Lori D... Can I pick your brain on Lord of the Rings...

[Heather in VA]

I just found an old post of your where you talk about doing so many of the epics along with the LOTR study. I am considering something like this for my middle daughter. She is very bright but I've struggled through our whole homeschool time to get her to have any interest in anything history. This year she read and adored the Hobbit. She also sparked a love for mythology. But I still struggle to find any hook that might make history even a bit appealing to her. My oldest suggested I take more of an Omnibus approach with her (she's using VP's Omnibus) and use the LOTR study I was already considering and expand it to read myths and discuss the historical content. I wasn't sure this would work because to me the LOTR is a "Middle Ages" study but it seems like you approached it from more of an "ancient" perspective. I'm not even sure what I'm asking except to hear your feedback on your experience with the LLoLoTR and how it might work to help hook a student who likes LOTR and mythology and maybe get them to be a bit more interested in the surrounding history. Is there any historical context in the program itself? How much work would I need to do to add it myself? It seems like expanding to use the epics as well would really make it a long study. Did you do it in a year or would you recommend two (which would be fine with me too). Is this a dumb idea LOL? (seriously - it's ok to tell me if it is).

 

Any BTDT advice would be great.

 

Thanks

Heather

[Guest]

Check out this website:

http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/features/lordoftheringstrilogy/lessons

 

They have some interesting historical activities and reading links. I loved their approach.

[Heather in VA]

Thanks KarenAnne. I'll take a look.

 

Heather

[Lori D.]

Is there any historical context in the program itself?

 

Not in the way I think you mean. LLftLotR is a literature program, and what historical context there is gives background to the author and his times for better understanding the work. There is a little medieval history background to better understand some of the specific cultures within the trilogy. And there is a little historical background for better understanding some of the works covered in the additional units of material (Beowulf; Sir Gawain and the Green Knight; some poetry).

 

 

 

How much work would I need to do to add it myself?

 

Depends on what you want the program to do for you. It is a complete literature program (vocabulary, teaches literary terms, comprehension and discussion questions, writing assignment ideas). It is not a full English course (you would still need to add spelling, grammar, and writing instruction). It is not a unit study (does not extend into other school subjects such as history, science, the arts, etc.).

 

 

 

It seems like expanding to use the epics as well would really make it a long study. Did you do it in a year or would you recommend two (which would be fine with me too).

 

LLftLotR is designed for grades 7-12. There are 2 suggested schedules on the website, with younger students doing less, older students doing more. You can certainly take more than a year to do it -- several people on this board with younger students have done that (or people who wanted to do LLftLotR in addition to other literature).

 

The suggested route for LLftLotR for high school students is that you would read the 3 books of the LotR -- AND then either 3-6 other typical high school literature works, OR works that are covered in the additional units of LLftLotR:

- the Iliad

- Beowulf

- Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

- a work on King Arthur

 

That comes out to about the workload for the literature portion of a typical high school English course.

 

 

 

 

 

I do think it is easier to make a history connection LLftLotR and with the history of the middle ages, since not only does LotR have a medieval culture feel, but most of the additional literature in LLftLotR (Beowulf, etc.) is set in the middle ages.

 

What I meant by LLftLotR working well for us when we were reading ancient literature is that many of the ancient works are epics/mythology, and LotR also is very much an epic, with Tolkien often alluding to the past history, poetry, and mythology of Middle Earth within the books themselves.

 

 

HOWEVER, I note from your signature that your middle DD is 10yo. That's pretty young for doing LLftLotR; you might find it more enjoyable either to wait for a few years, or to do it with both the 14yo AND the 10yo together, gently, slowly, and not worry about trying to connect it to history.

 

 

 

... middle daughter. She is very bright but I've struggled through our whole homeschool time to get her to have any interest in anything history. This year she read and adored the Hobbit. She also sparked a love for mythology. But I still struggle to find any hook that might make history even a bit appealing to her. My oldest suggested I take more of an Omnibus approach with her (she's using VP's Omnibus)

 

 

It sounds like your real desire is to help 10yo DD enjoy history more, with LLftoLotR as a possible means to that end. May I ask, what are you currently using for history, and what about it is not appealing to DD?

 

If 10yo DD really enjoys story, perhaps go with more story-like history materials? SWB's Story of the World? Historical fiction? Maybe using books like the Eyewitness series with loads of illustrations and captions so as you read a historical fiction, you can also be looking through a matching time period Eyewitness book and seeing what the tools looked like, the clothing style, etc. How about trips to museums and history re-enactments? Or would making the foods, playing the games, dressing in the clothes, making a craft, listening to the music etc. make the historical times come alive? There are books at the library that can help there -- perhaps as she doing an activity, read aloud short excerpts from the history text to give context to the activity?

 

If you were to use LLftLotR to spark an interest in history, then you are right, it would best work with medieval history.

 

Also, while it may be a case of either DD maturing a little and discovering history can be interesting -- or, finding what will fit her learning style to help her connect with history -- it's also possible she may never be very interested in history. Not everyone is. There are some good comments in this recent thread on that topic.

 

At any rate, I hope I was able to answer some of your questions specifically on LLftLotR. Below are some links to help you see more clearly what LLftLotR DOES cover. BEST of luck in finding what works for history for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

LLftLotR curriculum

LLftLotR table of contents

LLftLotR samples

LLftLotR literary terms covered

LLftLotR middle school schedule

LLftLotR high school schedule

[Heather in VA]

Lori,

 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I really have tried everything I can think of to spark some kind of interest in history with this one. I've done the crafty thing, the historical fiction, the field trips - well she loved our trip to Italy but unless someone else is paying we can't do that every year LOL. I know she might never love it. Frankly I don't. I find it more interesting now than I did when I was in school and history was a really boring textbook and a list of things to memorize. She will do what I tell her but after trying all kinds of different things (Story of the World has become a near 4-letter word to her) we settled on Veritas Press because it gets done. She also doesn't whine too much at the Foster books. She's reading George Washington's World right now. Her passions are math and science. That's great. But I really want to try to get her interested in some way.

 

Since I lean a bit LCC, I usually have them reading some book from the LCC list or something similar. This year one that I had her read was The Golden Fleece. She adored it. Suddenly I look over and she's talking with my oldest, who does have a passion for history, asking all kinds of questions about the myth, the Greeks, etc. It is the first time she's shown any kind of voluntary interest in anything like that.

 

My original plan, before stopping to rethink - was to finish our cycle next year. Have her go through the VP modern cards and SOTW 4 - since it's about all I find that is decent for that time period. She'd survive it. And then do LLoLOTR as our literature program to help up the work and prepare her for Omnibus - which starts in 7th. I know my signature says she's 10 but she's almost 11 and will be in the 6th grade. Academically she's 7th grade. I'm not in need of a writing program as we use Classical Writing.

 

I'm just wondering if there is a better way. I don't think I care nearly as much about the time period we do as I do finding some way to take that spark and grow it. I think my oldest was right that using the myths and epics she likes as a jumping off point might be the best way. I'm just not sure how to go about doing it.

 

Heather

[Kfamily]

Do you think she might like the D'Aulaires Greek Myths? You could let her do the book with the study guide from Memoria Press...

Edited April 15, 2010 by Kfamily

[elegantlion]

Frankly, after a trip to Italy I might find any history readings to be dull.

 

Do you think she would be interested in mythology of other countries? If so you might thinking of picking up some of the mythology books listed in LCC. That might spark an interest in history.

[Rebecca VA]

You know what I'd do if I were you? I would give her a textbook-free finish to her history cycle. If she's doing (or going to do) Modern History, I'd put together every DVD I could find on the 20th century -- about every war, every president, every invention, every American Experience (PBS) production -- and make her watch one per day, in chronological order. I'd also get together as many really good fiction books for girls that are set during the 20th century as I could find. Gloria Whelan is a wonderful author who has written MANY books set all over the world. I *love* her books, though they're really targeted for middle-school girls. I'd play 20th century music and watch some of the most interesting 20th century movies.

 

Making the 20th century fun and exciting will do more than any textbook in the world to inspire her imagination. It isn't hard to make it exciting because the 20th century WAS exciting! Play it up.

[Lori D.]

...This year one that I had her read was The Golden Fleece. She adored it. Suddenly I look over and she's talking with my oldest, who does have a passion for history, asking all kinds of questions about the myth, the Greeks, etc. It is the first time she's shown any kind of voluntary interest in anything like that... I'm just wondering if there is a better way. I don't think I care nearly as much about the time period we do as I do finding some way to take that spark and grow it. I think my oldest was right that using the myths and epics she likes as a jumping off point might be the best way. I'm just not sure how to go about doing it.

 

 

Ouch. I feel your pain Heather. I LOVE to learn, and assumed our DSs would too. Wrong! Both, especially younger DS, find ANYthing remotely related to school, education, learning, etc. to be a torture. :tongue_smilie: I spent years standing on my head, doing backflips, researching for *the perfect curriculum* -- or at least the one they would like -- and working to find games, activities, etc. that would make their eyes light up and love learning.

 

Finally, I realized that learning is NOT their passion and I should stop trying to either make it their passion, or even expect that it ever will be anything other than a requirement to them. That allowed me to stop investing so much work into trying to make school interesting and fun for them, and we have all moved into a much less stressful and more realistic mindset:

 

- Sorry you don't like it, but school is required -- so stop complaining/whining.

- Here are the subjects we MUST do whether you like them or not.

- My responsibility: I'm willing to work with you to find programs that connect better for you, or at least are more tolerable for you.

- Your responsibility: do the work without complaining or groaning; do your best; and if problems arise, tell me in words rather than pitch a fit.

- Together: we can look for options and programs together so you have more input and more buy-in.

 

So, we don't do some of the programs that *I* would have loved, BUT, there is a lot less griping and a lot more just doing it. Afterall, if they were in a school they would have NO choice over what material is used and what assignments and projects are required to learn the history (or whatever subject). :)

 

 

Don't know if that will help at all with your DD and history. I do think you might have pretty good success using LLftLotR as a springboard into middle ages history. Also, the link Karen Anne provided looked interesting, though the heading same that was for secondary (high school) level teaching.

 

I also like your idea to use DD's interest in mythology as an "in" for ancient history. Especially encouraging is that younger DD is talking to older DD -- a lot of learning can go on through sibling discussions, or allowing a child to ask quesitons without trying to turn it into a school session or learning opportunity. ;) Is there something they can do together literature-wise or history-wise to encourage group discussion with you? What about letting DD pick out some ancient Greek mythology AND some non-fiction books on ancient Greece at the library, let her figure out what interests her, and then have her tell you at the end of the week what she found of interest?

 

As a math/science person, she may find books like these of interest that combine a little history with science and scientists:

- Science of the Past series (ancient Egypt, Greece, Mesopotamia, Rome, China, India)

- Brendan the Navigator (Fritz)

- Archimedes and the Door to Science (Bendick)

- Galen and the Gateway to Medicine (Bendick)

- Along Came Galileo (Bendick)

- books by John Tiner, which give a bit of historical context while focusing on famous discoveries and scientists (History of Medicine; Exploring Planet Earth; World of Chemistry; World of Physics; World of Mathematics; etc.)

- Beautiful Feet History of Science curriculum = http://www.bfbooks.com/s.nl/it.A/id.285/.f

 

 

Books with small "bites" of history with lots of visuals and history factoids might be more appealing to a math/science mindset:

- Usborne History of the Twentieth Century (Hopkinson)

- DK Eyewitness series (Mythology; Ancient Greece; Ancient Egypt; Ancient Rome; Mesopotamia; Ancient China; American Revolution; WW1; Medieval Life; etc. etc.)

 

 

Another thought: does 10yo DD like documentaries? There are a lot of history documentaries on ancient cultures and peoples, and they are often so visual they don't feel like learning (well, at least to me they don't!). Or, if that's too history-like, how about some feature films set in ancient times, and throw in the occasional comment (being careful not to overdo)? You can really absorb (without realizing) a lot about key people and events -- and of course clothing, architecture, etc. -- by watching a feature film set in a historical time period. AND, feature films are very story-like!

 

BEST of luck Heather with your history efforts! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Heather in VA]

Thank you all so much for your responses. I'm letting this "sit" in my head for a bit and considering how to proceed. I am typically a 'do what I tell you to' type of homeschooler. My kids know this and in general the whining is a minimum (except this winter when our public schools were out for 2 weeks with snow and we did school LOL). Anyway, she will do whatever I choose and doesn't expect me to find something she loves. Earlier in our homeschooling I wasn't as harsh about it and I do believe in taking some time to find their learning style etc. but that time is past with her so she knows that what I choose is what she gets. We ended up with VP and it's working so I didn't consider a change. But now that I see a spark that wasn't there before, I'm willing to rethink and see if I can take advantage of that and still meet my academic goals.

 

She told me today she'd like to read the original The Odyssey. She recently finished A Children's Homer. I'm thinking maybe some mythology, an epic or two, and some non-fiction books. I like that she's talking to her older sister but I don't want to put too much necessity on that for a couple of reasons. First, some days they love each other - some days it's WW3 in here. But more importantly, my oldest is going to be doing Omnibus 4 next year along with a heavy load so I don't want to overburden her. But it is a motivation to do ancients with this dd too. If they are both in the same time period it will spark more natural conversations.

 

I'm going to continue to mull this. I wasn't even considering a change in plan until a few days ago so I need to ponder.

 

You all are so much help. I really appreciate it.

 

Heather