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I just got home from subbing in Pre-Calc and Alg 2 in our local public high school. A few years back our school switched to CPM math as the head of the math dept loves it (she goes around getting other districts to switch to it too). The district does Everyday Math prior to Alg 1.

 

What I saw today were Alg 2 kids that didn't know how to solve for x or do fractions meaning I couldn't exactly teach the lesson on transitions for x = y^2 problems very easily.

 

AND Pre-Calc kids that didn't know how to do fractions either making Trig identities/proofs rather difficult to teach. They were a little better with period and frequency problems, but not when they were supposed to learn it themselves in their groups. Then they just sat there bewildered - even when I gave the hints we're supposed to give.

 

About half of the kids in each class has just given up and won't even try as they feel they are too lost (we're halfway through the year with block scheduling). I know a bunch of these kids. They are not low on the academic side of things. Of the kids that haven't given up, a couple get it somewhat, the rest copy (in their groups).

 

I see this and other similar inadequacies practically every time I'm in for math - across teachers and specific classes. I wish there were something I could do about it... but I can't. Even if I were to teach full time, I can't change the curriculum our school uses. (I have registered my complaint about it, but to deaf ears.)

 

To top it off, my own soon to be 9th grader wants to return to ps - and we're letting him (obviously not for the math, but he has other issues). One of the conditions is that we work on math after school each day. Otherwise, he's got no chance of actually learning a thing IMO.

 

And yes, the majority of kids who graduate from our hs need remedial math when they get to college.

 

Ok, vent's over. If I put it here, I should avoid issues with the ps as no one from there should be looking here. I hope I feel better soon. I wish, wish, WISH I could get them to use a better curriculum - and pretty much ANYTHING has to be better IMO.

 

ps If anyone out there is using CPM and/or Everyday Math and it works for you - more power to you and to each our own. But in our setting... yuck! (It works adequately for a few kids, but I suspect those could do well with other programs too.)

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This is one of the main reasons we decided to homeschool and pull our oldest daughter from school--the everyday math was and is hideous!!! It makes me soooooo mad to even think about. Of course i complained to the district but on deaf ears also!!

Just out of curiousity, what have you used and what will you use with your 9th grader next year!

pam

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how old are these students?

 

I tutor math and I have found a lot of students who were good at arithmetic, labeled as gifted math students and then rushed thru math -- Algebra I in 7th grade, then Algebra II, then Geometry in 9th. Several things seem to happen:

 

The rush means that the students don't get enough time to really "own" the concepts they're learning. For example, they may have learned how to add fractions by finding a common denominator, but they don't carry that over to denominators with a variable.

 

The students are often not mature enough to handle the abstract concepts of algebra, especially when they have to do a problem that doesn't look just like the ones they've done for homework.

 

Doing Geometry after Algebra II means that their advanced algebra skills are rusty when they get to Pre-Calc or Trig or whatever they call it.

 

Block scheduling simply doesn't allow enough time for many students to really grasp and new concepts. I believe that most of my tutorees would have been better served by doing math as a year-long course.

 

All of these are really more administrative issues rather than the fault of the curriculum.

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how old are these students?

 

I tutor math and I have found a lot of students who were good at arithmetic, labeled as gifted math students and then rushed thru math -- Algebra I in 7th grade, then Algebra II, then Geometry in 9th. Several things seem to happen:

 

The rush means that the students don't get enough time to really "own" the concepts they're learning. For example, they may have learned how to add fractions by finding a common denominator, but they don't carry that over to denominators with a variable.

 

The students are often not mature enough to handle the abstract concepts of algebra, especially when they have to do a problem that doesn't look just like the ones they've done for homework.

 

Doing Geometry after Algebra II means that their advanced algebra skills are rusty when they get to Pre-Calc or Trig or whatever they call it.

 

Block scheduling simply doesn't allow enough time for many students to really grasp and new concepts. I believe that most of my tutorees would have been better served by doing math as a year-long course.

 

All of these are really more administrative issues rather than the fault of the curriculum.

 

These problems are all the reasons I won't be sending mine to ps for mathematics. Rush, rush, rush and no mastery. This semester's block schedule Algebra I class missed two weeks due to snow. Does anyone really think their Algebra I credit that they receive is equivalent to the Algebra I credit issued to full-year, 45 minute class students?

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Does anyone really think their Algebra I credit that they receive is equivalent to the Algebra I credit issued to full-year' date=' 45 minute class students?[/quote']

 

When I was in junior high, we had four periods every day, alternating "A" and "B" days, with weeks alternating 3 "A" days and 2 "B" days with 2 "A" days and 3 "B" days. All classes lasted all year.

 

My niece's high school does a modified block schedule: 7 periods every Monday, Tuesdays and Thursdays are "A" days, with 4 classes each, Wednesdays and Fridays are "B" days, with 4 classes each. I believe everyone has one study hall period. The classes last all year, but the longer class periods allow for more time in labs and cuts down on wasted administration time such as taking roll, collecting homework, etc. My brother says it works well.

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When I was in junior high, we had four periods every day, alternating "A" and "B" days, with weeks alternating 3 "A" days and 2 "B" days with 2 "A" days and 3 "B" days. All classes lasted all year.

 

My niece's high school does a modified block schedule: 7 periods every Monday, Tuesdays and Thursdays are "A" days, with 4 classes each, Wednesdays and Fridays are "B" days, with 4 classes each. I believe everyone has one study hall period. The classes last all year, but the longer class periods allow for more time in labs and cuts down on wasted administration time such as taking roll, collecting homework, etc. My brother says it works well.

 

This Block Schedule has 90-minute classes that last one semester (18 weeks). The student has 4 classes per semester. A student can take a math class during the first semester (Sept to Jan), skip math during the 2nd semester, take summer break, skip math during the first semester, and not take math again until the following Jan (second semester). That is a full 12 months without math instruction.

 

Like I said, the student I know missed 2 weeks due to snow, got a 58 on a chapter test and is still on Honor Roll!!

 

Parent's don't care as long as their student is getting decent grades. It's not about education, it's about grades.

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Our block scheduling has 85 minute classes - 4 each day with one Flex period of 45 minutes 4 times a week (clubs the other day). Those flex periods are supposed to be times of extra instruction or time used to catch students up who were absent, etc. They have since been taken over with PSSA review (state test) for English and math. That only goes till the end of March as PSSA tests will take away a block per day for two weeks in April. Our high school fails state standards in math, English, and science (though science hasn't really been counted as of yet I think. Even so, 134 of our senior class had to retake the test having not scored beyond basic.)

 

Snow delays also take away time as do club days or movie days or other special days in the schedule. When we switched to block scheduling (4 years ago) science teachers had to cut 1/3rd to 1/2 off their final exams as they no longer could cover all the material (and they weren't covering it all before either). In these CPM math books they got to Chapter 7 for Alg 1 & 2 - skipping a few sections here or there. We've never finished a book, and I've never looked to see exactly how many chapters there are (at least 12, possibly more). For Geometry and Pre-Calc they've gotten into Chapter 8. Kids get a full credit and get moved on regardless.

 

This year the math dept has decided ALL students will take two years of Alg 1. While this is good in that they can now finish the book (as the concepts in the back are worthy!), it's tough to make me believe ALL students need two years of Alg 1 in reality. This book has them doing so many projects with tiles and trying to show other concepts - the majority of which DON'T transfer - especially the tiles - that it wastes time and confuses the kids. Kids do learn to graph well (but they did so with other curriculum too) and they certainly know how to use the graphing calculator

(just don't ask them to do anything without it!).

 

With skills coming up into high school, fractions are probably the worst. They simply don't know how to do them without a calculator. When I reminded them they needed to find a common denominator to add fractions they looked at me puzzled. I had to explain what a common denominator was and then how to find it. They did know what a denominator was, but that was it. They are simply too accustomed to doing fractions on calculators. They are used to doing everything on calculators. I asked them to reduce 2/30 and they pulled out their calculators.

 

In the OLD days (I've been there 11 years now), we had students that regularly did the AB Calc AP test (and an occasional BC). Talented kids did well. Non-talented kids didn't take Algebra (though their Integrated Math did have Alg concepts - just not called that). Over the years teachers retired and new ones came in. Policies changed. Kids no longer could "fail" a higher level class as that killed their transcript. Kids, knowing they couldn't fail, didn't do much and levels declined. AP tests got dropped when the few kids that took it couldn't get a 2. Calculators were introduced younger and younger (a BIG problem IMO). It's been a steady decline. Then we switched curriculum (also 4 years ago for high school - earlier for elementary). Now kids get practice tests the day before their real tests (only numbers change) and STILL can't get good grades on the real test (in general). Before, 11 years ago, practice tests were unheard of in higher levels.

 

It's a long, sad, story that I'm trying to abbreviate.

 

I've dealt with it because I enjoy helping kids. They enjoy seeing me come in. There are often comments of how, "now we can really learn. XXX never explains anything like you do, etc, etc.," but a huge part of that is because I ditch the book (yes, we do the problems, but I take over the teaching as soon as they get discouraged - very quickly most days).

 

But now... my own youngest son will be dealing with it. He has other issues... he's occasionally attempted or spoken of suicide. Part of his problem (so he says) is he doesn't like homeschooling (we do require more than his public school peers - he likes that they do less). Powers that be have convinced us to let him try it - it's better than no son at all. We've set as conditions that he has to do math on the side to truly understand and complete a course. He's not super math talented, but I'm insisting he be put in the top classes to try to avoid behavioral issues. Time will tell what happens.

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Just out of curiousity, what have you used and what will you use with your 9th grader next year!

pam

 

We used (and I like) TT. When we pulled my kids home (after 8th, 6th, and 4th grades respectively), I didn't want to be their sole teacher. I want my kids to be independent learners, so we picked curriculum accordingly. Since then, I've discovered this board :001_smile:, so maybe, if I'd discovered it first, I would have chosen something else. However, I'm happy with TT. I've compared MUS and Saxon, but not the other suggestions often mentioned. My oldest scored into the top 3% - 6% on math in the ACT/SAT and topped his ps peers as well as having no difficulties going into Calculus this year (Chalkdust). My middle son is about to take the ACT as a sophomore, but regularly scores into the top 1% on practice tests. Both have no difficulties transferring their math concepts to other subjects like science. Therefore, I'm convinced that TT is suitable for our needs. I do, however, add to their Pre-Calc text in a couple of parts (matrices comes to mind).

 

TT IS behind other books, but it gives a really solid basics understanding - something that is lacking at our ps, so perhaps something I put more weight upon. They are slower with Alg 1, but by Pre-Calc, have caught up just fine (with minor additions). Delaying some concepts is not a bad thing IMO. In Alg 1 they expect a student to solve 2nd degree equations by factoring or completing the square. Most, if not all, other texts also introduce the quadratic formula. TT saves it till Alg 2. It's not really a big deal UNLESS one skips Alg 2 or switches curriculum. Ditto with some graphing and other topics.

 

In general, I think the best math curriculum is one a student truly learns from and remembers. There are several out there that are good - or bad - pending who is using it. Just IMO CPM math is bad for most students! Everyday Math doesn't win any kudos from me either. In some areas it's good - kids know polygons earlier, etc, but for the basics - yuck! Kids do learn how to use a calculator well... I suppose that's good in a button pushing society.

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how old are these students?

 

These were juniors and seniors. It doesn't matter. I see the same trends in our freshmen and sophomores. I see the exact same issues across all classes.

 

I tutor math and I have found a lot of students who were good at arithmetic, labeled as gifted math students and then rushed thru math -- Algebra I in 7th grade, then Algebra II, then Geometry in 9th. Several things seem to happen:

 

The rush means that the students don't get enough time to really "own" the concepts they're learning. For example, they may have learned how to add fractions by finding a common denominator, but they don't carry that over to denominators with a variable.

 

The students are often not mature enough to handle the abstract concepts of algebra, especially when they have to do a problem that doesn't look just like the ones they've done for homework.

 

Doing Geometry after Algebra II means that their advanced algebra skills are rusty when they get to Pre-Calc or Trig or whatever they call it.

 

This does happen some, and I can see it happening a lot with those that end up in tutoring, but there are also kids that should be able to handle it. My oldest two both started Alg 1 in 7th grade with no issues whatsoever. One of mine did Alg 1, Alg 2, Geom, Pre-Calc, the other put Geom in the middle of Alg. Neither had issues either way. Alg 1 was also started in 7th grade for top students back when we had those who could score 4 or 5 on the AP test. They did Alg 1 followed by Alg 2 in those days. They have since switched to Geom in the middle. The problems you mention are certainly true in some cases, but shouldn't be true for all.

 

Block scheduling simply doesn't allow enough time for many students to really grasp and new concepts. I believe that most of my tutorees would have been better served by doing math as a year-long course.

 

I agree totally!!!

 

All of these are really more administrative issues rather than the fault of the curriculum.

 

While I normally don't blame curriculum, with these two, I make an exception. I've seen too much of it. Perhaps in other school districts it works better. I'm certain with some kids it works ok. I feel there are far better options out there that would better serve the majority.

 

My two boys have academic peers from their ps days. Only one has been able to match my oldest's math scores - not beat, but match. That student does a lot of independent study in the "gifted" class as most subjects are below his talent level. When I asked his opinion about CPM he told me he thought it was "crap." Statistically there should be about 8 higher than him with his class size.

 

I briefly assessed a peer of my middle son when his parents asked for help. Their son was failing Pre-Calc. I suggested they buy a copy of TT's Pre-Calc (books only) for him to use as a reference as well as take advantage of Khan Academy tutorials online. He brought his grade up to a C, but he should have been an A student based on middle school talent and how quickly he picked up on the things I taught him in a couple of short sessions. Prior to working with him I had him take a placement test and many of his problems were due to lack of knowledge in Alg and Geom. He could not solve y = mx + b for x (among other issues).

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Well, well, well. Don't take my word for it. If one is curious, here's a link to a

 

Content Review of CPM Mathematics

by Wayne Bishop

Department of Mathematics and Computer Sciences

California State University, Los Angeles

 

http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/cpmwb.htm

 

Apparently I'm not the only one that sees through this curriculum. I only wish the head of our math dept would agree. She's a great person, knowledgeable in math, and a good friend (hence by venting on here where she won't see it!), but woefully blind to her beloved curriculum (or getting paid too much to advertise and teach it to see it for what it is - or isn't).

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With skills coming up into high school, fractions are probably the worst. They simply don't know how to do them without a calculator. When I reminded them they needed to find a common denominator to add fractions they looked at me puzzled. I had to explain what a common denominator was and then how to find it. They did know what a denominator was, but that was it. They are simply too accustomed to doing fractions on calculators. They are used to doing everything on calculators. I asked them to reduce 2/30 and they pulled out their calculators.

 

 

Our district uses Investigations, which just possibly might be the worst math program out there. Worse even than Everyday Math. My sil mentioned that my niece in 6th grade is required to heavily use the calculator now in preparation for standardized tests. :001_huh: She is tracked to be in honors 7th grade math next year. Right now, she apparently does everything on the calculator. My 7th grader is not using a calculator at all yet.

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This does happen some, and I can see it happening a lot with those that end up in tutoring, but there are also kids that should be able to handle it. My oldest two both started Alg 1 in 7th grade with no issues whatsoever. One of mine did Alg 1, Alg 2, Geom, Pre-Calc, the other put Geom in the middle of Alg. Neither had issues either way. Alg 1 was also started in 7th grade for top students back when we had those who could score 4 or 5 on the AP test. They did Alg 1 followed by Alg 2 in those days. They have since switched to Geom in the middle. The problems you mention are certainly true in some cases, but shouldn't be true for all.

 

 

I believe we are more in agreement than you think we are -- you state things more eloquently than I do, though. :001_smile: I just glanced through the review you posted, and it does look like a poor curriculum. Our schools don't use that, however, and I'm seeing many of the same problems.

 

My question about the students' ages was meant to lead into the fact that the schools are designating way too many students as gifted and thereby doing them a disservice. And then when they teach a new math curriculum that the parents don't understand, the parents brag about how advanced their students are, rather than understanding that the students aren't getting the basics.

 

When I was in school -- back in the dark ages -- there was one classroom of 5th/6th grade students who were deemed gifted. This was out of an elementary school district of about six or seven schools. They pooled those students together into one classroom and challenged them. When I hear parents talking on the sidelines at my kids' sporting events, I realize that at least half of the students are deemed gifted these days. Part of it has to do with funding.

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I reluctantly sent my oldest off to high school. I wish now I had found something else to do with him, or pulled him out when I knew it wasn't working out well. In retrospect, though, I am not sure anything would really have worked? Now, 9 years later, things are going well with him. Finally. Sometimes you just do the best you can to minimize the damage, celebrate each day that you are all alive at the end of, pray hard, try to keep the lines of communication open, try to keep being loving, try to fit in as much ordinary life between the crises as possible, try not to do anything extreme, and wait for the child to grow up. This is not meant as a comment on your decision, just as sympathy and hugs and a humble offering of a story that was bad for years but had a perfectly lovely ending.

-Nan

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Thank you for posting this thread!

I'm sorry you are frustrated. I'm sorry for those students.

 

BUT,

 

It makes me feel so much BETTER about math here at my house!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

 

My 12th grader will not complete the full Al 2 book, but she understands what we HAVE covered. And, my 11th grader with LD problems still has a terrible time with fractions... but she has LEARNING DISABILITIES for goodness sake.

 

Someone said that "it is not about education, but only about the grades." Here it is ALL about the education in spite of the grades.

 

Once again, thanks for posting.... it just confirms that if I "do the best we can until May" that EDUCATION is still happening here!

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It's very sad. Over and over again my dd in college hears from her friends that they were cheated out of an education in high school. In her College Algebra class, 80% of the students were failing and many withdrew. There was a day when students are solving problems on the board and my dd factored 5x-5= 5(x-1) and the professor said to her,"Oh, you're the smart one." She was shocked at the comment because the problem was basic.

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Ah yes, Everyday Math . . . the very reason I am a new poster on this forum. Chicago Math was the primary reason we decided to homeschool. It was so difficult to see my 4th grade daughter in tears because she wasn't sure which of the 4 methods to use to solve a problem. Glad that nightmare is over.

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My question about the students' ages was meant to lead into the fact that the schools are designating way too many students as gifted and thereby doing them a disservice.

 

I agree with you on this (and everything else you wrote in that post, but expounding upon this). We have grade inflation to let parents and students think they are doing well too. Then, when they get into high school and students suddenly can't do well on state tests - well, it MUST be the teachers' fault as Junior was certainly doing well. Nevermind that Junior came up through the ranks without knowing how to do the basics, except by pushing buttons on a calculator IF they know which buttons to push.

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I reluctantly sent my oldest off to high school. I wish now I had found something else to do with him, or pulled him out when I knew it wasn't working out well. In retrospect, though, I am not sure anything would really have worked? Now, 9 years later, things are going well with him. Finally. Sometimes you just do the best you can to minimize the damage, celebrate each day that you are all alive at the end of, pray hard, try to keep the lines of communication open, try to keep being loving, try to fit in as much ordinary life between the crises as possible, try not to do anything extreme, and wait for the child to grow up. This is not meant as a comment on your decision, just as sympathy and hugs and a humble offering of a story that was bad for years but had a perfectly lovely ending.

-Nan

 

Thanks Nan. This son is a perfectionist wannabe without the academic talent his brothers have, so he sees himself as a failure. Nevermind that he is easily into the top 80 or 90 percent (pending subject - perhaps higher in English). To him (definitely not us) that's failure and life is not worth living. He has so much to offer this world and has many niches to choose from that would fit him. I just hope that sooner or later he will see them and not be jealous of his brothers. At 14, life is hard. If he goes to school and can shine there - maybe it will help. At least it will give him one less excuse for why he's miserable. If he can make it through his teens I feel certain he'll be ok. (And yes, we're on watch for potential chemical imbalances that may or may not be there. He's supposedly at a rough age to tell.)

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Thank you for posting this thread!

...

 

It makes me feel so much BETTER about math here at my house!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

 

My 12th grader will not complete the full Al 2 book, but she understands what we HAVE covered. And, my 11th grader with LD problems still has a terrible time with fractions... but she has LEARNING DISABILITIES for goodness sake.

 

Someone said that "it is not about education, but only about the grades." Here it is ALL about the education in spite of the grades.

 

...

 

Glad to be of service! :D

 

And yes, absolutely, it's better to have the education than the grades!

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It's very sad. Over and over again my dd in college hears from her friends that they were cheated out of an education in high school. In her College Algebra class, 80% of the students were failing and many withdrew. There was a day when students are solving problems on the board and my dd factored 5x-5= 5(x-1) and the professor said to her,"Oh, you're the smart one." She was shocked at the comment because the problem was basic.

 

This is exactly how I feel - and I'd be thrilled if students could look at 5x-5 and factor it correctly. When they can't do that, they have tons of difficulty seeing sin X - sin^3 X = sin X cos^2 X.

 

(For those non-mathy types that care... it's a trig thingy...

 

Factor out sin X (1 - sin^2 X) = sin X cos^2 X.

 

Then use the Trig Identity cos^2 X = 1 - sin^2 X [or sin^2 X + cos^2 X = 1 for math purists] to replace the 1 - sin^2 X and get them equal.

 

It's one thing to forget it when you haven't done it in AGES - quite another to not know how to do something that simple when it's part of your course - mainly because you didn't know how to do the factoring of it all.)

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Ah yes, Everyday Math . . . the very reason I am a new poster on this forum. Chicago Math was the primary reason we decided to homeschool. It was so difficult to see my 4th grade daughter in tears because she wasn't sure which of the 4 methods to use to solve a problem. Glad that nightmare is over.

 

It took me two years to catch my youngest up after pulling him out at the end of 4th grade. I thought he had been doing well - after all - he had the equivalent of A's in the course (not given letter grades, but given the highest understanding level). He came home talking about polygons and other advanced topics that made me pleased. I dutifully started him in a grade level math and got tears and exasperation. It was sad. He is a bright child - perhaps not top of the top, but definitely bright and on par with age level. I feel absolutely awful that I didn't catch it sooner.

 

ps Even my super bright top of the top middle son didn't know how to do fractions AT ALL without a calculator.

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For most kids, I think math should be delayed even more than it is now. I'm not talking about the top maybe 10% math wiz kids, but everybody else. Trying to keep up with math requirements has been awful in homeschooling. Doing geometry before the kids' brains can handle that high of a level of reasoning, doing algebra before ready, etc. To cope, kids just memorize it, but don't know how it works. You wouldn't believe how many kids at my son's college can't do math. And, the college doesn't have Basic College Math, or regular Algebra or Geometry either. If those kids got another try at those, there would be a lot more math people around. I did fine with math in high school, but it really clicked for me as an adult teaching my kids. If I had my way, I would just do simpler algebra and geometry for high school, take longer to do it, and review often.

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You wouldn't believe how many kids at my son's college can't do math.

 

Yes I would! ;)

 

In general though, yes, current studies have shown that for many people the brain capability to understand higher level math develops later, not earlier. It is considered one of the main reasons some adults find it much easier to learn than when they were in school themselves.

 

That said, for the highly academic bound student, delaying these courses can often hurt more than help IF they can train the brain to learn it. If they aren't learning, that's a different story.

 

And yes, there's a subset of the population that has no problem learning it (and knowing what they are doing) earlier.

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I'm following this discussion with interest. I teach high school English, so math "innumeracy" is not an issue I deal with on a daily basis, but I'm sure you can appreciate how surprised I was when I gave students their quizzes back and one of them said (of his 34 out of 45 questions right), "What percentage is that?" and I told them to figure it out.

 

Immediately, they dragged out the calculators. I told them to put the calcs away and to use division.

 

They looked at me like I had two heads. They didn't know about dividing the numerator by the denominator. Okay, so I explained, "Divide 34 by 45."

 

That should have been enough, right? Maybe too much?

 

No.

 

They had no idea how to do long division.:001_huh: I had to show them that too.

 

Okay, just for the record, my child's favorite subject is not math, although now with Life of Fred, she's really enjoying it. My spouse has really focused intensely on the four functions and fractions, decimals, percentages, etc., all without a calculator: we're old-school people who believe in completely "un-fun" skills like memorizing multiplication tables.:D

I hope this doesn't sound braggy when I speculate that she would easily have been able to figure out that particular division problem and wouldn't have even thought about using a calculator...and of course, all of these students, being in high school, are at least in Algebra I.

 

Yikes.

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I'm following this discussion with interest. I teach high school English, so math "innumeracy" is not an issue I deal with on a daily basis, but I'm sure you can appreciate how surprised I was when I gave students their quizzes back and one of them said (of his 34 out of 45 questions right), "What percentage is that?" and I told them to figure it out.

 

Immediately, they dragged out the calculators. I told them to put the calcs away and to use division.

 

They looked at me like I had two heads. They didn't know about dividing the numerator by the denominator. Okay, so I explained, "Divide 34 by 45."

 

That should have been enough, right? Maybe too much?

 

No.

 

They had no idea how to do long division.:001_huh:

 

Maybe I'm just too hopeful, but I think most students would have known how to get their average here. They would not, however, been able to do it without their calculators.

 

Now, if you gave them a list of 10 scores and told them to find the average you'd have some explaining to do for about 50% of the students. You'd have 99% of them mystified if the scores weren't using the same scale but were weighted the same (9/10, 17/20, 13/15, etc).

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For most kids, I think math should be delayed even more than it is now. I'm not talking about the top maybe 10% math wiz kids, but everybody else. Trying to keep up with math requirements has been awful in homeschooling. Doing geometry before the kids' brains can handle that high of a level of reasoning, doing algebra before ready, etc. To cope, kids just memorize it, but don't know how it works. You wouldn't believe how many kids at my son's college can't do math. And, the college doesn't have Basic College Math, or regular Algebra or Geometry either. If those kids got another try at those, there would be a lot more math people around. I did fine with math in high school, but it really clicked for me as an adult teaching my kids. If I had my way, I would just do simpler algebra and geometry for high school, take longer to do it, and review often.

 

:iagree: I've even seen this with our always-hs'ed dc. And I certainly got through algebra one (Dolciani) in 8th grade doing this (memorizing w/o understanding a thing). Making straight A's, no less. :confused:

 

There is this idea floating around that if kids don't get all the math that they can, when they're young, their brains won't be receptive to it when they're 'older'. I've seen just the opposite happen with our own dc. Math seems to come more easily for them now that they're older (our youngest is 17yo), and have somewhat 'conquered' the English language. It seemed to help them to do language first, then focus on the math. Which we never really planned, btw. Just stumbled onto it ..... ;)

 

Somewhat related to this is music. Somewhere around 14 - 16yo, our dc seemed to get hold of music (on their own - no lessons). One ds taught himself to play classical music on the piano. Another taught himself guitar. And so on. Our dc aren't unusual, because I've heard of other kids doing the same thing at similar ages. And music has so much math in it ... it's fascinating to think about.

Edited by ksva
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I think this varies with the child, though. I "got" my algebra in 8th grade, not just memorized it. And I totally did not understand my English class. I understood what I read in a very literal way much better than most of my classmates, but I couldn't write about it, thought talking about a book spoiled it, hated most of what we read in school (although I gobbled down children's classics at home), and really struggled with spelling. Math was the only place in 8th grade where I was actually learning something. The rest I either already knew or wasn't ready for yet.

-Nan

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Maybe I'm just too hopeful, but I think most students would have known how to get their average here. They would not, however, been able to do it without their calculators.

 

 

I think you are too hopeful. I teach Geometry at our co-op, and I offer an Honors option. On the tests, the Honors students have extra problems to do, which means their "points possible" is 120 rather than 100. I give their scores as xxx/120, and they always ask me "But what's my percentage?" And I have to explain that if they divide the xxx by 120 and multiply by 100 they will have their percentage score. They usually look at me with that deer in the headlights look.

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These problems are all the reasons I won't be sending mine to ps for mathematics. Rush' date=' rush, rush and no mastery. This semester's block schedule Algebra I class missed two weeks due to snow. Does anyone really think their Algebra I credit that they receive is equivalent to the Algebra I credit issued to full-year, 45 minute class students?[/quote']

 

That's the beauty of homeschooling--we can work at our own dc's paces and work on mastery. We don't worry about time here (I have procrastinators, so 45 minutes could mean they get nothing done if I'm working with someone else at that time) but getting a good understanding of math.

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I think this varies with the child, though. I "got" my algebra in 8th grade, not just memorized it. And I totally did not understand my English class. I understood what I read in a very literal way much better than most of my classmates, but I couldn't write about it, thought talking about a book spoiled it, hated most of what we read in school (although I gobbled down children's classics at home), and really struggled with spelling. Math was the only place in 8th grade where I was actually learning something. The rest I either already knew or wasn't ready for yet.

-Nan

:iagree: And there are some math gifted dc who can get it even younger, but that's a very small percentage of the population. Our brains don't all develop at the exact same time. I had no trouble with understanding Algebra in grade 8 and even worked ahead on my own by reading the text. This is the first grade they let me do it, but I get that from the mathy side of my family. My mother and birth brother aren't like that. (so much for stereotypes.)

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Yup. The quadratic equation doesn't show up until NEM3. y=mx+b (or y=mx+c) doesn't show up at first, or at least not worked with extensively. Some other things don't show up until NAM, which would be done in 9th or 10th grade. In school, I went through the normal sequence starting with algebra 1 in 8th grade. I'm pretty sure I was introduced to some things earlier than my children were in NEM. It wasn't much a problem, even for my older one who didn't begin NEM1 until he was in 9th (I just did a little extra work before the SAT). I'm just saying that I thought it was interesting that both TT and NEM did the same thing. Usually, those two are spoken of as being opposites.

-Nan

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