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Experiences w AP Eng. Language vs AP Eng Literature & SAT Eng lit?


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For ds to get into a special program in 12th grade here, he has to have done an English AP in 11th grade, but it doesn't matter which one. I'm presuming the Eng Literature AP is harder than the Language AP, but think the Literature might be more interesting and then he could just skip the Language.

 

If he does the AP Eng lit, theoretically he could do the SAT II Eng Lit - or are they very different?

 

Of your students who have taken that AP Language - what did they think of the preparation? and the test? Is it a worthwhile use of time? is it to cement English grammar into the brain?

 

Any experience with the PA Homeschoolers courses?

 

Besides PA Homeschoolers, are there other online courses that prepare specifically for either of these two exams?

 

I've read about having the thorough knowledge of 5 books to be able to used as fodder for the composition and read through MomsintheGarden thread but feel nervous about doing the prep all on my own...

 

It seems that one advantage of doing the lit part independently is that you can choose the 5 books to use. But that could be a disadvantage if the student is then used to just using books that he likes.

 

My ds did an advanced composition class with Laurel Tree (Rebekah) and got a good grade, but he is on the slow side of composition....so are there other online composition courses that would help bring him up to speed that anyone could recommend?

 

Any other insights or experiences would be helpful....

 

Thanks!

Joan

Edited by Joan in Geneva
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I've looked into AP Language since I want to teach a similar course next fall. AP Language focuses on non fiction including essays, biographies, memoirs and speeches. These can really be more interesting and less dry than you think.

 

It teaches the students to analyze nonfiction to see how the author uses rhetorical devices to prove his opinion or his point. It looks at voice, tone and structure to see how they influence the reader also.

 

I have a copy of a released exam. Collegeboard sells these to any registered customer. It is very difficult, but with a good class it is perhaps doable. The multiple choice focuses on the structure of writing; for example, "What purpose does the underlined sentence serve?" The purpose is not easily determined in most cases by me. :confused: The multiple choice section also focuses on rhetorical analysis.

 

There are 3 essay questions that usually take the following format: 1) Respond to a quote 2)Write a synthesis essay based on the following 5 excerpts~these excerpts are essays, graphs, pictures and newspaper articles 3) I think this one is to form an opinion based on 2 seperate essays.

 

Literature might be easier in my opinion, although I haven't studied it as in depth. AP Lang will give you credit for college English Composition and AP Lit will give you credit for college English Lit. At least that is my understanding. The SAT 2 test just proves the student understands the information at a high school level and no college credit is given.

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I'm so glad I asked and get the benefit of your research! Thank you Michelle. It does sound like Lit would be easier in 11th.

 

And the Language AP does sound more interesting than I imagined.

 

I had been thinking of the SAT II only in case ds ends up wanting to apply to a school that requires SAT's since he would then have been geared up for literature.

 

So I guess my question should have been, if he has prepared for the AP Literature would he be able to ace the SAT II literature?

 

Now for courses....

 

Thanks!

Joan

Edited by Joan in Geneva
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Of your students who have taken that AP Language - what did they think of the preparation?

Dd thought the test prep for AP Language was rather nerve-wracking. It is HARD to write three essays in two hours. She did at least 1 MC section and 1 essay per week, and ramped up to a whole, timed test for each of the two weeks before the exam. We downloaded the FRQs from the past exams from the College Board and she did them.

 

and the test?

The test was very similar to the practice exams and dd felt prepared but not terribly confident. All the 60+ students let out a big sigh of relief when the essays were done. She was thankful that the high school guidance staff did an excellent job with the students, starting on time and keeping things quiet.

 

Is it a worthwhile use of time?

We felt that it was - ymmv. The critical reading expected in this exam is challenging. I took several sections of MCs myself to be able to understand how to do them (and to be able to empathize). They are tricky, and you must train your brain to be able to do close reading. Being able to read critically is very important for the SAT and other tests, in college work, and in daily life.

 

We also felt that learning the literary/rhetoric devices and their names was useful.

is it to cement English grammar into the brain?

AP Lang is not a grammar test, but you are expected to already know basic grammar. It a critical reading, writing, and "devices" test.

 

I've read about having the thorough knowledge of 5 books to be able to used as fodder for the composition and read through MomsintheGarden thread but feel nervous about doing the prep all on my own...

 

It seems that one advantage of doing the lit part independently is that you can choose the 5 books to use. But that could be a disadvantage if the student is then used to just using books that he likes.

For AP Lit this year we discussed books at length, weighing their pros and cons. I joined the AP teacher's group through the CB website and posted about one book - Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis. She ended up using it, but also will use others she likes less. She understands completely that she must use the best fit for the open question, and will.

My ds did an advanced composition class with Laurel Tree (Rebekah) and got a good grade, but he is on the slow side of composition....so are there other online composition courses that would help bring him up to speed that anyone could recommend?

My dd was also slow. The best thing for this is just to practice. I would read the prompts and her essays, and we would talk about what to do next time. Her biggest problem was to stay on topic. She tends to moralize and wander off on some tangent. We had to pound away on that a lot. Now she gets that for this test, you must give them what they want. She can write about whatever she likes in her journal, emails to friends, etc.

 

 

Any other insights or experiences would be helpful....

Keep in mind that the list of literary/rhetorical devices for AP Lang is a subset of those used for AP Lit. Dd's study for the Lit exam has been much easier, because she learned a lot from her AP Lang study last year.

 

Thanks!

Joan

 

You're welcome! I think these tests are a good fit for homeschoolers doing classical ed. The great books are good prep for critical reading, and the study for them helps to cement knowledge of literary devices and analysis.

 

We highly recommend the Cliff's books for both exams. Barron's is good, too.

 

GardenMom

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Joan, that's one question I have too and don't know the answer to, if a student takes an AP test and passes does the college still need an SAT result?

 

It seems like an AP test would override an SAT test, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone else here knows. If not the best thing to do is to call prospective schools that require SAT 2 tests and see if APs can be substituted. I still need to do that.

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Joan, that's one question I have too and don't know the answer to, if a student takes an AP test and passes does the college still need an SAT result?

 

It seems like an AP test would override an SAT test, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone else here knows. If not the best thing to do is to call prospective schools that require SAT 2 tests and see if APs can be substituted. I still need to do that.

 

I had one college (University of Delaware) tell me that they would accept an AP score of 4 or 5 in place of an SATII score.

 

I had another college (CMU) tell me that they required SATII scores. Period. It didn't matter how many AP scores in science and math the kid had, they wanted SATII scores.

 

Ask the college.

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Garden Mom, thank you for sharing all that experience. It puts some "flesh" on the test bones...You must have breathed a sigh of relief when it was over too, considering all the prep you had done...

 

My dd was also slow. The best thing for this is just to practice. I would read the prompts and her essays, and we would talk about what to do next time. Her biggest problem was to stay on topic. She tends to moralize and wander off on some tangent. We had to pound away on that a lot. Now she gets that for this test, you must give them what they want.

 

I presume there are prompts in the prep books, but it sounds like you did so many essays...Did you get all the prompts just from the prep books?

 

Also, since you said that the AP Lang uses a subset of the literary devices from AP Lit, do you think that is why it is taught in 11th? and I saw that you used that order - would you do it again that way?

 

Michelle - I had heard what Carole says for some other schools as well which was why I wanted ds to do them both since we don't know which schools to even ask yet...

 

Both of you seem courageous and determined to be preparing this on your own.

 

Thanks!

Joan

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Garden Mom, thank you for sharing all that experience. It puts some "flesh" on the test bones...You must have breathed a sigh of relief when it was over too, considering all the prep you had done...

 

You're welcome! I would love for other homeschooling students to study for and do well on these exams. Yes, we were so relieved! Dd actually got a case of hives the week she had her three APs - either from stress or perhaps from something in the testing environment.

 

I presume there are prompts in the prep books, but it sounds like you did so many essays...Did you get all the prompts just from the prep books?

 

Essay prompts came from the prep books and the College Board website. The Multiple Choice questions (MCs) are only released every few years on exams which must be purchased, but the Free-Response Questions (FRQs) are released every year. AP schoolteachers are great collectors of this material - often having file cabinets full of prep guides and released exams.

 

There are two versions of the exam given every year, so you can get six essay prompts/year/exam. The CB has three *actual* student responses to each question, with comments and scoring. I found this extremely helpful when scoring dd's exams. Add that to the six practice tests x three prompts each in the Cliff's book, and you can get lots of essay questions easily and rather cheaply (prep books cost $20 - sorry it's more for you overseas!).

 

In addition, you can the CB a course description for APs. English Language and English Literature are combined in one course description that contains sample MCs and a FRQ for each test. You'll want to get this from their website, and have your student read it and use the questions for practice.

 

For the Literature, we are reusing the open prompt - the one where the student must talk about a book, for several books. This helps get perspective on applying an analysis question to different material.

 

For Language, note that the CB added the synthesis question just a couple of years ago, so older FRQs won't have it.

 

Also, since you said that the AP Lang uses a subset of the literary devices from AP Lit, do you think that is why it is taught in 11th?

 

Probably, but that is just a guess!

 

and I saw that you used that order - would you do it again that way?

 

Yes! I hope to do Language in 11th and Lit in 12th for the rest of my dc, if possible.

 

Both of you seem courageous and determined to be preparing this on your own.

 

Thanks! For us, it was just doing the next thing. Good for you that you are planning ahead./QUOTE]

 

YOU CAN DO THIS!

 

GardenMom

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you might want to consider the spring offerings at BraveWriter.com. Julie Bogart herself is teaching the Expository Essay and the SAT/ACT essay classes, and signups are in progress for those and others right now. Either one would be an excellent boot camp-style introduction to the form. EE is for 13-18 year olds. My 13 YO DD, a strong composer, is taking it right now, and I would say that it's difficult for her--more abstract and formal than she is used to. It will be great for her in the end, but it's a tough slog right now. And SAT/ACT is for 10th-12th graders and very tuned to taking the material in your head and using it for an essay without a specifically allowed set of material to refer to. Julie is an outstanding teacher of writing, and the author of "The Writer's Jungle", one of the best and most comprehensive books about writing, written to teachers, that I have ever seen. To have her rather than one of her employees teaching this classes is rare and extremely special.

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Our dd did AP Lang with PA Homeschoolers last year and really enjoyed it. She is a pretty good writer, but tends toward the creative side, so it was really good experience to do more non-fiction/critical thinking response type essays. Also getting used to writing so much so fast in an organized fashion was a challenge. The course also offered some interaction and discussion between students and teacher, plus blogging, which she enjoyed. She did do well on the test, too. :001_smile: She also did very well on the critical reading part of the SAT, so maybe there was some carryover. I would never have tried to do this on my own, but I'm more a math/science person - I spent my time dragging her through chemistry and algebra 2!!

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Carol - thanks for the Bravewriter suggestion - what I like is that the classes only last 4-6 weeks. I had never looked at them before...We might try to fit one in at the end of April. I just have to see about the overlap with AP Geo prep for ds at the end of April...

 

CO Mom - thanks for the PA homeschoolers feedback...I used to think they are expensive but compared to Bravewriter, they are not so expensive... I have to think carefully for next year...

 

I am now leaning to the Language first after all...and am thinking that I am just not able to motivate ds enough in writing. So we may start working on prompts now to see how that goes (thanks again Garden Mom) to see whether it will work or whether we need outside grading...

 

Thanks both of you,

Joan

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Just a couple of comments to add to the already excellent replies above:

 

My dd took the PA Homeschooler AP English Language class last year. In addition to the excellent test prep, it provided much more: lots and lots of writing practice. Most days she had to read something, contribute to the class discussion, work on some longer-term writing project, and/or do some kind of test prep. My dd would not have done this much work on her own at home.

 

Class discussions via the online boards were quite involved: they had to respond to a specified number of prompts each week based on readings and then had to respond to others' responses. Simply writing "I agree" was not allowed. The teacher often got involved in the discussions, kept them on-topic or pointed out what they could do better.

 

They wrote and revised several major papers, and they did a full-blown research paper on a topic of their choice. I think having a class helped a lot; the peer review process was valuable both for the reviewer and the writer.

 

It was a ton of work though; I'd make sure that the rest of your student's schedule was balanced if you choose PA Homeschoolers AP English. It was a very worthwhile use of my dd's time, though! The college application essays were less painful having had all that writing in the previous year!

 

One other note re the SAT II Lit exam. My dd found that AP Language actually prepared her well. The SAT II is mostly about close reading,and between her Well-Trained Mind literature background and the timed multiple choice practices in the AP Language class, she did quite well. I think she only put in a couple of hours with a SAT II prep book beforehand.

 

~Kathy

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Class discussions via the online boards were quite involved: they had to respond to a specified number of prompts each week based on readings and then had to respond to others' responses. Simply writing "I agree" was not allowed. The teacher often got involved in the discussions, kept them on-topic or pointed out what they could do better.

 

Kathy, thank you for all the details. This is interesting about the participation as ds is taking a class with them this year but there is hardly any online discussion and parental prodding doesn't seem to work. But I think that the subject might not lend itself? Anyway, which teacher did you use (I saw there are three)?

 

Thanks,

Joan

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Joan,

 

Yes, the level of interaction in the PA Homeschoolers classes does vary wildly by subject. My son took AP computer science with them several years ago, and there was very little interaction then (it might have changed since, though). AP Stats was somewhere in the middle of the interaction scale.

 

My dd took the AP English class with Bethany Williamson. She was an excellent teacher, but unfortunately left them to go back to graduate school last year.

 

~Kathy

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Mrs. Bell. Yes, we were very happy. I'm not sure if there was quite as much interaction on the online boards as the other poster mentioned with the other teacher. I found it helpful to read the comments from previous students that they have on their course description page - it gives you some of the flavor of the class. We have been pleased with all 3 classes we have used through them - all the teachers seem very invested in the students and have done an excellent job.

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