Question that I would rather ask anywhere else...

[ezrabean2005]

...:D.....does anyone who follows the WTM not like history (gasp!)?

 

Seriously. We've tried workbooks, textbooks, SOTW / MOH, encyclopedias with outlining and I swear I am trying to show enthusiasm. But from day one, all of this is just so painful.

 

It's just not that interesting to any of us. That sounds horrible. We're a huge math / reading house. So then I think to just have the kids read literature (like Ambleside or Robinson). But then it's not chronogological (it's hard to find books on Ancient Times), and I don't want them to miss something / have gaps.

 

Argh. Can anyone else relate? What do you use / do?

Just dealing with it is an option. But I'm hoping it's not the only one. :lol:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

You could try K12 History:) I would try to find a way to continue since our society suffers from a lack of knowledge of history IMHO:(

[JessaMae]

I never liked history in school, BUT now that I'm studying it with the kids, I'm lovin it. I love that we can read historical fiction and I love doing it chronologically. I'm sorry you're struggling with it. :grouphug: I can totally relate, bc I feel that way about science!!

 

Have you tried Sonlight? or MFW? Both of these programs use living books to "bring history to life." I'm not sure about Sonlight, but I know MFW is a mix of classical, CM, and unit study. Maybe one of those would make it less painful?

 

Hugs to you, hope you find something that works!!

[ezrabean2005]

You could try K12 History:) I would try to find a way to continue since our society suffers from a lack of knowledge of history IMHO:(

 

I'll look into K12 - I've heard of it a lot though. I totally agree with you about society. That's why we've always used something even when it wasn't so great. I do want the kids to be fluent in history - we just haven't found the right tool yet.

[ezrabean2005]

I never liked history in school, BUT now that I'm studying it with the kids, I'm lovin it. I love that we can read historical fiction and I love doing it chronologically. I'm sorry you're struggling with it. :grouphug: I can totally relate, bc I feel that way about science!!

 

Have you tried Sonlight? or MFW? Both of these programs use living books to "bring history to life." I'm not sure about Sonlight, but I know MFW is a mix of classical, CM, and unit study. Maybe one of those would make it less painful?

 

Hugs to you, hope you find something that works!!

 

Thanks for the hugs. I don't like feeling like this. I'll look into both of those - what program do you use? You mentioned historical fiction being done chronologically. Do you just create something yourself or did you find something? I heard a huge "NO, NO" to historical fiction at one point (because the child wouldn't know what is fact vs. fiction), but some are so well done that I can't imagine just throwing that idea away.

[iammommy]

Wwe are not history lovers, adn we find this fun, actually. There are choices of projects to do, and many higher level thinking questions. It's the most interest my ds has ever shown in history. Just a thought.

 

Nan

[EKS]

With my older son, we did history chronologically by just reading a bunch of books. No spine, no worksheets, just nonfiction and fiction. It was great.

[KinderSafari]

We did SOTW with reading the chapters, asking review questions right afterwards and that was it. Nothing extra. No extra history books. No extra projects. Just the story. It's a solid base of history, and written in a way my kids (and I!) were able to follow.

 

The other stuff LOOKED interesting, and we purchased some other things to go along with it, but just still have them basically untouched. My boys loved history and went off on tangents of their own. My daughter and I, well, we know the generalities of things. And for now, I think that's enough. :)

[atozmom]

You could look into TruthQuest as well. Each topic has a commentary then a list of books with all ages ranges that go with each topic.

[Guest]

There are a few things I'd like to say -- all of which I suspect any number of people will disagree with, but here goes anyway.

 

First, there are other types of history besides political/military history, which tends to be what you get when you go for chronological history, particularly if you rely on textbooks or informational spines. This is not to say that no cultural or other kinds of information enter in, but the emphasis is overwhelmingly on rulers, wars, empires, etc. These are NOT everybody's cup of tea. I have done graduate work in history, I read history continually, but I have never been a huge consumer or fan of strictly political history (note I do not say I am opposed to it altogether; of course not).

 

So those who are pointing toward a fictional route offer you one way out of this dilemma. Another idea is to read trade books rather than books published specifically for the educational market: stay away from textbooks and workbooks altogether. There are history-based magazines for kids you can usually find at your library -- Cobblestone, Calliope, Ask, and later on, Muse (for preteens and young teens). There are biographies of people but also of ideas across time. Increasingly, books written for adults are being republished in versions meant for the young adult market, and some have chapters or sections that can be read aloud to even younger kids. There are comic book versions of history. There are magazines for historical re-enactors.

 

There are also numerous books that mix informational text with hands-on projects and activities: There's the "Great _______ Projects You Can Build Yourself" series (insert time period) and the series that includes things like "World War II For Kids," "Marco Polo For Kids," "Shakespeare For Kids," etc. I didn't see an indication of your children's ages, but all the way through junior high kids are still developing hand-brain connections; they learn through their bodies in ways that most adults no longer need to do. Plus activities and projects can be really great fun. If you feel more comfortable using textbooks or chronological survey books, these might go down better if mixed up a bit more with things kids DO rather than read and write about exclusively.

 

Second, I have come to question, quite seriously, the whole notion of "gaps." If a child is not engaged or interested, you can go through all the most clear, chronological, and exact information in the world, presenting him with all the facts he or she would ever need, and it will not stick. Even if your child has read chronological textbook history for twelve years, if you've outlined and timelined and written essays, only little outposts will remain. There will STILL be gaps. Heck, even if your child passionately adores history, reads it obsessively, and follows a chronological plan, there will be gaps. No one's mind can hold it all. Do not think that merely "covering" or exposing a child to "all" of chronological history will mean that there will be no gaps.

 

My own feeling, which comes from my own education and that of my daughter, is not that that learning history unchronologically is either better or worse, but that 1) it is perfectly possible; and 2) it makes you work actively to assemble the chronological picture rather than spoon-feeding it to you already put together. I've always thought that knowing the Biblical account of the flood and then later, as an adult, coming across the Gilgamesh version, gave me a wonderful "aha" moment that i would have missed if it had all been given to me in chronological order in the first place. I've had lots of moments like this. Brain scientists call it cognitive dissonance, and it's how people learn most actively: finding material that goes against the model of the world they have constructed, and having to work to see how it might fit, take things apart and put them together again.

 

This is a VERY long-winded way of saying, if what you are doing now is not working or engaging your children, put it aside and do not be afraid to try something else. Other models have their own strengths and weaknesses and are perfectly valid ways to approach the subject. There are all kinds of ways to learn history; and you can still use elements from the WTM model even if you depart from it in others. Or you can vary what you do at the moment and return to the chronological sequence, outlining, etc. when your kids are older.

[ezrabean2005]

Hi KarenAnne,

Your message is so well thought out and so freeing! I always worry about doing this wrong. And even when we have the three "R's" down, it seems that there is always another area that we are falling short in. Thank you for being so honest and real. Your advice really helps. It's being printed out and going on our fridge to think more about.

~Angela

[texasmama]

We use SL for history spine/readalouds/readers and though I have never liked history and found it pretty boring, I am enjoying most of this ride. :) SL focuses a great deal in the younger years on social/cultural aspects of history, using interesting living books and historical fiction, which the kids love. I have dh read the big readaloud book at night before bed so I am overburdened with readalouds during the day in addition to our other work.

 

Everyone has something they love and something they hate. Your kids may grow to love it if you can find the right fit for you all. I look at it the same way I did when my kids were babies and I was introducing foods. I hate green peas and had to make myself serve them to my kids because I thought they deserved a chance to like them even if I hated them.:tongue_smilie:

[KrissiK]

I never liked history as child, but then I started reading biographies and adore history now. And, as I write this, I'm listening to Victor Davis Hanson (classical scholar, speaker, professor, etc.) talk about how what is happening now in our country isn't new in the history of the world- it happened in ancient Rome when the elite just kept giving government handouts to the masses, which kept them satisfied until the whole thing just blew up in their faces. It's fascinating and really shows me how a knowledge of history is so crucial in the times we are living in. I didn't get a chance to read this whole thread, but Beautiful Feet may be an option.

[yslek]

How about just listening to the SOTW audiobooks in the car (provided you like the narration ;)--we do here :)) and then read the historical fiction you guys actually like. That way you'll get the overview/spine that you feel like you "should" have, but won't be spending a great deal of time on it. You wouldn't even necessarily have to worry about reading historical fiction in chronological order. You could just discuss the time period the story is set in, or even make some kind of timeline on which you place the book titles.

[Sue G in PA]

Have you tried a more literature-based History program? Since you enjoy reading, your dc might enjoy history more by reading historical fiction. My dc do not like History. I never did until I started teaching it. What really sparked my interest was learning how the Bible stories and people we teach our children all fit into specific periods of History. Does that makes sense? It was all amazing to me...Diana Waring's What In the World is Going On Here CD's really brought it home for me. Great CDs. Don't know if you teach from a Christian viewpoint, but I just thought I'd plug DW anyway :D

[Mom-2-7]

Why not just keep a timeline? Since your dc like reading, after they read a book, they can make a tag and put it in the appropriate place on the timeline. If you have a place where you can keep it displayed then you all can review it and purposely add in books from the eras you've missed.

[samba]

Dd10 doesn't care for history and as much as I have tried to be enthusiastic about it, I don't either. It's certainly important. We just don't find it interesting.

 

I have never thought of WTM as being history-centered. I've always seen it as skill-based and we are all about skills here :001_smile:. I'll admit I've often felt discouraged about our lack of interest in history, as if it is some sort of moral failure... but I don't blame SWB for that :tongue_smilie:.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Why not just keep a timeline? Since your dc like reading, after they read a book, they can make a tag and put it in the appropriate place on the timeline. If you have a place where you can keep it displayed then you all can review it and purposely add in books from the eras you've missed.

 

That's all we'll be doing. Well, that and encouraging the kids to read historical fiction and autobiographies and taking note of the time period of any other books they are reading. We are reading The Little House in the Big Woods right now and it will be our first mark on the timeline. :D

[lauracolumbus]

All Through the Ages is a good guide for age appropriate historical fiction and non-fiction. There are also a lot of science/history books as well, such as What's Your Angle Pythagorus? I think it takes some creativity, but if you can weave history in w/your other subjects, your kids might enjoy it more.

 

Laura

[JessaMae]

Thanks for the hugs. I don't like feeling like this. I'll look into both of those - what program do you use? You mentioned historical fiction being done chronologically. Do you just create something yourself or did you find something? I heard a huge "NO, NO" to historical fiction at one point (because the child wouldn't know what is fact vs. fiction), but some are so well done that I can't imagine just throwing that idea away.

 

 

I think historical fiction is great. You can explain to the kids that even though the events/time periods are real, an author took the events and created a story around them. I think most kids can understand that. I just tell mine that this "might have happened" during such and such time period.

 

We use My Father's World - it is a Christian based, chronological, 5 year (one year of geography), classical, CM, unit study type curriculum. :) I like it because I would be completely overwhelmed without it! They use quite a few different spines, and then give you a list of books on the subject you are studying (both fiction and non) that you can borrow from your library. From what I understand, it's very similar to Sonlight, but less expensive. And in years 3 and 4, they also use SOTW as one of their spines. They break the lessons down into a grid form (history, science, art, music - all related to the time period.) It might be worth trying :)

[hmschooling]

I second All Through the Ages as a great resource for finding excellent literature choices for history.

 

And I'm hiding my face when I say this...we don't like it here either!! There. I said it. BUT, a turning point for my kids was when we starting reading great books, interesting biographies, and doing fun stuff with it...I got it all from Heart of Dakota. Maybe you'd like to use the program, or maybe you'd like to just borrow book ideas from them :) We now LOVE history here! LOVE IT!!

 

And I have to add that of ALL curriculum choices, in ALL subjects, Heart of Dakota is my all time favorite! And I've used so, SO many of the others you hear about. It's living books, chronological, beyond Christian based (can't possibly be done secularly by just dropping the Bible part b/c it's so interwoven), science relates to the history, involving notebooking, narration, poetry and copywork...and more. And it's wonderfully full and yet very doable.

Edited April 15, 2010 by hmschooling

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Hi KarenAnne,

Your message is so well thought out and so freeing! I always worry about doing this wrong. And even when we have the three "R's" down, it seems that there is always another area that we are falling short in. Thank you for being so honest and real. Your advice really helps. It's being printed out and going on our fridge to think more about.

~Angela

 

I printed it out, too! ;)

[EthiopianFood]

So many people say they don't enjoy math very much, and nobody tries to talk them into liking it. Why should you feel badly about not liking history? I've never really embraced the idea of history being such an important subject for the average person. I think cultural relations are much more relevant. Knowing WHY something happened isn't always necessary it figuring out how to fix it, and on such important issues, how many of us have any control over those issues anyway? History is just another subject to cover for a well-rounded education. If your children have a need for more in-depth information in the future, they will find it, just as they will for any other topic. Relax. :)

[5LittleMonkeys]

When Karenanne mentioned magazines it made me remember this http://www.learningthroughhistory.com/index.html

 

We have used a couple of these this year and I have considered purchasing more for my oldest next year as she does not like history either. She liked reading through these because I didn't "assign" it and didn't require her to outline, summarize, write a report or do a project on them. We just casually discussed some of the articles.

 

I actually was very glad to have read this post; it gives me some great ideas to make history more enjoyable for my oldest next year.

[PeterPan]

Oh mercy, you haven't seen my history for history-haters rants?? :)

 

Of course some of us hate history! Go get yourself a nice textbook and be free. If you must use literature, get VP. The online, self-paced courses should be pretty good. VP has clear expectations and doesn't try to force you to enjoy it. For textbooks I can abide the junior high of BJU and also AAH. Abeka4 isn't too bad.

 

But no, nothing says you have to enjoy it, read lit about it, wallow in it, or anything else. Even SWB in her WEM (Well-Educated Mind) talk says to pick SOMETHING as your track for study. It could be science fiction through the ages for all she cares. :)

[PeterPan]

Ok, I've read Karen Anne's post. Much as I love her (and I do, we correspond a lot these days!), I'd like to toss out a few contrarion opinions. First, I think people who hate history do so either because they didn't have the experience to make it click (which of course historical fiction and whatnot can restore) OR because they don't have brains that get history the way it's usually taught. The ONLY history that makes sense to me is something that is chunked into stages, put in a flowchart, compartmentalized. So VP history makes sense. A history textbook with a table of contents makes sense.

 

Now unfortunately there is a sense in which gaps of history knowledge become SO big they DO become debilitating, lol. People kind of expect you to know more than the dates of the Civil War and that Jamestown existed, which has been about the extent of my history retention for most of my adult life! I didn't even realize George Washington did his thing in VA until we went back there this summer, and I lived there for 7 years growing up!! So those are some pretty serious gaps. LOL It would have been nice if some of those history-loving teachers had bothered to figure out the value of flowcharts and big picture teaching to help people like me. Might have had more retention.

 

Now interestingly, Karen's comments on reading a genre, any genre, across time, exactly mirror what SWB says in Well-Educated Mind. So there you go, great minds think alike. I thought it was a very liberating idea when I first heard it, the idea that you could take ANYTHING your really like, any genre, read it across time, and begin to understand the flow of thoughts and events in our history. So there you go. But as for me guzzling historical fiction, not likely, lol. Well I take that back, those Lady Grace mysteries do look really cool! :)

[Reya]

Have you tried "fun history" books? (I mean, encyclopedias without outlining, and you don;t like history? Of course you don't! I would have, but I read Braudel's work on medieval France so many times in high school I'd all but memorized it.)

 

Try "How Would You Survive?" books

"I Was There" books

"See-Through History"

Macaulay

Peter Connolly

Diane Stanley

"You Wouldn't Want To..." books

Most things by Fiona McDonald

Horrible Histories

Dead Famous

....and on and on!

 

Use a spine to just slot these things together. We do 15 min of history a day here. We read either one chapter from SOTW or a section of another book, usually a fun one, and we only try to keep it chronological in the roughest sense at the lower level--we finish an entire SOTW book before reading other books about the same period. NO worksheets. NO quizzes. NO outlining (yet). NO "activities." Just reading and enjoying and discussing in the most informal way.

 

Historical fiction is VERY uneven with historical accuracy. Some really wonderful writers are quite impossible when it comes to anything resembling decent research. Just to keep in mind....

[AK_Homesteaders]

I tried SOTW and another, but studying the ancients, no matter how I presented it (textbook or historical fiction) it didn't click with my boys. I was bored, too. I decided to present history so that my children can relate to it. That meant biographies of people like Daniel Boone and other exciting people and events in American History. I found Truth Quest and have started reading some wonderful books to my boys. They are now having a wonderful time with it. We're currently studying American history chronologically, but when they get a little older, we'll start back with Creation and go from there. Also, I think historical fiction, if well done, is an excellent way to get children excited about history. The point at that age is to get them interested; it is not to have them remember every detail perfectly. I have explained what historical fiction is to my boys and they seem to understand it very well.

[Rosie_0801]

Have you looked at the living math website? Maths history should be a happy thing to explore for mathsy people :)

 

A certain amount of political history is necessary, but seriously, there are other more interesting things to study. Food, in my case. Dh rather likes looking at the evolutions of war strategies, weaponry and other war equipment. He even made a replica of a Roman army backpack. Your fellas might like that too. If so, borrow whatever books you can find and explore the topic. Don't worry about gaps. There are very few topics in history where you can learn everything. There are very few where you can read everything ever published either.

 

Another fun way to consider history is to work out who you would have been and how you would have lived back in whatever historical period. So if your dad is a banker, find out what what status money lender types were, where they would live etc. Probably not suitable for little kids though. Too much research for their poor mum!

 

Rosie

Edited April 15, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Renee in NC]

Ok, I've read Karen Anne's post. Much as I love her (and I do, we correspond a lot these days!), I'd like to toss out a few contrarion opinions. First, I think people who hate history do so either because they didn't have the experience to make it click (which of course historical fiction and whatnot can restore) OR because they don't have brains that get history the way it's usually taught. The ONLY history that makes sense to me is something that is chunked into stages, put in a flowchart, compartmentalized. So VP history makes sense. A history textbook with a table of contents makes sense.

 

I don't agree with that at all. I have extensive knowledge of history, both from school and personal reading. I've read biographies, historical fiction, non-fiction, textbooks, primary sources, etc. I still don't like it. History makes sense to me, but I don't think it is all that important for most people except from a cultural literacy standpoint. I tend to drift more towards economics, anthropology, and cultural geography.

 

Now unfortunately there is a sense in which gaps of history knowledge become SO big they DO become debilitating, lol. People kind of expect you to know more than the dates of the Civil War and that Jamestown existed, which has been about the extent of my history retention for most of my adult life! I didn't even realize George Washington did his thing in VA until we went back there this summer, and I lived there for 7 years growing up!! So those are some pretty serious gaps. LOL It would have been nice if some of those history-loving teachers had bothered to figure out the value of flowcharts and big picture teaching to help people like me. Might have had more retention.

 

Most people I come across in daily life don't have a clue about history, so they don't have any expectations that someone else will. The general public doesn't care about anything even remotely academic and won't care whether or not you know when the Civil War occurred. Some people will have a particular era that caught their fancy and they will know alot about that point in history, but not much else past Columbus and the Pilgrims. I teach history to give a general idea about what has happened in the past and to spark an interest in particular times (maybe - I don't know that they will!)

[cathmom]

Dd10 doesn't care for history and as much as I have tried to be enthusiastic about it, I don't either. It's certainly important. We just don't find it interesting.

 

I have never thought of WTM as being history-centered. I've always seen it as skill-based and we are all about skills here :001_smile:. I'll admit I've often felt discouraged about our lack of interest in history, as if it is some sort of moral failure... but I don't blame SWB for that :tongue_smilie:.

 

History is the lynchpin. Science and literature selections are based on history. When I first read WTM, I thought it was great and wanted to do it. But my oldest doesn't like history and he HATED everything being filtered through history. And since my very boring high school history teacher had required outlining (although I hardly ever did it - I couldn't see why I should rewrite a book that had already been written!), I was reluctant to make him do it. The only history this child ever really liked was the Civil War and the history of Taiwan, which he discovered in college.

 

I never liked taking history classes in school or college. It seemed like I could never figure out exactly what the teacher wanted so that I could get an A. I do like reading about history on my own, whatever catches my fancy. I think that may be why some people don't really like history, because if you're only marginal about it and then somebody makes you outline and narrate and do projects and on and on, it's going to end up with you hating it.

[PeterPan]

Wow, I wouldn't go quite so far as to say history is unimportant. History is our heritage, our encouragement, and the future we tend to repeat. I just don't know it. And around here, with so many history lovers (2 history lovers, 2 who work in museums and do antiques, etc.), you're pretty much a 2nd class citizen and look STUPID when you don't know history, lol. So just because it isn't important in *your* life doesn't mean it wouldn't be valuable to your dc's future life or situation. We're teaching to open doors, not assume they won't need things. Do what you want, but that's my take. And my only remedy? I'm really awesome with old movies, which sort of by a side road teach you a little history. When we play history trivia games, at least I can clean up there. :)

Edited April 15, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[samba]

Wow, I wouldn't go quite so far as to say history is unimportant.

 

This wasn't meant for me, right? Because here's what I said:

 

 

It's certainly important. We just don't find it interesting.

 

 

History is the lynchpin. Science and literature selections are based on history. When I first read WTM, I thought it was great and wanted to do it. But my oldest doesn't like history and he HATED everything being filtered through history.

 

I've always viewed the science and history as a vehicle for learning the skills (ie. reading, comprehending, writing, researching, creating "pegs", laying foundations for later learning, etc.) my child needs to reach our goals of being well educated. We don't have to arrive there the same way. Perhaps I've filtered this through my own preferences and dd's interests...or perhaps my filter is broken :tongue_smilie:.

[Renee in NC]

Wow, I wouldn't go quite so far as to say history is unimportant. History is our heritage, our encouragement, and the future we tend to repeat. I just don't know it. And around here, with so many history lovers (2 history lovers, 2 who work in museums and do antiques, etc.), you're pretty much a 2nd class citizen and look STUPID when you don't know history, lol. So just because it isn't important in *your* life doesn't mean it wouldn't be valuable to your dc's future life or situation. We're teaching to open doors, not assume they won't need things. Do what you want, but that's my take. And my only remedy? I'm really awesome with old movies, which sort of by a side road teach you a little history. When we play history trivia games, at least I can clean up there. :)

 

I didn't say it wasn't important at all, just not important enough for me to revolve all our schooling choices around it. I also don't think not having history (or any other subject for that matter) will cripple them in life. You can learn anything (and learn it faster and more thoroughly) if you want to. Force feeding kids anything doesn't necessarily mean that they learn it. They'll do what most students do - learn it enough to pass the test or get the A and then promptly forget most of it.

 

I do teach history, I just don't think it is the be-all, end-all that most homeschoolers seem to. We do history, but it isn't anyone's favorite subject.

[KrissiK]

I think the study of history is extremely important. If we don't know the mistakes we've made in history, how will we teach our children not to repeat those mistakes? I am quite frightened about the direction our country is going in (I do not want to make this a political thread, this is just stating my reasoning for emphasizing history) and I want my children to know the importance of the Magna Charta, to know why Rome fell, to know the philosophies of Karl Marx, to understand the human condition and how important freedom is and the only way they can do that is by looking at the past and seeing what happened when people get complacent and the elite continue to gain power unchecked.

[cathmom]

 

 

 

 

I've always viewed the science and history as a vehicle for learning the skills (ie. reading, comprehending, writing, researching, creating "pegs", laying foundations for later learning, etc.) my child needs to reach our goals of being well educated. We don't have to arrive there the same way. Perhaps I've filtered this through my own preferences and dd's interests...or perhaps my filter is broken :tongue_smilie:.

 

I'm not quite sure I understand your comments here. Anyway, with my son, he was already 11-12 years old when I got WTM (the first edition). He knew a lot of the foundational skills already. To suddenly take most of our schoolwork and base it around history, a subject he doesn't really like, did not work LOL.

[Guest]

This is a great thread and I'm really enjoying reading everyone's different feelings and approaches.

 

Let's be clear, though: approaching history from different genres and standpoints, following a child's interests in determining what materials to use, not worrying about "covering" every single factoid or ruler in a long, long list of kings and emperors, not knowing the dates of every major war: this is not the same as not knowing history or not thinking it's vitally important.

 

Every history book I read, whether it's on the history of tea or the history of the equation e=mc squared, inevitably involves political history and causation. There's no way NOT to do this. The difference is on emphasis; often on multiple time periods; and the crossing of what we tend to think of as interdisciplinary boundaries. The histories of both examples I gave, tea and Einstein's equation, are inextricably connected to war and politics. In fact, after reading books like these it is possible to feel that standard political histories leave out as much as they put in -- which of course they actually do. All history, every kind, is a process of selection and the construction by the historian of meaning and connection.

 

My point is that a standard military history would leave out a lot of information, so that after reading one of the other books you might think of conventional history as leaving out some pretty important elements. I began to think of it as having its own form of tunnel vision.

 

I think everyone here is aiming toward the same long term goal: an educated young adult who understands the importance of historical knowledge, who understands that currents all have a long and complicated string of events and cultural ideas behind them, and that our understanding and critical thinking about both past and current events is crucial to an informed democracy. But there are a variety of ways to get there, a variety of ways to think about what constitutes history.

[ezrabean2005]

These are all great ideas and thoughts. I do appreciate the dialogue about this.

 

See to me...the WTM is more about history than anything else. Or maybe it is more emphasized than anything else. Like someone else mentioned, it seems to be the "hinge" of everything else.

 

Sure you have english and math and such. But if you are discussing world events it's in the context of history (of course, right?). If you are watching your child develop from grammar to logic stage it's because they aren't just repeating facts (kings, dates, etc.), they want to know more about "why?". And the lens it seems to be looked at is through the subject of history.

 

Truly, I just don't see the same emphasis on the other subjects. And that's not a flaw, but it does leave our family (me) feeling like we are "missing something" when it doesn't excite us nearly as much as other subjects do.

 

To compare it seems like narration is to Charlotte Mason ("a lesson not narrated is a wasted lesson") is the same as history to Classical Education.

 

Now I'm not saying I'm right. It's just what I've seen so far. I could be COMPLETELY off on this.

[Guest]

These are all great ideas and thoughts. I do appreciate the dialogue about this.

 

See to me...the WTM is more about history than anything else. Or maybe it is more emphasized than anything else. Like someone else mentioned, it seems to be the "hinge" of everything else.

 

Sure you have english and math and such. But if you are discussing world events it's in the context of history (of course, right?). If you are watching your child develop from grammar to logic stage it's because they aren't just repeating facts (kings, dates, etc.), they want to know more about "why?". And the lens it seems to be looked at is through the subject of history.

 

Truly, I just don't see the same emphasis on the other subjects. And that's not a flaw, but it does leave our family (me) feeling like we are "missing something" when it doesn't excite us nearly as much as other subjects do.

 

To compare it seems like narration is to Charlotte Mason ("a lesson not narrated is a wasted lesson") is the same as history to Classical Education.

 

Now I'm not saying I'm right. It's just what I've seen so far. I could be COMPLETELY off on this.

 

I think you're right on target: history is the mainstay of TWTM because it's an intersubject connector, forging connections across subjects that are typically (in public schools at least) put in such narrow boxes that they virtually never overlap. In most textbooks on science, for instance, the historical story of how a theory evolved or how an invention went through many, many stages of development over time just doesn't appear; kids are just presented with the end result as a fact. Most facts began as perplexing problems.

 

However, I've also read a number of posters whose kids are not reading/writing oriented wondering how they can bring that same kind of centrality to their child's main passions or learning style: particularly science-minded kids. I think it could also be true of art, or a child who is extremely creative, or who has a non-academic passion in whatever form.

 

This is by NO MEANS a criticism of TWTM; but I think all people who come up with an entire educational philosophy or approach are going to intuitively stress the things that they themselves are drawn to or do well. So SWB will emphasize critical reading and writing, and seeing things historically. Lucy Calkins, a NYC professor who has been a pervasive influence on writing instruction in elementary schools across the nation, is attracted to memoirs and literary autobiography and poetry; so her curriculum is very powerful in those areas but quite weak in terms of any other forms, from analytical essays to manga to journalism to fiction. That's how it works out, because no one has an expert's view of absolutely everything.

 

I've noticed that over the course of the WTM revisions, the science recommendations have changed as SWB's more science-minded boys grow up and she is seeing first-hand what they gravitate toward. I read on her website somewhere that she is now asking scientists and professors what they would like to see in incoming undergraduates who have a science major in mind. That's what was needed all along, I think: input from people whose lifework is there, who will inevitably see education from a very different point of view than a humanities professor (I've heard my husband's chemist and physicist colleagues talk about education extensively over the years and find it very interesting -- very different from my own humanities orientation). Professional artists, art historians, and conservators would have another valid, specific educational philosophy which might or might not overlap with WTM. So would mechanics -- I get a big kick from listening to the Car Talk guys critique their own educations, in particular their critique of the Death March from algebra to calculus and how they and others would be better served with more extensive training in statistics, probability, and economics. This is even true with math -- which the WTM stresses, but in an arithmetical kind of way rather than in the far larger and quite different context of professional mathematicians.

 

None of this is to say that any particular approach is somehow made invalid or lacking because of this inherent, inevitable slant toward the author's own experience and strength. It is just to say that recognizing this is important; it gives your perspective on the ways in which you will tweak and change it to meet your child's particular needs or interests -- and your own.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Guest

[JennW in SoCal]

So what does excite your family? You can frame all your school around any topic that "winds your clock" -- dinosaurs, astronomy, mathematics. And you'll find, no matter what topic you love, you will inevitably be learning about history the more you explore that topic.

 

To me, so much of learning is getting contextual hooks onto which to hang new information. I personally find that what really cements those hooks is if they are placed there by a genuine interest -- and it is surprising where those hooks can come from. If you read about Galileo because you are fascinated with astronomy, you will also learn about the Pope and the Church of the 1600s because of Galileo's trial for heresy. Then, when you least expect it, you see a reference to the Roman Inquisition and you think -- oh yes, that is the same body that tried Galileo. When you get to high school and college, then you go beyond the hooks start thinking about why something is important, and develop an argument on how one thing directly affected another. But for the most part, with younger kids and teens, getting those hooks into place is what matters.

 

You don't have to treat history as a separate subject, but accept it as an inevitable part of every subject. For the younger grades it is about filling your child with stories. If you've never listened to the story tapes of Jim Weiss, check him out as an example of this. My kids LOVED his collection of stories of the great astronomers and scientists -- they were stories that were engaging to listen to, but by golly my kids internalized so much history through repeated listenings.

 

You are homeschooling your kids. You get to decide what that education should look like. Keep a Kingfisher History Encyclopedia on your shelf so you can look things up, get in the habit of using Google and Wikipedia for a quick reference, and study what you want to study. You and your kids will learn history in spite of your dislike of it as a subject!

[Colleen in NS]

...:D.....does anyone who follows the WTM not like history (gasp!)?

 

Seriously. We've tried workbooks, textbooks, SOTW / MOH, encyclopedias with outlining and I swear I am trying to show enthusiasm. But from day one, all of this is just so painful.

 

I hated history in jr. high and high school, because of incredibly boring teachers and having to learn from snippets in a textbook. It would not have occurred to me to go to the library and read biographies and other supplements. Yet after using WTM for the past six years, I can say that I am interested in history now. I don't *love* it, but I am interested, and I am convinced of the importance of studying it (notice I didn't say mastering it - that'll never happen). And I've found that I do like biographies and other supplemental books (we supplement SOTW and KF by looking in the library for books on current topics).

 

Second, I have come to question, quite seriously, the whole notion of "gaps." If a child is not engaged or interested, you can go through all the most clear, chronological, and exact information in the world, presenting him with all the facts he or she would ever need, and it will not stick. Even if your child has read chronological textbook history for twelve years, if you've outlined and timelined and written essays, only little outposts will remain. There will STILL be gaps. Heck, even if your child passionately adores history, reads it obsessively, and follows a chronological plan, there will be gaps. No one's mind can hold it all. Do not think that merely "covering" or exposing a child to "all" of chronological history will mean that there will be no gaps.

 

:iagree: This is why I don't bother with history tests/quizzes, or even with asking comprehension questions after every section of SOTW or KF. We read. Then we use *some* of the reading to provide fodder for writing exercises, during which I ask comprehension questions - but that is for the sake of *writing/thinking* skill, not to make sure my kids remember every single thing they read. That would be impossible.

 

It could be science fiction through the ages for all she cares. :)

 

But then you would be subtly picking up the history of science fiction by doing this! But I think you said something along these lines in a later post. :D

 

Most people I come across in daily life don't have a clue about history, so they don't have any expectations that someone else will. The general public doesn't care about anything even remotely academic and won't care whether or not you know when the Civil War occurred.

 

I see this as a big problem in the world - not knowing about the past, and therefore, not knowing how to fully live in the present.

 

See to me...the WTM is more about history than anything else. Or maybe it is more emphasized than anything else. Like someone else mentioned, it seems to be the "hinge" of everything else.

 

Susan is a historian, so it seems likely to me that she is going to argue for history being the hinge for study. I also happen to have been convinced by her argument. But like someone else said, there are different ways of looking at history - you can look at political history, or you can look at scientific history, or the history of art or music or sports or kingship or church or or or......and these areas can lead to interests in other areas of history. I like the idea of getting a big general overview going with something like SOTW, then delving a little deeper with more detailed reading and outlining, and adding the history of literature to it, and probably letting my kids branch out into areas of history that interest them in high school - for ds, maybe something like the history of technology or science fiction; for dd maybe the history of dance or painting or textiles. But at the very least, I think knowing something about the big overall picture is important. I didn't even have that by the end of high school - I was just drowned in multitudes of details of American history. To me, history began in 1492! Ridiculous.

 

I think you're right on target: history is the mainstay of TWTM because it's an intersubject connector, forging connections across subjects that are typically (in public schools at least) put in such narrow boxes that they virtually never overlap.

 

:iagree: and what I bolded is why I study history with my kids, even if I don't adore it right now the way SWB seems to - although my interest is growing, the more I find interesting books to read, and esp. if I find books that highlight the humanness in history, not just the facts. This was her argument that convinced me. So we do it chronologically because that makes sense to me, and we read/write/timeline about it.

 

My previous lack of enthusiasm about history is precisely why I use the WTM suggestions for studying, as opposed to buying a prepackaged history program (even the SOTW AG - not for me - just give me SOTW to read and to give me further book ideas) - that smacks of my school experiences to me - "here, read this, do this and this and this, and then try to get a good grade on the history test." No thank you. Let us read, talk, and write about what does interest us in our current history study. There is always something to interest us, I am finding now, because of the freedom to choose our reading, after getting ideas from SOTW/KF.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Nothing to offer except to say I am going to print out and frame this entire thread. I bless the day I stumbled across this forum. :D

[chadzwife]

I agree with KarenAnne. When my son was young and showing talent twd engineering, I started asking engineering type ppl what he needed to be dong NOW in school to be prepared. What classes would he be taking in college for an engineering degree? Where could I find ppl to take him for a day in the life of...?

My son has yet to agree with me on this decision for his lifework lol. But someday he's got to go back to school. Tradesmen figure out about 35yo that their body's giving out and not gonna keep up with the abuse of physical labor for the rest of their lives. Even if they loved it the first 15 yrs they painted, roofed, carpeted, dug sewers, etc. The money's not bad, but then ur body gets OLDER lol.

KarenAnne's perception that SWB also chooses things from a humanities-viewpt as her strong-pt is quite good too I think. Gives me something new to think about. I'll have to go reread those 3 editions and follow the evolution of her science choices. I already know I like the older suggestions for how to teach history. I don't like SOW (or FLL much either lol).

But at the end of the day, as much I think hst is INCREDIBLY important, if I have simply instilled a sense of hate for it, I may as well have slept all day. Same for math. One can always learn what one needs later, when one wants. But the dread of learning can keep one from learning anything more later. The JOY of learning. The reward that learning is. That is my goal. Learning is it's own reward. I'm a voracious learner made all the more so by my vast amount of learning I have acquired. Dang I have subjects I hate tho! :)

[ElizabethB]

I hated history the way it was taught in school.

 

But, there are several big picture, analytical history books that I've liked, here they are with a bit about each:

 

Albion's Seed: four British folkways in America by David Hackett Fischer. Looks at 4 different waves of immigration into America and how their culture and beliefs shaped their region and shape America even now.

 

Thomas Sowell's Culture books: Race and Culture, Migrations and Culture, and Conquests and Cultures. Very interesting, he has a lot of stats to back up his thoughts. He approaches it from a very rational, logical basis and has done a lot of research, his books are heavily footnoted.

 

Seeds of Change by Henry Hobhouse. "This book, devoted to quinine, sugar, tea, cotton, and the potato, is not just about plants but about history. It shows how certain plants influenced the course of human affairs, often negatively. Quinine, for instance, cures malaria, but that quality allowed temperate-climate peoples to exploit tropical areas. The development of cheap sugar is linked with slavery, and tea with opium. Seeds of Change is fascinating and well researched."

 

Generations by Strauss & Howe. Looks at Generational cycles, very interesting. I re-read it post 9/11 and found they had predicted a 9/11 type scenario and several responses depending on the generation in power when the attack occurred. (The book was written in 1991.)

 

From a Christian standpoint, I've also enjoyed Schaffer's "How Shall We Then Live" and James Nickel's "Mathematics: Is God Silent." (Schaffer's book also ties in other areas than history, and the math one is, as expected, about math.)

 

(Copied and pasted from this thread, where I ask for more recommendations along those lines.)

[ezrabean2005]

I think a lot of the analytical historical ideas are more interesting to us. For example, we followed Guns, Germs, and Steel very closely (but that was "extra"). No one in our family hates history. The way many curriculums present it is just dull. Thanks for all the ideas.

[Happy Heart]

Look into the Mystery of History books. I've heard from lots of people that they and their kids love learning chronological history from these books. ;)