matter of personality and teaching style. I have no problem at all not using TOG to it's fullest. I don't use their timeline work, their vocab, or their activities. I assign the primary and in-depth history books along with a smattering of questions from the activity pages (my choice); The mapping along with the Teacher Key; the worldview book; and the Lit book along with the Lit activity page. That's it. I keep TOG very simple. I don't force my ds to use an atlas, or some other device for completing his mapping. I allow him to use the Teacher Keys. But, he must also be able to locate everything on our wall map(s) and show it to me.

If there is a week when we don't get to our history discussion...no biggie. I can review the answers to his history questions and gage what/if he is learning. I don't sweat it.

 

The way I use TOG is in a very independent way. My ds is responsible for his learning. I don't hold his hand. During the summer I print out the maps and SAP's for each week, along with the history Q's. I highlight those I want him to answer on paper. I then put everything in a file folder labled for that week along with a blank schedule. When we start school, I pull week 1 file folder out and place it in his history workbox, along with the books he will read that week. It is HIS responsibility to schedule out his reading and have it completed by Friday. The only book we usually read together is the worldview book...mainly because I like to discuss it as we go along.:001_smile:

 

TOG can feel overwhelming and take over your life if you let it. The cure to that is...don't let it! ;):D

[Tracy]

Vocabulary was a nightmare as well. I made one set of words for each child in each level and of course there were no definitions provided so THAT took hours and never did that again.

 

 

I just bought TOG and have been preparing for next year. We are very excited about it. But I have to say that I am finding a whole lot of things like this. For example, I was considering doing the writing assignments, only to find out that I didn't understand them--and wouldn't without buying WritingAids. I was trying to figure out how to do vocabulary, and then I read in some forum somewhere that the definitions could be found in the Evaluations supplement. I wanted to do a timeline and found a reference to different dating systems without any explanation concerning those different systems or where to look to find that information.

 

Now, I am still very excited about TOG, but I can see how these issues could put someone off of TOG. You pay a lot of money, and you have these wonderful, glorious lesson plans, but there are some holes.

[jewellsmommy]

Just so you know, on the loom you can print all the definitions for all of the vocab and you can print out a guide for all of the people that you encounter in the studies as well!

 

I did this in advance of the start for this yr and put all of it in a 3 ring binder. It is great for quick review this way.

[Tracy]

Just so you know, on the loom you can print all the definitions for all of the vocab and you can print out a guide for all of the people that you encounter in the studies as well!

 

I did this in advance of the start for this yr and put all of it in a 3 ring binder. It is great for quick review this way.

Thanks, Tammy! :hurray: I will look for these.

[3Rivers]

Just so you know, on the loom you can print all the definitions for all of the vocab and you can print out a guide for all of the people that you encounter in the studies as well!

 

I did this in advance of the start for this yr and put all of it in a 3 ring binder. It is great for quick review this way.

 

HOW did I miss this? Urg. I got tangled in the threads, I guess.

[Shelly in the Country]

Just so you know, on the loom you can print all the definitions for all of the vocab and you can print out a guide for all of the people that you encounter in the studies as well!

 

I did this in advance of the start for this yr and put all of it in a 3 ring binder. It is great for quick review this way.

 

 

I think this in Evaluations, not the Loom....unless I am missing something. (which is entirely possible :tongue_smilie:) I guess I should say: I can't find it on my Loom CD, but I can find this on my Evaluations CD.

[SewLittleTime]

Just so you know, on the loom you can print all the definitions for all of the vocab and you can print out a guide for all of the people that you encounter in the studies as well!

 

I did this in advance of the start for this yr and put all of it in a 3 ring binder. It is great for quick review this way.

This is good info. Thank you for sharing before I bought and then got frazzeld.

 

Does the guide for people have pictures by chance? I thinking about our timeline books that we have started. I'd love to keep adding to them, but just trying to think through actually making it work.

[TracyP]

I think this in Evaluations, not the Loom....unless I am missing something. (which is entirely possible :tongue_smilie:) I guess I should say: I can't find it on my Loom CD, but I can find this on my Evaluations CD.

 

I have DE and it is on my DE Loom. I don't know if that helps.

[Shelly in the Country]

I have DE and it is on my DE Loom. I don't know if that helps.

 

Ok, that's it then. I don't have DE. I have the Print Redesign. :001_smile: