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I've been scouring the net for an online/video/scripted writing or rhetoric class, and wound up on the Lost Tools site - which has always been a huge mystery to me. I have never investigated further because I figured if I couldn't understand the site, how could I ever teach from their materials??? (And, why can't they have DVD's like IEW?)

 

Today I was intrigued; just at the moment I was about to give up understanding the site once again, I read that LTOW is, in fact, a "rhetoric" course. I haven't run into any other program labelling themselves as such.

 

So...these are the things I find mysterious. If you could shed some light, please do. Also feel free to share anything else you desire (tho' I got it - it teaches kids to think as well as to write, though I didn't really find *how* it does that ;))

 

First, I am concerned that Lost Tools is not "finished". I see they have just released Part II, but I am having a difficult time judging the content. In other words, I can't really tell what is actually covered. (I guess because the website spends so much time on the Invention, Arrangement and such - and I don't know how to translate that and compare it to what is covered in other programs.)

 

Second, how long does it take to "complete" Lost Tools? It seems from their website that the first book can be pretty much covered in one year. But, is it a program like IEW, which can & should be re-done at a deeper level, or not?

 

Is Lost Tools of Writing based on the Progymnasmata? If not, does it cover the same skills? Would a progym study be redundant to a Lost Tools student, or an enhancement? (Would you do the progym or Lost Tools first?)

 

Thank you for your patience and your help!

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal

It will have a DVD set, it's just not out yet. I think the last time I asked (bugged;)) the author (who has been incredibly nice) he said it might be out around mid-May but it wasn't firm. That's all I can add to this conversation as I've been waiting until the DVD set is out to purchase it. I'll be watching this thread with you:D

:lurk5:

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This year I have used The Lost Tools of Writing in my co-op classes, and while I would not call LTOW the perfect program, teaching LTOW has revealed to me what was missing in every writing program I have used. (I have tried at least 14 different writing programs or methods over my 16 years of homeschooling.) LTOW teaches three canons of writing: Invention, Arrangement, and Elocution. Another word for Invention could be thinking. Arrangement can be called structure. Elocution can be called style. I have learned through LTOW how to address each of these areas in a natural way.

 

The weekly lessons rotate between these three canons. For the first essay, students will be taught how to address the Invention Canon by learning how to phrase a thesis. The Arrangement Canon will be addressed by teaching the student how to write an outline. The Elocution Canon will be addressed by teaching the student to move from outline to sentences and paragraphs.

 

The second essay addresses the Invention Canon by teaching the student to put their ideas in an "ANI" chart. They sort ideas by "Affirmative", "Negative", and "Interesting". The Arrangement Canon teaches the students to make the outline more complex by adding details. The Elocution Canon teaches the students the importance of parallelism in writing.

 

The third essay will expand the Invention Canon by teaching the student to ask 5 questions when making their "ANI" chart. These questions will help the students expand their ANI charts fourfold. The Arrangement Canon, again, increases the complexity of the outline. The Elocution exercises address 5 common verb errors that inhibit excellent writing.

 

The rest of the exercises progress in much the same manner. For each essay, the three canons are addressed, the complexity is increased, and the opportunity is given to practice the new skills on the next essay.The Elocution exercises are divided into three categories and includes schemes and tropes.

 

I have been teaching composition to co-op classes for four years. I was always frustrated with other programs, because I felt the emphasis was on structure and style, not ideas. I tried to get my students to think more deeply, but LTOW has taught me some effective ways to accomplish this.

 

Your first concern about LTOW not being "finished" is a valid one. I was very frustrated by this and have been leery of continuing since the publication of LTOW II was promised for almost 2 years before it was delivered. I have just recently ordered LTOW II, but even if I hadn't had the 2nd level, I have learned so much about teaching writing that LTOW I is worth the $ and time spent.

 

LTOW I can be completed in 1 year for Jr. high students. I would try to do it more quickly for students who are already adept at writing essays.

 

LTOW claims that it covers the same skills at the progym. I have seen progym exercises, but have not used all of them, so I cannot help you here. Personally, I picked LTOW over another progym program because I wanted my students to write essays and felt that skill was needed more than some of the other progym exercises. My eldest dd took 2 years of Rhetoric in high school. Many of the exercises in her Rhetoric program are similar to those in LTOW I. I'll have more of a comparison after I receive LTOW II.

 

I have the lessons on both CD and DVD, but the DVDs I ordered are not online anymore. I wonder if they are working on new ones? IMHO, the CDs were just as effective as the DVDs.

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Leanna did a good job answering your questions. I'll simply add that the progymnasmata are pre-rhetoric exercises, LToW is beginning rhetoric. Some progym is woven into LToW. The Circe forums contain some helpful posts you may want to read. I don't think anyone posts there any more though.

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Good grief! my original reply was unhelpful, to say the least. It came across as snarky, too, which was not my intention. Let me see if I can do better on a second try:

 

First, I am concerned that Lost Tools is not "finished". I see they have just released Part II, but I am having a difficult time judging the content. In other words, I can't really tell what is actually covered. (I guess because the website spends so much time on the Invention, Arrangement and such - and I don't know how to translate that and compare it to what is covered in other programs.) I see what you mean. My hope would be that there will be more work on comparison essays, since that's what my son is usually asked to do in his college writing assignments and exam responses. Part I begins looking at arrangement for comparison essays in lesson 9, but there's a lot more that could be done along those lines.

 

Second, how long does it take to "complete" Lost Tools? It seems from their website that the first book can be pretty much covered in one year. But, is it a program like IEW, which can & should be re-done at a deeper level, or not? I'd say one semester or less for an older student. Up to two years for younger students, but in either case, I'd want to move on to something else after finishing each part.

 

Is Lost Tools of Writing based on the Progymnasmata? If not, does it cover the same skills? Would a progym study be redundant to a Lost Tools student, or an enhancement? (Would you do the progym or Lost Tools first?) I see evidence of implicit instruction in progym principles but done within the context of the LT outline. For example, the progym narrative is covered in LT lesson 7, while some of the principles taught in maxim and chreia appear in LT lesson 3 on writing exordia. IMO, a student would benefit from doing some of the progymnasma individually before beginning LT, but that would be optional. For that you might want to look at Classical Composition which offers stand-alone volumes of the different exercises and is not integrated into a more extensive language arts program.

Edited by Martha in NM
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LTOW I can be completed in 1 year for Jr. high students. I would try to do it more quickly for students who are already adept at writing essays.

 

LTOW claims that it covers the same skills at the progym. I have seen progym exercises, but have not used all of them, so I cannot help you here. Personally, I picked LTOW over another progym program because I wanted my students to write essays and felt that skill was needed more than some of the other progym exercises. My eldest dd took 2 years of Rhetoric in high school. Many of the exercises in her Rhetoric program are similar to those in LTOW I. I'll have more of a comparison after I receive LTOW II.

 

I have the lessons on both CD and DVD, but the DVDs I ordered are not online anymore. I wonder if they are working on new ones? IMHO, the CDs were just as effective as the DVDs.

 

Leanna,

 

Thank you so much for breaking it down, step-by-step. May I pick your brain a bit more? (anyone else please chime in!)

 

My ds likes writing. He understands essays and has a natural voice and logic and flow, but I don't know that I would call him adept. He does actually *want* to study Rhetoric, which helps!

 

To be honest, I am seriously considering signing him up for Memoria Press's online Lost Tools class because I am taking over the accounting for my DH's business (we are homeschooling at his office), and I don't have the time/brain cells to do it all anymore! From what you've described, it sounds like Lost Tools would be a great next step after a year with IEW.

 

But, the 2009-2010 LToW Memoria Press class obviously didn't quite finish all of LToW One. So, your comment about finishing it in less than a year with a high schooler has me worried. Do you think I should look into something else? I would hate for it to be a waste of time and money.

 

ETA: I guess I should probably ask what you think would be best to use before and/or after LToW? And, did your DD by any chance take an online Rhetoric class???

 

Thanks again for all your help!

Edited by Rhondabee
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Leanna did a good job answering your questions. I'll simply add that the progymnasmata are pre-rhetoric exercises, LToW is beginning rhetoric. Some progym is woven into LToW. The Circe forums contain some helpful posts you may want to read. I don't think anyone posts there any more though.

 

Thanks, Karen!

 

I had read through that exchange before, but this time I was really struck by Andrew's mentioning that imitation is a valuable learning tool. And, that is what we have been doing with WTM methods and with IEW. Yet, now it is time to graduate beyond mere imitation! I guess everyone else is like, "Well, duh!" but I finally realized why this year of making that transition has been *so* hard and tiring.

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Good grief! my original reply was unhelpful, to say the least. It came across as snarky, too, which was not my intention. Let me see if I can do better on a second try:

 

First, I am concerned that Lost Tools is not "finished". I see they have just released Part II, but I am having a difficult time judging the content. In other words, I can't really tell what is actually covered. (I guess because the website spends so much time on the Invention, Arrangement and such - and I don't know how to translate that and compare it to what is covered in other programs.) I see what you mean. My hope would be that there will be more work on comparison essays, since that's what my son is usually asked to do in his college writing assignments and exam responses. Part I begins looking at arrangement for comparison essays in lesson 9, but there's a lot more that could be done along those lines.

 

Second, how long does it take to "complete" Lost Tools? It seems from their website that the first book can be pretty much covered in one year. But, is it a program like IEW, which can & should be re-done at a deeper level, or not? I'd say one semester or less for an older student. Up to two years for younger students, but in either case, I'd want to move on to something else after finishing each part.

 

Is Lost Tools of Writing based on the Progymnasmata? If not, does it cover the same skills? Would a progym study be redundant to a Lost Tools student, or an enhancement? (Would you do the progym or Lost Tools first?) I see evidence of implicit instruction in progym principles but done within the context of the LT outline. For example, the progym narrative is covered in LT lesson 7, while some of the principles taught in maxim and chreia appear in LT lesson 3 on writing exordia. IMO, a student would benefit from doing some of the progymnasma individually before beginning LT, but that would be optional. For that you might want to look at Classical Composition which offers stand-alone volumes of the different exercises and is not integrated into a more extensive language arts program.

 

I thought your original post was along the lines of "Don't give up!" - not snarky, by any means!

 

But, I am curious.

 

Both you and the previous poster have mentioned that Lost Tools One shouldn't really take a high schooler an entire year to finish. That leaves me with the feeling that signing up for a class that didn't finish the entire thing last year is not the best route for a 10th grader. I am thinking about calling Memoria Press this week and asking about this.

 

So - just your opinion - Would it be better/wiser for us to do IEW's Progym in 10th, then Lost Tools 1 and 2 on our own?

 

I'm thinking ( you know - in all my vast wisdom accumulated in the last 24 hours - LOL!) that would give me a year of a scripted program that would introduce me to the Progym without overwhelming me. (I have both the Corbett and the D'Angelo here and without someone else's lesson plans - it ain't happening.) Then, over next summer, I could become familiar with LToW perhaps a little more easily than this summer (while I am still trying to learn an entire accounting program and deal with my mother-in-law who is either on too much medication or becoming senile - hence the reason I am taking over the accounting ;) - and trying to plan Medieval/Renaissance Lit - yuck!!!)

 

I do have the first level of Classical Composition here, and I am afraid - being the box-checker that I am - that I would do it too slowly to get to the Lost Tools - at least with this child!

 

ETA: I just realized that if I do the IEW Progym, followed by Lost Tools 1 and 2, I could probably have my 7th grader tag-along. But, please be honest if that's not a good plan! Don't worry about hurting my feelings!! - - I had also thought that maybe if oldest DS went ahead and started with LToW (even with Memoria Press at a slower-than-recommended-pace), then maybe going thru' *that* with him would help me understand the Corbett/D'Angelo for his senior year - *or* I could have him go through Memoria Press's Rhetoric in 12th grade. (Ah...too many possibilities!!!)

Edited by Rhondabee
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I'm interested, but it's so expensive!!!

 

:001_huh:

 

Wow - I guess at some point I quit caring about price because I know I'm gonna buy what I need to make this happen. I honestly have NO IDEA how much LToW by itself or the online class thru Memoria Press costs!!!

 

And, we're not rich, I promise! In fact, we had to sell a vehicle last year to make up for all the weeks we didn't get paid.

 

But, really, this is like milk or bread. I gotta have it. It doesn't matter what it costs - I'll find a way to buy it!

 

This is just my day for personal revelations, I guess....

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Thank you! I always worry about coming across as being too glib. It's one thing to write about home schooling after the fact, and quite another to be thrashing out these issues while teaching and attempting something resembling a life. Things are even more difficult when you're juggling elder care issues.

 

For a 10th grader, I'd definitely want to finish part 1 of LT in a year. And, I'd forgotten about IEW's progym volume. I haven't seen it, but only because there was no way I could justify buying it. My son was almost finished with hs when I first read about it. In case you're wondering I was a certified curriculum junkie and still not completely in remission even though my only student graduated last spring.

 

I think your idea of using the IEW and finishing with LT 1 & 2 is an excellent idea, because I've found allowing younger students tag along to be a good thing. We've done writing alone and in co-ops, and there's a lot to be gained by having several people participate in discussion even if the students aren't the same age.

 

Your oldest student might be able to do an abbreviated Memoria Press Rhetoric course along with LT. The entire course has several threads, but you could pull out only the lessons on reading Rhetoric and discussing/writing about it by means of the questions provided. He might even be able to do the entire course along with LT (We combined Classical Rhetoric with Aristotle and Classical Writing--I tweaked the suggested writing assignments for CRwA.)

 

The biggest problem I see of having a younger student tag along is that you are going to need to find something more to use between finishing LT-2 and graduation. Maybe there will be more LT by then?

 

Also you mentioned lit. One of the benefits I see of using the classical paradigm for teaching writing is that the skills carry over into reading comprehension and analysis. So for the not inconsiderable investment of time required for teaching classical composition, you get far more than just basic how to write a __________type of essay.

 

I believe I mentioned earlier that I used LT to help my son improve his invention skills. We ended up taking a full year to do LT, but I interspersed each LT lesson set with what I called "application" essays which were assigned (by me) on issues suggested by what he was reading that year in history (Clarence Carson's history series) or Jane Austen's novels for lit. If I were doing it now, I'd be better able to take him through LT in the fall semester and then practice all application essays in the spring. I was so busy that last year, though, that I needed the time he was writing application essays to figure out the next LT lesson. :tongue_smilie:

 

From what I've seen of college requirements for my son (community college) is that it's assumed that students doing college level work are ready for writing that goes beyond a basic persuasive essay. Most of the work my son has been asked to do involves comparison of two or more things, ideas, etc., as well as argumentative/analytical essays. My son tells me that the time he spent on the progym, logic, and rhetoric have helped him.

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Thank you, Martha - and everyone else! There's no place like the WTM Board!!!

 

You've given me so much knowledge in such a short amount of time. Wishing I could send you all chocolates & flowers.

 

Hope you each have a blessed week!!

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I believe I mentioned earlier that I used LT to help my son improve his invention skills. We ended up taking a full year to do LT, but I interspersed each LT lesson set with what I called "application" essays which were assigned (by me) on issues suggested by what he was reading that year in history (Clarence Carson's history series) or Jane Austen's novels for lit. If I were doing it now, I'd be better able to take him through LT in the fall semester and then practice all application essays in the spring. I was so busy that last year, though, that I needed the time he was writing application essays to figure out the next LT lesson. :tongue_smilie:

 

I think this is a great idea. You could do LTOW with both sons at the same time and require additional work from your 10th grader. I did LTOW 1 with a 6-8th grade class this year at co-op. It's a great fit for that age. Personally, I would pick either LTOW or IEW. Doing both is overkill and you will be overlapping a lot of work.

 

 

From what I've seen of college requirements for my son (community college) is that it's assumed that students doing college level work are ready for writing that goes beyond a basic persuasive essay. Most of the work my son has been asked to do involves comparison of two or more things, ideas, etc., as well as argumentative/analytical essays. My son tells me that the time he spent on the progym, logic, and rhetoric have helped him.

:iagree: my dd, who is just finishing her sophomore year at a university, says the same thing. In freshmen year, she came home to get her Rhetoric notebook after the first 2 weeks of school.

 

FWIW- you have a lot of stresses right now. :grouphug: I would just like to say that for my eldest dd, both 8th and 10th grades were dismal failures for us. We accomplished very little. I had a baby when she was in the 8th grade and a major illness in the 10th. One or two years of less rigorous writing requirements did not derail her academic career. By God's grace, she's thriving in advanced composition classes at college. Tthe main goal for next year may be merely to simplify. Pick one writing program that you think is manageable and do it with your children. If that means the online LTOW class, then do it. Your ds will benefit even if he could go through the program more quickly on his own.

 

Why can't I figure out how to split quotes like everyone else?!:tongue_smilie:

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My eldest dd took 2 years of Rhetoric in high school. Many of the exercises in her Rhetoric program are similar to those in LTOW I. I'll have more of a comparison after I receive LTOW II.

 

.

 

Leanna,

May I ask which rhetoric program you used with your dd?

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Leanna,

May I ask which rhetoric program you used with your dd?

 

My daughter's rhetoric teacher wrote her own rhetoric program. This teacher taught for several years in a local program for homeschooled high schoolers. Dd just got home from college this weekend, and I plan to sit down and analyze her rhetoric notebook. I want to compare the contents with the others programs I've seen. I'll post my observations when I do.

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Rhondabee, I'd be delighted to accept virtual chocolate and flowers. :D

 

Leanna, I'll be watching for you to post your observations on rhetoric.

 

One other note about college writing. My son was able to skip the first college level English class enroll in what's normally taken in the second term (argumentative and analytical writing). The instructor divided the course into several mini-units, one of which was discovering and describing an author's rhetorical appeal. Then, for the final, students had to turn in a revision of an earlier paper at the beginning of the session, and then sit down and write a defense (using rhetorical terms) of the changes they made. Ds was teetering between an A and B going into the final; his defense gave him the A he wanted.

 

Even so, we did not do as much formal rhetoric as I'd hoped. I know you have a lot of stresses just now. My advice from having btdt is that it's a mistake to stress about what's not getting done. Just focus on doing well what is within your reach. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the results. And, for anyone reading this who's teaching a young pencil phobic, resistant, reluctant or unenthusiastic writer don't despair. My son went through each of those stages before he finally reached a point where he took pride in writing a decent paper.

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Personally, I would pick either LTOW or IEW. Doing both is overkill and you will be overlapping a lot of work.

 

 

 

 

Leanna, anyone?

 

I am looking at IEW right now for dd, going into 11th grade. What ARE the differences (and I guess similarities) of IEW and LTOW? What I am reading in this thread is what holds us up on writing, the thinking/ideas part (that may be oversimplifying it, though).

 

Does LTOW run itself? I need something to do the actual teaching of writing (because my kids are actually better at writing than I am....).

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Would someone mind explaining what subscribing is? Is it a way to keep track of threads you like?

 

Thanks!

 

Yes. if you scroll down when posting you can see additional options, including the one for subscribing.

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Yes. if you scroll down when posting you can see additional options, including the one for subscribing.

 

You can also subscribe (without posting) by scrolling to the top of the thread, and clicking on the "Thread Tools" options (at least I think it's called that - there are three darkish boxes across the top of the thread, and it's the one on the left. Boy - it's hard to describe!!!!)

 

Anyway, you get to your subscribed threads by going to your User Control Panel (I think - I have the habit of subscribing, and then never remembering to go back and re-read them!!!)

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You can also subscribe (without posting) by scrolling to the top of the thread, and clicking on the "Thread Tools" options (at least I think it's called that - there are three darkish boxes across the top of the thread, and it's the one on the left. Boy - it's hard to describe!!!!)

 

Anyway, you get to your subscribed threads by going to your User Control Panel (I think - I have the habit of subscribing, and then never remembering to go back and re-read them!!!)

 

Got it, but it said email notification. If you put no email notification, where does it go? It would be nice if it went to the same page you send and receive PMs on the forum (is that control panel?).

 

But I put instant email updates because I am interested in LTOW (or something similar). It seems that most writing programs just give you a format for each kind of paper, (that isn't hard), but not much instruction for the actual getting ideas of what to write about, researching it, and compiling those ideas into a good paper. That is what I need!

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I usually worry about jumping into a conversation like this because I'm afraid the people who have already written will be annoyed at me, but I must tell you, you've all relieved me of that fear in two ways: first, you've discussed things so graciously and humbly, and second, you know so well what you are talking about!

 

I can tell that whatever decisions each of you makes, they'll be the right ones because your hearts are set on your children, and I sing your praises for that in this dark age of family life.

 

Let me see if I can add any helpful thoughts.

 

First, perhaps I should address the very legitimate concerns about the program not being finished. It's true. It's not done. In fact, it probably never will be. Not because we won't have materials that will cover all the years from middle school to high school, but because there will always be something to add. For example, right now I'm laying out basic plans for level III. It will include materials on the craft of poetry writing. Can you ever finish that? :)

 

More immediately, in level II we have added some more material on comparison essays. I agree that these are common in college, so students need to learn how write them well. By the time they've been through LTW, they'll have learned multiple models of arrangement for comparison.

 

In addition, Level II adds a four lesson study on story-telling (narrative), which will help any student write stories better and will also help them read any narrative literature better.

 

I don't mean to turn this into an ad, so I won't itemize the other things in Level II, but you should know that it takes the foundations laid in level I and builds a number of different edifices on them. You might say it pushes the boundaries established in level I.

 

As for the pace of instruction: this will depend entirely on your resources, especially time. LTW was developed initially in the context of teaching classical rhetoric in a home school co-op (it took over ten years!), so it is nothing if not adaptable. LTW is about teaching and applying ideas, not duplicating processes, so it is very flexible. Once you understand the idea (and our primary goal is that you as teacher and your child as student will understand the ideas), you can apply them in multiple contexts and situations.

 

Camille Goldston teaches the Memoria Press LTW class and Matin Cothran has told me that it has been received very well. She is a CiRCE certified master teacher of LTW, having completed a three year apprenticeship on both classical teaching and classical rhetoric. I can't recommend her highly enough!

 

LTW is not, as I think Leanna pointed out, a perfect program. However, we earnestly crave specific feedback and act on everything we possibly can. As more people hear about it and fall in love with it we are able to direct more and more resources into perfecting it.

 

What people continually tell me is that it is the only program that teaches Invention/discovery as a part of the writing process. Every decision requires thinking, so we constantly put kids in situations where they need to think. Thus they might write an essay on whether Brutus should have killed Julius Caesar or whether Edmund should have followed the white witch or whether Washington should have crossed the Deleware. To answer their questions, they will need tools. So we give them those tools (they've been lost, you see:001_smile:). They are called the "topics of invention" and they are among the most powerful thinking tools ever discovered.

 

In addition, students need continually to decide what to include in their essays and what not to exclude, what to write about, how to express themselves. In every case, the approach of LTW is to identify the inevitable decisions that writers need to make and then give them tools by which they can make intelligent decisions and apply them to their writing.

 

This has become much too long, so I'll stop here, with a final summary and amplification.

 

LTW is not a perfect program, but we guarantee that it will teach your children to think better, to organize their thoughts better, and to express themselves better, while enabling the teacher to teach better as well. We want parents to be able to teach from a state of rest.

 

IEW is another excellent program and if you selected it instead of LTW you would still bless your children. I know less about the other programs mentioned, but as I believe the parent is the teacher and the curriculum is only a tool I have no doubt that your devotion and commitment to your children will overcome all the limitations embodied in any program.

 

One last word: take your time! Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and supplication, let your requests be made known to God!!!

 

If I can be any use to any of you, please ask anything you want to ask.

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Leanna, anyone?

 

I am looking at IEW right now for dd, going into 11th grade. What ARE the differences (and I guess similarities) of IEW and LTOW? What I am reading in this thread is what holds us up on writing, the thinking/ideas part (that may be oversimplifying it, though).

 

Does LTOW run itself? I need something to do the actual teaching of writing (because my kids are actually better at writing than I am....).

 

I'm not competent to compare LT with IEW, but...

 

My take on the last question is this: if your students are better writers than you; it must mean they had a good teacher. However, the heart of LT is the guided discussion. The module guides give you excellent models on how to structure the discussion. What you will contribute is a more mature outlook on some of the questions that will come up in the course of discussion. I was pleased at how much good discussion LT promoted, because I had feared at first that the scripted nature of the module guides might be too confining. I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread that there are now dvds available as well. We had cds with our package, and my son listened to and enjoyed them.

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I'm not competent to compare LT with IEW, but...

 

My take on the last question is this: if your students are better writers than you; it must mean they had a good teacher. However, the heart of LT is the guided discussion. The module guides give you excellent models on how to structure the discussion. What you will contribute is a more mature outlook on some of the questions that will come up in the course of discussion. I was pleased at how much good discussion LT promoted, because I had feared at first that the scripted nature of the module guides might be too confining. I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread that there are now dvds available as well. We had cds with our package, and my son listened to and enjoyed them.

 

Gee, thanks about the good teacher part, but it seems that my part was to "hold the gun to their head!" LOL They are creative, and the deadlines squeezed it out of them. But I have found pretty good curriculum to teach them. Pretty good..... But when they (now one, one is graduated) need help with how to form the thesis (and is it a good thesis?), what do they put in the paper (and what to leave out), how do they come up with that and compile it in the paper, ugh! It seems that if there are real ideas floating around, then something can come from that. (And if I am the one coming up with these ideas, it is sad, unfortunately, I didn't do anything like this in school). After all, the paper is compiling your ideas about a subject, right? Does LTOW help with that?

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Mr. Kern,

 

Thank you for your contribution! You walked the line between contributing and advertising very well!!! Your post was very helpful.

 

Leann,

Thank you so much for your discussion of LTW! I feel like I have more of a handle on it. Are you familiar with Michael Clay Thompson materials? If so, what do you think of combining that with LTW? Someone has mentioned doing that and that thought is buzzing in my head for the future. For others that may be reading, I am wondering if LTW would fit in just before Essay Voyage. There seems to be a large leap from Paragraph Town to Essay Voyage.

 

Capt_Uhura

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I usually worry about jumping into a conversation like this because I'm afraid the people who have already written will be annoyed at me, but I must tell you, you've all relieved me of that fear in two ways: first, you've discussed things so graciously and humbly, and second, you know so well what you are talking about!

 

Thank you for joining the conversation! I have no immediate personal need to know what's in part 2 now that my son has moved on, but was curious even so. I do like the idea of developing multiple arrangements for comparison essays. And, I'm looking forward to seeing how far you eventually plan to take high school students. Thank you for taking on such a difficult project, and thank you too for all the encouragement offered from you and the others at CIRCE. --Martha

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I don't mean to turn this into an ad,

 

 

In addition, students need continually to decide what to include in their essays and what not to exclude, what to write about, how to express themselves. In every case, the approach of LTW is to identify the inevitable decisions that writers need to make and then give them tools by which they can make intelligent decisions and apply them to their writing.

 

 

 

Andrew,

Thank you for your post. It will take awhile to digest it! But I really appreciate you taking the time to write about it. Instinctively I think I know what I need to get for writing, I'm trying to see if this will suit our needs. (I don't think people will mind you expanding on what is in both level 1 and 2!!). The things I need to know are how "complete" is the program, by that I mean can my daughter take it and use it fairly independently. I can meet with her one to two times a week about it, but every day will hold her back. (She resists meeting w/me because it keeps her from getting her work done :) ). I see a real lack for curriculum that teaches how to think about what you have learned systematically, how to digest it, how to question it, etc. (I hope this makes sense, I am fairly new to classical education and am just using pieces of it because I only have two more years of homeschooling). I think I am starting to get a glimpse of what classical education is, it is more of an equipping the student to be able to learn what they want to pursue, and I like that. I think there is a huge lack of that in education today, and I would like to introduce my kids to that. (We are very tired of just cramming facts, tons of them, and just rearranging them on papers....). Being able to do the above should result in very good papers... Am I correct in assuming that LTOW somehow combines the learning and the writing?

 

I hope this makes sense....

Thank you!

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Gee, thanks about the good teacher part, but it seems that my part was to "hold the gun to their head!" LOL They are creative, and the deadlines squeezed it out of them. But I have found pretty good curriculum to teach them. Pretty good..... But when they (now one, one is graduated) need help with how to form the thesis (and is it a good thesis?), what do they put in the paper (and what to leave out), how do they come up with that and compile it in the paper, ugh! It seems that if there are real ideas floating around, then something can come from that. (And if I am the one coming up with these ideas, it is sad, unfortunately, I didn't do anything like this in school). After all, the paper is compiling your ideas about a subject, right? Does LTOW help with that?

 

The first lessons are about systematic instruction in all the steps needed to ask fruitful questions, and sort and select information before writing and developing a thesis.

 

Another anecdote for you is that ds' instructor last fall had a mini-unit on thesis development from which ds was excused. He was asked to move directly to writing based on the proposed thesis worksheet he turned in prior to the beginning of the unit. (He included his own version of the LT-style steps he'd internalized from the invention and arrangement worksheet in LT, and the instructor was favorably impressed.)

 

What ds' work in high school earned him was the opportunity to be evaluated on matters of style because LT had already given him such an excellent grounding in invention and arrangement. He had a number of what his instructor termed "vagaries" which he'd stubbornly resisted excising (for me). lol Oh, I know all about coercive teaching methods. I once read Samuel Johnson's discourse on when it was and was not proper to beat scholars to ds. He laughed!

Edited by Martha in NM
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Mr. Kern,

 

Thank you for your contribution! You walked the line between contributing and advertising very well!!! Your post was very helpful.

 

Leann,

Thank you so much for your discussion of LTW! I feel like I have more of a handle on it. Are you familiar with Michael Clay Thompson materials? If so, what do you think of combining that with LTW? Someone has mentioned doing that and that thought is buzzing in my head for the future. For others that may be reading, I am wondering if LTW would fit in just before Essay Voyage. There seems to be a large leap from Paragraph Town to Essay Voyage.

 

Capt_Uhura

 

This is what I am thinking about doing.

I hope someone "smart" responds to this! :)

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You can also subscribe (without posting) by scrolling to the top of the thread, and clicking on the "Thread Tools" options (at least I think it's called that - there are three darkish boxes across the top of the thread, and it's the one on the left. Boy - it's hard to describe!!!!)

 

Anyway, you get to your subscribed threads by going to your User Control Panel (I think - I have the habit of subscribing, and then never remembering to go back and re-read them!!!)

 

Thank you, I didn't know you could subscribe without posting. :lol:

 

Thank you, Mr. Kern, for posting. Your comments were most helpful.

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I think this is a great idea. You could do LTOW with both sons at the same time and require additional work from your 10th grader. I did LTOW 1 with a 6-8th grade class this year at co-op. It's a great fit for that age. Personally, I would pick either LTOW or IEW. Doing both is overkill and you will be overlapping a lot of work.

 

 

.... Tthe main goal for next year may be merely to simplify. Pick one writing program that you think is manageable and do it with your children. If that means the online LTOW class, then do it. Your ds will benefit even if he could go through the program more quickly on his own.

 

Why can't I figure out how to split quotes like everyone else?!:tongue_smilie:

 

Leanna,

 

Thank you for your patience with me! I just want to clarify that what you think would be a "great idea" is to keep the boys together for instruction?

 

(If I am mistaken, please just whack me up-side the head, and then type very slowly - LOL!)

 

I ask because I purposefully did not keep the boys together for anything this year, and it has often seemed like I do spend a lot of time repeating myself. (They are both studying Ancients, but their studies aren't coordinated. Both did IEW, but different levels.) I have already had fleeting ideas that this needs to change...

 

Anyway, the online class is for 9th and up, so that would mean we could do the IEW Progym for 7th/10th, and start LTOW in 8th/11th. Would 11th be "too old" to start Lost Tools?

 

Thank you for all your help!

Edited by Rhondabee
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Why can't I figure out how to split quotes like everyone else?!:tongue_smilie:

 

Beginning of quote: [q**te]

End of quote: [/q**te]DON'T quote this on your reply, or it will be a mess!! :)

Edited by Susan C.
it was a mess, q**te = quote
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One last word: take your time! Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and supplication, let your requests be made known to God!!!

 

If I can be any use to any of you, please ask anything you want to ask.

 

Hi, Andrew! Thank you for meeting with us here.

 

Could you confirm and/or deny if there will soon be teaching DVD's (and/or CD's) that will be directed to the student? Something along the lines of IEW's SWI-series, if you're familiar with that.

 

Trust me, the lure of a master teacher at Memoria Press is *very* strong. (They have done an excellent job blending academic excellence and grace with Latin 2 this year.) I am weighing that against the benefit of teaching both my children at once - something that teaching DVD's might enable me to pull off.

 

I suppose I should also ask while you're here: Would Lost Tools be "too young" for an 11th grader to start?

 

Thank you for your thoughts of peace and rest!

 

ETA: About "Completeness" - It sounds as if LToW might not be "complete" as in "completely finished", and yet it is "complete" in adequately preparing students for college - especially with the addition of the 2nd volume. (note: "preparing" for college, not "replacing" is my goal here!) Would that be an accurate assessment?

Edited by Rhondabee
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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Beginning of quote: [q**te]

End of quote: [/q**te]DON'T quote this on your reply, or it will be a mess!! :)

 

Just to the right of the "quote" button there is a smaller button with quote marks on it. That's the "multi-quote" button. Just click it on all the posts you want to quote (I think it turns orange) and then press the "reply" button. When the reply screen comes up it will have quotes from all the posts you pressed the "multi-quote" button on.

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Just to the right of the "quote" button there is a smaller button with quote marks on it. That's the "multi-quote" button. Just click it on all the posts you want to quote (I think it turns orange) and then press the "reply" button. When the reply screen comes up it will have quotes from all the posts you pressed the "multi-quote" button on.

 

Cheryl,

Cool! I wondered how more than one quote landed in one post. And, even though I am in SC, I am from So. Cal.! So, I'm SC from SC in SC, LOL!

 

Thanks!

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Cheryl,

Cool! I wondered how more than one quote landed in one post. And, even though I am in SC, I am from So. Cal.! So, I'm SC from SC in SC, LOL!

 

Thanks!

:lol: I'd love to be Cheryl formerly in SoCal;)

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Leann,

Thank you so much for your discussion of LTW! I feel like I have more of a handle on it. Are you familiar with Michael Clay Thompson materials? If so, what do you think of combining that with LTW? Someone has mentioned doing that and that thought is buzzing in my head for the future. For others that may be reading, I am wondering if LTW would fit in just before Essay Voyage. There seems to be a large leap from Paragraph Town to Essay Voyage.

 

Capt_Uhura

 

I am familiar with Essay Voyage and I have the next level of MCT's writing program. I think EV is excellent. If I did not feel like I would be putting too much of a financial burden on my co-op families, I would love to use EV and LTOW I concurrently. I think EV's explanations about the purpose of writing, the purpose of an introduction, etc. is great information for my students to read. I would probably still let LTOW steer my classroom, but I would love for all of my students to have EV on their shelves so we could explore the proper chapters when appropriate.

 

I also like MCT's high school program. He emphasizes the MLA format and stresses teaching students to cite sources. I plan to use his CD of comments to grade my students' papers next year.

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Just to the right of the "quote" button there is a smaller button with quote marks on it. That's the "multi-quote" button. Just click it on all the posts you want to quote (I think it turns orange) and then press the "reply" button. When the reply screen comes up it will have quotes from all the posts you pressed the "multi-quote" button on.

 

Thank you Cheryl! My ds is always telling me the solutions to my computer problems are usually VERY obvious. :D

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Rhondabee,

 

LTW teaches students to think of something to say. In the process, it teaches them to think. Period.

 

That's the difference between LTW and most other writing classes. LTW teaches the canon of "Invention" (or Discovery). That's where it teaches students how to think of something to say for their papers. Other programs just teach the second and third canons of organizing and style (Arrangement and Elocution, as LTW calls them).

 

All writing programs use imitation. This one (LTW) teaches the student to imitate the thought process of a good writer, not just a good outline, or good metaphors, etc. It does teach those things too. But it's different from the rest because it teaches students how to come up with something to say.

 

Hope that helps!

chg

P.S. I also recommend the LTW yahoo group for good LTW answers! =)

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I just went to the website - it looks like level 1 is for 9th grade and up? Is that true? Dd is in 7th and I'm wondering if we could use it? We've never used IEW, but do writing WTM way. This year dd was in a composition essay class (1st semester) and creative writing class (2nd semester). I wonder if anyone could tell me if dd would be able to use it in 7th or should we try IEW in 7th & 8th then onto LTofW in 9th???

 

thanks so much!!!

 

Sangita

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I just went to the website - it looks like level 1 is for 9th grade and up? Is that true? Dd is in 7th and I'm wondering if we could use it? We've never used IEW, but do writing WTM way. This year dd was in a composition essay class (1st semester) and creative writing class (2nd semester). I wonder if anyone could tell me if dd would be able to use it in 7th or should we try IEW in 7th & 8th then onto LTofW in 9th???

 

thanks so much!!!

 

Sangita

 

LToW can definitely be used with a 7th grade student, I used it in a co-op a few years ago for students age 12-18. I believe some people have adapted it for even lower levels. Once you, the teacher, know how the program works you can write your own modules (lesson plans) and extend portions of the curriculum if needed.

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I just went to the website - it looks like level 1 is for 9th grade and up? Is that true? Dd is in 7th and I'm wondering if we could use it? We've never used IEW, but do writing WTM way. This year dd was in a composition essay class (1st semester) and creative writing class (2nd semester). I wonder if anyone could tell me if dd would be able to use it in 7th or should we try IEW in 7th & 8th then onto LTofW in 9th???

 

thanks so much!!!

 

Sangita

 

My LTOW level 1 Teaching Manual states that this curriculum is geared to the 7th to 9th grade student. I used it in my co-op classes this year for 6-8th graders. I think your student would be well prepared after experiencing TWTM writing methods and having the outside classes.

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Another quick question :)

 

Does LTofW require much prep? I am teaching 3 other dc... so my time unfortunately is limited... I'm hoping this is "open and go"... (I still need to look at the online sample link Karen gave)

 

Thanks again,

Sangita

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I think it would be helpful to schedule a significant block of time to read through the different parts (teacher and module guides, and cd's as well as the student workbook) to see how they work together and see if that process generates more questions before starting LT with a student. I also read through all the parts of each lesson, usually over the weekend, before starting a new lesson. I also did a quick review before each day's work, but that was only because I was very distracted by non-hs issues and having trouble keeping my focus. For me, taking time to do a fairly intense session before bringing my son into the process saved time on daily work. I'd also suggest that you ask any questions you have up-front instead of getting bogged down later in the school year.

 

HTH,

Martha

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I agree with Martha. I spent the summer before I first used the program listening to the cds, working through some lessons on my own, and listening to the cds again. I also read Corbett which, while not necessary, was helpful.

 

Is there anyone who can tell me whether it's necessary to shell out the entire $150-something for the whole package? Can you get just a teacher's manual and student workbook or something?? Does it have to be the whole affair?

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