?? to get ds13 ready for pre-algebra. Those who've been there, done that help please?

[home4school]

My ds13 is struggling, yes struggling, with TT7. I want to get him ready for prealgebra for the fall. He struggles with not enough practice to grasp a new concept. For example, finding the LCD. He would ask me every time one of those problems came up in a lesson bc he "didn't remember" how to do it. When something like this happens, I print off worksheets and work with him on just that type of problem for a few days until it clicks. Then he seems to be okay.

 

I have been supplementing TT with MEP bc I don't think TT challenges him to think out of the box. He can do lessons in the book, but if you ask him something math related in the real world, he just looks at you like you're speaking another language. He can't apply anything he's learned. Since we've been using MEP, I see an improvement in that area. He actually can apply things we've covered. I've even taken him back to MEP 5!

 

I'm growing weary of looking thru MEP to see what needs to be covered and then printing and trying to do both TT and MEP. Instead of "catching up", the supplementing is putting us farther behind.

 

Some of the worksheets I print off to help cement a topic come from Math Mammoth. I think he would be ok going into the 6A MM book that just came out. My question is, do you think that's what we need at this point? Jump ship to this and pray we get to were we need to be soon or continue to trudge along with TT7 and MEP?

 

I'm leaning toward MUS prealgebra bc I think the repetition of the lesson layout would help cement things. Do you think he could go from 6AMM into MUS prealgebra? Here's a link to topics covered in 6A:

 

http://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/grade_6.php

 

Here's what she suggests to get ready for prealgebra for those who can't wait on 6B:

 

For those of you who need something to replace Math Mammoth 6-B, it would need to cover percent, integers, geometry (volume, angle calculations), statistics, and probability. It is not possible to find just one resources with these topics; however, you could use both Singapore Math Primary Mathematics 5B, standards edition (not the US edition), and Singapore Math Primary Mathematics 6B, standards edition (not the US edition). Those two books do also have topics you could skip (decimals), and topics I consider a bit advanced and more fitting for pre-algebra (equations with integers, constructions, complementary & supplementary angles).

There are probably other options as well, but it is not easy to find one single book or resource just for the exact same topics, and no more, that I plan to put to Math Mammoth 6-B.

 

I thought a good grasp of the 4 ops, fractions, decimals, and %s would have you prepared enough for prealgebra.

 

I'm thinking stop MEP and TT and just go thru MM6A thoroughly and then start MUS prealgebra. Opinions from those who've gone one before me on this? I just want him to be confident in math and not always feel like he's not getting it and behind.

 

Thanks for any input!

 

 

Kim

[Alyce]

and I used MUS all the way through with my math smart dd. She's done superb in college and was top of her class in calculus so the program is good. For my son we ran into problems. In the Upper level courses the author begins to expect the kids to be able to use what they've learned to figure things out on their own so there are problems in the worksheets on concepts that weren't taught. Dd was able to get through this but it frustrated Ds horribly so we switched. I'm using JannTx recommendation: Lial's. The explanations are very clear and the review is great. Ds is finally getting the upper level math courses and doing great. Lial's has a pre-algebra program called Basic College Math. Don't let the name panic you. It is a really good book that teaches Pre-Algebra. It is used in CC as part of their remedial courses if I understand right. Plus you can buy it used for fairly cheap and probably sell it here if you need to.

[Susan C.]

We had the same problem with spiral over here, TT and Saxon didn't give enough practice to learn the concepts. Chalkdust was too hard (a college level book), so we have settled on BJU (with dvds from Algebra 1 on). The teachers on the dvds review what you need to do the lesson, that alone makes them worth the cost!

[Storm Bay]

What I would do if I were in this situation is to combine MUS preAlgebra with something like Life of Fred Fractions (if your ds sill needs more work on this) & Decimals (2 books) or with LoF pre-Algebra once you finish the MM6A. The Fractions & Decimals books do make a pre-Algebra program. I think the combination could be very successful, as both are very good at showing math, but since they do it differently, it can really help to cement things and to alleviate what you have already experienced with TT (not being able to to the math outside of TT.) I might even add some of the Key to... books for weaker skills. We haven't done Math Mammoth (Singapore users here), but we have used MUS Alpha through Zeta (minus Delta) and we do have the teaching DVD for MUS pre-Algebra for one of my dc. I really like MEP, too, but it's a lot of printing and very teacher intensive (well, when I used it last summer I did the entire lesson given for teachers, because that's what made it different for us.)

[mcilvoy6]

We had the same issue with my ds not grasping TT7...we recently switched to LOF........and he gets it! No more complaining about Math!

My dd just started with LOF after Saxon...and it's been a success too! :lol:

[Judy in WA]

We are combining Chalkdust Pre-Algebra (and now Elementary Algebra) with Life Of Fred. My dd (13) likes LOF because, in her own words, "It doesn't treat you like an idiot. The problems are written as if you are clever enough to understand. In Chalkdust, they treat you like a robot."

[melmichigan]

Why not a quicker run through Epsilon and Zeta? That is what we are doing right now before we start MUS prealgebra, since my DD is new to the program.

[Willow]

Teaching Textbooks almost killed my kids interest in maths. It was SUCH a relief to find MUS. Go back as far as you need to (we went back to gamma) and set off again. It didn't take long to do gamma and delta. Epsilon took longer, Zeta we romped through in a couple of months, and now (aged almost 14) we are halfway through Pre-algebra, and we LOVE maths!

[home4school]

For my son we ran into problems. In the Upper level courses the author begins to expect the kids to be able to use what they've learned to figure things out on their own so there are problems in the worksheets on concepts that weren't taught.

 

Gosh, I hate to hear that! Finding a math program that works here seems about impossible!

 

Thanks for all the suggestions on LoF. I'll give it a look.

 

Any other suggestions to get us where we need to be for 8th for a non-mathy child?

 

Thanks again for all your replies!

 

Kim

[Teachin'Mine]

Saxon 8/7 might help him to get more practice on the different topics. Maybe have him take the tests, and when he gets to the point of getting less than 85 percent or so, then start with the lessons there. If he does well with 8/7, he should be well prepared for Algebra. One thing we noticed is that the last 30 lessons or so introduce a lot of new material and were more challenging than the rest.

 

On edit: I'm sorry - I totally misread the original post. I love the suggestion about having a reference of how to do different types of problems so he can look at that to refresh his memory. I would also just look for workbooks which focus on fractions - they are available in Barnes and Noble and other bookstores. It sounds like Saxon wouldn't be the way to go, but based on what you've said, I'd try the 7/6, not the 8/7, if I wanted to try to fill in some info and get more practice problems. The mental math is also excellent, as well as the facts practice sheets. I think one is even available in the for sale forum. : )

Edited April 10, 2010 by Teachin'Mine

[Mom22ns]

Why not a quicker run through Epsilon and Zeta? That is what we are doing right now before we start MUS prealgebra, since my DD is new to the program.

 

:iagree:

 

We did LOF fractions and decimals in less than a semester. DS had fun with it, but I just didn't feel like the concept were sticking.

This year he went back and did MUS Epsilon and Zeta and LOF Pre-Algebra for 7th grade. It has been very productive. Now I can finally say those concepts are all cemented and he is ready to move on.

 

For 8th grade I'm planning on having him run through MUS Pre-Algebra then start Algebra. I doubt he will finish MUS Algebra in 8th, but thats ok - he can finish in 9th if he needs to. We do math in summer too - lightly. Ds has fun with Fred and will continue to do a Fred book each summer. I think its a great supplement to MUS.

[Storm Bay]

:iagree:

 

We did LOF fractions and decimals in less than a semester. DS had fun with it, but I just didn't feel like the concept were sticking.

This year he went back and did MUS Epsilon and Zeta and LOF Pre-Algebra for 7th grade. It has been very productive. Now I can finally say those concepts are all cemented and he is ready to move on.

 

 

 

 

fwiw, it might not be the curricula as much as learning factions can take time. Two out of my three dc have benefitted greatly from doing fractions with more than one program to help it all stick. Some dc do one program with review. LoF doesn't have tons of practice (well, you can do as many bridges as you want) and there are some dc who simply need a lot of practice. I like MUS, but we found some of the things on Epsilon extremely confusing for dd. For eg, the way Mr. Demme teaches how to divide fractions may work well for some, but it totally confused her. This is the same man who convinced this same dd to regroup (she had argued with me tooth and nail over that with Singapore Math) and helped her in a few other areas. This is one of the reasons we use more than one math curricula at a time for my younger two.

[WTMindy]

One thing I would recommend is for things like GCF or LCM (or any other math topic) is to make himself a math reference book, where he has to write out instructions and/or examples that make sense to him. Then, when he gets to a GCF problem, he just goes back to his reference book and reminds himself.

 

I think ALEKS is a good gap filler/review tool (http://www.aleks.com). I don't personally recommend it as a stand-alone curriculum, but it might be nice to give him for a summer as a review before starting pre-algebra.

[jibaker103]

My son was struggling horribly until we switched to Lial's Essential Math and BCM. It is now making perfect sense to him at age 14 (8th grade).

 

To make it work I had to take over the teaching instead of relying on a CD/DVD and we do a lesson over 2 days. The first we go through the examples, sidebars, and a few even problems on the whiteboard. He is assigned all of the odd problems as homework. He corrects all mistakes made but if he scores lower than a 85% we go back over the lesson at the whiteboard and he is assigned the remaining even problems.

 

It has worked so far and I think we will be on schedule working throughout the summer for him to start Algebra 1 for 9th grade.

[Sumiller]

Have you looked at Systematic Math? It worked for my ds who hit the proverbial wall with Saxon 7/6 and someone recommended I check it out. Not only did it work for ds #1 but ds #2 is working his way through it as well and getting it! What I like about it is that it is not a spiral. The concepts are taught in modules with lots of practice.

 

You can check it out at www.systemath.com

 

:)

[LDSMom]

Saxon 8/7 might help him to get more practice on the different topics. Maybe have him take the tests' date=' and when he gets to the point of getting less than 85 percent or so, then start with the lessons there. If he does well with 8/7, he should be well prepared for Algebra. One thing we noticed is that the last 30 lessons or so introduce a lot of new material and were more challenging than the rest.

 

On edit: I'm sorry - I totally misread the original post. I love the suggestion about having a reference of how to do different types of problems so he can look at that to refresh his memory. I would also just look for workbooks which focus on fractions - they are available in Barnes and Noble and other bookstores. It sounds like Saxon wouldn't be the way to go, but based on what you've said, I'd try the 7/6, not the 8/7, if I wanted to try to fill in some info and get more practice problems. The mental math is also excellent, as well as the facts practice sheets. I think one is even available in the for sale forum. : )[/quote']

I'm just taking my son OUT of Saxon 7/6. He did great on 6/5 and opted to continue with Saxon. But this year he is doing horribly (less than a third correct each day). But he is doing great on his supplemental pages of Key to Fractions. The general consensus on another discussion list is that the variety of Saxon is too confusing, as well as not enough focused practice on new concepts. He "can" do most problems if I walk him through them, but he doesn't really seem to know why. We are now planning on going to MUS Zeta and continuing with the Key to Fractions since he has the set and has no problem with them. I've considered the Math Mammoth but haven't liked that as much as MUS.

 

Linda

[Teachin'Mine]

I guess my misunderstanding again. I thought the OP said they were struggling with TT7 - I didn't see any mention of Saxon. Please just ignore my posts. :001_smile:

[LDSMom]

I quoted your post in my message. You clearly suggested using Saxon. That was why I responded about the Saxon.

[Teachin'Mine]

I did suggest Saxon. I was simply explaining that I didn't read anything in the original post in this thread about Saxon not having worked.

 

Again my apologies.

[Handmaiden]

I would not use Chalkdust pre-algebra with a struggling math student. It's very rigorous, and the textbook assumes you don't need hand-holding.

[home4school]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

I love the idea of the reference book, Mindy. I have been making up index cards with refreshers on them for him, but he never uses them unless I remind him. Maybe him making his own notebook would be better.

 

I just get so overwhelmed by all the choices, there's just too many. I just don't feel like TT is getting the job done. Things are sticking and he just can't apply math outside of that book. I have to find something to use to get him up to speed and then have to find a pre-algebra program! :(

 

I was thinking Math Mammoth to get him caught up. I think we could jump in at 6A and be ok, but I just don't know how that will work for him. He really gets distracted with a lot of busyness on the pages, too many problems, not enough white space, etc. TT actually was great for that bc the pages aren't too busy. I read a post on the K8 board about the MM pages being too busy and not enough white space for that poster's child and went back to reread it, but I can't find it now. I wish I knew what program she went with!:tongue_smilie:

 

I think Saxon would terrify him just to look at the pages, as well as the more traditional textbooks. I had pretty much settled on MUS for upper level, but after reading more posts about instruction not being clear in the upper levels, I'm getting cold feet on that.

 

What about MM 6A w/LOF Decimals and then Fractions over the summer, then MUS w/LOF for the uppers? Do you feel that would ready him for MUS and LoF prealgebra?

 

Thanks again so much.

 

Kim

[LeslieinCA]

Since we've been using MEP, I see an improvement in that area. He actually can apply things we've covered. I've even taken him back to MEP 5!

 

I'm growing weary of looking thru MEP to see what needs to be covered and then printing and trying to do both TT and MEP. Instead of "catching up", the supplementing is putting us farther behind.

 

 

 

Hi Kim,

I was struck with your noticing that you have seen improvement with MEP. Why not just use MEP all the way instead of trying to make it a supplemental? Yr 5 is prealgebra...in a nutshell anyway. My oldest upon completion of MEP YR5 went right into Algebra 1 and is doing very well. My second dd is almost finished with YR 5 and will begin A1.

 

MEP is a wonderful program and quite well rounded. It seems to me a 'no brainer' to try the program where you are getting results. Perhaps you are doing too many things? Perhaps just one will click with your son.

He may be experiencing sensory overload with all the switching around and back-and-forthing...just a thought.

 

I would try MEP whole heartedly. It turned my every day of (my girls) crying during math into (so far) 2 girls that LOVE math! Oh, glorious day!

 

:)Leslie

[home4school]

I was afraid MEP wouldn't be "enough" to get him ready. I will spend today going thru it and see where it would put us. Your girls went from Yr 5 into Alg 1??? I need to give it a better look, it sounds like! :)

 

Thanks for suggesting this. I just automatically thought we needed to "buy a program" to get caught up.

 

Blessings,

Kim

[LeslieinCA]

Hi Kim,

 

My oldest finished yr5 and began yr6. Yr6 was too difficult for me to keep up with her so I put her in Thinkwell at the pre-algebra level. I wanted to make sure she didn't 'miss' anything so I figured starting at pre-A was 'safest'.

Thinkwell's pre-A was bascially a review of MEP yr5. She said she "knows all that stuff", so I moved her up to A-1. She is doing fantastic.

 

MEP is MORE than enough. It is teacher/mommy intensive, but it was a God-send for our family. I got rid of everything else and have never looked back! It is not meant to be a supplemental, but is in fact a very full, complete program. It is essential you use the Lesson Plans and the Student Practice book. Do not use only the Student practice book. The 'meat' of MEP is truly in the Lesson Plan that you must do with him.

 

I would suggest, since your son has proven to do well with it, and I am assuming you do not have issues with spending the time with him, that you give yourself (and your son) a few weeks with yr5. Do it everyday, diligently, and all the way...meaning do the Lesson Plan as the teacher and have him do the exercises in his practice book. See where that takes you.

 

What I love about MEP and its spiral method, is how many times the concepts come around and how each time is different. What sticks with one child may not with another...but not to worry because it will come around again a different way. And I don't mean months later...often the same concept will be explained differently within the same week! I have found with my dc, (I have 4 using MEP) the light bulb goes on at different times. THAT, my friend, is wonderful :D

 

If you don't know about the yahoo group for MEP it is here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mep-homeschoolers/

 

Everyone over there is really helpful if you get stuck. And you are more than welcome to PM me if you like.

 

:)Leslie

Edited April 11, 2010 by LeslieinCA

[Storm Bay]

I did suggest Saxon. I was simply explaining that I didn't read anything in the original post in this thread about Saxon not having worked.

 

Again my apologies.

 

 

I wouldn't fret about it when this happens.:). It's not unusual when someone to suggests another math curriculum, such as you in suggesting Saxon instead of TT, for someone to explain why that suggested curriculum didn't work for their dc and why. I, for one, have found this type of posting very helpful, particularly at times when I've had trouble with a curricula and have asked for help. I've also suggested math curricula and had people on the same thread not like it for various, and sometimes even good, reasons.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Karin

[Storm Bay]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

IWhat about MM 6A w/LOF Decimals and then Fractions over the summer, then MUS w/LOF for the uppers? Do you feel that would ready him for MUS and LoF prealgebra?

 

Thanks again so much.

 

Kim

 

 

I think this plan sounds good. In my experience the only way to know for sure is to do it, but I think you'll get the benefits of Mr. Demme's teaching with the visuals along with the benefits of LoF. They may not tie together neatly until you're done (meaning you can't necessarily do the same topic in each at the same time,) but we haven't worried about that. Of course, we haven't used MUS uppers, just up through Zeta & then one lecture on pre-Algebra.

[Storm Bay]

I was afraid MEP wouldn't be "enough" to get him ready. I will spend today going thru it and see where it would put us. Your girls went from Yr 5 into Alg 1??? I need to give it a better look, it sounds like! :)

 

Thanks for suggesting this. I just automatically thought we needed to "buy a program" to get caught up.

 

Blessings,

Kim

 

 

MEP is complete and you don't need to buy anything to go with it. We do it as summer math only because we already have other great math we use (bought for older sibling before we heard about MEP.) Of course, if you like to do more than one just because you're like that, then that's a horse of a different colour.

[Teachin'Mine]

I wouldn't fret about it when this happens.:). It's not unusual when someone to suggests another math curriculum, such as you in suggesting Saxon instead of TT, for someone to explain why that suggested curriculum didn't work for their dc and why. I, for one, have found this type of posting very helpful, particularly at times when I've had trouble with a curricula and have asked for help. I've also suggested math curricula and had people on the same thread not like it for various, and sometimes even good, reasons.

 

Karin it's no problem at all. Mystery was solved when it became apparent that the person responding to my post wasn't the OP. ;)

 

I agree! Knowing what doesn't work for someone and why is as valuable as knowing what does work and why. :) Makes me glad we have so many curriculum choices so we can find what does work for our own. :)

[LauraQ]

What I would do if I were in this situation is to combine MUS preAlgebra with something like Life of Fred Fractions (if your ds sill needs more work on this) & Decimals (2 books) or with LoF pre-Algebra once you finish the MM6A. The Fractions & Decimals books do make a pre-Algebra program. I

 

I'll second LOF recommend since the OP mentioned that her son just isn't applying things to real-life situations. Most math programs include lots of drill on working through the math, and just a couple of word problems per lesson. LOF is practically *all* world problems. Some children will do well with LOF alone (both of mine have been fine through Fractions & Decimals) but some will need supplements for the arithmetic part starting in Algebra I. For dd who is in Algebra, I have Jacobs Algebra that I use to supplement LOF only in areas where she needs reinforcement because it gives her more practice with certain types of problems.

 

Other than needing more drill in certain areas (easier to supplement IMO than need for more real-life applications and word problems) I'm quite pleased with LOF, as is dh who is *way* more math savvy than I am.