Help me help my ds understand "carrying" in math!

[Sue G in PA]

Ds8 is in Singapore 2A and has reached the lessons on "carrying". I taught him using Singapore's illustrations in the text and thought he understood. Yesterday, he was doing the problems IN HIS HEAD...and getting them right! But, he couldn't tell me HOW he got the answers. Today, we started on a new set of problems and he was in tears! He kept saying he didn't understand! :confused: So, I got out the MUS blocks we have and taught him with those. He seemed to get it. But I'm worried. Tomorrow's lesson is adding 3, multi-digit numbers with carrying! AAAAGGGGHHHH! Can somebody please help me help this child? How do you teach carrying so that your dc gets it? Am I expecting too much? This kid will be 9 in 2 weeks. His older brother was already in Singapore 3A by that time! HELP!

[at the beach]

Since you asked, I'll answer that, frankly, depending on the child, you may be expecting too much. My daughter is severely math-challenged. TT has taught her carrying without any problem. She knows what to do with a problem now. However, she is 10.

 

There's a great math book that can help with this. It is called Teach Your Child Math by Arthur Benjamin. It's out of print but you can get a used copy or one through the library. This is a fantastic resource.

[Just Robyn]

Maybe you could take some time to really get 2 digit carrying mastered before moving to three digits? Saxon teaches it with pennies and dimes, so that's another idea that might be fun.

[HappyGrace]

See, this is one of my beefs about Singapore-here's addition with regrouping, got it? BOOM-onto the next level of it tomorrow! We constantly hit these walls with Singapore and then have to figure out how to park there for awhile and cement the topic before moving on! (Sorry, small rant there.)

 

I would park for awhile and work with manipulatives-the tens and ones blocks, if you have them. (not sure what the MUS blocks are-I'm talking about the ones that look like the illustration in Singapore.) Do all the problems with manips until he is comfortable with it. I wouldn't move on til he seems more comfortable. Try not to worry about where he is level-wise-Singapore is pretty advanced, I think.

 

My ds is like that-he can magically do it in his head but doesn't know what he did-I have learned now to show him everything with manips so he can visualize the process of what he is doing in his head.

[coffeefreak]

We used Decimal street and MUS blocks also. I would look for some free worksheets online and camp here for a day or two until he gets the basic concept. Singapore frustrated me for that reason too. There wasn't enough "review" to solidify the concepts for my math challenged dd. You might even want to get a Kumon workbook (or something like it) to give him the extra practice.

 

HTH!

Dorinda

[Sue G in PA]

Phew...it is good to know that I'm not crazy for thinking I might be expecting too much. Thanks! Okay, so we shall camp here for a while. I will pull some worksheets from the internet for extra practice and see how it goes. Thanks for the book rec...I'll look for that in the library.

[Storm Bay]

We used Decimal street and MUS blocks also. I would look for some free worksheets online and camp here for a day or two until he gets the basic concept. Singapore frustrated me for that reason too. There wasn't enough "review" to solidify the concepts for my math challenged dd. You might even want to get a Kumon workbook (or something like it) to give him the extra practice.

 

HTH!

Dorinda

 

 

This is what finally convinced dd that that she ought to do it regroup (aka borrow/carry) numbers. Prior to that she simply argued with me about it and wanted to simply add it all in her head. I'd shown her in Singapore Math and had also showed her the way I remember learning it. Several times Mr. Demme was able to convince her to do certain steps in math on video/DVD when she thought I was wrong.

[LadyBeth]

I like Singapore, but this is one problem we have had, too. If you get it, good. If not, you're struggling. :001_huh:

 

We ordered the Intensive Practice and Extra Practice workbooks. We don't use them for every lesson or concept, but when we need them we have them.

 

We got stuck on the concept that with money a whole is a hundred, but with time a whole is sixty or twelve. We just stayed for a few days, doing several pages each day until it clicked.

[MariannNOVA]

See, this is one of my beefs about Singapore-here's addition with regrouping, got it? BOOM-onto the next level of it tomorrow! We constantly hit these walls with Singapore and then have to figure out how to park there for awhile and cement the topic before moving on! (Sorry, small rant there.)

 

I would park for awhile and work with manipulatives-the tens and ones blocks, if you have them. (not sure what the MUS blocks are-I'm talking about the ones that look like the illustration in Singapore.) Do all the problems with manips until he is comfortable with it. I wouldn't move on til he seems more comfortable. Try not to worry about where he is level-wise-Singapore is pretty advanced, I think.

 

My ds is like that-he can magically do it in his head but doesn't know what he did-I have learned now to show him everything with manips so he can visualize the process of what he is doing in his head.

 

We used Decimal street and MUS blocks also. I would look for some free worksheets online and camp here for a day or two until he gets the basic concept. Singapore frustrated me for that reason too. There wasn't enough "review" to solidify the concepts for my math challenged dd. You might even want to get a Kumon workbook (or something like it) to give him the extra practice.

 

HTH!

Dorinda

 

Phew...it is good to know that I'm not crazy for thinking I might be expecting too much. Thanks! Okay, so we shall camp here for a while. I will pull some worksheets from the internet for extra practice and see how it goes. Thanks for the book rec...I'll look for that in the library.

 

 

:iagree: I also found that both in the classroom and here at home, cementing 'place value' went a long way in helping to teach carrying and borrowing.

[....]

We did 2a last year and we literally spent six months on that one level. I really wanted to cement math facts and how to do computations into my 2nd grader's head. We also did the 3rd grade kumon workbook "Addition and Subtraction". We also did Singapore's Intensive Practice. It worked. My daughter was eventually able to move on and she's retained the stuff we worked so hard on last year. I would slow it down and supplement also.

[newlifemom]

Have you read Liping Ma's book? I love the way she describes it. You are not carrying. You are composing a unit of 10 or 100 or whatever. I have spent a lot of time with my 3 2nd graders and I think they have it. Of course, only time will tell. ;)

 

I also stress that when they bring a number over to the tens column or hundreds column that is isn't the digit 7. It is 70 etc. KWIM? I do this e.v.e.r.y day o.v.e.r. and o.v.e.r. it is the only way I know how. I am also having them learn from breaking down numbers like Singapore. We are switching to that next year. Thanks WTM board. :glare: :D

 

Ma was insistent that concepts are understood. I believe that kids need to memorize math facts, however they need to understand carrying and borrowing and not just memorize the algorithm. KWIM?

[MariannNOVA]

Have you read Liping Ma's book? I love the way she describes it. You are not carrying. You are composing a unit of 10 or 100 or whatever. I have spent a lot of time with my 3 2nd graders and I think they have it. Of course, only time will tell. ;)

 

I also stress that when they bring a number over to the tens column or hundreds column that is isn't the digit 7. It is 70 etc. KWIM? I do this e.v.e.r.y day o.v.e.r. and o.v.e.r. it is the only way I know how. I am also having them learn from breaking down numbers like Singapore. We are switching to that next year. Thanks WTM board. :glare: :D

 

Ma was insistent that concepts are understood. I believe that kids need to memorize math facts, however they need to understand carrying and borrowing and not just memorize the algorithm. KWIM?

 

:iagree:THIS is how I have taught it in the classroom and in the dining room:lol:. Use bunches of straws wrapped in 10s, 100s, and lone straws to be the 'ones.' If they can 'see' it, they will understand what they are being taught to do. hth

[mom2jjka]

Does he understand money? If so, show him with a place value chart and money.

 

pennies live in the 1's spot

dimes live in the 10's

dollars live in the 100's

 

"There can only be 9 pennies in the ones column.

Once you get 10 you can trade them for a dime, but it has to move over to the tens column." (And do the same with dimes and dollars)

[susankenny]

Hi,

Something they do in CLE when introducing this is to place boxes above the number where the child should carry. For example:

25

+ 25

_____

There would be a square above the first 2. This prompts the child to know they should carry a number to the box (in this case it is the number 1). With 3 digit numbers, there would simply be 2 boxes if needed. Anyway, this helped my daughter a lot, and she no longer has the boxes to prompt her and she is doing fine. Maybe you can show your son this concept & draw the boxes for him. Just a thought.

 

 

Hope this helps,

Susan

 

ETA: Another thought is to put vertical lines to create columns (ex: put a line straight down between the 2's and 5's and even into the answer space as well). There will only be room enough for one digit numbers in each column, and it will help your son remember to carry. :)

Edited April 29, 2010 by susankenny

[Dana]

See, this is one of my beefs about Singapore-here's addition with regrouping, got it? BOOM-onto the next level of it tomorrow! We constantly hit these walls with Singapore and then have to figure out how to park there for awhile and cement the topic before moving on! (Sorry, small rant there.)

 

I would park for awhile and work with manipulatives-the tens and ones blocks, if you have them. (not sure what the MUS blocks are-I'm talking about the ones that look like the illustration in Singapore.) Do all the problems with manips until he is comfortable with it. I wouldn't move on til he seems more comfortable. Try not to worry about where he is level-wise-Singapore is pretty advanced, I think.

 

My ds is like that-he can magically do it in his head but doesn't know what he did-I have learned now to show him everything with manips so he can visualize the process of what he is doing in his head.

 

:iagree:

 

We had a problem with it as well. We worked with base 10 blocks when visualizing (and discussed money). When ds would get a problem wrong, I'd have him show me with the base 10 blocks. He hated it :confused:, but it helped him see what was going on.

 

I think the inclusion of mental math techniques caused us some problems as well. Ds made some big mistakes with subtraction for a while, but I think we've got it straightened out now.

 

For the "skills" in Singapore, I have the IP, EP, and CWP books, but I still don't think that's enough practice on the "basics" (like addition/subtraction). We've got the Spectrum books and I use pages as needed (and from other workbooks) to keep practicing those topics (carrying/borrowing/multi-digit addition, multiplication facts).

 

When you hit that wall, just keep practicing. We also continued to review the addition/subtraction even when we moved on to the next topics in the text. We just also did a page of addition or subtraction problems as well.

 

Hang in there!

[ElizabethB]

Have you read Liping Ma's book? I love the way she describes it. You are not carrying. You are composing a unit of 10 or 100 or whatever. I have spent a lot of time with my 3 2nd graders and I think they have it. Of course, only time will tell. ;)

 

I also stress that when they bring a number over to the tens column or hundreds column that is isn't the digit 7. It is 70 etc. KWIM? I do this e.v.e.r.y day o.v.e.r. and o.v.e.r. it is the only way I know how. I am also having them learn from breaking down numbers like Singapore. We are switching to that next year. Thanks WTM board. :glare: :D

 

Ma was insistent that concepts are understood. I believe that kids need to memorize math facts, however they need to understand carrying and borrowing and not just memorize the algorithm. KWIM?

:iagree:

 

But, my daughter was confused at the words composing and decomposing, and she's very verbal!

 

The RS abacus finally made the light turn on, physically exchanging one ten bead for 10 one beads and vice versa was very helpful.

 

I don't really "do" RS math, too scripted for me, but I like some of their ideas and the use of the abacus.

[8filltheheart]

My kids have all learned to carry and borrow the same way.

 

Take a sheet of paper and divide it into 3 columns......100s, 10s, 1s

 

Using either cuisenaire rods or money, play a game racing up to 100 (for carrying) or down (for borrowing) by rolling a die and adding your rolls. It really helps them visualize that you cannot have more than 9 pennies in the 1s. Anything more than 9 has to be traded in for a 10, etc.

 

HTH

[A home for their hearts]

I agree that understanding of place value needs to be in place before trully understanding carrying and borrowing. My 2 olders are just now beginning to understand why we carry or borrow but they still can get hung up on it.

 

I made these place value cards to help them understand. They help you dc see place value in action. I would also stop calling it regrouping and start saying trading. I learned this in RS math and it makes so much sense. Kids understand the word trade but regrouping? What is that?

 

I'll try to come back and post so more ideas letter.

[fractalgal]

Ds8 is in Singapore 2A and has reached the lessons on "carrying". I taught him using Singapore's illustrations in the text and thought he understood. Yesterday, he was doing the problems IN HIS HEAD...and getting them right! But, he couldn't tell me HOW he got the answers. Today, we started on a new set of problems and he was in tears! He kept saying he didn't understand! :confused: So, I got out the MUS blocks we have and taught him with those. He seemed to get it. But I'm worried. Tomorrow's lesson is adding 3, multi-digit numbers with carrying! AAAAGGGGHHHH! Can somebody please help me help this child? How do you teach carrying so that your dc gets it? Am I expecting too much? This kid will be 9 in 2 weeks. His older brother was already in Singapore 3A by that time! HELP!

 

The way I taught "regrouping" when using Saxon was with using dollars. That is how the book teaches it, and we added play money dollars for manipulatives.

 

When using Singapore, I purchased a place value activity kit from Lakeshore Learning and used place value blocks and a place value mat. I bought an extra set of ones, tens, and hundred blocks to make sure we had enough for regrouping.

 

Seeing the above examples in different ways was enough to solidify the concept.

 

I would suggest writing down on the board what you are doing - for example, 10 = 10 ones, 100=10 tens. Then I would also show the steps on the board while you demonstrate it with manipulatives.

 

Good Luck. :)

[Dmmetler]

If you have base 10 blocks (or print them from online), a fun game to play is to race to the cube-roll 2 dice (to get a 2 digit number, make that cube with blocks, then add it to the blocks you already have, regroup, and state the number. See who makes it to 1000 first. I have a tutoring student this semester who is finally grasping regrouping this way.

 

You can also do this on paper or mentally without the blocks as an intermediate step.

[Sue G in PA]

Thanks everyone. Great ideas! FWIW...I do show him what we are doing with the manipulatives and show him that we are trading 10 "ones" for 1 "ten" and then putting that ten where it belongs in the tens column, etc. I like the idea of using money...seem to remember that when we did Saxon. I also have the place value "decimal street" poster we used in MUS. He cringes when we take it out, but it does show very well that more than 9 "ones" or "units" cannot fit in the ones place, etc.

[Storm Bay]

:iagree:

 

But, my daughter was confused at the words composing and decomposing, and she's very verbal!

 

The RS abacus finally made the light turn on, physically exchanging one ten bead for 10 one beads and vice versa was very helpful.

 

I don't really "do" RS math, too scripted for me, but I like some of their ideas and the use of the abacus.

 

An abacus would work, but since we had MUS and not an abacus, Decimal Street worked very well since there is only room for up to 9 in each house. I think the terms composing and decomposing would end up with a lot of bad jokes around our house ;).

[ElizabethB]

Thanks everyone. Great ideas! FWIW...I do show him what we are doing with the manipulatives and show him that we are trading 10 "ones" for 1 "ten" and then putting that ten where it belongs in the tens column, etc. I like the idea of using money...seem to remember that when we did Saxon. I also have the place value "decimal street" poster we used in MUS. He cringes when we take it out, but it does show very well that more than 9 "ones" or "units" cannot fit in the ones place, etc.

 

LOL, I was going to skip our Singapore money unit since my daughter got money much easier than regular math and we are a bit behind where I would like us to be, but she enjoyed it so much I just let her work through it faster than normal and it was a good review of borrowing and carrying to do it with money.

 

I also recently tutored a 4th grade neighbor girl who needed help with fractions and decimals, she didn't fully get it until I did some money examples.

 

They can understand when it's money!

[joyfulhomeschooler]

I really like the way rightstart teaches it. They have the kids actually use place value picture cards (hard cards with photos of blocks in thous. hund. tens. & ones) instead of numbers at first. They have to trade them with the bank when they hit more than ten... exp. If you have 12 ten picture cards you ask the bank (mom) for one hundred and you keep 2 tens. You could easily make these on your own. My son really grasped onto this quickly.