Rising Costs and Government Help

[GothicGyrl]

I wonder why you thought it important to point this out? If indeed that is true, that they meet IRS guidelines to not owe taxes....then maybe that is all the more reason they are in NEED of some temporary help.

 

Someday the OP and her dh WILL be paying taxes even if they aren't now. The kids will grow up and leave home, the dh will earn more...who knows what will happen in their life that will change their circumstances. I don't hear that she wants to give up and park outside the welfare office forever. I hear that she has 7 children and they are having a really tough time making it and the one 'toy' they have she feels guilty about. I am sad that so many saw fit to further that guilt rather than tell her 'go feed your children in peace.'

I"m disheartened at it as well, Scarlett. I only hope the OP doesn't take the advice and decides that feeding her family is more important than strangers advice on the internet (including ours actually).

 

And Wendy, just because one isn't paying income tax, doesn't mean they aren't paying taxes. There is more than one kind of tax and it is used for more than one thing. It all goes in to the same "pool" and is pulled out of that "pool" as needed. If we actually had our taxes used as they were supposed to be used, things like this wouldn't even be necessary and no one would be questioning why or whether or not they should use it.

 

I've largely been ignored in this thread, even though I made valid points. I just hope the OP listens to her heart and decides that it is truely ok to use this because they truly do need it. No one would think the lesser of her (at least I wouldn't).

[Scarlett]

I've largely been ignored in this thread,

 

That might be a first for ya. ;)

 

I was thinking earlier how the thread might have gone if she hadn't announced that they have a travel trailer. I think that just conjurs up images of luxury...and who knows maybe they are making a $500 a month payment on it..in which case it would seem a bit foolish to hang on too. And YET if they decided to sell it tonight, there is no guarantee they COULD sell it quickly. In the meantime 7 kids still have to eat.

 

Shrug. I don't know. I just don't get the attitude. My dh and I pay A TON of taxes and I am thrilled to think a tiny portion of that might go to help feed hungry children. Even the hungry children without perfect parents.

 

In all fairness, probably the majority of the responders in this thread think she should get help she needs and qualifies for.

[SparrowsNest]

Whether you take WIC or not is sort of beside the point. The issue is whether your husband is willing to live within your family's means. If your getting WIC frees up just enough money for him to have a night out with his buddies, you've ended up no better off than you were before you got WIC. (Not saying that's what your husband would do, just an illustration.)

 

I think the most important thing you should do, for your family's long-term financial security, is sit down and set a budget. Food is a necessity; fancy trailers are not. Maybe you need to consolidate debts/work out a lower payment plan. I don't know. But I do know that you will not have peace until your finances are in order.

[GothicGyrl]

Whether you take WIC or not is sort of beside the point. The issue is whether your husband is willing to live within your family's means. If your getting WIC frees up just enough money for him to have a night out with his buddies, you've ended up no better off than you were before you got WIC. (Not saying that's what your husband would do, just an illustration.)

 

I think the most important thing you should do, for your family's long-term financial security, is sit down and set a budget. Food is a necessity; fancy trailers are not. Maybe you need to consolidate debts/work out a lower payment plan. I don't know. But I do know that you will not have peace until your finances are in order.

I DO agree with you on this, however, like our wide screen tv or new dishwasher or computers, or pick something-- these things were bought before we were faced with issues and we certainly do NOT live beyond our means.

 

The point I'm trying to make is this:

 

-------No one but the OP knows whether or not these things were bought before problems started(even if she did say so)

 

-------just because one has these "luxuries" does not mean one is "rich" and it certainly does not mean one will have the money once these "luxuries" disappear(which is sort of your point).

 

-------there is the factor that even if she did sell that trailer, that money would only be enough to buy maybe a month's worth of groceries. EVERYone in this country is feeling it right now, who's to say anyone has the money to plunk down for a trailer?

 

-------and lastly, the assumption that one needs to be living dirt poor in order to get assistance. Like Scarlett, I wonder just how "poor" poor has to be in order to qualify for what some in this thread feels justifies them going on assistance?

 

*WE* are poor. I know this. But all of our bills are paid and there is food on the table--3 squares a day, plus. However, I know we couldn't afford healthcare without the medicaid and with a child who has severe allergic asthma and a DH the same, I have no shame in taking it even with my "luxuries".

 

There is one bane I do have with the Welfare system--the whole idea of taking Gross amount (as opposed to net) to figure out assistance. I keep asking "Why take that amount when we don't bring that amount home?" "That's just the way it is" I get. And that robs my family of much needed help. And other families who might need it more than I.

 

grrrr... I could go on... I loathe the entire welfare system--it needs a major overhauling.

[Kari C in SC]

Due to being laid off from my job we qualified for WIC for about 6 months until we moved. We had a very nice home, etc. We still met the guidelines. I used it for those months and when our income increased, we quit using it. If you qualify, I see nothing wrong with using it. That is what it is met for. If it stated in the rules about paying off your debt, owning a camper, etc, then I would say not to use it. It doesn't have rules for that, so it is yours to use.

[Aubrey]

I have read every post in this thread & walked away w/out posting, but I can't get it off my mind.

 

So, will you humor me w/ a little mental experiment? Let's say OP decided to get out of debt sometime before rising costs created the problem she's in. She & dh very responsibly created a budget, sold the camper, & used the money to pay off/pay down debt.

 

Then hard times hit. Let's say they've got nothing else to sell. Let's say they're already living relatively frugally, considering they were able to work on their debt while still living on an income that qualifies them for govt aid.

 

Now if they need help, no one begrudges them as much, right? Because they've done what they could to be responsible *before* things got out of their control.

 

But that's not the situation. On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?

 

On the other hand, I also see the problem w/ OP's dh being unwilling to *see* that he's not making ends meet. My dh was there when we first married. Through lots of looooooong conversations, we've come to realize that he NEEDS to see things on paper or he DOESN'T get it.

 

I imagine the situation w/ OPs dh is pretty tender right now, & I don't feel like that's actually a part of the question being asked. For all intents and purposes, *she* doesn't own a camper, or it won't sell, or the title's tied up or something. Hopefully that issue will be resolved productively.

 

In the mean time, what to do? I don't have an answer. I have strong feelings that go both ways, but no answer. OP, all I can offer you is my empathy and compassion. I hope you find the right answer and can follow that with true peace--without feeling judged or guilty if you go the one way and without feeling insurmountable pressure or resentment if you go the other way. (((OP)))

[Wendi]

I wonder why you thought it important to point this out? If indeed that is true, that they meet IRS guidelines to not owe taxes....then maybe that is all the more reason they are in NEED of some temporary help.

 

 

I have not made a single comment about the OP and her situation. I just wanted to correct an erroneous comment (that everyone who works pays taxes). This doesn't enter into the OP's situation at all, IMO, I just noticed people saying this during the previous discussion about taxes, and now it is being said again. It's incorrect. That's all.

 

Wendi

[Carol in Cal.]

I am happy to have my tax money feeding children who need it. I don't care what their parents did or did not do. They are here now, and they must not go hungry. That's just not right. If the family qualifies, then they qualify. No one should go hungry in our country. It's that simple for me.

 

Now, should people always make the right choices? Sure. Should I? Yes. Do I? Of course not. Does anyone? Nope.

[Liberty]

The judgemental opinions in this thread are horribly depressing to me. The OP is not Amish, forbidden by her religion to accept any gov't assistance. Why is everyone shaming her for wanting a tiny bit of help to feed her children?

 

Also, her dh sounds like he's being frugal in some respects. He has a large family, works hard to make ends meet and what other future vacation options would he be able to afford besides camping? Sounds smart to me.

 

OP, imo, instead of asking the hive, you should ask your dh how he feels about you getting WIC. If he thinks it's OK, than go for it. You'll be doubly blessed: by getting extra food and by protecting your dh's interests and wishes.

[SparrowsNest]

One other thing I thought of. OP, you don't mention your religious bent, but as someone said "hey, she's not Amish," it made me think of one more thing.

 

If you have a spiritual leader (pastor, priest, rabbi, etc), this is a perfect time to go to him or her, explain the difficulty your family is facing, and let him/her direct you to the resources which may be available to you for immediate relief. Then, have the three of you sit down and talk about financial management.

 

I'm still strongly of the opinion that this issue isn't about WIC at all but about making choices which enable you to live within your means. And I do see both sides of the argument -- i.e., if your money situation was so tight the the rise in gas has made it impossible for you to buy food, then putting an addition on your home, keeping the trailer, and going whole hog on debt reduction are really not the most responsible moves. When you say almost no money, what do you mean? I have 6 children myself, and I know that the choices I make in the aisles at the grocery store can make a difference of several hundred dollars at the check-out. On the other hand, I don't want your children to go hungry. But if it really isn't an issue of going hungry -- if it's an issue of not getting *everything* you'd normally get, i.e., if you could have the necessities, and not the luxuries, without governmental assistance, I think at the end of the day you would feel better about it not using it. Because you sound like a person who is responsible and concerned and obviously hesitating about it, I think you will feel better if you exhaust all of your options before that move.

[Nestof3]

JuJuBee --

 

Excellent post!

 

And, I am quite certain that I did say I am glad those programs are there for when they are needed. Yes, my idea of "needed" is different from many obviously. I do not think we are entitled to any form of entertainment, vacations, etc. I would not hesitate to seek assistance from a program if I had sought advice on my finances, ceased spending money on things that are not necessary, etc. I would not feel comfortable asking the taxpayers to help me out unless I knew that I had done my part. Now, if I were married to a man who refused to care about my children starving, sure, I would bypass him because I cannot force him to care.

 

Since several anecdotes have been shared on this thread, I'll share mine. My husband and I, a few years ago, switched from Anthem insurance (which we pay ourselves since dh is self-employed) to Christian Care Medishare since it was less expensive. This plan does not cover things like preventative care, immunizations, etc. My boys needed their last booster shots, so I planned to have them done on a well-child visit I scheduled for the boys. We had not been to the doctor in quite a while, and Nathan was actually late on his shots. I had been reading a lot about vaccinations and not sure if I really wanted to continue with it. Between the doctor visit and the shots, it would have cost close to $1,500. They told me that I could go to the health department and get the shots for free. I paid for the doctor visit and left without the shots. When I got home, I called the health department and asked if I could have the shots done there and pay what it costs them. The lady was shocked by my question and said no one had ever asked that before. But, no, there was no way I could pay for it. So, I made an appointment to have their shots done there. I never did have any peace about this because I knew that we could deprive ourselves of some of our wants and eventually pay for it. I knew it could be done, but it was hard having this "free" option -- my husband and I wouldn't have to stop eating out once a week on our date night, we could eat more simply, positively buy no junk food or dessert foods, I could sell a few things, and so forth.

 

The morning of the appointment, I noticed a strange rash on Nathan's body. I had no idea what it was. I showed it to the nurse, and she agreed we shouldn't go forth with the vaccinations until the rash cleared. So, we went home. I discovered that it was a canned tuna fish reaction! I never did go back, though (I did have the boys vaccinated, though). I personally knew I was not at the point where I absolutely needed assistance on that.

 

I know there's not a definite point of need that can be pointed to, I'm just saying that for me, I did not feel comfortable.

[Twinmom]

so IMO, it would be best to allow the OP decide for herself what she feels comfortable doing and go do it. Yes, she asked for the advice originally...but I'm betting she may regret doing so now! ;)

 

I've got something else entirely different to suggest, so here goes. Whether or not you go for WIC, there is something else you can do as well to help your situation. Have you ever tried the Grocery Game? It's a neat way of doing couponing that makes it WAY easier to save big at the grocery store. I've been doing it for about 3 years, and it's fabulous. I literally saved approximately $8,000 on my grocery bill the first year out! Until gas prices, etc. started rising, I was managing a family of 7 (Mom lived with us) on $100 a week including diapers, and we ate great! Now, it's a bit higher...closer to $150 or more if I splurge, but it could be much worse!

 

You can check it out yourself at www.thegrocerygame.com, but it basically works like this: they keep a database of all available coupons in your area (if they operate there) as well as a database of advertised and unadvertised grocery store sales. When the sales price hits "rock bottom" (as opposed to a "phantom sale" price, which would be higher), they match the items up to an available coupon and put it on a List. (You pay for the list, but you can make up the small price in the savings on just an item or two at the store!) Then, you can print off the List with just the items marked that you plan to buy, pull those coupons and off you go! I don't even cut up all my coupons anymore...I keep the inserts in a file and cut only the ones I need, which is a HUGE time saver. Stockpiling items when they are available at a rock bottom price + the coupon is a big part of how this works...the site talks all about it.

 

Yes, you could do it all on your own by researching the flyers, bringing all your coupons to the store while you search for unadvertised sales, etc. and save the List price (about $5-$10 a List for 8 weeks), but when you can save hours of time and still save the bucks, I think the minimal charge is well worth it. Plus, they operate a message board that was a huge help to me in terms of learning to coupon, finding deals at non-list stores, etc. I'm quite sure that with all my kids plus homeschooling, there is no other way I could manage to coupon at this level without them!

 

Hope this helps! I'd venture to guess that you can use it no matter what you decide about WIC. Best of luck!

[OnTheBrink]

The judgemental opinions in this thread are horribly depressing to me. The OP is not Amish, forbidden by her religion to accept any gov't assistance. Why is everyone shaming her for wanting a tiny bit of help to feed her children?

 

Also, her dh sounds like he's being frugal in some respects. He has a large family, works hard to make ends meet and what other future vacation options would he be able to afford besides camping? Sounds smart to me.

 

OP, imo, instead of asking the hive, you should ask your dh how he feels about you getting WIC. If he thinks it's OK, than go for it. You'll be doubly blessed: by getting extra food and by protecting your dh's interests and wishes.

 

Everyone ISN'T shaming her. Have you not seen the posts where people are encouraging her to get WIC?

 

And, FTR, WIC isn't funded the same way entitlement programs (like food stamps and welfare) are. WIC isn't an entitlement program.

[GothicGyrl]

Since several anecdotes have been shared on this thread, I'll share mine. My husband and I, a few years ago, switched from Anthem insurance (which we pay ourselves since dh is self-employed) to Christian Care Medishare since it was less expensive. This plan does not cover things like preventative care, immunizations, etc. My boys needed their last booster shots, so I planned to have them done on a well-child visit I scheduled for the boys. We had not been to the doctor in quite a while, and Nathan was actually late on his shots. I had been reading a lot about vaccinations and not sure if I really wanted to continue with it. Between the doctor visit and the shots, it would have cost close to $1,500. They told me that I could go to the health department and get the shots for free. I paid for the doctor visit and left without the shots. When I got home, I called the health department and asked if I could have the shots done there and pay what it costs them. The lady was shocked by my question and said no one had ever asked that before. But, no, there was no way I could pay for it. So, I made an appointment to have their shots done there. I never did have any peace about this because I knew that we could deprive ourselves of some of our wants and eventually pay for it. I knew it could be done, but it was hard having this "free" option -- my husband and I wouldn't have to stop eating out once a week on our date night, we could eat more simply, positively buy no junk food or dessert foods, I could sell a few things, and so forth.

 

I'm wondering if you have a problem with some type of socialized medicine as well, because while it is not free (taxes), it is for all intents and purposes "free" (for everyone).

 

Which is why I am having a hard time understanding why on anyone's planet, anyone would have a problem receiving something for free? That's what the health department is there for. It is for everyone. Not just the poor(though they are the ones who use it most). The health departments were started **because** of the ridiculous costs in health care, why would anyone deprive and deny themselves "free"? There should be no reason for you to feel guilty about this--none.

 

If you want to argue WIC, foodstamps, medicaid--maybe. But the health department giving vacainations for free? They are doing it for a reason--they get them from the companies for less than rock bottom prices! Some even get them for free too. The companies are what pay for the health departments to survive, not the people. Why do you think it is so easy to get samples of medications from them? You need something, but can't afford the script right now--ask for samples, they'll have them and give them to you!

 

Why, please tell me, would anyone feel guilty about this?

[mysticamethyst]

I have read most of the post, but not all. I will state my opinion only because I can't stop thinking about it. Here's the thing for me, that program was and is set up to help children out with basic eatting needs. It doesn't matter what assets you have it more matters how young your children are and to make sure that their nutrition standards is being met. Others have suggested that you sell this camper, it sleeps all of you correct, so if anything of a natural disaster happen to your family would you not have a place to live then. Also, in this economy who would buy it. Not many can afford such things, and what you are needing is only tempoary and I for one would rather tax dollars go to you as a legal United States citizen than to an illegal alien that is working the system and getting way more. I am sure flames will come my way for brining this aspect into it but here in Texas it is a very real problem. I myself couldn't get any help from medicade in paying for my dd $1400 month shot because my DH makes to much money BEFORE taxes, not after but before. But some of the illegals that mow lawns making about $2000(tax free) a week, their estimate not mine, are going and getting all the govt. programs they can get on. Then of course you have the many other illegal makers of money;drug dealers, prostitutes, and so on, that also never pay taxes and still collect from these govt. programs. Thankfully we found another program that helps us, but should I sell my house and live in smalleer house because we need help for a medical expense, no I don't think so.

 

 

PS I know my spelling is bad in this one sorry.

[kalanamak]

Tanya,

 

I'm sure I'll need a flame retardant suit when I post this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

 

If you have the money to feed your family OR pay off debt, you should feed your family and work on paying off debt more slowly. IMHO, WIC ought to be reserved for those who have no other options. It's nice to be out of debt, but why should others pay for your groceries while you do it?

 

interest than I need to:

WIC now, pay down debt faster, keep track of what you took from WIC and give it back when you can! I took a few small monetary helps in college and have more than paid them back, now. If you cannot part with the money later, do some volunteer work when that crew of kids that are so little are big enough to do so.

HTH

[Karen sn]

This came up before, when people were talking about taxes and refunds, and a couple of people have mentioned it in this thread. I just want to gently clarify that not everyone pays (income) taxes. It is quite possible, in fact likely, that the OP and her dh do not pay income taxes, as he does not have a high income, and they have many children. Many working families actually receive money each year when they file, because their credits (EIC, child credits) add up to more than they owe based on their income.

 

I just think it's important when we talk about taxes that we are clear that not everyone is paying them. A pretty large percentage of people (30%?) pay no taxes at all.

 

Wendi

 

ACTUALLY.....EVERYONE PAYS TAXES!!!

Even kids. Tax on gum, gas, in some states even food is taxed.

And the tax on gas is HUGE!

[Mekanamom]

I seem to remember a similar thread on these boards awhile back when I was a lurker, when a regular on these boards had a similar problem. Her dh was also being obstinate about their financial situation. The majority of advice was "give it to him to solve. he is the provider, you are the mom." She did, and he figured it out. I'll bet Tanya's dh would, too.

 

Things can go MUCH worse that way. Trust me, they can. (Not saying they will, but turning over the finances to a person in any sort of denial isn't always the best solution.) My advice on this to the OP is: Go ahead and pay the bills, but every month, give your DH a statement so he can see on paper where all the money is going. Then use those statements to make a budget.

 

Take the assistance and use the wiggle room to do what you can to fix the situation. The time is past to be feeling guilty about getting there. Do what you can to get out.

 

And :grouphug:

[cricket1178]

It is obvious that the OP needs some help from Dave Ramsey, but the mistakes have already been made. Now, she needs some temporary help to feed her dc. What a blessing to have never made a financial mistake, or to have been taught how to make better financial decisions from the beginning, or better yet, have just naturally been good with money and never gotten yourself into this type of situation. But, life happens, and people mess up.

 

Please do what you need to do for your family right now.

[Mekanamom]

Yep! Exactly.

 

Sometimes mistakes get us into these situations, sometimes it's just circumstance. It doesn't matter. Use the resources available to you, and do what you can to improve things. :)

[Wendi]

ACTUALLY.....EVERYONE PAYS TAXES!!!

Even kids. Tax on gum, gas, in some states even food is taxed.

And the tax on gas is HUGE!

 

Income taxes go to the federal government and fund federal programs. Sales tax goes to state and local governments. Property taxes go to local governments. The gas tax pays for highways and transportation improvements, both federal and state.

 

I wasn't trying to start anything here. As I said, I was just correcting the misstatement that everyone who works pays income taxes. If someone is saying everyone pays TAXES, well, yes, they do pay sales and other taxes. But about a third of people pay no income tax, and many of these actually receive money when they file their taxes. This came up before, when we were all talking about how much we owed or received on our income taxes. I was just clarifying, that's all.

 

Wendi

[Susan in TX]

I just think it's important when we talk about taxes that we are clear that not everyone is paying them. A pretty large percentage of people (30%?) pay no taxes at all.

 

 

While it may be true that not everyone pays federal income taxes, even the poorest of the poor pay sales tax and most people pay property taxes one way or another. So everyone does pay taxes.

 

Susan in TX

[Nestof3]

Wendi, I appreciate you showing us the differences. I think it is something few people understand.

[Tutor]

I'm wondering if you have a problem with some type of socialized medicine as well, because while it is not free (taxes), it is for all intents and purposes "free" (for everyone).

 

Which is why I am having a hard time understanding why on anyone's planet, anyone would have a problem receiving something for free? That's what the health department is there for. It is for everyone. Not just the poor(though they are the ones who use it most). The health departments were started **because** of the ridiculous costs in health care, why would anyone deprive and deny themselves "free"? There should be no reason for you to feel guilty about this--none.

 

If you want to argue WIC, foodstamps, medicaid--maybe. But the health department giving vacainations for free? They are doing it for a reason--they get them from the companies for less than rock bottom prices! Some even get them for free too. The companies are what pay for the health departments to survive, not the people. Why do you think it is so easy to get samples of medications from them? You need something, but can't afford the script right now--ask for samples, they'll have them and give them to you!

 

Why, please tell me, would anyone feel guilty about this?

 

Nothing is "free." It may not cost money, but it costs personal freedom, availability of future choices, and misplaced trust. That is why I "deny" (I wouldn't choose this word, but will use yours for continuity's sake) myself free healthcare, food stamps, WIC, rental assistance, and other government "help" which we more than qualify for. I have counted the cost and it is too high.

[GothicGyrl]

Nothing is "free." It may not cost money, but it costs personal freedom, availability of future choices, and misplaced trust. That is why I "deny" (I wouldn't choose this word, but will use yours for continuity's sake) myself free healthcare, food stamps, WIC, rental assistance, and other government "help" which we more than qualify for. I have counted the cost and it is too high.

I don't like our government any more than anyone else, so I guess your reasons for "denying" just don't fly for me and my family. Which is sort of my point to the OP--if you need it, get it. The reasons you list, for your sake may work, but for me and my family--no way am I going to not get what I should be able to get (if I need it), especially if that "denial" causes my family to suffer.

[Tutor]

I don't like our government any more than anyone else, so I guess your reasons for "denying" just don't fly for me and my family. Which is sort of my point to the OP--if you need it, get it. The reasons you list, for your sake may work, but for me and my family--no way am I going to not get what I should be able to get (if I need it), especially if that "denial" causes my family to suffer.

 

I never said that we didn't get what we need but we have reassessed what "needs" are (shelter, food, health, love) and if we are lacking in any of those, we go to our family, friends, neighbors and church and ask for help. Now, I have heard the argument that the taxpayers (both private and corporate) that provide the funds for things like WIC, food stamps, health care, etc are my family, friends and neighbors, but there are a few differences between my asking for their help personally and requesting it anonymously through a government agency:

 

1) personal accountability - If I make a request personally to someone who knows me, I have someone who cannot only help me through the difficult circumstances in which I find myself, but they can help me evaluate my situation and help me not repeat the mistakes that got me there or identify the unique circumstances that brought me to where I am and work as my advocate to help me change them.

 

2) embarrassment - It can be (it usually is) embarrassing and humbling to ask someone else for help. However, this embarrassment serves a purpose: it forces us to take a hard look at our circumstances and make sure we have done and sacrificed all we can to change our situation before we ask someone else to work and sacrifice to help us.

 

3) free will - However well-intentioned and compassionate a government employee is, the help they are offering does not originate with them. The resources they offer were obtained with a threat of force. I am not saying that the police held a gun to someone's head to make them turn money over, but let's face it, the majority of taxpayers follow the law and pay their taxes because they don't want to go to jail (threat of force). A government, no matter how "compassionate" it appears (through the offering of health care, groceries, and other subsidies) only appears compassionate. True compassion comes from sacrifice, and sacrifice can only come from individuals who feel compassion and are moved to do what is necessary to ease the suffering they see.

 

I agree with you that if the OP needs help, she should get it. However, I do not think that the government is the place to go for the help her family needs. They need much more than food. Her husband, from what she says, is in denial about their financial situation and needs personal accountability and guidance to face and meet their financial reality. Government programs do not offer that. People do. People who know them, love them and care about them as people and not as statistics, but as individuals who reflect the image of God.

[GothicGyrl]

To save space, I won't quote your whole post just to say what I'm going to, Tutor.

 

I understand what you are saying and for YOU, those are YOUR reasons, which work/don't work. For ME, they do not and your reasons just are not reason enough to deny my children what I can get for them.

 

As for the husband, sorry--why should her and the kids suffer because of his ignorance? I understand that he may need help, but how long do her and her kids have to suffer while he gets/doesn't get this help? Nope, for me, I'm taking the active role away from him and I'm going to go get it, go do it, do whatever I have to, to get whatever my kids needs. I'm not sitting around waiting on him or anyone else to "help" him.

[Tutor]

Who said I wanted them to suffer? I want them to get the help they need. I just think that there are places to get the food the kids and mom need and the accountability and wake-up call the dh needs.

[Mama Bear]

The only drawback to this program is that you can't be picky about having organic, hormone-free milk. If the government if offering it for free, they are going to choose the cheapest brands for everything, but if the choice was between being able to afford groceries or not, I would (and have) chosen feeding the kids every time.

 

 

Actually, here organic milk is covered under WIC. Cereal options, however, are abyssmal. Cheerios or Grape-nuts are the only things I'd let my kids eat off the "approved" list. Bizarre the way things are decided.

[Nestof3]

Excellent post, Tutor.

[Mama Bear]

WIC represents will actually put you just over the line into the black every month, then you OBVIOUSLY NEED IT. I've BTDT, needing exactly $25/mo to remain solvent, feeding/clothing/cleaning for six of us on $400/mo. When you're there, you're there. This does not make you a leech of any magnitude. You write as someone who is concerned enough about the issues you raise to make sure that you'll pay it forward whenever you are able.

 

Make sure that your dh is truly clear on the amounts in question, then do it, already.

[Tutor]

On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?

 

 

 

Honestly? I think that if everyone who qualified used the programs available, the government would say, "Look at all these people who need assistance. To meet the need, we are going to implement these new programs for which even more citizens qualify." And of course taxes would go up and freedoms would diminish.

 

Our family qualifies for most of the programs which have been brought up in this thread, but we have never used them. As "insiders" :D who live in the poorest state in the union (based on 2000 per capita income data), we are actually hoping to organize a protest of these programs. A mass exodus of poor families and individuals from government programs to private assistance, training, accountability and encouragement. We've never done anything like this before but are confident it can be done. (If anyone has any pointers, we're all ears. :bigear:)

[Susan in TX]

On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?

 

 

I think that the government would be very happy if everyone who qualified for the government's programs used them. The government views it as a problem when those who should be getting this help aren't.

 

Also, these programs don't just help the individuals served. Ultimately, they help the overall economy. These government programs provide jobs for many people. And foodstamps and WIC, provide increased profits for local grocery stores.

 

So, one could argue that by NOT using WIC the original poster is not only depriving her children of nutritious food, she is also depriving her local economy of the funds that would be generated by her WIC purchases.

 

Susan in TX

[Nestof3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aubrey

On the one hand, I feel like everyone who qualifies for govt programs should use them. If nothing else, as an act of protest. I mean, what else would get the govt's attention faster than if all the families who qualified for all the govt programs suddenly started *using* them?

 

Honestly? I think that if everyone who qualified used the programs available, the government would say, "Look at all these people who need assistance. To meet the need, we are going to implement these new programs for which even more citizens qualify." And of course taxes would go up and freedoms would diminish.

 

 

ITA here as well. This is what happened to public school. It began to assist those who could not afford to educate their own through tutors and such but now they are the ones setting the standard for everyone else. Now, homeschoolers are having to defend themselves -- to prove themselves.

 

In England, there has been talk of a forced vaccination on teen girls between the ages of 12-17 which will act as a birth control because the amount it costs their socialized government to care for these unwanted, unplanned children and their mothers.

[Nestof3]

These government programs provide jobs for many people. And foodstamps and WIC, provide increased profits for local grocery stores.

 

So, one could argue that by NOT using WIC the original poster is not only depriving her children of nutritious food, she is also depriving her local economy of the funds that would be generated by her WIC purchases.

 

 

:confused:

 

My money is supposed to be taken away from me to provide a job for someone? Are you serious?

[Nestof3]

Here's an interesting find about WIC and the price of infant formula:

 

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr39-1/fanrr39-1_researchbrief.pdf

[Susan in TX]

Here's an interesting find about WIC and the price of infant formula:

 

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr39-1/fanrr39-1_researchbrief.pdf

 

This publication states that HALF of the infants in the US are receiving WIC. That is a sobering statistic. Why should anyone feel guilty for accepting aid that 50% of other parents are receiving? And what does this say about the economic conditions that 50 percent of America's children are being raised in?

 

Susan in TX

[Susan in TX]

:confused:

 

My money is supposed to be taken away from me to provide a job for someone? Are you serious?

 

Well, what do you think would happen to our economy if all government jobs were eliminated? Your tax dollars provide a lot of jobs for a lot of people, both directly and indirectly.

 

Susan in TX

[GothicGyrl]

Let's face it, our economy is tanking right now. If a genuine study shows that half of the infants in this country qualify and use WIC, that is indeed a sobering thought--one that should make people wake up and realize that our current government is just not doing what it promised.

 

Right now, there is talk(and I hope it isn't true) of Truck Drivers across the country striking due to rising gas prices. They are striking because as of next week, many companies are parking all of their trucks--they simply cannot afford the gas.

 

Which means---NO DELIVERIES of any kind to anywhere. Think about this carefully. If we lose our truck drivers, our economy is dead. And WIC will be the least of peoples problems. My neighbor is a driver for Sysco and he is terrified about this because his Union Rep basically told them all "be ready".

 

The corporations who run the Oil NETTED BILLIONS last year in PROFIT (that's after all bills paid,etc). Why then are we paying 4.35 a gallon for diesel and 3.25 a gallon for regular? There is no reason for this, none.

 

Honestly, Tutor, this is alarmist thinking:

Honestly? I think that if everyone who qualified used the programs available, the government would say, "Look at all these people who need assistance. To meet the need, we are going to implement these new programs for which even more citizens qualify." And of course taxes would go up and freedoms would diminish.

 

We are already losing freedoms and our taxes are already going up and it has nothing to do with government help programs like WIC. And if the government hasn't figured out that by the time *I* am able to claim Social Security it won't be there, that they'll figure this out? They can't even figure out how to lower costs on gas prices without ticking of a foreign country or some rich oil tycoon who thinks he'll miss a couple hundred thousand out of his paycheck.

 

I'm not arguing with you and I'm not mad at you or anyone else Tutor ;).. this whole thing, not just this WIC discussion, has got me upset. The economy, gas prices, etc...

[Tutor]

Well, what do you think would happen to our economy if all government jobs were eliminated?

 

In the short-term, there would be a recession. In the long term, private industry would be created to replace the government agencies lost that provided needed services. Since those former gov't employees would have experience in those areas, they would be highly sought after employees (if they, themselves, weren't the entrepreneurs behind the new businesses).

 

 

This publication states that HALF of the infants in the US are receiving WIC. That is a sobering statistic.... And what does this say about the economic conditions that 50 percent of America's children are being raised in?

 

It doesn't say anything about the economic conditions of 50% of America's children, but it speaks volumes as to the too-generous eligibility requirements of the program. (Just as an anecdotal aside... My family of six could bring in almost 3x what we do now and still be eligible for WIC. We are currently not on any gov't assistance.)

 

 

Why should anyone feel guilty for accepting aid that 50% of other parents are receiving?

 

Just because it's popular doesn't make it right.

[Tutor]

I'm not arguing with you and I'm not mad at you or anyone else Tutor ;).. this whole thing, not just this WIC discussion, has got me upset. The economy, gas prices, etc...

 

Well, you are arguing, but I am glad you are.:D (You know how much I like a good argument.) I know that you are not mad at me or anyone else, just as I am not at you. I am glad that there is concern bordering on panic. I hope it spurs more discussion and lots of action.

 

(And you are right about what you quoted from my post. I should have said "continuing" tax increases and loss of freedoms. Thanks for pointing that out. :001_smile:)

[K&Rs Mom]

In the short-term, there would be a recession. In the long term, private industry would be created to replace the government agencies lost that provided needed services. Since those former gov't employees would have experience in those areas, they would be highly sought after employees (if they, themselves, weren't the entrepreneurs behind the new businesses).

 

That's my theory too....

 

I am sometimes amazed how much we think government is "supposed to" do. It's a huge part of our culture (like outschooling). It would be interesting, now that we have the technology, if someone would do some computer modeling of a move back to what the constitution says the government is for. It would be a rough transition, no doubt, but shouldn't we learn from the example of the Romans instead of following the same path to destruction? (Okay, that's a little dramatic, I admit)

[Susan in TX]

"Slightly over half of all Americans – 52.6 percent – now receive significant income from government programs"

 

"about 1 in 5 Americans hold a government job or a job reliant on federal spending. A similar number receive Social Security or a government pension. About 19 million others get food stamps, 2 million get subsidized housing, and 5 million get education grants."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0416/p01s04-usec.htm

 

The fact is that our current economy is very dependent upon government spending and suddenly changing that would result in more than just a recession. Eliminating all government jobs would result in a 20% unemployment rate, which would just go up because that 20% of unemployed would no longer have money to spend, so other businesses would suffer, resulting in more unemployed. This would become a downward spiral and a deep hole that I think would be impossible to dig out of without government intervention...think Great Depression.

 

Susan in TX

[Aubrey]

ITA here as well. This is what happened to public school. It began to assist those who could not afford to educate their own through tutors and such but now they are the ones setting the standard for everyone else. Now, homeschoolers are having to defend themselves -- to prove themselves.

 

Just wanted to note that in the quote you attributed to me, only half of what's quoted is mine. The second paragraph belongs to Tutor.

 

And she has a good point, it could go either way. When I reread my own post, I realized I'd left out my main point, so the fact that y'all have been able to make heads or tails of it is really impressive.

 

As long as I'm here, I'd like to add that I didn't nec. mean that I think it's right for everyone who's eligible for WIC (etc) to sign up for it. Otoh, if the system itself is unjust, how much worse is it for people who qualify to not use the program? Not worse in a moral sense, but in the sense that it's even less just.

 

For ex, Tutor has said that her family qualifies for WIC but will not use it. She has also said that a family making 3x as much would qualify as well (w same # kids, etc.). How much *more* unfair is it for that family to take adv of this opportunity when she does not? Not to say that either family is wrong, just...I'd like it to be fair, kwim?

 

And it makes me wonder...do families forego such opportunities for the right reasons? Shouldn't we question that as much as acceptance of them? I mean, ideally speaking? Just musing, that's all.

[Aubrey]

(My family of six could bring in almost 3x what we do now and still be eligible for WIC.)

 

Just curious--how do you know this? I mean, I know you can look up the income guidelines, but I'm asking what prompted you to look?

 

And if that comes across snarky, just ignore me!

[Tutor]

No one suggested changing it suddenly, and the unemployment rate would temporarily be 20% if everything changed overnight... which, again, no one is suggesting.

 

Change hurts, but change is necessary. Our government can't afford to continue functioning at its current capacity.

[Tutor]

I was prompted to look it up because I was commenting directly about the program's guidelines and I always double check facts before I post so that I know that my thoughts are still factually accurate or if I need to reevaluate them (and so I don't look like an idiot). :)

[Aubrey]

I was prompted to look it up because I was commenting directly about the program's guidelines and I always double check facts before I post so that I know that my thoughts are still factually accurate or if I need to reevaluate them (and so I don't look like an idiot). :)

 

You know, I figured that after I posted, but at the time I was wondering if you'd ever felt differently about gov't assistance. You know, if you'd considered it, & afterwards come to your current conclusions.

 

I guess I was just curious about the journey/line of thinking that brought you to where you are. I've seen people here post similar opinions, but yours stands out somehow.

 

I've posted before about similar questions, & I am still not sure where I stand. I see good arguments on both sides & the potential to hurt people (unintentionally) on both sides, too, whether by shaming people out of accepting help they need or by accepting/ encouraging the acceptance of other people's hard-earned money when it's not needed.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Nestof3]

And it makes me wonder...do families forego such opportunities for the right reasons? Shouldn't we question that as much as acceptance of them?

 

I see no reason to question why someone wouldn't sign up for something just because they qualify. I don't at ALL understand what you are saying.

[Aubrey]

I see no reason to question why someone wouldn't sign up for something just because they qualify. I don't at ALL understand what you are saying.

 

I meant 2 things.

 

1. Self-reflection. We (people) get *really* concerned (well, not *all* people) about whether it's right to accept various forms of help. Otoh, we don't seem to worry (ourselves) about whether it's ok to reject help. I mean, even from friends. Help in general. I think it's just as important to reflect on our motives for rejecting help as it is to reflect on our motives for accepting help.

 

2. In judging others. I think we find it very easy to say that people are wrong for accepting help, but when they reject it, we tend to see that as good, self-reliant, etc. Which it can be & usually is--I'm just saying that if we're going to judge each other, we're leaving some people out. We tend to assume that those who reject help do so out of principle (good ones) and not out of pride.

 

Please don't take that the wrong way. I just always try to look at both sides of things, for the sake of better understanding a situation. The various discussions of poverty on this board really get me down. We seem to all agree that the poor should be helped, we just can't agree who the poor are. We always point to people in 3rd world countries who are worse off than us, but I wonder sometimes, if *those* people with all *their* foibles lived next door, would we resent helping them, too?

 

My conclusion lately is that it's better for everyone to help people as far away as possible, so that we can maintain an idealized picture of what the poor are supposed to look like. Honest people who work hard who through NO fault of their own are homeless & desperate.

 

And in case this sounds rude, I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I think this way about poor people, too. My finger's pointed at ME. Y'all's arguments all sound well-reasoned, or else I'd at least know where I stand on *this* issue. And there are people who abuse the system, to various degrees. Because of them on the one hand & those who judge so harshly on the other, I hope to never, ever, ever be that desperate. Because I probably won't fit the idealized picture of a poor person.

 

And really, I'm not mad at anybody. I'm just really, really sad that this issue is so difficult.