Jump to content

Menu

Math is turning my hair gray!


Recommended Posts

I need recommendations for my 9th grader who is floundering in Algebra. This is a child who has never done well with any kind of math, but most definitely did not do well with a spiral approach program. Now, for Algebra, we've tried LOF, Videotext, and Jacob's (over the course of two years). She's struggling and I am of no help to her. I think we could use TT and get through it, but we've tried their books in the past and found them rather light, for lack of a better term. I am wondering if I ought to just face our limitations and go with something she can get through, or should I keep looking for a program that is more rigorous? It has to be something she can do on her own as I have apparently forgotten everything I every learned in school.

 

Thanks!

Laurie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ought to add that just today I was saying that she was doing much better on her second pass through VT, but then I decided I'd better review her work (which I had fallen behind on the last couple of weeks) and found her making lots of mistakes and leaving problems unfinished.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laurie,

I've tried close to every math program out there and have settled with BJU with dvds. The Algebra 1 has a great teacher and it went great for us. Algebra 1 with Chalkdust and Video Text didn't go well with our older child, and when I tried Chalkdust briefly with dd, I quickly went back to BJU. The best thing about it is that it teaches everything, reviews, quizzes, prepares for tests. All you have to do is grade quizzes and tests.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please let me know if you find the answer! Ds doesn't understand ANYTHING in Algebra unless I explain it to him first. Just like magic! There's something about a live person explaining and answering questions. I wish there was an easier way, but there doesn't seem to be... at least for my son.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neither of these is a full program, but Hands-On Equations is a wonderful, tactile, visual way to learn about balancing equations using a scale, little pawns for x's, and numbered dice; you then learn "legal moves" to keep the scale balanced while solving for x. Marilyn Burns has a paperback book of lesson plans titled Algebraic Thinking Grades 6-8, which does a really excellent job of helping kids learn on a deep conceptual level the kinds of things going on in algebra. It provides a great foundation for moving on to more abstract ideas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We tried Saxon, Teaching Textbooks, Critical Thinking, and finally settled with videotext very slowly I might add ( I know you said you already tried that) - I think the key is to keep trying until you find a good fit and always buy your curriculum used!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it possible she has some underlying gaps or weaknesses that are hindering her? Many students struggle with Algebra if they are not adept in the fundamentals of fractions, multiplication, division, and decimals. If this might be the case, you could try something like Aleks to assess where your dd stands regarding her skills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has to be something she can do on her own as I have apparently forgotten everything I every learned in school.

 

 

Laurie,

 

You have to understand that I say this *very* sympathetically...but you need to sit down and learn alongside her. Consider this your opportunity to relearn all you learned in school. Both of you will learn so much, and grow so much closer together, as you problem-solve together. Strong, gifted students can learn on their own, for a time (but will also be much stronger with a teacher), but weak students MUST have a teacher. Depending on a curriculum to do the work of the teacher is asking far too much of even a motivated student. If you aren't able (due to time or other demands), then you must find a qualified tutor to meet with her regularly...probably at least twice a week.

 

I have been teaching Algebra for nearly 30 years, yet I still find when I sit beside a student, and work a solution one step at a time with them, understanding how long it takes to reason through the steps, and teaching them what questions to ask in their own mind as they solve, the entire process receives the respect it deserves.

 

I spent a lot of years of hsing recognizing our "ideal" learning model, and the reality of what a student can actually accomplish individually and in a day, week or month. Even now, as a classroom teacher, I have lesson plans that are "ideal" and am faced with the reality of student ability on a spectrum that forces me to adapt and overcome. :)

 

It sounds like you have identified that your student struggles when she works alone, no matter what curriculum you engage. So, why not start where you are, spend 45-90 minutes a day (depending on your tolerance and timing--grin), and just do what you can, day after day? Make it a date. Just do math four days a week. Whatever you have to do to make it more enjoyable...log the hours, and reward 100 hours with a movie date?

 

I hope you find a solution that works for you! Please remember that you can also post specific problems that you both find challenging for extra help here too, so it's doable...even if math isn't your favorite. :) I would definitely choose a curriculum that offers a solution manual, not just the answers.

 

HTH,

 

LoriM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TT is a spiral program... though in my experience, I've found the majority of students do better with spiral as it reinforces the concepts well. With mastery, many learn, then forget, or don't know when to apply certain methods.

 

I've only had 11 years of teaching math, but personally, I think TT does a good job in teaching the basics well and is a good choice for a non-math gifted student. (I also like it for my two gifted math students, but that's a different thread.) That said, as has been reported before, those who have a difficult time understanding math ALWAYS need someone to work with them here and there - sometimes more, sometimes less - even with a DVD program like TT.

 

My youngest is not talented in math and it took a while even for TT to work for him. (We're in Alg 1 this year.) I go over his assignments daily and we work through every problem he's missed. WE do it - not the solution CDs. That way I can see how his mind is working and can address that specifically. He needs more repetition. He needs more confidence building. He needs more specific instruction at times. When he does well - as he does in some chapters, then I back off and let him enjoy the success (though I still go over assignments). When he needs more help, we slow down and process it. This is the chief glory of homeschooling. You can do this. In ps we can't slow down for kids that don't get it, and they fall further and further behind if they can't/don't come get help at other times. It's sad and many give up.

 

I also agree with making sure the basics BEFORE Alg 1 are there. I had to catch my youngest up from ps. It took 2 years...

 

Once kids know the basics well - whether talented in math or not - they can often go on and do so much more. If they try to do too much without knowing the basics, they tend to flounder. My two math talented kids can go to any program and pick up on it easily. They have no problems with the math in chemistry or physics. Even talented kids in our ps curriculum often can't make the transfer as they know just enough to get by (and sometimes not even that).

 

So... all that to sum it up by saying I'd do TT, but also check into either a tutor or perhaps a co-op of some sort if you feel you can't help her when she needs it (and she's likely to need it). As mentioned before - share problems here if you get challenged (though TT does have the solutions CDs).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions. I think you have boiled the situation down to its essence: she needs someone to work with her. My husband does sometimes help her with her algebra in the evenings, but he's in the military so he works irregular hours, is often gone, etc. We did try a tutor once, but she didn't seem to totally respond to that approach. Ideally, I would have her take the class at a community college, but we are moving soon so we haven't been able to take advantage of any semester-long classes.

 

I guess we will slog through until the move and then see about a class or tutor at the new location. Last night, I asked her how she felt about VT, and she said she thought she was understanding it okay- didn't feel completely over her head as she had with Jacob's (which I still think is a really good textbook). Maybe my husband can get her over this rough spot till we can do something else.

 

I am still tossing around the idea of another program. Creekland, I would be interested in hearing why you like TT for gifted students. We used it for a while for pre-algebra and my dd did well with it but it seemed to move so slowly and was covering some things she had learned previously, so we didn't stay with it this year. I had also read the criticisms here about it not getting kids ready for college math which frightened me. But I am willing to be persuaded differently. :) If I were to learn with her, I think TT would have to be the program for me, anyway!

 

Oh, I should add that I think we don't have any major gaps in the foundations. That used to be a problem for her, but we backtracked several years ago and really attacked that issue. We used Aleks last year and she did really well with the material there. I definitely agree that if the foundation isn't strong, you can't go anywhere!

 

Thanks again,

Laurie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to agree with learning along with her. I think most algebra programs would work. But, you are probably going to need to learn alongside her. I've found learning to be much easier the second time around.:tongue_smilie:

 

Of the math programs we have used, I like TT and BJU best. I have found that my dc prefer me to the TT dvd's. The BJU dvd's are excellent and have the added benefit of teaching you to use a graphing calculator (a big plus here!!!). I've found that we can cut back the time required for dvd class by fast forwarding through the homework checking. It is much faster for my dd to check her work the day before using the tm. With both programs, my dc like to be able to come to me for a step by step work through. (I think this is important in higher level maths because, let's face it, there is more than one correct way to work these problems. A solutions manual will only show one possible way to arrive at an answer. It has also helped my children to see my thought processes as I work through steps, especially in geometry.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Creekland, I would be interested in hearing why you like TT for gifted students. We used it for a while for pre-algebra and my dd did well with it but it seemed to move so slowly and was covering some things she had learned previously, so we didn't stay with it this year. I had also read the criticisms here about it not getting kids ready for college math which frightened me. But I am willing to be persuaded differently. :) If I were to learn with her, I think TT would have to be the program for me, anyway!

 

 

 

TT for gifted students is used differently - at least - it was for mine. For one, I think it needs to be sped up a bit. Both my older two did Alg 1 in 7th grade and went on from there. Gifted students often, but not always, don't care for the lectures and can learn straight from the book. My oldest would have been bored to pieces with the lectures if I'd made him watch more than one. My middle son (more academically talented than my oldest) WANTED to listen to almost every lecture. He's intent on knowing all the whys and hows, etc, and processes it better by hearing. He told me he considered the prof for TT to be the "best math teacher he'd ever had." He came from ps before 7th grade, so take that for what it's worth.

 

What TT does is teach the basics VERY well - better than any other program I've personally seen (I haven't seen them all, but I have seen the results of some). Of course, this only happens if one ensures mastery of it and not just plugging along... with gifted kids, mastery comes easily. With slower kids, they need assistance - no matter which program is chosen.

 

So, I know of people that have let their kids go through TT at their own pace - very quickly for some (there's no need to plod through lessons already known or picked up on quickly) and then move on to other, more challenging, things without an issue at all. I also know of people (myself included at this point) that are content with TT knowing their students have the skills to do more if needed. To me, it depends on which major they want to choose and what they like doing. Ok... I do have to modify that a little bit. In Pre-Calc, I add to the matrices section as I don't consider that to go far enough... I want mine to know how to solve using inverses on the calculator... and there may be another section I augment here and there. I'd have to look in the book and test my memory.

 

I'm NOT saying all math talented kids need TT. I don't think all math talented kids need any particular program - most will work. I just don't see where TT is a problem for math talented kids as is often reported - and I like how much mine know the actual math from it. I seldom had to do anything more than grade for my oldest two - and both are scoring high on college entrance exams - top 1 - 5% high. As I said before, they can also transfer from math to science - a big plus I don't always see from other programs. It shows me they truly know what they are doing - not just copying a format. SAT and ACT math are also easy for them - again - showing knowledge of how to use the basics they know. My oldest has gone on to Calculus without any issue at all. My middle son will possibly take Calculus next year - maybe not though as I'd prefer he take it as a senior right before college. I'm still contemplating for him.

 

I'm also not saying TT will take a generic student and give them high scores if they don't process the info. And, some not as talented in math students will always have trouble seeing math in "real life" situations (like science), so one can't expect miracles just as I can't suddenly get up and draw a masterpiece even though I might know the principles behind it. Talent does come to play at some point. These points are also true of any program.

 

The best program for any student is one that they can LEARN from. The worst is one they muddle through without understanding. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neither of these is a full program, but Hands-On Equations is a wonderful, tactile, visual way to learn about balancing equations using a scale, little pawns for x's, and numbered dice; you then learn "legal moves" to keep the scale balanced while solving for x. Marilyn Burns has a paperback book of lesson plans titled Algebraic Thinking Grades 6-8, which does a really excellent job of helping kids learn on a deep conceptual level the kinds of things going on in algebra. It provides a great foundation for moving on to more abstract ideas.

 

 

I was going to suggest this, too. Another option is MUS. What I would do, though, is use one of these along with something you already have that she likes. Also, how are her fractions?

 

It could also be that she's just not ready. There is nothing that says that all dc are ready for Algebra by their freshman year.

 

As for TT, my eldest, who is very mathy, hated it. It was too easy. My middle dd, also mathy but doing TT along with LoF at a younger age than my eldest was, likes the TT Algebra 1 for the humour and because it is easy after the math she's already done. We don't have the lectures. Personally, I don't recommend TT for math-talented people, but it has it's good features. btw, all of my dc do or will do Algebra 1 twice, so my eldest tried it for the second go-around. However, I don't think she would have liked it the first time, either, because she doesn't like the gentle approach to math.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Karin!

 

Her fractions themselves are pretty good, but converting from decimals to fractions isn't great. I was interested in the books Karen Anne recommended, especially the Algebraic Thinking book. I also looked at MUS yesterday because I know it's good for making the abstract concrete, but it seemed like it had a language of its own that we would have to learn before we could fully follow his program.

 

I like what you say about her not being ready. Let's say that's the problem rather than mom being a weak teacher. LOL. But seriously, she does seem to have some kind of block when it comes to algebraic thinking. If we slowed things waaaay down, what would this mean for college? I've looked at a few schools that we might be interested in, and don't seen any clear guidelines for math requirements except that you should have Calc if you want to go into science (she does want to go into Marine Biology).

 

We've done the backtracking thing before with math, but it gets a little scary when you get closer to college age (even though I don't necessarily want my kids to go to college at 18, I'd hate to ruin their chances if that was what they wanted). Does anyone have any experience with doing a major overhaul so late in the game? Would you just do math year-round until the child is caught up?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, we used VideoText with my very non-mathy older son and he did well with it. But we did have to go through it with him much of the time. Some students just need a teacher for some reason, even if you do think that you're just saying the same thing that was said on tape for that lesson. That's how my older son was..... So I think that the things you already have can work for her, but you will have to do the math with her.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions. I think you have boiled the situation down to its essence: she needs someone to work with her. My husband does sometimes help her with her algebra in the evenings, but he's in the military so he works irregular hours, is often gone, etc. We did try a tutor once, but she didn't seem to totally respond to that approach. Ideally, I would have her take the class at a community college, but we are moving soon so we haven't been able to take advantage of any semester-long classes.

 

I guess we will slog through until the move and then see about a class or tutor at the new location. Last night, I asked her how she felt about VT, and she said she thought she was understanding it okay- didn't feel completely over her head as she had with Jacob's (which I still think is a really good textbook). Maybe my husband can get her over this rough spot till we can do something else.

 

I am still tossing around the idea of another program. Creekland, I would be interested in hearing why you like TT for gifted students. We used it for a while for pre-algebra and my dd did well with it but it seemed to move so slowly and was covering some things she had learned previously, so we didn't stay with it this year. I had also read the criticisms here about it not getting kids ready for college math which frightened me. But I am willing to be persuaded differently. :) If I were to learn with her, I think TT would have to be the program for me, anyway!

 

Oh, I should add that I think we don't have any major gaps in the foundations. That used to be a problem for her, but we backtracked several years ago and really attacked that issue. We used Aleks last year and she did really well with the material there. I definitely agree that if the foundation isn't strong, you can't go anywhere!

 

Thanks again,

Laurie

 

I've used VT with 2 kids now, and I'll just throw out that I think it's a good program for the parent to learn along with the child. I watched the videos along with my dc (easy to do and not too time-consuming), and relearned all the algebra I'd forgotten. Plus, having seen the lesson, I could help my dc figure out the concepts I got but they didn't, or help provide direction to go back over what neither of us understood. It wouldn't be too much either, I think, to sit with the child while she does the problems. The solutions manual gives complete solutions. And you have complete solutions for all the quizzes and tests.

 

So I think your plan of sticking with VT for now is a good one. Especially since you already have it and she says she's doing OK.

 

I'll also say VT is fairly streamlined too, so later you can pick up the pace and still get to Calc before college. HTH!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laurie,

 

You have to understand that I say this *very* sympathetically...but you need to sit down and learn alongside her. Consider this your opportunity to relearn all you learned in school. Both of you will learn so much, and grow so much closer together, as you problem-solve together. Strong, gifted students can learn on their own, for a time (but will also be much stronger with a teacher), but weak students MUST have a teacher. Depending on a curriculum to do the work of the teacher is asking far too much of even a motivated student. If you aren't able (due to time or other demands), then you must find a qualified tutor to meet with her regularly...probably at least twice a week.

 

I have been teaching Algebra for nearly 30 years, yet I still find when I sit beside a student, and work a solution one step at a time with them, understanding how long it takes to reason through the steps, and teaching them what questions to ask in their own mind as they solve, the entire process receives the respect it deserves.

 

I spent a lot of years of hsing recognizing our "ideal" learning model, and the reality of what a student can actually accomplish individually and in a day, week or month. Even now, as a classroom teacher, I have lesson plans that are "ideal" and am faced with the reality of student ability on a spectrum that forces me to adapt and overcome. :)

 

It sounds like you have identified that your student struggles when she works alone, no matter what curriculum you engage. So, why not start where you are, spend 45-90 minutes a day (depending on your tolerance and timing--grin), and just do what you can, day after day? Make it a date. Just do math four days a week. Whatever you have to do to make it more enjoyable...log the hours, and reward 100 hours with a movie date?

 

I hope you find a solution that works for you! Please remember that you can also post specific problems that you both find challenging for extra help here too, so it's doable...even if math isn't your favorite. :) I would definitely choose a curriculum that offers a solution manual, not just the answers.

 

HTH,

 

LoriM

 

:iagree: I do the same with my son's TT:Algebra I -- I do the lessons on my own time to keep up pace with his lessons. That way, I understand where he makes silly or careless errors and when we both hit a "wall" and have to put in the DVD for answers. ;) I find myself recalling lost memories of Algebra as a result. Good for the brain!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Karin!

 

We've done the backtracking thing before with math, but it gets a little scary when you get closer to college age (even though I don't necessarily want my kids to go to college at 18, I'd hate to ruin their chances if that was what they wanted). Does anyone have any experience with doing a major overhaul so late in the game? Would you just do math year-round until the child is caught up?

 

 

Yes, I'd just do math year round until she catches up. I'd also find out if she can do marine biology and take calculus in college instead of in high school. There are others who have posted that they have done this, and in most, but not all, of the Canadian provinces this is how it's always done since Calculus isn't offered in high school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your ideas and suggestions. It's great to have such a well informed resource to turn to!

 

I found myself equally torn between sticking with VT and switching to TT, so I had my daughter sit down and really go through the samples on the TT website and tell me what she thought. She said she liked it pretty well, but when she saw that all the solutions were on the discs, that sold her. She was very excited about that (which also points up the possible problem she's had with VT- that she had the solutions, but that they weren't being explained to her). I am going to try to follow along with her so that I can help her, so perhaps this time we will have better results. I know I personally found the TT solutions a big help.

 

We're going out of town for a week, but I didn't want to go without saying thanks again, everyone!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...