Calling all ministry wives - ordination question

[Just Me]

My husband has chosen, at this point, not to be ordained even though he is on staff at our church and is a seminary graduate. The pastor doesn't have a problem with it, as far as we know. The problem is, other men on staff who quiz him on why he won't go through with it. They tell him about the 'tax benefits', but really there is no other 'incentive' they can give him. He doesn't want to do anything unless he is called to, and nothing just for tax breaks.

 

My question is this - is there something we are missing? He doesn't need to or really want to do wedding and funerals, and we have plenty of staff for that anyway. I am asking because he is taking a trip with a couple of the guys later this week and I can tell he is already dreading the questioning. Maybe it will help this time that the pastor will be with them...we'll see...

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Michelle

Edited April 27, 2010 by Just Me

[Jean in Newcastle]

My dh is not ordained at least formally, although he has his MDiv and most of his ThM also. He did get one of those mail-order ordinations just so he could do weddings. What tax benefits? Dh was receiving money from a church for being interim pastor and we filled in the regular paperwork that a pastor would for taxes. They didn't ask about ordination. What mattered was that the money came from a non-profit church.

[Just Me]

See...that is what I thought...the tax breaks come from being a minister in a church, not from being ordained, right? Or maybe I am confused...

 

 

edited to add - just looked it up, and apparently ordination or licensing is a requirement. Sorry! Don't want to mislead!

Edited April 27, 2010 by Just Me

[Mama Anna]

I'm not sure what denomination you are a part of, so I'm not sure what ordination would mean/entail for your dh. My dh was ordained last fall (less than one week after dd7mos was born - that was a long evening!!) after several years of "I think I should - I don't think I will - I think I should" wavering.

 

He's a seminary grad. He'll be graduating w/ his second seminary degree next month. He's not called to the pastorate, although he's investigated that route several times. He enjoys preaching, but not as a constant, week-in-week-out thing.

 

When he's not wanted to be ordained, it's been because he's felt (as best as I remember the discussions) that ordination can create a false hierarchy within the church. For a preaching/senior pastor, it's one thing. But everyone in the church (as our denomination understands it) is supposed to work together as fellow-believers and it's awfully easy for people to feel that "those special ordained people" should do all the work. It can be seen as putting someone on a pedestal so that if they should ever happen to fall in some way the damage is much more intense than if they're seen as a lay-person. So while he's been just thinking of non-pastor staff positions in a church, he's wanted to avoid it.

 

He finally decided to seek it over the course of a year when he was getting a lot of pulpit-supply opportunities, had been made an elder in our church, and was looking at being an interim pastor if the Lord should open up such a possibility. The difference is that he's in more of a position of teaching/preaching about doctrinal matters now and he feels that to be ordained (again, in our denomination) means that a reputable church (as well as professors and multiple pastors in his case) has vetted him and found him to be sound in that doctrine.

 

We're not signing up for tax benefits, if that matters.

 

If he doesn't feel he should do it, shouldn't that be his choice? (So, what is a polite, "spiritual" way of saying "Mind your own business?") :)

 

Hope that helps!

 

You can always pm me if you like!

 

Mama Anna

[Jean in Newcastle]

See...that is what I thought...the tax breaks come from being a minister in a church, not from being ordained, right? Or maybe I am confused...

 

 

edited to add - just looked it up, and apparently ordination or licensing is a requirement. Sorry! Don't want to mislead!

 

Where did you look it up? It isn't an issue for us right now because dh is doing his pastoring for free (very small congregation that has no money), but I want to understand all this.

[Mama Anna]

I could be wrong, but I think the "tax breaks" have to do with opting out of social security.

 

Mama Anna

[Jean in Newcastle]

I could be wrong, but I think the "tax breaks" have to do with opting out of social security.

 

Mama Anna

 

Oh - see that wasn't an issue for us because dh has a regular job on the side that pays social security. So we only filed a special form based on the income he got especially from the church.

[Just Me]

 

The difference is that he's in more of a position of teaching/preaching about doctrinal matters now and he feels that to be ordained (again, in our denomination) means that a reputable church (as well as professors and multiple pastors in his case) has vetted him and found him to be sound in that doctrine.

 

Mama Anna

 

Your ordination sounds a lot like ours. And my husband feels absolutely no call to preach. He leads our Middle Schoolers, and runs our sports ministries. I think if he ever felt called to a preaching role, he would pursue ordination. My dh is just not an 'out-front, public speaking' kind of guy. That is more my area!! And I really want to tell these guys to buzz off - of course, in the kindest way possible!! ;)

[Just Me]

This is the link I read through: http://www.guidestone.org/taxguide

[Chris in VA]

I guess it totally depends on your denomination. For us as Episcopalians, the priestly ordination allows one to bless the Eucharist and administer the other sacraments (although anyone can baptise).

We also see Confirmation as the "ordination of the laity," so we believe in the priesthood of all believers, just special roles for some of them.

 

I can see it means something different for y'all, and your hubby should be able to choose! :001_smile:

[Starr]

I could be wrong, but I think the "tax breaks" have to do with opting out of social security.

 

Mama Anna

 

No that's an an extra you get to pay! :001_smile: Pastors have to pay their own SS.

[sassenach]

The 2 main tax breaks are a housing allowance and the ability to opt out of social security. The first does benefit us, but the second most definitely doesn't. We chose not to opt-out because it wouldn't be truthful for us to do so. I'm amazed at how many pastors take the option, even though they don't have a religious objection to social programs (which is the basis of the opt-out option). We have to file our taxes as self-employed (as do all ordained ministers), and because we didn't opt-out, we pay a LOT of taxes. SE taxes are no joke. Now we get to pay not only our portion of SS, but also the portion that is usually paid for by the employer.

 

The housing allowance is a portion of your income that is tax free (but not SS free), that goes towards your house payment, furniture, and anything you buy for the house.

 

Another small benefit is a pastoral reimbursement account, which is also tax free. You can claim your dh's cell phone, pastoral miles, and other "business" type expenses. That is money that the church sets aside for you, but for us at least, it is factored as part of our salary.

 

And no, if your dh is not called by God to be ordained, there is no reason for him to do so.

[Mama Anna]

This could get sort of snarky, but would he feel comfortable asking one of the other guys to do a joint Bible study on it? I can recall a couple of times in one of the Timothy epistles and in Titus where descriptions of elders are given (usually assumed to describe pastors these days) I don't think there's actually a prescription of ordination in the New Testament. Various people had hands laid on them before they were sent out, but the idea of "setting someone apart" (especially a non-preaching staff-member) within the local congregation by ordination seems to be more of a tradition . . . (So, from a New Testament Church viewpoint, is it really <gasp> Biblical? :D Okay, so is it required in the Scriptures? )

 

It might turn into the type of long discussion that my dh especially enjoys. But then, he really loves long discussions and your dh might not. ;)

 

Just a suggestion!

 

Mama Anna

[SonshineLearner]

I think you have to decide at that time, whether or not to take the tax break of not contributing to SS. So, it can be a serious tax break for all that money that's coming from the church... or ministry. You still would pay tax on say... Kroger's for a side job. Also, does it have anything to do with a housing allowance? I know my dad has been ordained... and I know that he had to make some $$$ decisions way back when. I think it's a "once only chance" to decide on the tax stuff...

 

:)

[SonshineLearner]

... I can recall a couple of times in one of the Timothy epistles and in Titus where descriptions of elders are given (usually assumed to describe pastors these days) I don't think there's actually a prescription of ordination in the New Testament. Various people had hands laid on them before they were sent out, but the idea of "setting someone apart" (especially a non-preaching staff-member) within the local congregation by ordination seems to be more of a tradition . . . (So, from a New Testament Church viewpoint, is it really <gasp> Biblical? :D Okay, so is it required in the Scriptures? )

 

 

Mama Anna

Well.... hmmm... they are set apart and judged at a higher level of responsibility .... if they are preaching... so... isn't it partially just an acknowledgement. I, for one, think that it's great to set apart... and respect... the leadership position that they are willing to take... knowing that their judgement is harder... because of the fact that they are taking leadership responsibility.

 

:)

[jubulibee]

My dh is an ordained senior pastor with his MDiv.

 

The ordination ceremony is not biblically mandated for pastors. However, it is not unbiblical to be ordained either. In our denomination, a pastor serves several years (technically licenced but not ordained). Then, after a time (it's almost like a probationary period), the denomination officials will extend an invitation to be ordained. For us, it means a pay increase--not much!--as well as a few more privileges and responsibilities. It doesn't make a difference for taxes, though.

 

However, let me say this. At our ordination service, I was humbled and awed by how sacred, solemn, and inspiring it was. I was unprepared for how special it would be to me, as well as to my husband. Of course, we/he knew we had been called by God, but this was confirmation and affirmation of that call.

 

Now, let me ask--why doesn't he want to be ordained? Does he not feel specifically called to do so? Does he have something against it, or just not feel it is necessary?

 

And know this: if God wants him to be ordained, He will make that plain to your hubby.

[Mama Anna]

Well.... hmmm... they are set apart and judged at a higher level of responsibility .... if they are preaching... so... isn't it partially just an acknowledgement. I, for one, think that it's great to set apart... and respect... the leadership position that they are willing to take... knowing that their judgement is harder... because of the fact that they are taking leadership responsibility.

 

:)

 

I agree with you completely! Those in positions of leadership are judged at a higher standard and they should be respected.

 

Like I said, my previous comment was rather snarky.

 

My point was that if op's dh is just getting bothered because of semantics and tax breaks, there is room for a messy argument about semantics in English and Greek.

 

Please allow me to apologize. It is not a light thing to suggest sparking a controversy in the Body of Christ simply in order to get people to chase their own tails so they forget to chase yours. Sorry!

 

Mama Anna

[Just Me]

Let me clarify...my husband is not against ordination, he just doesn't feel called at this point to be ordained. We went through deacon ordination a few years ago, and it was a very moving time - I loved hearing the prayers folks lifted for us. My husband is not a 'preacher' although he is a minister. I don't really think that most folks in our church would be able to tell you if he were ordained or not. We know a couple in which the husband just started seminary this year, and he has already gone through the ordination process. He is one of the ones who brings this up with my husband, along with two other ministers on our staff, neither of which is the pastor. I am just trying to understand why it is such a concern for them. Whenever he and I discuss it, I argue on the side for it, but have no good reasons why he needs to go through with it at this point. He is well respected and is seen as a leader, so I don't think this is the issue. My dh has a servant heart and does not call attention to himself unless he feels it is what he is definitely called to do.

 

I really do appreciate the conversation. You all have affirmed our belief that this is something that he really should seek the Lord's timing on.

 

Thanks so much!

[mom2abcd]

I think those people are concerned that your husband is turning down a great benefit.

 

It's like going to med school and earning the right to have M.D. behind your name, but you say, "No, that's OK. I just wanted to learn. I will be Mr. Smith rather than Dr. Smith. I'll hang out my shingle and people will come to me as their doctor."

 

We all know that having M.D. behind your name and being an accredited doctor holds more weight than just knowing the person has a medical education.

 

I don't see why he wouldn't want to be ordained. He wouldn't have to be called Pastor Smith (or whatever) if he didn't want to be. But the "accredidation" is in place.

 

I imagine if too much time lapses between the educational training and the ordination, there may need to be further education. That would depend on your denomination, I guess.

 

Anyway, I think the others are concerned that he's "throwing away" an opportunity for credibility, etc.