SWB audio lecture questions

[MommyThrice]

I just finished listening to Writing: The High School Years and Lit. Analysis. I have two question...

 

Lit. Analysis didn't even mention high school. Did I miss something? Is there a HS lecture? I was really looking forward to this!

 

SWB has no love of the 5-paragraph, 3-point essay. How do you get away from this? Can someone give me some examples? The only ones I can think of are compare/contrast, problem/solution; things of that nature.

 

Thanks,

Tracie

[MommyThrice]

I've been looking at Kane's New Oxford Guide to Writing at Amazon. It seems to be a good writing book, but it doesn't really go into rhetoric - pathos, ethos and logos. Am I wrong?

 

I've just started reading Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student and it DOES go into HOW to develop an argument.

 

Neither seem to cover progym (not that I want to spend a great deal of time on this.)

 

Any comments from those that have used these?

[Colleen in NS]

I just finished listening to Writing: The High School Years and Lit. Analysis. I have two question...

 

Lit. Analysis didn't even mention high school. Did I miss something? Is there a HS lecture? I was really looking forward to this!

 

I was there, and she did talk about high school in that lit. analysis talk. I see that the audio CD is only 30 minutes long - I guess the high school part got cut out - maybe tech. difficulties. Here is an outline of it. Let me know if you want more info.; I've got plenty of notes on it.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/what-is-literary-analysis-and-when-to-teach-it/

 

SWB has no love of the 5-paragraph, 3-point essay. How do you get away from this? Can someone give me some examples? The only ones I can think of are compare/contrast, problem/solution; things of that nature.

 

Thanks,

Tracie

 

I think the idea is that if the child has practiced outlining and rewriting from someone else's material (which isn't limited to 5 paragraphs with just 3 points - you can have him outline from any number of paragraphs and rewrite from that outline), then he should later be able to come up with outlines (after notetaking from various sources - the extent of notetaking depending on how detailed or summarized the final composition should be) for his own original compositions to be written from, and these could be any length, no matter what the type or style or topic or class requirement for length.

 

I've been looking at Kane's New Oxford Guide to Writing at Amazon. It seems to be a good writing book, but it doesn't really go into rhetoric - pathos, ethos and logos. Am I wrong?

 

I've just started reading Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student and it DOES go into HOW to develop an argument.

 

Neither seem to cover progym (not that I want to spend a great deal of time on this.)

 

Any comments from those that have used these?

 

Corbett's book does have a progym section in it, but it's short. Did the audio lecture have the part about D'Angelo's book that she mentioned? This has extensive progym training in it. Though she did say to use D'Angelo's book but use Corbett's writing samples. I've seen many good posts on all these books here on the boards - maybe you could do a search if no one replies right away - I have them all, but haven't used them yet.

[JennW in SoCal]

Colleen, I didn't realize the outlines of those lectures were available -- very handy!

 

To the OP, in the "writing in the high school years" download, SWB starts talking about topics for persuasive essays on literature at about the 24 minute mark. The idea is to write a response to the book, play or poem and persuade the reader of your essay, using quotes from the text, that your opinion on a particular point is valid and logical. My understanding is that an essay should take as long as needed, that the 5 paragraph, 3 point essay is too formulaic and limiting. That said, I taught my Asperger's teen to use the 5 paragraph essay as he really needed a formula to follow, and it may be a great starting point for other kids, too. I think the point is that it isn't the Holy Grail of essays.

 

For specific questions for analyzing literature, I rely on the questions WTM and WEM and some on-line literature sites like Spark Notes. There are great examples of other things to do in the outline that Colleen linked.

 

My ds has started Kane's Oxford Guide to Writing. I don't really care about the progym or a study of what rhetoric, so whether it is addressed or not doesn't bother me. The book to be fitting the bill for now.

[MommyThrice]

Thank you both. I guess with all the discussions about curriculum and, "But does it teach lit. analysis?" I just thought it should be more complicated than that.

 

We'll see how breaking out of that 5-paragraph paper goes!

[Colleen in NS]

"But does it teach lit. analysis?" I just thought it should be more complicated than that.

 

This is exactly what she was trying to convey at the conference - these things are just not that complicated.

[MomsintheGarden]

I just wanted to mention that I really like the book SWB recommends, Essential Literary Terms by Hamilton. I bought it from her at a conference, and it's just what I was looking for.

 

GardenMom