How would you handle this discipline issue?

[Sue G in PA]

In a nutshell, we are having respect issues with dd13. I know, she is a teenager and testing her limits. Most normal "hormonal" stuff we just let go and ignore. However, she tends to cross the line from "hormonal" to outright disrespect rather quickly these days (i.e. telling us how we should be parenting her siblings or criticizing our parenting, calling us a liar (which we are not) or other names, demanding we do this or that, etc.). It doesn't happen every day and mostly when she is tired (Sunday evenings) but I cannot let it go. When I realize she is "spiraling" I always warn her to just close her mouth and go find something physical to do to vent the anger, frustration, etc. or just "chill" in her room. I think a 13yo can heed that warning and obey, don't you? So, last night she was on one of her "rolls" with the disrespect and I warned her...twice. Then, she got worse and called me names I won't repeat. :001_huh: After 2 warnings, I first took away sleepover privileges for one month. She kept at it. I took away her cell phone when she threatened to call her youth pastor and tell her that we were "abusing" her (b/c we took away sleepover priveleges). She kept going. I took away ALL phone privileges for one month. She finally got the picture that I meant business. Oh, and b/c of her demanding and whiny behavior, we told her that dh would not drive her to her bus in the am for one week (the bus stop is about 1/8 mile away...closer than her friends house to which she walks daily). So, did I go too far? This is a chronic behavior of hers...thinking she can talk to me and dh like we were any common peer or worse. Besides that, she is a very responsible and thoughtful child...a true joy to parent. And I do make sure I tell her that. :)

[Chris in VA]

Ugg. 13 is so hard!

I think you did fine.

 

Have you ever considered making a contract with her? Just so she knows the consequences in advance (and you do, too). You could post it on the 'frig or something. I think it helps self-control when they know what's at stake. It may help you, also, to have a procedure in place. Just a thought.

[michelle l]

Have you read Parenting with Love and Logic?

 

I don't use it all the time. In fact, I'm really prone to getting angry right back and letting it spiral out of control. I think one of the things they might advocate in this kind of situation is saying something like "I'll be happy to listen to your concerns when your ready to speak respectfully" and continue repeating that. I can't remember if they say to leave the room if your teen keeps being ugly.

 

I think they do still have you address the behavior, and punish if necessary (which it sounds like this was!) they just don't have you do it in the heat of the moment causing things to escalate. I'll have to read it again as we have a LOT of this going on here!

[Tracy in Ky]

Can you remove her from school and bring her home? That may do a lot toward the problem.

 

:grouphug:

[fairfarmhand]

sounds like you did fine. Although in my family with my mouthy eldest child, extra chores seem to work better than taking away privileges. Then if she REALLY crosses the line, then we take away major privileges.

 

She knows that slamming a door, means she must fold one load of my laundry. Being disrespectful gets a 5 gal. bucket of rocks picked up from the garden, etc. It helps to have it written down. Then I'm not scrambling to think of chores when I am so angry and frustrated with her.

 

Why does she end up so tired on Sunday?

[Sue G in PA]

A few things: Chris, good idea about the contract. I will definitely try that with her! I really did not lose my cool with her last night, I was preoccupied bathing my toddler and doing laundry but could still here her "spouting off" while she was in her room, kwim? I really did not even converse with her at all until she yelled that she didn't care if she had to walk to the bus, that it was good exercise and something I should really take up! I calmly walked to her room, told her that she really hurt my feeling when she said that and she denied saying it. Then, I lost my temper a LITTLE bit and told her she was a liar, that my ears work fine and she DID say that. Anyway, it seems that Sundays are the day where all the early mornings and full days just catch up to her. Fri. she spent the night at a friends, had to get up early to come home and help watch her siblings while we did some home projects and then church on Sunday, trip to my folks house (typical routine). She just seems to really "melt down" on Sun. evenings. Tracy, we ARE bringing her home next year! :D In fact, ALL my children are coming home next year. I am excited. Michelle, I will look into that book. I have read Grace-Based parenting and I tend to err on the "grace" side too often I think. This child needs a bit more "truth". Thanks for the suggestions. My punishments were not out of anger, I don't think. I remained calm, issued warnings and then punishment when she refused to close her mouth and stop. I think a contract is in order, though. That way she KNOWS that when she steps over that boundary line into disrespect, that SHE is choosing her consequence. Any suggestions for how to word this? :D

[freetobeme]

:grouphug:

sue,

just wanted to say i have a child like this. . .the more i take away, the more she "doesn't care" and continues to spiral once things start up. mine has matured a BUNCH over the past year - she will be 15 soon. i think you have received some good advice and i will be listening myself. so, no answers from me except keep loving her and being patient with her. just wanted you to know you're not the only one. hang in there!

:grouphug:

[Quad Shot Academy]

I don't have a 13yo yet, so I may have no idea what I am talking about. ;) I can see how a situation could keep escalating if consequences keep getting added. The more angry the consequences make her, the more she acts out, the more she gets. I would think of a way to diffuse the situation quickly. Your idea of having her chill in her room or do something physical is great. You just need to find a way to get her to do that! I never feel the need to hand out consequences in the heat of the moment. I always tell them they have earned a consequence and they know I will tell them what it is in a 24 hour period. I usually sleep on it, or discuss it with hubby. I also give a separate consequence for each type of misdeed. So if they lied, yelled and called a name, there would be three separate consequences rather than just one larger one. :grouphug:

[Mary in VA]

Don't have an advice just :grouphug: :grouphug:. I have one like that, and I will tell you it has gotten a lot better as she has gotten older. So hang in there! Her older sister would catch on very quickly when she was losing privileges and would stop talking. The younger JUST. KEPT. GOING! She didn't know when to close her mouth. Her sister would even advise her to stop, but of course she wouldn't listen. I think all logic would go out the window when she would get angry. She seems to have more control now, although there are still moments :001_huh:.

 

Mary

[Starr]

I find too many activities with their friends can cause moodiness at home. I don't think it's their friends. They just get tired and there is a let down from the excitement. Who thought church could string out a kid but it can at our house. :D Our rule is that if you can't be nice to your family it means you need to spend more time with them. Real life isn't "hanging out with peers day" every day. My dd has a harder time than many of her friends with too much fun time. She just has to learn to understand herself or she will explode in college. It sounds like you might need to take a good look at her schedule and be sure she has enough sleep and hang out time at home, not just with friends. At our house sleepovers are occasional because of the lack of sleep and the craziness. I think they are tired by Friday and then it's go, go, go. Just some ramblings about our family. I think it's important for you to deal with this now. Good job Mom.

[fairfarmhand]

I definitely would lessen the weekend activities if she can't keep up with the attitude. Perhaps she can hang out at a friends house till say 10 then you pick her up so she can sleep at home??? (after, of course, the grounding passes) Then she can have some friend time, but not be so hard to be around.

 

Mondays are always our rough days around here. Tired from the weekend, piano lesson, and the weekend mess I am trying to get cleaned up, makes for a VERY difficult morning.

 

Just saying that I've been there, more times than I care to admit. Hopefully we will all survive!

[Tap]

Have you tried to talk to her about: 'how she feels during the episodes' but at a time that she is calm and willing to open up to you? Maybe you two can come to a better working solution at a time that isn't heat of the moment.

 

 

I just stumbled on a tactic that is working wonders for dd3 who tends to explode also, that may benefit you. When she starts to escalate, instead of standing there toe to toe and hand out threats, I say nothing and just walk her to her room. We sit on the bed and I let her get it all out. She can talk, scream, kick/hit the pillows (pillows only), and generally get it out of her system. Then after she is all done we talk again and for dd3 she has a 3 minute time out in the corner. After her time out, it is all over.

 

 

The benefit to this way of approaching her explosion, is that she is allowed to process her feelings without me adding fuel to the fire. Once she is calm, she gets her standard consequence and we can move on with our day.

 

 

I realize that 3yo and a 13yo are vastly different but it may be worth a try.

 

 

You dd sounds like she is getting her adrenaline pumping and that kicks in her flight or fight instincts. She is obviously geared toward the 'fight' side of the equation. Helping her to learn to get her self out of a situation before she explodes can be a very, very valuable tool for her in later life.

 

 

 

 

Another thought is to see what is setting her off each Sunday night. Is is coming home to chores and homework? Can any responsibilities be moved to another day or time? Are you more tired and less likely to overlook a snide comment? Has she been stuck in a car for hours with little kids driving her nuts? I would try and talk through a typical Sunday with her and see if yu can find her hot spots. If you can maneuver them around a bit, and make the day better for everyone, then why not?

 

Ds15 is a procrastinator, so I ask him to have any major homework done on Friday before he makes plans for the weekend. I prefer that he only has 15 minutes or so of homework on any Sunday. This allows him to have one day of true rest. School can be very demanding and adding in sports and other commitments can leave a child very over scheduled. I think we all need to prioritize a time to just rest and to know that it is coming, so we can look forward to it.

[BMW]

About the long term consequences - a month... I've found that when it's a long term consequence, my son stops caring how he acts because he's already lost "everything"... and he is not motivated to correct the behavior after that. What works for us is to start with the day we are in... he hands me the cell phone for the next 24 hours... he keeps it up, I tell him that he has now lost it for 3 days... he continues so now he has lost computer for a day (or two or three, depending on how badly he is behaving)... he continues and gets extra chores... If you start with a smaller time frame, you have somewhere to go.

 

I also had recommended recently on this board that when the child disrespects someone, they have to do something kind/good for that person. I am enjoying putting that into practice.

 

And, no freebies. Don't make an excuse for the behavior (she was tired, hormonal, etc.). People get tired and hormonal all the time, but we have to respect each other, right? When you let a bad behavior go, you have just given them permission to repeat that bad behavior. Not saying you do this, but it's my recent lesson... :)

[jld]

I agree with the poster who said that going to school, plus a sleepover Friday, plus church activity on Sunday probably left your dd a tired gal last night.

 

Honestly, I'd probably apologize to her. Yes, to her. I would probably say that I wouldn't have wanted to be talked to the way I talked to her last night, and that I wasn't thinking about where she was coming from. I would tell her that she's getting older, and that I want to build a good relationship with her, and that I would like to do my part in the relationship. What does she think I could do to help us get along? I would listen, really listen, and see what seemed reasonable to me. Then I would do my best to begin earning her trust. Actions count more than words, so I would focus on my actions. When I would be disagreeable (we all are at times), I would apologize and try again.

 

Hopefully after a long time, say several weeks or even months, my dd would start to feel trust in me again, and would open up to me. Maybe she would even apologize for her behavior. But that wouldn't be the point, trying to get her to apologize. The point would be my being the role model for her, a role model for how to build a trust-based, healthy relationship.

 

I'm sure you can tell I've been reading Stephen Covey's books, lol. But I think they work. I use this approach with my kids (dd14, nearly 15) and (ds11, 7, and 4) all the time, as well as with dh. When a parent can be humble, and really seek to understand a child, so many disagreements can settle down quickly.

[Sue G in PA]

I apologized to dd almost immediately after I called her a liar. I told her that I raised my voice and called her a name in the heat of my anger and it was wrong and I was sorry and asked her to forgive me. Honestly, I do not think I was out of line at any other time. I mostly just ignored her, telling her occasionally that I did not like the way she was talking to or about me and she needed to just stop talking before there were consequences. I do plan on talking to her today after school. Each consequence she received was doled out at a different time...not all at once as she "escalated" and I got angry, kwim? First was sleepovers, then the more she continued it was phone privileges and then when she threatened to call her youth pastor, it was the cell phone. Not that I was afraid or anything, just ticked off that she would even say such a thing. Sundays are always long days for us all. Up early for church, sometimes a trip to my folks (an hour away from here) but then there are some weeks we just hang out at home and relax.

 

I like the idea of having her make it up to me or at least apologize. Extra chores are another option for future infractions. Thanks all!

[Danestress]

I know you said that you were ignoring some of this and were busy with the other children, but I would have not even addressed it with her or spoken to her that evening at all - or at least not until she was all the way calm and came to me with an apology.

 

Some kids really thrive on conflict or seem to thrive on it in the midst of a problem. It sounds like you got to where you were imposing penalties and she was acting out more so you imposed more and she upped her behavior. That's just a cycle I don't like to be in. I did it plenty with my oldest, and finally when DH and I discovered John Rosemond's "Teenproofing" we learned to break out of that. I know a lot of people don't like Rosemond, and I find his tone fully obnoxious. Nevertheless, beneath the condescending attitude, I do think he is right, and his advice for us was valuable. We learned to delay gratification on wanting to impose justice, and that helped us not have escalating conflicts.

 

I would have just withdrawn entirely from the situation and from her - even over night. Then the next day I would have talked to her about it. I'm not as interested in talking it all out, though, and discussing her feelings at length. I would have just waited until she asked me for something and then laid it on the line. "No, I won't drive you there. In fact, for the next week, I will not drive you anywhere and I will not let you use my stuff - like my tv, my computer, my telephone. The way you behaved last night was inexcusable, and when you behave that way, you will find that your privileges seem to disappear. I will still love you, and I do, but I won't let you use my stuff, including my time. Let your friends know you will not be at the sleepoever Friday."

 

The end.

 

She argues, you shrug and say, "yeah, I remember feeling that way as a teen too. Nevertheless, because of your behavior, that's the consequence. Got to go. Kids need to go to soccer. Have that laundry folded when I get back. Do you need anything while I am at the drug store?" Friendly, but resolved.

[jld]

That was an insightful second paragraph, Danestress. Thank you for that!

[cillakat]

I'd also have a look at _Transforming the Difficult Child_

 

Majorly helpful here. And a quick and easy read.

 

K

[Caribbean Queen]

I know, she is a teenager and testing her limits. Most normal "hormonal" stuff we just let go and ignore.

 

...I always warn her to just close her mouth and go find something physical to do to vent the anger, frustration, etc. or just "chill" in her room.

 

...I warned her...twice. Then, she got worse and called me names I won't repeat.

 

My six year old also tests how far he can go with me. He needs strict consistant, obvious rules. He doesn't need to test his limits when he knows where the limits are. For instance, when I tell him to do something he may say, "Yes, Mom." or he may not say anything. He is not allowed to "back talk" me. If I let milder, borderline, not-so-bad back talk slide then things will slippery slide to rudeness very quickly. Ignoring the minor stuff is a big mistake with him.

 

Also "Go have your bad attitude in your room" thing doesn't work with him. He stews in anger and makes plans for how he will complain to me. If I tell him he isn't done being angry so go back to his room he will stay in his room for a very long time and cry. Getting him to express his feelings to me is just giving him an audience for his bad attitude and pity party. :nopity: I have to require him to obey right away, while in the room with me.

 

 

Mom: Go brush your teeth

Son: Why? I hate brushing my teeth. You're mean.

_________________________

What works for us----

Mom: Excuse me, that is not the correct reponse. Let's try that again. Go brush your teeth

Son: Yes, Mom.

 

_________________________

What doesn't work

Mom thinks, "Oh well." Later Son behaves even worse.

 

Mom says: Go to your room. Son goes to his room and whines and cries and Mom comes in to have a heartfelt talk and it turns into a 40 minute drama. Good grief, just brush your teeth, Son.

[myfunnybunch]

I think one of the things they might advocate in this kind of situation is saying something like "I'll be happy to listen to your concerns when your ready to speak respectfully" and continue repeating that. I can't remember if they say to leave the room if your teen keeps being ugly.

 

I've never read the Love & Logic book, but this is what I do with my difficult 14 y.o. I will leave the room if need be, though it usually doesn't get to that point.

 

Usually she is trying to engage me.

 

I've found that escalating punishment just makes the situation worse. As long as I am trying to control her behavior by taking away, I am still engaged in the interaction, and taking things away in the heat of the argument is less likely to help her regain control. Even if it finally stops when I find a big enough consequence to get her attention, she's gotten a pretty big payoff (my intense attention) and I've dished out a huge consequence, far bigger than warranted by the initial behavior.

 

When, instead, I refuse to participate in the disrespectful interaction, she eventually calms down and re-engages in a more appropriate manner. Or she doesn't. Sometimes she just goes to her room, calms down and realizes that it isn't worth fighting over.

 

Once she's calmed down, I will approach her with the family consequences for speaking disrespectfully. The consequences are pre-determined, so there is no discussion about whether or not they are appropriate, and I won't engage in one even if she starts to spiral into anger and disrespect. They are what they are.

 

Like your dd, it happens most often when my dd is tired or overwhelmed. I think part of her is seeking the blow-up, which seems to be somewhat cathartic for her. So I also work on helping her to identify when she's feeling that way and finding more appropriate ways to deal with those feelings.

 

Cat

[myfunnybunch]

The end.

 

She argues, you shrug and say, "yeah, I remember feeling that way as a teen too. Nevertheless, because of your behavior, that's the consequence. Got to go. Kids need to go to soccer. Have that laundry folded when I get back. Do you need anything while I am at the drug store?" Friendly, but resolved.

 

Yes.

 

It sets a clear boundary. You're not making a huge deal out of it once it's over. It is what it is, we deal with the consequences and we move on.

 

I think that teens also need us to model how a conflict resolves, so they're not stuck with it. In essence, "Here's the consequence...and life is going to go on, love you!"

 

Cat

[momof2jb]

I had a very similar issue just last night. Sounds like you did a very good job. My biggest problem is stepping back, breathing, and talking calmly. Way easier said than done. I've found immediate punishment to help the best - we do chores as punishment and the worse his disrespect the more chores.. My son had to put away all(and we had quite a bit) of the laundry before he was released to do as he wished. That is putting the time limit on their end. Then when he whines to do something and he hasn't completed his chores - I remind him that he is free of his punishment when he completes the task. Sometimes it is 2-3 days, and sometimes 20 minutes. He is in control and that is good for him and way easier on me. If I take things away for long period I tend to forget or cave and well then he wins!

 

Just read yesterday in a daily meditation about stepping back and waiting when I'm mad at someone - until I can calmly correct. Funny how God talks to us sometimes.

[fairfarmhand]

I know I wasn't the one complaining about my child this time, but you ladies have given me some wonderful food for thought. And it helps to know that others have been in the trenches too.

 

Sometimes the way my oldest behaves is absolutely incomprehensible to me. She is a headstrong firstborn and I am a get along with everyone, people pleasing middle child. I NEVER did this stuff growing up. I constantly find myself thinking "why does she want to do it like this? All she has to do is go pick up her dirty underwear, like I asked her. Why turn it into an hour long drama?"

 

The birth order book helped a little bit. And it helped when I decided that SHE was going to be the one who decided how her life went. Mom provides consequences and if she decides to be ugly, then her life wouldn't be much fun. goodbye Mommy guilt....

 

But anyway, this thread has been so helpful to me too.

[Sue G in PA]

More food for thought. Danestress...thank you for those insightful words. I should have had more will power last night and not engaged. She pushed my buttons and she knew it. The name calling and disrespectful tone...she knows those are my hot buttons. :glare: I am def. going to try to back off completely from now on. No engagement. No words. Nothing. Let her talk and talk and yell and yell. Next day, she will realize the consequences of how she behaved. No phone, no tv, no computer, no driving her anywhere. I have so much to learn raising a teenager!

[michelle l]

A few things: Chris, good idea about the contract. I will definitely try that with her! I really did not lose my cool with her last night, I was preoccupied bathing my toddler and doing laundry but could still here her "spouting off" while she was in her room, kwim? I really did not even converse with her at all until she yelled that she didn't care if she had to walk to the bus, that it was good exercise and something I should really take up! I calmly walked to her room, told her that she really hurt my feeling when she said that and she denied saying it. Then, I lost my temper a LITTLE bit and told her she was a liar, that my ears work fine and she DID say that. Anyway, it seems that Sundays are the day where all the early mornings and full days just catch up to her. Fri. she spent the night at a friends, had to get up early to come home and help watch her siblings while we did some home projects and then church on Sunday, trip to my folks house (typical routine). She just seems to really "melt down" on Sun. evenings. Tracy, we ARE bringing her home next year! :D In fact, ALL my children are coming home next year. I am excited. Michelle, I will look into that book. I have read Grace-Based parenting and I tend to err on the "grace" side too often I think. This child needs a bit more "truth". Thanks for the suggestions. My punishments were not out of anger, I don't think. I remained calm, issued warnings and then punishment when she refused to close her mouth and stop. I think a contract is in order, though. That way she KNOWS that when she steps over that boundary line into disrespect, that SHE is choosing her consequence. Any suggestions for how to word this? :D

 

 

Ahh...sounds like you did really well. I read Grace Based Parenting last summer, and really liked it. My next door nieghbor, who also hschools, is sooo gentle with her children. I wish I were more like that. I really struggle not to lose my cool, especially when my teen gets going. It's something I really need to work on!:ack2:

[LibraryLover]

It's easy to say in hindsight, but I would not have engaged, I would not have escalated it with my words, threats, or punishments. She obviously has some anxiety about Sundays, so I would try to figure out what that is.

 

You'll know if the punishment worked if she turns over a new leaf. At any rate, something isn't right with her. I have an anxious child, so I understand this can be trying. If I am lucky enough to know what is causing stress, we can talk about if beforehand. "It seems you get very anxious on Sunday nights. That must seem scary. Lets think about what this means and figure out some coping strategies together".

[Lisa in Jax]

I know you said that you were ignoring some of this and were busy with the other children, but I would have not even addressed it with her or spoken to her that evening at all - or at least not until she was all the way calm and came to me with an apology.

 

<snip>

I would have just withdrawn entirely from the situation and from her - even over night. Then the next day I would have talked to her about it. I'm not as interested in talking it all out, though, and discussing her feelings at length. I would have just waited until she asked me for something and then laid it on the line. "No, I won't drive you there. In fact, for the next week, I will not drive you anywhere and I will not let you use my stuff - like my tv, my computer, my telephone. The way you behaved last night was inexcusable, and when you behave that way, you will find that your privileges seem to disappear. I will still love you, and I do, but I won't let you use my stuff, including my time. Let your friends know you will not be at the sleepoever Friday."

 

The end.

 

She argues, you shrug and say, "yeah, I remember feeling that way as a teen too. Nevertheless, because of your behavior, that's the consequence. Got to go. Kids need to go to soccer. Have that laundry folded when I get back. Do you need anything while I am at the drug store?" Friendly, but resolved.

 

This is almost exactly what I would do. It's very "Love and Logic." ;-)

 

Lisa

[MamaReese]

I think you did fine.

 

I know with my dd (13 in June), the more I take away and engage her, the more she gets mouthy and acts like she doesn't care...she wants me to get upset and react.

We tell her she is being disrespectful and is out of control (unable to follow simple rules and except "No" answers) we make her sit on the stairs until she can be in control. Yes, basically a time out. At this time we ignore her and go and focus on other things until she calms down and is in control and ready to be respectful. She has been known to sit there for 30 minutes. When she is calm and in control ready to be respectful, we will talk again. If at any point while talking she is disrespectful or out of control she goes back and sits down. She also earns an extra chore for every time she is out of control.

 

Nicholeen Peck: http://teachingselfgovernment.com/ has some wonderful ways of dealing with children. I have read her book A House United Teaching Self-Government and highly recommend it. We don't follow it exactly as she states in her book, but I have gotten lots of help and ideas from her.

 

Good Luck this age can be so difficult.

[Peela]

My preference when it comes to consequences/punishments is to make them immediate, even with my teens. So, I wouldn't withdraw phone priveleges for a month- I would make her do something NOW, at least today. That's just the way we have always parented- it means we can forgive and move on quickly. Its just as much for us parents as for the kid-if we have to hold on to a punishment and administer it for a week or a month...it feels bad, particularly if the child has felt remorse and moved on as well. We love to give to our kids and could not stand not driving them to the bus stop if that was what we actually wanted to do- and if it wasnt, we wouldn't use it a a punishment. We would just get them to walk anyway.

 

Our 14yo son definitely tends towards the kind of disrespectful behaviour you are talking about, and we do punish him and deal with it etc. However, it would breed bitterness to give him long term punishments. Having them over and done with on the same day means we can start fresh each day. It keeps things light and loving rather than heavy, for us.

[Laura Corin]

When things start to escalate like this, I try to say, "Calvin, I think things are getting a bit out of hand here. Do you think we should both stop and start over?" Then we have a hug (if he's willing) and both settle down for a bit, before trying to talk through what was going on.

 

Laura

[Renee in NC]

When things start to escalate like this, I try to say, "Calvin, I think things are getting a bit out of hand here. Do you think we should both stop and start over?" Then we have a hug (if he's willing) and both settle down for a bit, before trying to talk through what was going on.

 

Laura

 

This is a really good point, Laura. It seems when I am dealing with my 12yo that sometimes we both get so caught up in the argument that the reason it started doesn't have anything to do with it anymore.

 

I have to keep *myself* from engaging/escalating. I've gotten pretty good at it with the 9yo, but the 12yo pushes my buttons!:tongue_smilie:

 

So, step back, separate, come back and try again.

[jld]

I really like that 'do-over for both parent and child' idea, too, Laura. Thanks!