????s about US History/Notgrass/Hakim/add ons

[Susan C.]

Hi all,

We are doing US History next year for 11th grade. I have used Hakim's History of US in the past, and it is still in the running for dd. I have searched threads, and have questions about some of the things I found.

 

A lot of people seem to recommend Notgrass paired with TC dvds. It seems that this will take a lot of time. Notgrass has 5-10 pages of reading every day with 15-20 questions to answer. That will take awhile in itself, and if we add a video, it seems like that will be too much.

 

So, I can do Notgrass by itself. I'm not sure it differs that much in level from Hakim, any opinions? I'm not sure about their literature portion either, dd tends to prefer a literature text for samples of writers (more exposure), rather than just reading 6-8 books a year (she is a slow reader).

 

Another question about Notgrass: How does it compare in tone to BJU and A Beka? I am Christian, but can't tolerate A Beka. BJU is better, I just skip a few items, but it is dry. Both are more of a religious slant than I would prefer. I am wondering if I would feel the same way about Notgrass. I don't mind religious, but it can be overdone.

 

It was suggested in another thread to add Hewitt's Syllabus and Tests to Hakim's history. It is jr. high level, but I'm not after rigorous. Also, it was suggested to use Critical Thinking with it. Any reviews?

 

What I am looking for is readability, good American lit. selections (can be a separate lit. program), writing assignments (not lame ones) with writing instruction, runs easily (maybe even a schedule, but if is broken into doable segments, that is fine.) Also, dd is a slower reader, and not in rhetoric yet (or only slightly in rhetoric).

 

I like to get curriculum picked early, but right now at the end of the school year, I don't like anything :tongue_smilie:.

 

Thanks everyone!

[Tokyomarie]

I haven't seen the Notgrass US History. I have just received the World History and it really could not be used if you were looking for religious references to be mild or toned-down. I think Notgrass World History's reading level is probably comparable to Hakim. Hakim's tone is grating for an older teen in the first couple of volumes. My oldest daughter commented on that herself, though she didn't mind the later volumes. I am going to use the World History as supplemental reading because it does seem to present a coherant, easy to read narrative.

 

I paired TC videos with Hakim for my second daughter. We have their college level US History survey course. We didn't watch every lecture but we watched many of them & it did raise the bar on analysis of events over just reading Hakim. However, she also did US History as a 2 year course rather than a 1 year survey.

[Liza Q]

We use Notgrass/TT dvds and I do not find that it takes too much time....probably because my daughter does not answer all those questions in writing! She just reads them over and answers them to herself as a sort of review of what she has read. There are 84 lectures, which average to less than 3 per week. Since we made an effort to line them up with Notgrass, some weeks only had 1-2 and others had more than 3 but my daughter found it doable. The dvds were especially valuable to me because they have a secular approach. While I do not think that Notgrass is "overly" spiritual (I tend to agree with his analysis of events) I wanted my daughter to have another pov to consider.

 

Are they deeper than the Hakim books? I think so....but then I think that I may be wrong! I have not had them side by side to compare. Maybe I can say that the vocabulary in Notgrass is harder but there may be more information in Hakim?

 

I like Notgrass because it is from a Christian pov but not in an excessive way.....I really am not sure how to explain this. I have not read the ABeka US High School text so I could be wrong but I have read a few of their elementary texts and they seem to tie being a christian and being an American together in a way that makes me uncomfortable. Notgrass is nothing like that. There is a weekly chapter that is a Bible Study but it is really more like an essay dealing with a social or spiritual issue that was prevalent during the time period she was studying. Some examples are "Social Darwinism and the Social Gospel", "The Dilemma of Suffering" and "Roe V. Wade". I have my daughter read these without doing the bible memorization, etc. that Notgrass suggests and I think that they have added extra depth to her understanding of History.

 

BJU (I have read the High School text) is more informative than Notgrass but reads like a textbook. Notgrass is written by a person so it is easier to read than a traditional textbook.

 

The writing assignments have been great - my daughter has been writing a 2-3 page paper every week and I have seen a great improvement in her writing. But - there is no writing instruction, just the assignments.

 

The Literature was too light for us so I made up my own plan. I know that BJU has an American Literature Anthology that is meant to be used over 1 semester - you may want to take a look at that. It covers the literature chronologically and had a nice selection of poetry! I think it would be easy to add a few full-length works to it without being overwhelmed with reading.

 

Let's see....have I covered everything you mentioned?? Time, level, tone, readability, writing, lit...Schedule! It is set up for 30 weeks, 5 days per week. It assumes that some work will be spread over the week, like the writing assignments, but my daughter almost always wrote them on Friday and polished them up over the weekend. Adding the dvds was trickier as they did not line up that exactly but once or twice I had her take a week off from Notgrass and just watch some dvds.

 

hth!

Edited April 21, 2010 by Liza Q
typos galore!!

[Liza Q]

Oh - wanted to add something. Here is a list of what else my daughter has been doing this year. I did not think that History took too much of her time in comparison to other subjects but your daughter may be doing a lot more and not have the time for the TTC dvds!

 

US History

TT Geometry

OSU German 2

Psychology - a homemade class

Government - .5 credit with a text and some extra reading and a research paper

PE - .5 credit, gym membership, exercising at home

English - grammar/spelling/vocab review, American Literature and some writing, Windows to the World for more lit analysis and writing

Part time job - 12-18 hours per week

 

As you can see, no science! So, she has not been overwhelmed with work.

[Susan C.]

Oh - wanted to add something. Here is a list of what else my daughter has been doing this year. I did not think that History took too much of her time in comparison to other subjects but your daughter may be doing a lot more and not have the time for the TTC dvds!

 

US History

TT Geometry

OSU German 2

Psychology - a homemade class

Government - .5 credit with a text and some extra reading and a research paper

PE - .5 credit, gym membership, exercising at home

English - grammar/spelling/vocab review, American Literature and some writing, Windows to the World for more lit analysis and writing

Part time job - 12-18 hours per week

 

As you can see, no science! So, she has not been overwhelmed with work.

 

Thanks Liza (and Marie)! Wish we could skip science, that would give us two more hours a day!!

 

This is what we did this year:

Biology (online class adds 3 hrs./wk to homework and labs)

Geometry (dvd class 45 min. dvd plus homework)

English - most of BJU Writing/Grammar, A Beka World Lit. (all), need to still do some papers, didn't like BJU writing assignments

World History (3 texts plus finishing w/Story of the World, dd really bogged down in the textbooks and is now officially "over" history!!)

Spanish

PE (exercise videos at home every day, like your dd!!)

Logic (1st semester, part of the reason Wr/Gr. is behind, Logic took its place, we ran out of day)

 

Next Year (11th grade):

US History

Chemistry (online again)

English (comp/American Lit ** Liza, what did you use?)

Algebra 2 (dvds again)

Spanish

PE

maybe Logic

[Liza Q]

Well....about skipping Science. In NY we are only required to do two years and they do not have to be lab sciences. All the colleges we are looking at are ok with 2 years of lab science - she is not considering a math/science field at all. She did 1 semester of Earth Science in 9th grade and Biology w/lab for 1 credit in 9th. She will do Chemistry w/lab for 1 credit next year. This adds up to just over what she needed and gave her time to do Psychology, which is a big interest of hers.

 

She does not spend as much time on math either - TT probably takes about an hour per day. Yes, I know that it does not go as far as other programs but I like the slow and steady pace. She will do the Pre-Calc next year and I expect that she will be fine in college (my oldest was, even without the Pre-Calc!).

 

Basically, your daughter spends more time on math and science than my daughters do/did. And I know about running out of day!!!

 

Oh - for American Lit, I just made a list of 15 books and several short stories that I thought she would enjoy and we could discuss. We don't do this is in an indepth way, though. Some background from Sparknotes or something like that, some ideas from Teaching the Classics and TWEM. I had planned to use the Stobaugh Am Lit but we just despised it so this was a sort of put-together-in-a-hurry thing. Adding Windows to the World has been really nice - as she has covered different things in the program I have tried to apply some things to the books we read - make sense? The only thing we have really lacked is poetry :blush: - we have only read a few this year. And for writing - basically, the 5-paragraph essay over and over! I like The Lively Art of Writing for this, though I do refer to other books form time to time.

 

We stopped Logic when she started High School. I am not sure if it was a good decision or not!

Edited April 21, 2010 by Liza Q

[Lori D.]

A lot of people seem to recommend Notgrass paired with TC dvds... can do Notgrass by itself...

 

Yes. We're using Notgrass American History this year with gr. 10 and 11 DSs without TC DVDs. Notgrass is a complete high school history credit and does NOT need extra material added to it. We do occasional excerpts from additional resourses, but that is when we have the time or interest in doing so.

 

 

... Notgrass: How does it compare in tone to BJU and A Beka? I am Christian, but can't tolerate A Beka. BJU is better, I just skip a few items, but it is dry. Both are more of a religious slant than I would prefer. I am wondering if I would feel the same way about Notgrass. I don't mind religious, but it can be overdone.

 

Not familiar with BJU or Abeka, so I can't compare. However, re: the tone of Notgrass: the author is upfront in the introduction that he is writing from an evangelical Christian worldview, as a conservative American who grew up in the 1950s. However, he does not express his religious convictions in the history portions of the text, although religion is one of many cultural aspects that he does include in the study of American history (along with politics, the economy, treatment of minorities, civil rights, women's rights, etc.). We all are enjoying the informal, non-textbook-y tone of the history portions of the text; not dry at all.

 

The author's Christian worldview comes out in the weekly Bible chapter, but that makes sense, because it is designed to be a chapter on Biblical worldview based on history topics covered during that week. You can skip that weekly Bible chapter with no loss to the history portion of Notgrass.

 

Read sample chapters to decide for yourself here:

Unit 4 sample

Unit 19 sample

 

 

I'm not sure about [Notgrass] literature portion either... dd tends to prefer a literature text for samples of writers (more exposure), rather than just reading 6-8 books a year (she is a slow reader).... What I am looking for is readability, good American lit. selections (can be a separate lit. program), writing assignments (not lame ones) with writing instruction, runs easily (maybe even a schedule, but if is broken into doable segments, that is fine.) Also, dd is a slower reader, and not in rhetoric yet (or only slightly in rhetoric).

 

 

We are not using the Notgrass literature, which, IMO is NOT a literature credit. (No discussion questions; no literary analysis; no teaching text; no composition instruction; no grading rubrics; just a few comprehension questions and choice of general writing assignments at the end of a book.) I would describe the "literature" portion of Notgrass instead as a supplemental reading list.

 

We are making our own American Lit. this year to go along with the Notgrass American History (and just using Notgrass for history). We selected a wide variety of works (a few are on the Notgrass lit. list), focusing heavily on short stories this year so we could cover more authors. I can list of works we are using and what guides we are using with each if it is of help, but none of them include writing instruction. But then, I don't know of ANY literature program that includes EVERYTHING you list as wanting in a literature program. ;)

 

Because you don't mind excerpts and do want everything laid out for you, I'd suggest you look at BJUP 11th grade literature program, which focuses on American Lit. you can see Cathy Duffy's review, and table of contents and sample pages.

 

Other American Lit. 1 semester or 1-year programs you might consider:

- Learning Language Arts Through Literature: Gold: American Lit. = table of contents and sample

- Lightning Lit. & Comp.: Early to Mid 19th Century = scope and sequence and sample

- Lightning Lit. & Comp.: Mid to Late 19th Century = scope and sequence and sample

- Excellence in Literature: American Lit. = table of contents and sample

 

BEST of luck in deciding what works best for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Lori D.
fixed typos

[Tokyomarie]

re: the tone of Notgrass: the author is upfront in the introduction that he is writing from an evangelical Christian worldview, as a conservative American who grew up in the 1950s. However, he does not express his religious convictions in the history portions of the text, although religion is one of many cultural aspects that he does include in the study of American history (along with politics, the economy, treatment of minorities, civil rights, women's rights, etc.). We all are enjoying the informal, non-textbook-y tone of the history portions of the text; not dry at all.

 

I agree with the assessment that Notgrass' style is not dry! I've read the first 5-6 chapters of the world history text and it went very fast.

 

The beginning of the world history text covers history of ancient Israel so it is much more focused on the biblical narrative. The author is clearly a 6-day creationist, which we are not, but otherwise we mostly share his worldview, which is why I added it to our world history studies.

 

So you would say that in the US History text there is less religious "commentary" on events other than in the Bible lesson?

[Kareni]

... it was suggested to use Critical Thinking with it. Any reviews?

 

 

I don't believe anyone has addressed this aspect of your question.

 

Here's a thread that will give you some feedback about the Critical Thinking in US History Series.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[gingersmom]

It was suggested in another thread to add Hewitt's Syllabus and Tests to Hakim's history. It is jr. high level, but I'm not after rigorous.

 

 

 

 

I purchased the Hewitt Junior High syllabus and tests for Hakim's A History of US and I think it was a complete waste of money.

 

There was nothing rigorous about it.

 

I never even used it I thought it was so bad.

[Susan C.]

I purchased the Hewitt Junior High syllabus and tests for Hakim's A History of US and I think it was a complete waste of money.

 

There was nothing rigorous about it.

 

I never even used it I thought it was so bad.

 

Wow, thank you for saving me!! So better to discuss, and add some "deeper" books, right??

[Tokyomarie]

Wow, thank you for saving me!! So better to discuss, and add some "deeper" books, right??

 

I know there are varying opinions on this board about Sonlight, but I have used their Core 100 Instructors Guide with its commentary written by John Holzmann, map & timeline work, and the student questions for the Hakim books for both of my girls during high school. There aren't pre-made tests, since that's not SL's style, but I often pulled questions from the study guide to make up a short quiz, and I usually chose a set of questions from the IG that required a little deeper thought and had dd write about 5 short 1-3 paragraph essays weekly. I haven't decided for sure what history we're doing next year, but I'm toying with the idea of Core 100 history next year with a more advanced lit. program for my son.

 

The year my older daughter used the SL IG with Hakim, she also used SL's Core 400 Civics & American Lit program. The books included in Core 400 history (besides the Carson government text) are some good ones to consider for a deeper look at some issues. They have varying points of view, which created challenge & interest for my older daughter.

[Susan C.]

The year my older daughter used the SL IG with Hakim, she also used SL's Core 400 Civics & American Lit program. The books included in Core 400 history (besides the Carson government text) are some good ones to consider for a deeper look at some issues. They have varying points of view, which created challenge & interest for my older daughter.

 

Thanks for all of your input! What type of assignments does Sonlight suggest for their American Lit? Is there any input about the assignments, or is it just write a paper about such and such and you are on your own?

[Tokyomarie]

Thanks for all of your input! What type of assignments does Sonlight suggest for their American Lit? Is there any input about the assignments, or is it just write a paper about such and such and you are on your own?

 

The writing assignments for Core 400 lit assume that the student is already a fairly strong writer- beyond the basic "how to write an essay" instruction. There is significant direction, but mainly in the area of directing a student's thoughts as he/she writes. There are two assignments weekly, one having to do with some aspect of composition technique, such as considering the audience, and one response paper. In each case, the content of the paper will relate in some way to what the student has been reading. There are no hints for parents on grading these assignments, but I found them to be much more satisfactory than some programs that say simply, "Write a paper about....." with no elaboration.

 

The literature in Core 400 is pretty hefty but includes a few "easy reading" books. I tell people not to be fooled by their inclusion because in a number of cases there are literary analysis assignments that are based on those books. Though the books are easy reading, there are some good examples of literary devices that are discussed in the IG notes & make their way into assignments.

 

Core 400 was one of my favorite SL cores. I've done most of them with one or more of my children.