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I just read through a whole bunch of past Latin threads to try and think through what I want our Latin goals to be. There seem to be two main reasons people talk about: 1. to read Latin books fluently, or 2. for the grammar/logical reasoning/English-shaping aspects of Latin study. I haven't decided which way I want to go yet, but came up with some questions.

 

To those who want their kids to be able to read Latin books fluently, why do you want this? Is it just so they can enjoy the reading/viewing life and history through another language, or do the NLE and AP tests for verification/possible college credit factor into this?

 

To anyone doing Henle, if a person does ALL of First Year Latin (Henle I), can Second Year Latin be done in just a year (say, in grade 9 or 10), since some of it will be review of Henle I? Or do you find that Henle II could take a couple of years? (I know that you can do just some of Henle 1 and then go into Henle 2 to save time, but I am doing Henle 1 with a middle grader, and don't have the concern about "losing" a year of study in high school, if we want to have time to go into reading Latin books - I feel better about completing the entire Henle 1 and getting a solid footing with grammar)

 

And the thing I'm really wondering about is, does anyone actually use Henle III and Henle IV?? Meaning, Third Year and Fourth Year Latin? I've searched and searched and found ONE poster who said she planned to do that. If you have either of these books, or have used them, can you tell me more about them? Are they mostly reading? Or is there more grammar study in them (either new or review)? I read on one thread that there is some grammar in Third Year. If you use/have used them, how did you go about it with your child or yourself? Can you use each of these in one year?

 

Are there online classes that use Henle III and IV? Are they one-year classes?

 

The reason I ask about III and IV is because most of the posts I found said that people go through Henle II then switch to online classes for Latin reading courses after intensive grammar study. I wonder why? Why not use Henle III and IV? (I always wonder why, when I don't see people using what I see recommended in WTM:D, since I've used and trusted AND been happy with most of the recs so far)

 

Finally, if you mostly doing Latin for the grammar/logical reasoning/English-shaping reasons, AND you are using Henle for this, how far did you/do you plan to go in Henle? Is Henle II good enough, or would you do Henle III or IV for some reason within these goals?

 

Thank you.

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Colleen,

 

I used Henle First and Second Year with my dd's after completing Matin Latin with them (they were 7 & 9 when we first began Latin).

 

When my eldest turned 11, I started working with them separately -- my eldest was much more engaged by the work and her younger sister needed to work more slowly.

 

We used Henle First Year with the goal of completing through at least unit 7 by the end of 8th grade year. Eldest got through unit 10, younger through unit 8 by that time. Both worked with Henle Second Year for 9th grade. They followed the syllabus as recommended in the Teacher's Manual -- this book was incredibly useful, I wish had found it earlier.

 

Like many others I moved my dd's into online classes for 10th grade. I just don't have the facility with Latin that I feel is required to progress beyond the grammar.

 

I chose Scholars Online because Dr McM works to encourage reading Latin rather than simply translating it. This is, to me, a happy medium between teaching Latin as a modern spoken language and teaching is as an exercise in decoding complex sentence structures.

 

hth

~Moira

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Dd uses Oeberg's Lingua Latina and is taking classes through Lone Pine Classical School. Karen is awesome.

 

Sometimes I wonder if something like Henle would have been a better fit for dd's learning style. We had a short stint with the Latin Road, but dd says when she did Latin Road, she couldn't read. She wants to continue with Lingua Latina because she wants to be able to read Latin. Dh also loves Lingua Latina and teaches it at his high school. The goal of reading Latin is important to us because we attend the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite Mass and the children receive their sacraments in Latin. It is a very important part of our lives. As my children mature I want them to be able to understant the Sacred Liturgy, and read the Vulgate Bible and Church documents in Latin to better know and defend their Faith.

 

With my youngers, I think we will do a grammatical approach for a few years before starting Lingua Latina just because it would be easier for me. I don't know if I agree that a grammatical approach really fosters logical thinking more than Lingua Latina. I think a lot of thinking goes on with Lingua Latina, probably even more than with other approaches. There's more than one way to skin a cat. This is just MHO. I am not a Latin scholar.

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My son used Henle 3! We spent a year on it after completing the Artes Latinae program. It covers readings in Cicero, Church readings, and 21 grammar lessons coordinated to some of the readings. There was nothing wrong with using it; but it just wasn't terribly engaging. We supplemented with the Amsco grammar review book and Excelability for Advanced Latin. He got a nice introduction to reading Latin, specifically Cicero, which was our goal that year. (Artes Latinae covers a lot of Caesar in the second year).

 

My daughter used Henle I and II. She covered Henle I in its entirety over three years (she was young), and then covered Henle II in ninth grade. She was able to do the bulk of the lessons in Henle II, but we skipped a few at the end when summer rolled around. Instead of moving on to Henle III, we used some of the Legamus transitional readers put out by Bolchazy-Carducci next. They're terrific for making the step into reading! After that, she went on to read authentic Latin in grades 10, 11, and 12. We used the AP materials available from Bolchazy-Carducci publishers. Even though the only official AP Latin right now is Vergil, they still sell the materials covering Catullus, Cicero, Horace, and Ovid. Their texts and workbooks are written for AP -level high schoolers, so they are full of study helps - much more so than Henle III and IV offer. I have Henle IV (readings in Vergil, Cicero, and others and accompanying grammar exercises), and greatly prefer the B-C materials for Vergil.

 

All of our Latin was self-study at home along with me, so I can't help you with on-line Latin options.

 

Our reasons for doing Latin are pretty simple - both my kids loved it:001_smile:. Being able to get to the stage of reading the Latin without struggling with the grammar and translating word-for-word was a wonderful accomplishment (for Mom, too!).The poetry of Vergil in the original is simply breath-taking. My math-daughter loves it so much that her college decision is being heavily weighted by the availability of Latin and classics courses.

 

~Kathy

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Instead of moving on to Henle III, we used some of the Legamus transitional readers put out by Bolchazy-Carducci next. They're terrific for making the step into reading!

~Kathy

 

Kathy,

 

Thanks for this explanation. Would you mind supplying the titles of the books you used from Bolchazy-Carducci once you finished Henle II? My son and I will finish Henle II mid next school year, and I'd like to move on to something that will help us transition into reading Latin.

 

To Colleen -- we used all of Henle I before moving onto Henle II, and I think it provided a good transition. We are on Lesson 5 in Henle II, and the material is all review for us with a few added grammar things and a few new vocabulary words. The review has been good so far, but the Henle II book moves quite a bit faster than Henle I, so I'm glad this is not the first time we are seeing this material. And we are planning to use Henle II over 1 year. We are using the Mother of Divine Grace Lesson plans for the pacing and the quizzes.

 

HTH,

Brenda

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Both worked with Henle Second Year for 9th grade. They followed the syllabus as recommended in the Teacher's Manual -- this book was incredibly useful, I wish had found it earlier.

 

Like many others I moved my dd's into online classes for 10th grade. I just don't have the facility with Latin that I feel is required to progress beyond the grammar.

 

Hi Moira,

 

Most of the Latin posts I read last night contained gems from you. Thank you for responding here.

 

I did have a look at that TM, because you had recommended it several times. I have another of the threads saved, so I can go back to that book, if I ever feel I need it. BTW, does it have Henle II scheduled out for just one year? It seems you did Henle II in one year. This is encouraging to hear. How much time did it take each day, and how many weeks was it scheduled for?

 

And while I have you here - when your dd applied to Dalhousie, she applied to the Classics dept., is that correct? Was Latin a requirement for that (or any foreign language)? Was there an opportunity to test out of university foreign language courses at Dal? If so, how did that work? (I should just call - it's local, but I figure why not ask someone who has recently BTDT)

 

The goal of reading Latin is important to us because we attend the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite Mass and the children receive their sacraments in Latin. It is a very important part of our lives. As my children mature I want them to be able to understant the Sacred Liturgy, and read the Vulgate Bible and Church documents in Latin to better know and defend their Faith.

 

I would never have thought of this - thank you for taking the time to explain!

 

My son used Henle 3! We spent a year on it after completing the Artes Latinae program. It covers readings in Cicero, Church readings, and 21 grammar lessons coordinated to some of the readings. There was nothing wrong with using it; but it just wasn't terribly engaging. We supplemented with the Amsco grammar review book and Excelability for Advanced Latin. He got a nice introduction to reading Latin, specifically Cicero, which was our goal that year. (Artes Latinae covers a lot of Caesar in the second year).

 

Yay!!! Finally someone who has used beyond Henle 2! Are the grammar lessons different material from books 1 and 2, or review from books 1 and 2? Are they the end of Latin grammar, or do you think there is more in book 4? Any particular reason to use the Amsco grammar review as opposed to the Henle Grammar, which reportedly covers all four Henle books?

 

My daughter used Henle I and II. She covered Henle I in its entirety over three years (she was young), and then covered Henle II in ninth grade. She was able to do the bulk of the lessons in Henle II, but we skipped a few at the end when summer rolled around. Instead of moving on to Henle III, we used some of the Legamus transitional readers put out by Bolchazy-Carducci next. They're terrific for making the step into reading! After that, she went on to read authentic Latin in grades 10, 11, and 12. We used the AP materials available from Bolchazy-Carducci publishers. Even though the only official AP Latin right now is Vergil, they still sell the materials covering Catullus, Cicero, Horace, and Ovid. Their texts and workbooks are written for AP -level high schoolers, so they are full of study helps - much more so than Henle III and IV offer. I have Henle IV (readings in Vergil, Cicero, and others and accompanying grammar exercises), and greatly prefer the B-C materials for Vergil.

 

Good to hear that someone else's child could do Henle II in one year of high school. I had been under the impression (from reading in WTM, I think) that it might be a two year course for some kids. What was her Henle II experience like - did you use a syllabus? Make up your own? How long did it take each day, and for how many weeks?

 

I read last night on those other threads about the fact that Henle III and IV don't have material that is covered on AP tests (and maybe NLE, I can't remember), and so this makes sense to me, if someone wants to do these tests.

 

OK, so - study helps in BC were preferable over Henle III and IV. Got it. Had you never found any kind of syllabus/TM for studying Henle III and IV?

 

You mention grammar exercises in Henle IV - again, are these new material, or review from previous books?

 

All of our Latin was self-study at home along with me, so I can't help you with on-line Latin options.

 

That's alright, I am hoping to figure out if this is an at-home option for us - it would save us money, if we decide to keep going after Henle 2.

 

Our reasons for doing Latin are pretty simple - both my kids loved it:001_smile:. Being able to get to the stage of reading the Latin without struggling with the grammar and translating word-for-word was a wonderful accomplishment (for Mom, too!).The poetry of Vergil in the original is simply breath-taking. My math-daughter loves it so much that her college decision is being heavily weighted by the availability of Latin and classics courses.

 

Cool! You make it sound like they acquired this reading ability for fun, rather than for testing purposes. This makes it sound desirable to me. :D

 

Thank you - your post really helped me.

 

To Colleen -- we used all of Henle I before moving onto Henle II, and I think it provided a good transition. We are on Lesson 5 in Henle II, and the material is all review for us with a few added grammar things and a few new vocabulary words. The review has been good so far, but the Henle II book moves quite a bit faster than Henle I, so I'm glad this is not the first time we are seeing this material. And we are planning to use Henle II over 1 year. We are using the Mother of Divine Grace Lesson plans for the pacing and the quizzes.

 

Thanks for confirming what I was thinking - doing ALL of Henle I would ease the way in Henle II. I'm just not comfortable with moving to a next level, without a good foundation in the previous level. I suppose Father Henle made it so kids could go on even with doing just part of book 1, simply because they were trying to do book 1 in one year, which is not our case since we are starting earlier.

 

How long are you spending on Henle II each day? For how many weeks?

 

Thank you all so much - this is VERY helpful!

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Yay!!! Finally someone who has used beyond Henle 2! Are the grammar lessons different material from books 1 and 2, or review from books 1 and 2? Are they the end of Latin grammar, or do you think there is more in book 4? Any particular reason to use the Amsco grammar review as opposed to the Henle Grammar, which reportedly covers all four Henle books?

 

 

The grammar lessons in Henle 3 were a combination of review (never a bad thing imho) and new material (eg, conditional sentences, which are a common feature in Cicero's writings). There are far fewer grammar exercises in Henle 4. We never used that volume, but from a quick glance the grammar there appears to be review, especially attuned to what the student will encounter in the Henle 4 readings.

 

The Amsco review book is intended for kids in Latin 3 and 4. It's divided into topical chapters, with exercises and answer key for each topic. It was easy to assign a section a week to keep up those grammar skills. The Henle grammar is strictly a reference volume (an excellent one!). We used it when we needed to look up a particular point of grammar.

 

Good to hear that someone else's child could do Henle II in one year of high school. I had been under the impression (from reading in WTM, I think) that it might be a two year course for some kids. What was her Henle II experience like - did you use a syllabus? Make up your own? How long did it take each day, and for how many weeks?

 

OK, so - study helps in BC were preferable over Henle III and IV. Got it. Had you never found any kind of syllabus/TM for studying Henle III and IV?

 

 

We used the Mother of Divine Grace syllabus for Henle II. It made it easy to schedule the text in one year, and the weekly quizzes and tests were nice to have. My daughter probably spent an average of an hour a day on Henle II for an academic year.

 

I never found any syllabi for Henle 3 or 4 myself.

 

~Kathy

Edited by Kathy in Richmond
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Brenda and Colleen,

Here are the texts we used at home for our beyond-Henle 2 Latin years:
We spent three years using these resources:)

Vergil Legamus transitional reader/ TM - one transitional reader was enough for dd, but I'd recommend using as many as needed - they're wonderful resources!

Vergil text/ tm

Vergil AP vocabulary cards

Catullus text/ tm

Catullus workbook / tm

Ovid text/ tm (An Ovid Reader by Ed DeHoratius; Focus Pullins publishing)

Ovid wkbk/ tm

Horace text/tm

Horace wkbk/ tm

Cicero text

These general resources proved useful over the years:

Classical Mythology text

Excelability in Advanced Latin / TM

Amsco Latin III/IV Review wkbk & key

REA study guides for AP and SAT II Latin exams

hth,

~Kathy

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The grammar lessons in Henle 3 were a combination of review (never a bad thing imho) and new material (eg, conditional sentences, which are a common feature in Cicero's writings). There are far fewer grammar exercises in Henle 4. We never used that volume, but from a quick glance the grammar there appears to be review, especially attuned to what the student will encounter in the Henle 4 readings.

 

The Amsco review book is intended for kids in Latin 3 and 4. It's divided into topical chapters, with exercises and answer key for each topic. It was easy to assign a section a week to keep up those grammar skills. The Henle grammar is strictly a reference volume (an excellent one!). We used it when we needed to look up a particular point of grammar.

 

 

 

We used the Mother of Divine Grace syllabi for Henle II. It made it easy to schedule the text in one year, and the weekly quizzes and tests were nice to have. My daughter probably spent an average of an hour a day on Henle II for an academic year.

 

I never found any syllabi for Henle 3 or 4 myself.

 

~Kathy

 

Thank you so much!!! This detailed info. is SO helpful. I don't feel so blind in my future Latin considerations - I've got solid facts about the rest of the Henle books now, as well as having info. about the various reasons for studying Latin all the way through to reading, with other courses, from other threads.

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All of our Latin was self-study at home along with me

 

OK, and after reading all that super-helpful info, THIS is now sticking out to me - WOW, what an accomplishment! Did you have a Latin background before your started teaching your kids? If not, what made you keep plowing through? I think, for high school, we are going to have to do as much at home as possible (financial reasons), so your posts are really encouraging to me, that it just might be possible for me to keep leading my kids in Latin for high school...

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How long are you spending on Henle II each day? For how many weeks?

 

Colleen,

 

We are spending about 1 hour a day on Henle II. The Mother of Divine Grace syllabus schedules it out over 32 weeks. We will finish through about week 10 this school year, then pick it up in the fall.

 

Once we're done with week 32, I think we'll try the transitional reader that Kathy recommended. It looks very helpful. Thanks again, Kathy!

 

Brenda

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OK, and after reading all that super-helpful info, THIS is now sticking out to me - WOW, what an accomplishment! Did you have a Latin background before your started teaching your kids? If not, what made you keep plowing through? I think, for high school, we are going to have to do as much at home as possible (financial reasons), so your posts are really encouraging to me, that it just might be possible for me to keep leading my kids in Latin for high school...

 

Well, no, I didn't have a background in Latin (only French). I started learning Latin with my older child 11 years ago when we started homeschooling, and continued it with both kids throughout the years. Why? I'm a do-it-yourselfer by nature, Latin was a fun challenge for me, and I enjoy the learning:). As we progressed, we found it more satisfying every year and just didn't want to give up. Also, financial constraints were important (we could reasonably outsource a little every year, but not too much) and time constraints (it proved more efficient for us to do this; online classes always took too much time away from my busy kids' lives). We enjoy learning with each other (most of the time:tongue_smilie:).

 

~Kathy

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We are spending about 1 hour a day on Henle II. The Mother of Divine Grace syllabus schedules it out over 32 weeks.

 

Thank you for this very helpful info.!!!!!! I searched and searched the other night just to find specifics like this.

 

Well, no, I didn't have a background in Latin (only French). I started learning Latin with my older child 11 years ago when we started homeschooling, and continued it with both kids throughout the years. Why? I'm a do-it-yourselfer by nature, Latin was a fun challenge for me, and I enjoy the learning:). As we progressed, we found it more satisfying every year and just didn't want to give up. Also, financial constraints were important (we could reasonably outsource a little every year, but not too much) and time constraints (it proved more efficient for us to do this; online classes always took too much time away from my busy kids' lives). We enjoy learning with each other (most of the time:tongue_smilie:).

 

~Kathy

 

:svengo: I can't tell you how relieved I am to read this - no Latin background yet you did it, you did it yourself THAT FAR, $ constraints, online classes taking time away that you did not want them to take....so many similarities - it is a relief to find someone who has traveled the path that I am traveling and desperately looking for answers for that will suit US in OUR situation. Because of your DIYness, you are SO going to be added to my contacts list on my control panel here, so I can pm you in the future if I need further help (I keep a list of posters who I believe I can glean from in the future, so I don't forget who I've gotten past help from).

 

I feel empowered today. :D Saving this thread to read on a day when I'm deflated again. :lol:

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I did have a look at that TM, because you had recommended it several times. I have another of the threads saved, so I can go back to that book, if I ever feel I need it. BTW, does it have Henle II scheduled out for just one year? It seems you did Henle II in one year. This is encouraging to hear. How much time did it take each day, and how many weeks was it scheduled for?

The teacher's manual is not a schedule rather it tells you what needs to be emphasized, what is likely to cause confusion, offers tips on drills, etc. It was a life saver for me. It functions like the teacher's edition of a text.

 

Also, from what I've read, Father Henle intended that students *not* complete Henle First Year before moving on to Second Year. Henle Second Year introduces the same material plus a little more that you find in the latter half of First Year and introduce reading of extended passages of adapted Latin.

 

And while I have you here - when your dd applied to Dalhousie, she applied to the Classics dept., is that correct? Was Latin a requirement for that (or any foreign language)? Was there an opportunity to test out of university foreign language courses at Dal? If so, how did that work? (I should just call - it's local, but I figure why not ask someone who has recently BTDT)

 

Like McGill, Dalhousie allows you to test out of certain things although it is less generous with AP credit. Prior Latin study isn't essential since they, too, offer beginner courses.

 

HTH

~Moira

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The teacher's manual is not a schedule rather it tells you what needs to be emphasized, what is likely to cause confusion, offers tips on drills, etc.

 

Aha! I *like* this kind of manual. I made up a study routine for Henle 1, after using the MP guides for a few weeks - they drove me crazy. But now we have a pretty good routine going, including memory work of vocab and grammar forms, plus writing out English to Latin translations (I let him do Latin to English orally, plus most other exercises - couldn't think of a good reason to have him write those out). And writing certain things in his notebook as we come cross them, like new grammar forms, new vocab, new rules, new usage notes, new derivatives, the occasional practice conjugation or declension. I wonder if the TM is like that. I bet it would come in handy for Henle 2 for me, since Henle 2 seems to operate differently. Thanks for explaining it.

 

Dalhousie allows you to test out of certain things although it is less generous with AP credit. Prior Latin study isn't essential since they, too, offer beginner courses.

 

This is all good to know, thank you! It would be financially helpful, if my kids want to go to university around here, for them to be able to test out of beginner courses.

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