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TOG vs. Omnibus vs. ??? for GB


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I know this has been discussed a lot, but I'd like to come at it from what I think is a different angle or at least from the side that isn't clear to me. What are the differences in the GOALS of these curricula? Especially with how they handle GB/lit. What is VP wanting the student to take or learn or grow in through Omnibus 1, 2, 3, and 4? (I assume there are different goals or themes for each volume?) So when Omnibus tackles literature, it seems to be trying to get the student (from what I can tell, looking at O1) to ponder questions, often having to do with politics or culture. Am I missing something? Is that the jist of it? And TOG, what are it's themes or questions or goals as it tackles literature and the GB it correlates?

 

I'm trying to figure out how my dd connects to the GB. I'm realizing, after all this time of pondering and planning our sequence, I've never really understood that *she* had to have the Great Questions or be interested in them in order to connect to the GB. She's incredibly bright, a very good reader, but she's much more artsy, domestic, and a do-er. When people give outlandish examples of things no sane homeschooling mom should have to do (build a room-size map, etc.), THOSE are the things she wants to do! And she's really serious about that. We have sculpey and tents and forts and sewing and projects all over the house, my lands. She lives through her historical fiction and imaginative fiction. Ok, and she's probably dyslexic (stealth dyslexia). So there's no problem reading (except for small print, gonna get VP and eventually an ipad to help with that), but it just means her brain is so different. It makes her crazy artistic, a creator, a do-er.

 

So how do I connect that to some form of junior high and high school progression??? I'm trying to open my mind here, and I just don't know. I had assumed for years we would do Omnibus, but it seems so political. It's definitely not crafty, though I can pop that up with some hands-on books I have saved. But is there something else that would work better for her? Anybody else have a kid like this and have a clue what I'm talking about?

 

I guess that's just a shot in the dark, but there you go. If any TOG users want to chime in and can explain where TOG goes with their lit and GB, that would be terrific. Every time I've looked at it, I was looking at it functionally (what does it use, how does it schedule). It never occurred to me to ponder where it was going mentally, philosophically, spiritually, and to see if those paths would interest dd. I think what would really interest dd is to research women through history and to do themed studies each year, throwing chronology to the wind. She likes reading about how people lived, seeing how the children of famous women turned out, that type thing. She likes costumes and recreating. She likes DOING stuff (spinning, etc.). Surely there's something that will connect with her? Or does that mean she's not a GB person and I should just go a totally different path? I could, I just need to open up myself to that and breath deeply I guess, lol.

 

Any wisdom? Is it possible my sculptor/creator/do-er child is going to change in a couple years and turn into some philosophical wonder? Or is who she is who she is, meaning I need to find a sequence or curriculum (or un-curriculum) that works with her?

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Any wisdom? Is it possible my sculptor/creator/do-er child is going to change in a couple years and turn into some philosophical wonder? Or is who she is who she is, meaning I need to find a sequence or curriculum (or un-curriculum) that works with her?

 

The first thing that popped into my mind for your daughter is the original KONOS *high school* volumes. They were the inspiration for TOG... With the KONOS world history volumes, some GBs are touched on (Jessica Hulcy was an English/Lit major), and there is lots of flexibility with projects galore. With some diligent internet searching, you can find a sample week or two. Since your daughter is motivated, it just might be the ticket.

 

The second, out-of-the-ordinary choice that occurred to me is to take a look at TRISMS--it is a skeletal look at world history and cultures (wider and broader than Omnibus/TOG's western civ. focus) with suggested topics for students to research and write. I don't think it necessarily includes GBs, but a good, independent resource (like Greenleaf Press' Anc. Lit guide) might be enough.

 

But KONOS World History Vol I sounds like it might be a good match for your history-loving, hands-on daughter....

 

HTH,

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one of my ds was not a traditional learner either. I didn't understand that when he was younger when he was struggling with the traditional book learning. I wonder now if he might have been slightly dygraphic esp. since he scored relatively low on the reading portion of the ACT even though he had read adult level books for school. Now he is a studio art major and doing very, very well according to his art professors who came from highly regarded art institutes themselves. Anyway, what seemed to work ok with him was for me to keep the art projects separate from the subjects. I used various programs like Legacy of Liberty, Lightning Literature, one literature class at Scholars Online, and so forth. He seemed to like the variety of the programs from year to year even though he never did extremely well. He would do what I asked of him and nothing more then go off and do his own thing. We did a lot of the work orally and he would type other reports on the computer. As for the Great Books, I didn't attempt a lot of them with him. Instead, I followed the general outline of the literature courses at Scholars Online and used basic history books like A Patriot's History of the United States and one volume of Churchill's History of the English-Speaking Peoples. Come to think of it, Ambleside Online just might appeal to your dd. My ds also liked Legacy of Liberty pretty well and did all the work for it.

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I agree with Merry on the Ambleside idea. As you know I think TOG would be a good choice as well since the activities are planned and the books can be interchanged etc. But since she's creative on her own, another possibility for the middle school years would be Living Books Curriculum. It encourages creative activities without saying "make this..do that'. That's where I got the idea for the Leonardo book and we've done some others. There was a book we went through called Mapping a Changing World. Something like that would probably really spur her to make maps from various periods in time - how the world was thought to be then etc. They specifically choose books that will spawn that kind of creative output without requiring specific responses. It recommends narrations and in the guide I had, there were fun science activities - like growing protozoa. Of course you wouldn't have to follow it exactly but those kinds of books would probably appeal to E and her creative nature. Ambleside has less of those kinds of books but is still an approach that would allow for a variety of approaches.

 

Heather

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Vmsurbat, what amazing suggestions! Everyone has been thought provoking, but Konos, THAT had totally slipped my mind. I'm still surfing around trying to find samples of it. You're so right that it marries my dd's hands-on side with a more serious dose of history and GB. Well I'm flabbergasted, because I never thought I'd find such a thing. I have some Konos History's Heroes books from when we first got started, and she thought they were too boyish. Hopefully the high school ones aren't that way. At least the pics of the activities look really good!

 

Merry, you've given me a lot to think about there. You're right that I have not fundamentally addressed what my obligation or approach to her is in this. History is a weak point for me, so it takes a lot out of me to try to make it come alive. I've alternated between trying (and feeling guilty that I never do as much or what she wants) and ceasing to try (handing her a pile of books and telling her to go learn, lol). If I do the latter, she complains that all we do is read history, not do it. But a lot of times when I try to plan and be more fun, I flop. It's really hard to quantify, but she WANTS so much more than I can figure out. I don't even know how to explain it. She's not a wanty or discontented child in any other way, so this is weird. I think she'd like to move in with a colony of re-enactors and play history all day, lol. Right now she blathers about hush puppies, something she read about in a Kathryn Lasky book. (slaves carried them to hush the hounding animals after them with poison) She got online to email the author and verify it. What do you do with a nutty kind of child like that? LOL But I think you're right that EITHER method can work, if it's what we agree to and what fits us best. I think it's something I'm going to flat talk with her about and sort out.

 

Well thanks for all the ideas, and feel free to toss out more! I'm following up on all the leads, and I'm still interested in anyone's take on where TOG or VP Omnibus are going with their approaches. What I would PREFER is a distinctly christian, providential approach to history with the goal of gaining wisdom, a sense of the flow of things, and where we fit in it.

 

You know, all of a sudden it occurs to me that maybe instead of trying to become everything to her, what I should do is try to connect her with re-enactors or a living interp place. Then she could meet that need without me. Hmm.

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Heather, I went and looked at LLB just now. While the books look good, I'm not sure it gets me any farther than where I really am. Or rather, to use their schedule would change too much of what I'm already used to or doing myself. But it definitely is interesting. I've looked at it on and off, at least the lower grades. One year they sent me some mighty fine chocolate, which I enjoyed. :)

 

If Konos would work, that would be a DREAM. I'd probably do their HOW 1 in 7th, 2 in 8th. That would be roughly equivalent to what we would have done in Omnibus. I could add in secondary books from O1 and O2 and even pull in some of the thought process from the primary books. In her case, it might actually be a really good blend, if the activities in HOW are awesome and out of the box. The reading is certainly no problem. Well I take that back, the reading won't be a problem IF I can get the VT and get her an ipad for larger fonts. But that's pretty much on the definite list, just a matter of timing. She's totally psyched about the ipad. :)

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Hi Elizabeth!

It sounds like your daughter is a very interesting person to spend time with! I think your idea of getting her together with a group of re-enacters is a good one, especially if she is intensely interested in a certain time period (the Civil War, for example). Are there lots of homeschoolers in your area? If there are other families with very enthusiastic children, you could join forces and do active projects together. Or, perhaps she could join a 4H group that has a sewing group - that would give her an outlet for some of her skills. I think some of the things she is interested in doing sound really cool - making big maps, etc. Of course, it can be rather tiring for Mom...

 

You asked about the focus of TOG literature (I use TOG, love it; I can't speak about Omnibus) Over the course of 4 years, TOG covers many of the classic works of literature plus some other really good books. There are a couple of important goals that are achieved as you study literature with TOG. First, the student gains a great understanding of the historical context of lit and various literary movements. In addition, the student learns to analyze literature - looking at what the text actually says and seeking to appreciate the artistry and determining what the important themes are (among other things). As well, and perhaps most importantly, the student learns to examine literature in light of Biblical truth. Worldview is investigated regularly, especially in years 3 and 4. This certainly does not mean that all the works studied are Christian; some are decidedly un-Christian, but all are worth studying.

 

Really, literature studies are another way to train our children to observe closely, think deeply, and communicate clearly. I love TOG, but there are many ways to accomplish the goal! I hope that you find what will work for you for both history and literature! Remember - all literature projects don't have to be papers. Your daughter could make posters, design costumes, - whatever helps her connect with the characters and the themes of the stories.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,

April

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April--Actually, we've had a sewing class at our house this year, precisely for this reason. :) That's a really good point that she can connect to the literature with dressing up, etc.! I had only thought of it in terms of history, which of course she does quite a bit. What you're explaining about TOG makes sense. To grossly oversimplify, it sounds like what I think of as a literature class, only they're connecting it to the history. Makes sense, thanks!

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Elizabeth,

 

Just a suggestion:

 

Have you ever read Plato's Republic? I thought I "read" it in college. As it turns out I turned the pages and progressed through some sort of elementary-level dance with the words 20+ years ago. I hadn't read it. I began to read it for the first time two years ago. I'm looking forward to going through it again. Someday I hope to be able to say that I've read it.

 

If you are familiar with the work, please forgive the suggestion. You are leagues ahead of me and are well equipped to do the great books with your daughter.

 

If not, you too might be curious about Mr. Whitehead's quote regarding Plato; I know that I was. As I wandered around in that world, the Great Books seemed to always be connected to philosophy. And nearly every text that I approached referenced Whitehead's comments about Plato. It seemed like a good place to start.

 

My library possessed a ton of Teaching Company courses. They helped me get started with history. I knew that I liked them; they fit my learning style. I picked up some materials to help my ds and I get through the book.

 

Roochnik's course walked us through most of the highlights.

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=4537

 

Then we turned to a few of these lectures to explore some of the broader implications:

Dennis Dalton's Power Over People:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=443

 

Two years later, I work through portions of Robinson's lectures when I have the time or when I have a nagging question. These are taking me a long time. My data foundation isn't big enough to even listen to 30 minutes without having to look something up. Understanding takes even longer. Sometimes one idea - voiced by him in 90 seconds - has sent me off to read entire volumes before I feel like I can say, "OK. Got that." I return to the lecture, listen again from the beginning, come to the part that had me stumped, and think, "Oh my. THAT's what he meant. I had completely missed that."

 

Daniel Robinson's Philosophy Course:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=4200

 

One of the biggest things that I have learned is that reading isn't what I thought it was. (Makes me giggle actually when folks comment that media is going to replace reading in our culture.) For me, reading involves so much more than dots on a page. So it doesn't really matter how the information is conveyed. Even a You Tube clip must be "read" in order to be understood. :001_smile:

 

In a similar way, the quadrivium first appears to be a list of subjects - just as the last four words seem to be an article, a noun, a preposition, and another noun. Upon further inspection though I discover that the final two words are actually functioning as an adjective. Huh? So there is more to be "read" here than four words; they function on an internal level within their existence as a four word collection AND all four words join together to have a collective role. So have I "read" them? Maybe - it depends on how well I read. :001_smile:

 

The more I learn, the more I have discovered about the complexity of that list: arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy. There's more there than I thought. :001_smile:

 

I am trying to explore the Great Books with my kids. As you may know I use lots of materials to do that. I would encourage you to just explore some of the targets that you might be interested in hitting with your daughter and then go back and try to find programs that will handle some of the administrative steps that will help you get there. It was very hard for me to figure out my goals by wading through programs. The whole thing only started to make sense to me when I explored the targets first.

 

Just our experience.

 

Have fun finding your path!

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited by Janice in NJ
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At this link: http://www.konos-canada.com/highschool/index.php

you can find a very small sample from HOW I. Click on the link that says "4 sample pages".

 

Also, when I was first looking into it, I wrote KONOS directly and they kindly sent me some extra information....along with a sales pitch, of course. I don't have it on this computer else I would pass it on. But, it is certainly worth a try.

 

I think if I was deciding between TOG and KONOS for *just* a high schooler who was motivated by projects, I would lean heavily towards KONOS. TOG is an excellent program and while there are "hand's on" components for the upper-levels, they are primarily directed towards younger students. You would get many more choices of "projects" each week with KONOS. Plus, excellent GB studies and directed writing instruction. Of course, TOG has strengths in other areas--combining ages, reformed perspective, many more assessment tools, and just *more* of everything--history, philosophy, geography, literature.

 

Best wishes in finding the right balance,

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Vicki, thanks for that link! What I saw has my dd's name written all over it! :)

 

Janice, I think you're right, and that's the point it has taken me a long time to come to. I've watched very carefully your progress, tried to ponder that in relation to what I see other happy moms here on the board doing, and that's what I concluded, that people are happiest when they finally get the freedom to make their own path and USE the resources, rather than the materials owning them. We KNEW that with elementary, but somehow it's harder to say that for junior high and high school, as the things start getting more complex, kwim? You get intimidated. But like you're saying, I've decided I'm going to have to free myself to make those decisions and be the guide on what we want to cover and what we DON'T want to cover. Then I can pick the resources that help us do that.

 

I'm trying to use this coming year as a trial for that, a chance to loosen up, get our grounding and find ourselves, find how we like to work, rather than just plugging through curriculum.

 

Well thanks everybody. I really appreciate the help, and I appreciate you putting up with me. Sometimes it takes me a long time to GET it! :)

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We KNEW that with elementary, but somehow it's harder to say that for junior high and high school, as the things start getting more complex, kwim?

 

Yes. But in the end it's the same boldness that will get you there. I ended up just beginning; the wondering and planning just became an inefficient use of my time at this level. (This is contrary to my comfort level, but there it is. I didn't really "get" it until I plunged in and just started exploring the world of the Great Ideas on my own.) The details are ironing themselves out as we wander/trudge/march/toil/skip along.

 

You get intimidated.

 

Yes, yes! Oh, my. Yes! :001_smile:

 

But like you're saying, I've decided I'm going to have to free myself to make those decisions and be the guide on what we want to cover and what we DON'T want to cover.

 

Choosing those gaps can be a very important part of the process. Just follow your gut. The chance for error (percentage wise) might seem too high. However, I've found out that my gut is/was almost always right. Cliche and all. But I've learned to trust my gut.

 

Then I can pick the resources that help us do that.

 

As the MasterCard commercial says: priceless!

 

 

 

Have fun! It's been a grand, grand ride on our end. :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

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