Help! DS strongly requested switch from TOG to (well anything) Notgrass?

[momee]

He wants simple, to the point, one year AM History for 11th grade.

 

I'm fine with the switch. I think he'll enjoy it much more. I cannot continue to make him want to do TOG. With that curricula, I think the student has to be extremely motivated for it to work.

 

My concern at this moment is lit. What do we do for that? He wants to read. He likes to read. But, he's sooo burnt out on great works from the Medieval period, I need to be careful to encourage that love of reading and not hit him over the head with heavy laden text.

 

I was peeking at LL - doesn't quite look like "enough". SL looks "below grade level" at least in Core 100. BFeet same thing. AO, how much fun are those books, really??

 

Maybe I need to get out my WTM/WEM notes again. UGH! Just when I think I'm in one camp - he goes and changes the plan. I didn't like doing WTM/WEM because I felt we were never doing it right or doing enough.

 

Note to self for other children:

don't make firm plans.

allow for individuality.

 

Any thoughts? Lori D? Anyone????

[Amy in CO]

Have you looked at Excellence in Literature.

http://www.everyday-education.com/englishclasses/index.shtml

 

They have an American book.

 

I am having my dd do a couple of this year from that. We start it on Monday, so I can't tell you how it is going, but I really like the looks of it.

[Donna A.]

Notgrass has a literature package that you can purchase to go along with the history course. (Or you could purchase the books elsewhere, I guess.) Have you looked at that?

 

Scroll down toward the bottom to see the book titles: http://www.notgrass.com/american-history-high-school-curriculum.php

[JennW in SoCal]

 

My concern at this moment is lit. What do we do for that? He wants to read. He likes to read. But, he's sooo burnt out on great works from the Medieval period, I need to be careful to encourage that love of reading and not hit him over the head with heavy laden text.

 

 

What do you do for literature? Why, have some fun with it!! You don't need a literature program, just start looking at lists of American literature and decide what he would like. There was a thread recently on American Literature which had some great titles that I hadn't considered, such as the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. There are many enjoyable and readable books to keep your son busy for a year and you can use the WTM or WEM questions for discussing them and coming up with essay topics.

 

Off the top of my head:

 

Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer

Red Badge of Courage

Little Women (though your ds might balk at that!!)

To Kill a Mockingbird

Great Gatsby

Catcher in the Rye

Edgar Allen Poe works

Fahrenheit 451

Animal Farm

Grapes of Wrath or other John Steinbeck

 

There are plays, as well

Death of a Salesman

Our Town

Raisin in the Sun

The Crucible

 

Poetry, of course -- Walt Whitman and Emily Dickinson come to mind.

 

And all kinds of good popular fiction. My ds loved, for instance, Herman Wouk's Caine Mutiny about life and a mutiny on a ship in the Pacific during WWII.

 

I planned a semester of American History around 20th century theater and entertainment, then spent the other semester focusing on WWI and WWII. For the theater semester, my ds read plays, memoirs and biographies of playwrights and movie moguls, watched the PBS documentary series on Broadway. He loved it and it fit his passion for theater. I bring this up to encourage you to mine your son's interests when looking for material -- there are all kinds of biographies and memoirs of naturalists and sports figures which can really illuminate a period of history. It is still worthwhile reading even if it isn't on a list of "great books". Don't be afraid to step outside of the curriculum box!!

[April in CA]

Hi Momee,

I am sorry that your son is not enjoying TOG! But, no program fits everyone, and I am glad you have an idea of what you would like to do for Am History. I would suggest adding in some of the Teaching Company's lectures (I like them on DVD since my mind wanders if I am just listening - but that is way off topic!)

 

As far as Lit goes, have you considered Total Language Plus? They have three units that work together to cover American literature with short stories, poetry, and (I think) nonfiction. It looked very interesting last year when I saw it at our Homeschool Convention. Excellence in Literature (you can get the Am Lit and Brit Lit from IEW) also looks very good; that features novels rather than other types of literature.

 

Good luck finding just the right thing for you and your son!

Blessings,

April

[Lori D.]

Well, we're really loving Notgrass American History this year; the writing is very engaging (not textbook-like), makes connections, covers interesting aspects of history, includes interesting worldview points. I esp. like the "American Voices" volume with all of the source documents and writings from authors of the times. The Notgrass History is definitely designed for a student to do one their own, so you could just hand it to your student. Take a look at the sample pages and see what you think.

 

table of contents (text) = http://www.notgrass.com/exploring_america_toc.pdf

table of contents (source document vol.) = http://www.notgrass.com/american_voices_toc.pdf

sample chapter = http://www.notgrass.com/exploring_america_unit4.pdf

sample questions/quizzes booklet = http://www.notgrass.com/exploring_america_quiz.pdf

 

 

Side Note: we're also doing our Government credit right now, which REALLY ties in/overlaps VERY nicely with the American History!

 

 

HOWEVER, instead of using the Notgrass lit. component (which is really just a supplemental reading list and NOT a literature course, IMO), we made our own Amer. Lit.

 

I decided to go heavy on the short stories this year so we could get in more works (we can cover 2 short stories in 1 week that way!). A one-semester lit. program we're using as a sort-of "spine" is Learning Language Arts Through Literature: Gold: American Literature. Of the works covered in LLATL, we are using 3 of the 10 short stories; 5 of the 10 poets; and 2 of the 3 novellas. We also use additional individual lit. guides that go with each work for more in-depth analysis.

 

 

You mentioned Lightning Lit. Perhaps combine LL and LLATL using works from each, and using the LL to go more in-depth. While I haven't used the high school levels of LL, from what others say, I don't think the LL is "lite" -- it is a deeper focus on fewer works each semester. JMO: the early-mid Amer. Lit looked very heavy and dull (Moby Dick, Scarlet Letter, autobiographies of Ben Franklin and Frederick Douglass); the mid-late Amer. Lit looked more interesting (Huckleberry Finn, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Red Badge of Courage, Call of the Wild).

 

AND, while you're having the best of both worlds (lol) be sure to pull in some of the historical fiction and non-fiction books from the high school levels of Sonlight or Ambleside Online year 11 just for fun and personal interest! Again, JMO, but I think it is fine to read some works below reading level. I'm having our DSs (gr. 10/11) pick from some of those SL books for solo reading to flesh out the history.

 

 

Here are two past threads on doing "Great Books" or WTM lit. with "boxed" programs:

 

...About Lightning Lit and The Great Books

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51473

 

Is boxed curriculum no longer sufficient for high school credit?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153360

 

 

And here is a past thread on how people make their own lit. course/list: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160309

 

 

And here are past threads on how other people do a Great Books study:

 

Please share how you do history ala WTM Great Books

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78332

 

Does anyone do high school history/lit ala WTM/WEM?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81682&highlight=high+school

 

Tell me about your traditional lit/history high school courses

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77827&highlight=high+school

 

 

Here's how we do a sort-of WTM-style literature:

1. read background on the author/times

2. if we're moving into a specific type of literature or genre (i.e., romanticism; realism; etc.) we read about that

3. we read the work aloud (or listen to a book-on-tape version); or, read each separately and make a few notes in the margins

4. we discuss as we read (themes; literary elements that jump out; use of language; worldview; compare to previous authors/works; etc.)

5. we read aloud/discuss together a lit. guide on the work, using some of the questions

6. at the end of the work, I try to have them do a writing assignment on the work -- sometimes it is just a paragraph or two (ex: answering a discussion from the lit. guide); sometimes we work for a longer literary analysis essay

 

 

FWIW, below is what we narrowed our Amer. Lit down to from the huge list I started with last summer. I also included what lit. guides/resources we're using with each. BEST of luck in deciding what to go with! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

4 novels

- Scarlet Letter (Hawthorne) = Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit; Glencoe; Sparknotes

- Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (Twain) = Progeny Press; Sparknotes

- Call of the Wild (London) = Worldviews in Literature: Naturalism; Glencoe; Sparknotes

- Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald) = Progeny Press; Sparknotes

 

 

4 novellas

- Billy Budd (Melville) = Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; The Great Books; Sparknotes

- Old Man and the Sea (Hemingway) = Progeny Press; LLATL; Sparknotes

- The Pearl (Steinbeck) = LLATL; Sparknotes

- I Heard the Owl Call My Name (Craven) = online guides

(Holt, Rienhart & Winston: http://eolit.hrw.com/hlla/novelguides/hs/Mini-Guide.Craven.pdf)

(St. Boniventure Univ.: http://sched.sbu.edu/Faculty/pschafer/read512/owlcontent.html)

(Irving ISD: http://www.irvingisd.net/curriculum/documents/language_arts/7-8GT/unit-I%20Heard%20the%20Owl%20Call%20My%20Name%20unit.pdf)

 

 

WATCH 3 plays (and read Sparknotes about each)

- Our Town

- Death of a Salesman

- A Raisin in the Sun

 

 

short stories (1 week = 2 short stories)

- Rip Van Winkle; Legend of Sleepy Hollow (Irving) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; Cummings Study Guide (http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides3/Winkle.html); Mr. Gunnar's English class notes (http://www.mrgunnar.net/english.cfm?subpage=349357)

- Fall of the House of Usher (Poe) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit; Sparknotes

- The Raven (poem by Poe) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.

- Man Without a Country (Horton) -- just for fun (in the Notgrass)

- Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge (Bierce) -- Sparknotes; Cummings guide (http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides4/owl.html#Top)

- The Luck of Roaring Camp (Harte) -- Sparknotes

- The Ransom of Red Chief (Henry) -- just for fun

- The Open Boat (Crane) -- LLATL

- Thank You Ma'am (Hughes) -- just for fun

- The Catbird Seat (Thurber) -- LLATL

- There Will Come Soft Rains (Bradbury)

- The Ones Who Walked Away (LeGuin)

- A Good Man is Hard to Find (O'Conner)

- Revelation (O'Conner)

 

(I haven't pulled together online resources for those last short stories yet.)

 

 

EXCERPTS from essays/autobiographies

- 1 chapter from Frederick Douglass' autobiography -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.

- Self Reliance (Emerson) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; The Great Books

- Civil Disobedience (Thoreau) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; The Great Books

 

 

poetry (half of the 10 poets from LLATL Gold: Amer. Lit.)

- Emily Dickinson

- Walt Whitman

- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

- Robert Frost

- E.E. Cummings -- or -- W.H. Auden

 

 

Done Previously, but these would fit nicely into Amer. Lit:

- Gift of the Magi (Henry) -- short story; IEW's Windows to the World

- The Most Dangerous Game (Connell) -- short story; IEW's Windows to the World; Cummings guide (http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides3/Dangerous.html)

- Bride Comes to Yellow Sky (Crane) -- short story

- Story of My Life (Helen Keller) -- autobiography

- Adventures of Tom Sawyer (Twain) -- novel

- To Kill a Mockingbird (Lee) -- Discovering Lit. series from Garlic Press Pub.; Sparknotes

[April in CA]

Hello again, Momee,

Do you have all 4 years of TOG Redesigned? If you do, you can pick out several American works from years 3 and 4 to study using TOG's assignments. Just a thought! We are finishing year 4 this year, and my sons have really enjoyed many of the TOG literature selections. (we are d oing To Kill a Mockingbird now - excellent!)

Blessings again,

April

[momofgals]

Well, we're really loving Notgrass American History this year; the writing is very engaging (not textbook-like), makes connections, covers interesting aspects of history, includes interesting worldview points. I esp. like the "American Voices" volume with all of the source documents and writings from authors of the times. The Notgrass History is definitely designed for a student to do one their own, so you could just hand it to your student. Take a look at the sample pages and see what you think.

 

table of contents (text) = http://www.notgrass.com/exploring_america_toc.pdf

table of contents (source document vol.) = http://www.notgrass.com/american_voices_toc.pdf

sample chapter = http://www.notgrass.com/exploring_america_unit4.pdf

sample questions/quizzes booklet = http://www.notgrass.com/exploring_america_quiz.pdf

 

 

Side Note: we're also doing our Government credit right now, which REALLY ties in/overlaps VERY nicely with the American History!

 

 

HOWEVER, instead of using the Notgrass lit. component (which is really just a supplemental reading list and NOT a literature course, IMO), we made our own Amer. Lit.

 

I decided to go heavy on the short stories this year so we could get in more works (we can cover 2 short stories in 1 week that way!). A one-semester lit. program we're using as a sort-of "spine" is Learning Language Arts Through Literature: Gold: American Literature. Of the works covered in LLATL, we are using 3 of the 10 short stories; 5 of the 10 poets; and 2 of the 3 novellas. We also use additional individual lit. guides that go with each work for more in-depth analysis.

 

 

You mentioned Lightning Lit. Perhaps combine LL and LLATL using works from each, and using the LL to go more in-depth. While I haven't used the high school levels of LL, from what others say, I don't think the LL is "lite" -- it is a deeper focus on fewer works each semester. JMO: the early-mid Amer. Lit looked very heavy and dull (Moby Dick, Scarlet Letter, autobiographies of Ben Franklin and Frederick Douglass); the mid-late Amer. Lit looked more interesting (Huckleberry Finn, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Red Badge of Courage, Call of the Wild).

 

AND, while you're having the best of both worlds (lol) be sure to pull in some of the historical fiction and non-fiction books from the high school levels of Sonlight or Ambleside Online year 11 just for fun and personal interest! Again, JMO, but I think it is fine to read some works below reading level. I'm having our DSs (gr. 10/11) pick from some of those SL books for solo reading to flesh out the history.

 

 

Here are two past threads on doing "Great Books" or WTM lit. with "boxed" programs:

 

...About Lightning Lit and The Great Books

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51473

 

Is boxed curriculum no longer sufficient for high school credit?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153360

 

 

And here is a past thread on how people make their own lit. course/list: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160309

 

 

And here are past threads on how other people do a Great Books study:

 

Please share how you do history ala WTM Great Books

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78332

 

Does anyone do high school history/lit ala WTM/WEM?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81682&highlight=high+school

 

Tell me about your traditional lit/history high school courses

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77827&highlight=high+school

 

 

Here's how we do a sort-of WTM-style literature:

1. read background on the author/times

2. if we're moving into a specific type of literature or genre (i.e., romanticism; realism; etc.) we read about that

3. we read the work aloud (or listen to a book-on-tape version); or, read each separately and make a few notes in the margins

4. we discuss as we read (themes; literary elements that jump out; use of language; worldview; compare to previous authors/works; etc.)

5. we read aloud/discuss together a lit. guide on the work, using some of the questions

6. at the end of the work, I try to have them do a writing assignment on the work -- sometimes it is just a paragraph or two (ex: answering a discussion from the lit. guide); sometimes we work for a longer literary analysis essay

 

 

FWIW, below is what we narrowed our Amer. Lit down to from the huge list I started with last summer. I also included what lit. guides/resources we're using with each. BEST of luck in deciding what to go with! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

4 novels

- Scarlet Letter (Hawthorne) = Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit; Glencoe; Sparknotes

- Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (Twain) = Progeny Press; Sparknotes

- Call of the Wild (London) = Worldviews in Literature: Naturalism; Glencoe; Sparknotes

- Great Gatsby (Fitzgerald) = Progeny Press; Sparknotes

 

 

4 novellas

- Billy Budd (Melville) = Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; The Great Books; Sparknotes

- Old Man and the Sea (Hemingway) = Progeny Press; LLATL; Sparknotes

- The Pearl (Steinbeck) = LLATL; Sparknotes

- I Heard the Owl Call My Name (Craven) = online guides

(Holt, Rienhart & Winston: http://eolit.hrw.com/hlla/novelguides/hs/Mini-Guide.Craven.pdf)

(St. Boniventure Univ.: http://sched.sbu.edu/Faculty/pschafer/read512/owlcontent.html)

(Irving ISD: http://www.irvingisd.net/curriculum/documents/language_arts/7-8GT/unit-I%20Heard%20the%20Owl%20Call%20My%20Name%20unit.pdf)

 

 

WATCH 3 plays (and read Sparknotes about each)

- Our Town

- Death of a Salesman

- A Raisin in the Sun

 

 

short stories (1 week = 2 short stories)

- Rip Van Winkle; Legend of Sleepy Hollow (Irving) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; Cummings Study Guide (http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides3/Winkle.html); Mr. Gunnar's English class notes (http://www.mrgunnar.net/english.cfm?subpage=349357)

- Fall of the House of Usher (Poe) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit; Sparknotes

- The Raven (poem by Poe) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.

- Man Without a Country (Horton) -- just for fun (in the Notgrass)

- Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge (Bierce) -- Sparknotes; Cummings guide (http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides4/owl.html#Top)

- The Luck of Roaring Camp (Harte) -- Sparknotes

- The Ransom of Red Chief (Henry) -- just for fun

- The Open Boat (Crane) -- LLATL

- Thank You Ma'am (Hughes) -- just for fun

- The Catbird Seat (Thurber) -- LLATL

- There Will Come Soft Rains (Bradbury)

- The Ones Who Walked Away (LeGuin)

- A Good Man is Hard to Find (O'Conner)

- Revelation (O'Conner)

 

(I haven't pulled together online resources for those last short stories yet.)

 

 

EXCERPTS from essays/autobiographies

- 1 chapter from Frederick Douglass' autobiography -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.

- Self Reliance (Emerson) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; The Great Books

- Civil Disobedience (Thoreau) -- Norton Anth. of Amer. Lit.; The Great Books

 

 

poetry (half of the 10 poets from LLATL Gold: Amer. Lit.)

- Emily Dickinson

- Walt Whitman

- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

- Robert Frost

- E.E. Cummings -- or -- W.H. Auden

 

 

Done Previously, but these would fit nicely into Amer. Lit:

- Gift of the Magi (Henry) -- short story; IEW's Windows to the World

- The Most Dangerous Game (Connell) -- short story; IEW's Windows to the World; Cummings guide (http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides3/Dangerous.html)

- Bride Comes to Yellow Sky (Crane) -- short story

- Story of My Life (Helen Keller) -- autobiography

- Adventures of Tom Sawyer (Twain) -- novel

- To Kill a Mockingbird (Lee) -- Discovering Lit. series from Garlic Press Pub.; Sparknotes

 

What a goldmine of links and ideas! Thank you so much for taking the time to write it all out.

[Mom2boys]

Well, we're really loving Notgrass American History this year; the writing is very engaging (not textbook-like), makes connections, covers interesting aspects of history, includes interesting worldview points. I esp. like the "American Voices" volume with all of the source documents and writings from authors of the times. The Notgrass History is definitely designed for a student to do one their own, so you could just hand it to your student. Take a look at the sample pages and see what you think.

 

 

Wow Lori D. Thanks so much! I'm printing this out for future reference.

[momee]

Lots to think about. Thanks for your input and time spent to help me.

[jewel7123]

Thanks Lori D. for such a long and detailed post!

 

Momee....I'm actually surprised to see that you are switching from TOG. I recognize you from the many TOG threads I have read the past month or two and I always thought you were positive about your TOG experience. Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail the reasons why you are making the switch and what you dislike about TOG (or what your son dislikes, as I guess his opinion does matter as well, lol.) One of the major selling points of TOG (at least for me) is the D and R levels where TOG gets so meaty you have all the teacher's notes and questions, etc. I guess I haven't heard yet of someone who used TOG during the lower levels and then switched in high school.

[momee]

That's such a long answer ;)

I pm'd you.

 

Short answer, here - reason #8

8. You want a program that focuses on the “Great Books” that are part of the “Great Conversation.”

 

Sonlight Curriculum is committed to introducing students to a large number of the most influential “Great Books” and authors of the Western intellectual tradition. We also desire to help our students enter into the “Great Conversation” of Western culture.

However, we want to introduce students to literature at a point when they are ready to interact with the material on a deep level and pursue those books and ideas with interest and passion. Therefore, we typically wait until slightly later than the typical “classical education” timeline to introduce certain works. We find it more appropriate to deal with some issues in college or the adult years rather than during high school. When they reach a certain age, students who love to learn will study—on their own—the “Great Books” they desire to read. We parent-teachers don’t need to (and, in fact, ought not to) push our students into reading such works before they are ready. Such an approach will not only overwhelm them, but leave them with a bad taste in their mouths: “Once I’m done with school, I will be so glad! I won’t have to read any more of these boring books!”

As one mom wrote, “The Great Books will be drudgery to anyone not yet taken captive by the Great Questions, the Big Ideas. If you are not yet given to pondering the meaning of life, it is doubtful you are ready to read the ponderings of others [on these subjects]!”

Instead of cramming in as many classics as one can possibly schedule in a year, we offer a variety of engaging works designed to give students a taste of great literature and leave them hungry for more. We intersperse more challenging books with light-hearted ones to give children a balance to their selection and avoid burn-out. Our goal is to raise children who love to read and love to learn. We prefer to pursue this aim than check off every box when it comes to the “Great Books.” If you want a curriculum that—without exception—requires students to read every title deemed “Great,” you won’t find your fit with Sonlight.

Edited March 30, 2010 by momee

[elegantlion]

Just subscribing for future reference.

[siloam]

I wish my kids liked SL books, they don't. Not that they love TOG books, but it is easier for me to substitute with TOG if I do find something they like.

 

Sigh...

 

Have you looked at the SL 400 Lit? It is American authors, though I don't think American history.

 

To be honest the only way that TOG works here is because I slow it down. I have 4 dyslexic students and only one who likes history. If I tired to do TOG as scheduled, we would have mass riots (or the at home equivalent, 2yo type meltdowns). I actually don't have a lot of hope of doing much of the R level work, ever. If I do it will only be because we do it at half or quarter pace. I don't know if that helps, but know that you are not alone in being frustrated with balancing academics with desire.

 

Heather

[jewel7123]

So is TOG really that advanced compared to the other curriculum on the market? I haven't done that much research for high school since my kids are VERY little, lol, but I am curious. Could someone possibly do LG for 1-4th, UG for 5-8th and D for 9-12 and never get to R level of TOG and be just fine? Is that more "doable" if your kids are just average kids and not OVERLY ambitious and you don't want to experience the TOG burnout? Is R level truly college level work?

[jewel7123]

bump

[TracyP]

MY OPINION: You are the teacher - you decide what counts for high school credit.:001_smile: Looking at my local school, the D level history and lit are equal to what they are doing.

 

TOG OPINION: 9th grade D absolutely hs credit, 10th grade and up should go into Rhetoric. The lit sounds like it can be pretty rugged. I have seen them suggest doing 1-2 lit assignments in depth for a struggling R student. Then choosing from R or D reading for other weeks but not requiring as much analysis.

 

Hopefully someone at that level can add something, but this is my understanding.

[momee]

Wow. I did think I was the only one, but I'm sure if I look around, I'll find that's not the case.

 

I am going to have to get back to you on some of those questions. I am answering not to dishonor TOG. It is a fantastic curricula. The people involved are amazing.

The depth, expectation, choice, worldview instruction, and emphasis on more than just history and lit as you move through the year plans are very much God inspired and worthwhile.

 

Please no one interpret my comments as an attack on them at all. I really! admire the work and the dedication to excellence displayed by TOG workers and writers.

[jewel7123]

Wow. I did think I was the only one, but I'm sure if I look around, I'll find that's not the case.

 

I am going to have to get back to you on some of those questions. I am answering not to dishonor TOG. It is a fantastic curricula. The people involved are amazing.

The depth, expectation, choice, worldview instruction, and emphasis on more than just history and lit as you move through the year plans are very much God inspired and worthwhile.

 

Please no one interpret my comments as an attack on them at all. I really! admire the work and the dedication to excellence displayed by TOG workers and writers.

 

Momee, you can give your honest opinion based on your own experience and it's not a personal attack on Tapestry of Grace. :001_smile: You're not posting on the TOG message board....here I would hope people could give their fair and unbiased opinions without fear of retaliation. :D

[momee]

Jennifer, maybe looking at someone like karenciavo or Jana in NC's comments of late regarding TOG. Their children seem to actually enjoy the rhetoric level.

 

My guy is a different type of kid. Not every kid is resistant to Great Works at this age.

 

We did have fun with it, sometimes :)

THis past unit was fantastic really looking back. We had our own mini co-op for a period of time this year only doing the lit choices. We worked through Canterbury Tales. The kids read them, the little kids read Chanticleer. We studied Chaucer's life. We did a skit. One of the boys rewrote his own version of a scene - his idea - and videotaped it. The littles drew scenes of their story and learned about Michaelangelo's inventions.

No burnout, no whining. Great learning.

We all enjoyed that. We had! to skip some of the selections after it - like Henry the somethingth (don't remember) Faustus, the Tempest, etc. We focused on Shakespeare and his life and watched and read versions of Much Ado About Nothing. My little girls absolutely LOVED and laughed and got most of the gist of the Much Ado Movie. We went on a field trip to the Blackfriar's theatre and learned even more about Shakepeare's plays.

They read Hamlet, watched it and actually tolerated it.

They all! learned together.

Did we follow the curricula exactly? No. Was it more than they'd get in school????? OH YEAH.

If you can manage like that, you'll have a blast with TOG.

 

With four children and three teens stepping in for literature with us, I can't adjust what we're doing each week though like that.

HTH.

Edited March 31, 2010 by momee

[jewel7123]

Momee, is this where you're going to respond to my email or should I expect a reply to that as well? :D

Edited March 31, 2010 by jewel7123

[siloam]

Wow. I did think I was the only one, but I'm sure if I look around, I'll find that's not the case.

 

I am going to have to get back to you on some of those questions. I am answering not to dishonor TOG. It is a fantastic curricula. The people involved are amazing.

The depth, expectation, choice, worldview instruction, and emphasis on more than just history and lit as you move through the year plans are very much God inspired and worthwhile.

 

Please no one interpret my comments as an attack on them at all. I really! admire the work and the dedication to excellence displayed by TOG workers and writers.

 

I agree with Tracey as well, especially when I look at what other programs are doing.

 

It was when I looked over the lit worksheet for Gulliver's Travels that I came to that conclusion. This was a few years ago when I had more free time to read the Teacher Notes and look at what the R level was doing. That particular book has the child chart what governmental group of the time that each group in the book represented, and then draw from that what the author was saying about each group. I know the story, and had read the TN, and I remember thinking, "Sheesh! This would take me a week to do now, let alone all the reading, mapping and such that the child is supposed to do." Then I got to thinking about myself in high school and college. To be transparent my analytical skills didn't really start kicking in till my mid twenties. I honestly don't know if I could have pulled this assignment off till then. Maybe if I were doing TOG all along and was used to the discussion, but I didn't do anything near that level in high school or college (I was an Accounting Major though so I didn't do a lot of government or lit).

 

I honestly feel very small and unintelligent sometimes when looking at the R level of TOG. Not that I can't get it or do it, because I can. I just never could do it at the speed they schedule. Now part of that is because I am dyslexic and I can't read as fast as most people. The Teacher Notes general take me at least an hour to read through and get, while I have friends who can read them in half an hour. The depth is fabulous, the coordination is amazing, the flexibility of the program is wonderful, I don't mind the book choices either (though I am not picky), but the pace is too much here, and year 2 is considered the worst of all the years for pace.

 

Heather

 

Edited April 1, 2010 by siloam

[momee]

Just wanted to throw in Heather that work is on the back of some MAJOR work before it. EVERY week is like that.

 

I still can't get over the fact they have assigned 4 major Shakespeare plays and analysis work (on top of history, geog, philos etc) in 8 weeks. I talked to multiple hs lit teacher's.

 

HONORS seniors would not attempt that :)

[jewel7123]

So if Rhetoric is college level, and Dialectic is High School level, then what about Upper Grammar and Lower Grammar? Are they advanced work also? Or is there a big jump between LG and UG work, or UG and D?

[jewel7123]

Let me say that for me in particular, the major appeal of TOG is not the rigor, but rather keeping everyone on the same history cycle learning the same time period together, but at each child's individual level. I have three girls, all 2 grade levels apart, and my goal is to keep all of them together studying the same history cycle, but I don't want to sacrifice one child in the process (such as not having enough challenge for the oldest so the youngest can keep up, or the other way, where the youngest is being dragged along and not really learning much) I haven’t seen another History program that handles it like TOG does. I’ve looked at HOD and MFW as other options, but neither seemed to solve my issue. HOD doesn’t encourage combining and their TM’s are for a very specific age group and MFW claims to be the perfect curriculum for everyone ages 2nd-8th, but I’ve read threads that suggest otherwise. I have also looked at the spines listed for CTG, RTR, etc and thought them way over the level of a 2nd or 3rd grader and worry that my youngest would just be lost in the shuffle.

 

ETA: I also liked the sound of the teacher's notes and questions in TOG.

Edited March 31, 2010 by jewel7123

[DarlaS]

Have you looked into Oak Meadow? It's a textbook approach, but includes s syllabus to keep you on track, and I believe there is an American Lit class too.

 

History

 

English/Lit

[Elinor Everywhere]

So if Rhetoric is college level, and Dialectic is High School level, then what about Upper Grammar and Lower Grammar? Are they advanced work also? Or is there a big jump between LG and UG work, or UG and D?

 

Here I am! :-) I have to say that I've never used TOG at the LG level. We used SOTW alone for grades 1-2, then combines SOTW with Sonlight 3/4 for grades 3-4. We started TOG in 5th grade, with both kids doing UG for two units. It soon became clear my dd was ready for Dialectic by Unit 3, so I moved her up but kept my son in UG. There is a BIG step-up from UG to Dialectic, and from what I can see (but with no experience in yet) it looks to be another large leap to Rhetoric from Dialectic.

 

My son is ESL & also has a few learning disabilities, although he is holding his own in Latin, math & all his other subjects. But he is a slower reader, and he is not good at abstract thought. There is NO WAY he will be able (or desire) to do TOG Rhetoric (fully) in high school. My plan is to have him use the Dialectic level history core, but some of the literature I will move him up to Rhetoric, and will probably have him do the fine arts of Rhetoric as well. I will not require the level of analysis that I will expect out of my dd, but he will be able to read the books & discuss them with me. He is actually fairly good at making connections, and that is one of the aspects of TOG that I most prize.

 

IF I find that the literature isn't working out for him, I'll use Lightning Lit (I use that already, in addition to TOG). The History, Art/Music History, Fine Arts, Geography, etc. is more than enough in Dialectic for him. It's much more than I studied, and I was college prep (although not Honors). At this point my son intends to apprentice in a trade rather than go to college, but I am still educating him toward university if he changed his mind.

 

Ok...I've got to run my son to rugby practice. I hope that was a bit helpful!

[jewel7123]

Thanks for weighing in Elinor! Interesting to hear about the big step up from UG to D. Hmm.

[siloam]

Just wanted to throw in Heather that work is on the back of some MAJOR work before it. EVERY week is like that.

 

I still can't get over the fact they have assigned 4 major Shakespeare plays and analysis work (on top of history, geog, philos etc) in 8 weeks. I talked to multiple hs lit teacher's.

 

HONORS seniors would not attempt that :)

 

Yep, that is why I am planning on it taking us 6 years to do our next TOG round, and I wouldn't be surprised if it takes us longer. I pretty much do everything TOG offers (not all the activities, but everything else), but I take as long as needed to do it comfortably.

 

I will probably have to pull my oldest out of TOG (and maybe each child as they reach the end of the high school years) and do something condensed. What I am doing now with my oldest my very well be the last time she covers Modern history with TOG. That is depressing on one hand, but TOG fits my detailed, logical nature so well that I have resigned myself to the fact that it is the only way TOG will work here.

 

Heather

[In the Rain]

He is actually fairly good at making connections, and that is one of the aspects of TOG that I most prize.

 

Are there any other programs that make these kind of connections? Dh and I both like that about TOG, but it looks like so much more than I think we need. I'm not sure how I feel about buying such a big program, for just a few of its attributes.

[Heather in VA]

Lori D.... What version of Our Town did you watch? I'm really wanting my oldest to see it - we are running out of time to read everything LOL - but I don't know which I should choose. We are reading Death of a Salesman and I was thinking about watching that as well. Any suggestions there?

 

Heather

[~blessedmom~]

Are there any other programs that make these kind of connections? Dh and I both like that about TOG, but it looks like so much more than I think we need. I'm not sure how I feel about buying such a big program, for just a few of its attributes.

 

:lurk5:

[momee]

blessedmom - I'm not sure about other programs.

 

TOG is very unique. It really has the kids engage in a subject from all angles. I can't explain it especially since I haven't had any hot liquid this am.

 

Didn't want to leave you hanging on your ?. PM me if you'd like.

[Holly IN]

What a great discussion!! I love the face that we can discuss this without making anybody feel bad for their opinions or experiences. This discussion alone is making me feel so much better in regards to my R level son "not getting it" during our discussions. Now I can RELAX!!!!

 

Thank you!!!

Holly

[Lori D.]

Lori D.... What version of Our Town did you watch? I'm really wanting my oldest to see it - we are running out of time to read everything LOL - but I don't know which I should choose. We are reading Death of a Salesman and I was thinking about watching that as well. Any suggestions there? Heather

 

 

Hi Heather, So sorry if you posted this awhile ago; I just now found your question!

 

We watched the 2002 Paul Newman version of Our Town (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0353849/). While it is not just a filmed live stage version, it is the play, filmed as though it's performed. I really enjoyed Paul Newman's performance! Many years ago, I also saw the Hal Holbrook version (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081290/), and it was good, too. I know the Paul Newman one is available through Netflix.

 

 

I have seen the Dustin Hoffman/John Malkovich version of Death of a Salesman (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089006/). Nothing wrong with the acting, but I just didn't quite "buy" it for 2 reasons:

1. Dustin Hoffman was too young for the role of the retiring salesman father, and John Malkovich was too old to be playing his high school senior son.

2. Part of the point of the salesman is that he is a "nobody" -- I just had a hard time watching an extremely famous person play a "nobody".

I wonder if the 1951 version with Frederick March would have worked better, since it was made close to the time the play was written, and I wouldn't have recognized the actors... :confused:

 

 

We are about to watch Raisin in the Sun this coming week. I originally considered the 1961 version (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055353/) with Sidney Poitiot (close to the time it was written), but then an African American friend said she preferred the 2008 Philicia Rashad version (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808435/) because of the deep, intense emotion conveyed in the actors' faces. So I opted for that version.

 

BEST of luck in your play-watching! Warmest regards, Lori D.