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College classrooms banning laptops


Jane in NC
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This article in the Washington Post is interesting.

 

The only good argument that I have heard for laptops is that of dysgraphia.

 

Regarding multitasking, a professor had some interesting anecdotal evidence:

 

One recent semester, Siebert tracked the grades of 17 student laptop addicts. At the end of the term, their average grade was 71 percent, "almost the same as the average for the students who didn't come at all."

 

I know my own limits on multitasking. I can knit and watch television. I can iron and talk on the phone. Essentially, I can "balance" two non-related activities. But I cannot listen to a recorded novel and search the Internet. I cannot listen to music with words and read simultaneously. And I certainly could not listen to a lecture and write emails at the same time although admittedly I have never tried.

 

I think having a switch to block Internet access in classrooms is smart idea.

 

What do you think?

 

Jane

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I would agree to an extent. I am currently in college and some of my textbooks are in Logos and I need my laptop to access them. I do get tired of people surfing the net and checking their facebook in class. a lot of time there are actually conversations going on around the classroom on the laptops. I think it is rude and disrespectful. Some students are actually taking notes on their laptops. I would take out internet capabilities.

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I thought that the use of the laptop would be for taking notes.

 

I certainly agree that a student shouldn't be surfing the internet while in class.

 

However, most students are used to using their computer for taking notes. I know my ds would be much faster taking notes with the laptop than writing even though there is no dysgraphia.

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Sorry, I hit submit before I was done.

 

I agree with you Jane. I think blocking internet would be a great idea.

 

Thanks for this thread and the link to the article.

 

This has been on my mind.

 

My ds is 2 years away from college. I was assuming that colleges allowed laptops for notetaking.

 

I didn't even think about the possibility of some students doing other things not just taking notes.

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My dd's response, "If people want to be stupid and fail the class let them. Don't punish the rest of us by disallowing laptops."

 

HMMMM.....budding libertarian?

 

Thanks for the article. We enjoyed watching the laptop destruction.

 

The use of laptops is already hurting the rest of the class. Each person who is not engaged in what is happening in the room is taking away from the quality of the educational experience. Also, I believe we are breeding a generation of addicts, so I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect that the surfers are going to be able to disengage.

 

On the other hand, a big "selling point" on campuses is to have wireless in all the classrooms. Our college just spent oodles of money going wireless because it is seen as "necessary" although salaries on campus are far below the going rates in the open market and we haven't had COLA for a couple years. So I don't think that turning off the internet access in classrooms is going to happen.

 

As an aside... in graduate school I stopped taking notes altogether and my grades soared to a perfect 4.o. I was an adequate student up until that point, but I found that listening was the most important thing. Any notetaking distracted me. Most of what was covered in class was available in teacher notes.

 

I hope this makes sense. I have to dash out the door so I'm rushing.

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My dd's response, "If people want to be stupid and fail the class let them. Don't punish the rest of us by disallowing laptops."

 

:iagree:There will always be those who are invested in their learning, and those that aren't. If you don't want to be paying attention, taking away a laptop isn't going to force to you pay attention. However, I do agree that it can be distracting to those behind you (the cone effect mentioned in the article). IIRC, in college you do usually have a choice as to where to sit. These are adults we are talking about here (usually 18 or older).

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I'm all for banning laptops in the classroom. Not just because they don't learn better, but since there have been studies linking illnesses to too much iPod, cellphone, computer & TV time (all of them combined) I think it's healthier.

 

I like computers and laptops, but it's way overdone. It's kind of like smoking; why should I have to put up with second hand smoke everywhere if it's bad for my health? Same with whatever it is that wafts out of cellphones, iPods & computers during my class time.

 

You'd think by this post I'm into lots of laws and banning everything, but I'm actually not. I'm just health conscious. Plus, I'm a big fan of printed books on real paper.

Edited by Karin
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LOL! A couple of weeks ago my very excited ds called me to inform me that a professor of his had just destroyed a student's laptop via liquid nitrogen!

 

Turns out that the "student" was a plant by the professor and the laptop was already not worth keeping. Professor had asked and asked the students not to bring laptops, but they were apparently ignoring him. So he picked up a laptop from a student in the first row, went to the back and brought out a large vat of liquid nitrogen, submerged the laptop, then shattered it on the floor. DS said the class was very quiet - they found out later that it was a planned event.

 

I wonder how many professors have done this demo recently :-)

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On the one hand, my son writes slowly. His processing is slow and I doubt he'll be able to keep up with handwritten notes. He may not be able to keep up with typing notes either. Filming the class would be his best bet, but that's for another conversation.

 

Also, for those students who aren't going to pay attention, I would rather they type messages to each other than whisper. I hated that in college and my son will loose his mind if people are chatting. It's very distracting.

 

That being said, for many students, laptops in the class are simply a toy. It's one more thing for them to fiddle with and distract themselves. It may distract other students in ways I can't think of right now. It's probably a big distraction for the professor and certainly rude.

 

I have heard that there are companies who sell well-written notes for classes over the internet. They buy the notes from those students who are good note-takers, then sell them to other students taking the same class. It's legal and costs about $10 per class, if I remember correctly.

 

Just my opinion.

Denise

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What about taping the lecture? Not video tape. I mean an audio recording with a digital recorder. I guess that is what you would use now.

 

Back in 1980, when I went to college you could bring in a mini-taperecorder and tape the lecture. You could then listen to the lecture on your own time and take notes.

 

Is this allowed?

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What about taping the lecture? Not video tape. I mean an audio recording with a digital recorder. I guess that is what you would use now.

 

Back in 1980, when I went to college you could bring in a mini-taperecorder and tape the lecture. You could then listen to the lecture on your own time and take notes.

 

Is this allowed?

 

In many cases, it's not just allowed, but encouraged. And the technology is so cool! My son has some device that I think is called a Zoom. He uses it to record his voice lessons -- the quality is really outstanding.

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IIRC, in college you do usually have a choice as to where to sit. These are adults we are talking about here (usually 18 or older).

 

I was thinking about hypotheticals. Let's say you have a student who has ten minutes to dash across campus to make his next class. Suppose that class is not in what I would call a "traditional" flat floored classroom but an auditorium. Suppose all the front seats are taken. Sitting in the back would place that student in a sea of distraction.

 

Then I went read through some of the comments on the Post's webpage. Copying one here...

 

I'm an adult (36 yrs old) taking undergrad classes at Rutgers. In my experience, if you sit in the back of a classroom, you'll be able to watch laptop students spend an entire lecture updating Facebook, remixing their iPod, playing networked video games against each other, surfing porn, and so on. It would be great to simply ban laptops, but I don't think its a viable solution for the reasons listed in this article. Instead, you'll find the serious (nondistracted) students will sit in the first three rows of the class and the laptop-obsessed will sit in the back. This is a fine system... unless you are running late. Then you are stuck in the back and good luck keeping your attention focused on the professor.

 

While I agree that people who chose to fail should fail, I sometimes wonder if some students are disadvantaged by the potential distraction.

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There are cool pens that combine note-taking with recording a lecture, so you notes can say things like "about photosynthesis" and "coming exam". Then when you put the pen on that note, it plays the recording starting at the part about photosynthesis or the part about when the exam is going to be. Livescribe, I think they are called? I posted about them awhile back on this board.

-Nan

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notetaking. Nan, I will find your thread and read-up on Livescribe.

 

I always tell my kids to sit in the front row of classes. I didn't think about being late to a class and being forced to sit in the back. Maybe if the student sets up his or her schedule with breaks between classes? But then, I remember that that wasn't always possible.

 

By the way, I did sit in the back and not pay attention my first semester of college. I was young and dumb and it's something I will always regret. My dc are the benefactors of my bad decision because they hear how this one semester caused lasting negative consequences.

 

There sure is a lot more to preparing our kids for college than just academics.

 

Denise

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My dd's response, "If people want to be stupid and fail the class let them. Don't punish the rest of us by disallowing laptops."

 

HMMMM.....budding libertarian?

 

Thanks for the article. We enjoyed watching the laptop destruction.

I have to agree with this person b/c what is the difference if they are on their laptop or iphone, blackberry..whatever? If they aren't going to pay attention they will find a way to do something else. Let them fail.

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I was thinking about hypotheticals. Let's say you have a student who has ten minutes to dash across campus to make his next class. Suppose that class is not in what I would call a "traditional" flat floored classroom but an auditorium. Suppose all the front seats are taken. Sitting in the back would place that student in a sea of distraction.

 

Then I went read through some of the comments on the Post's webpage. Copying one here...

 

I'm an adult (36 yrs old) taking undergrad classes at Rutgers. In my experience, if you sit in the back of a classroom, you'll be able to watch laptop students spend an entire lecture updating Facebook, remixing their iPod, playing networked video games against each other, surfing porn, and so on. It would be great to simply ban laptops, but I don't think its a viable solution for the reasons listed in this article. Instead, you'll find the serious (nondistracted) students will sit in the first three rows of the class and the laptop-obsessed will sit in the back. This is a fine system... unless you are running late. Then you are stuck in the back and good luck keeping your attention focused on the professor.

 

While I agree that people who chose to fail should fail, I sometimes wonder if some students are disadvantaged by the potential distraction.

 

 

Not all good students sit in the front. I always sat near the back. True, I went for B's when I could have had A's, but that had nothing to do with where I sat and everything to do with my inability to handle stress at that age. I focused on the lectures. I still go for the ban ;). Sure some are going to fail anyway, but the laptops are aggravating the situation. Granted, they probably waste lots of time outside the class, but it's amazing what you can learn when you're not playing with your laptop.

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Cynthia -- too funny that it was your ds' class!

 

I just asked my ds1 and he reported that most of the kids in his classes take paper notes. He takes paper notes. His entire campus has wifi and so can't imagine the university would turn off internet b/c of this problem.

 

Lisa

Edited by FloridaLisa
multitasking errors. :o)
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A friend of mine, a former homeschooling mom, btw, is now an adjunct prof at a local LAC. She says she doesn't allow laptops because of the distraction for other students due to all the surfing during lectures. Now the problem is everyone surfing on their iPods even though she has a "no cellphones in class" policy on her syllabus. She says it is almost impossible to enforce an electronics free environment!

 

I was feeling like an old stodgy aunt last year when I was horrified to realize my niece was texting me during a class. I watched a teen cellist one time keep her cellphone on her lap all during rehearsal and texting during rests. I tell you, kids these days!

 

But, this is interesting -- it never would have occurred to me that a laptop wouldn't be allowed during a lecture! I think I'll have my 10th grader start practicing note taking the old fashioned way.

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My university has Wi-Fi access everywhere, and I've had a few profs ban laptops during classes, or make you sit in the front if you have one. I think completely banning them is pointless. I take better notes on a laptop because I can type a lot faster than I can write, and I can actually read what I have typed afterwords. Most of the profs here put all the powerpoints up on their websites, and it is easier to flip through them on your computer as they go through them on the screen instead of printing them out and trying to follow along during class. If you print them, there isn't much room to take notes on the actual slides. Adding notes to the slides on the computer is much more efficient and isn't a waste of paper.

 

I understand why students would rather be surfing the net than listening to the professor. Most of the ones that I have had read straight from the slides that they have provided online, and don't add anything more to the lecture (or if they do add anything, they don't test us on it). Most of these classes have between 20-35 people in them, so they aren't huge lecture halls. The only reason to go to these lectures is to sign the attendance sheet to get points. I have one prof this semester that posts the testbook's testbank online (minus the answers). All you have to do to get an A in that class is print it out, find the answers in the book (it goes in order), memorize it and regurgitate it for the test (and this is an upper-level class). I wouldn't bother going to his class if he didn't have a penalty for missing more than 'x' number of classes. Most people zone out during all of their classes because they can just read everything online right before the test and get a decent grade without too much effort. If they have a laptop with them, at least they can get something useful done.

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I understand why students would rather be surfing the net than listening to the professor. Most of the ones that I have had read straight from the slides that they have provided online, and don't add anything more to the lecture (or if they do add anything, they don't test us on it).

 

In your signature, Jennifer Marie, you mention that you want to learn more about classical education. Wonderful! Then may I suggest that you approach your education not as regurgitating for the test but as the pursuit of knowledge. Some of what may not be on the test may be the knowledge that is ultimately of importance to you, knowledge that will help you connect the dots. A classical education cannot, in my opinion, be achieved by regurgitation.

 

Perhaps you would be wise to shop around more for the hard profs, those who will challenge and push you to places that you had not thought about previously.

 

What is your major?

 

Jane (warning--respond to this post and I'll be encouraging you to study more math! ;) )

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Well if they were to just sit there quietly messing with the Internet, I'd say let them fail.

 

But I'd bet donuts they don't.

 

The rudest and most inattentive students tend to also be the ones that ask the prof to repeat everything, toss out comments that have nothing to do with the topic (but maybe with the topic 15 minutes ago) and basicly generally waste time and bog the class down.

 

I've only seen a hand full of prof who had the guts to say, "Sorry. Next time pay attention." and refuse to let that happen.

 

So in my experience (limited as it is) they aren't just checking out virtually - they are a disruption to the class.

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This article in the Washington Post is interesting.

 

I think having a switch to block Internet access in classrooms is smart idea.

 

What do you think?

 

Jane

 

Ds tells me he sees lots of "multi-tasking" in his classes, but a fair number of students who do that tend to disappear at some point during the semester. Last semester his art history instructor encouraged the use of laptops. She e-mailed a power-point series prior to each class and ds used his note-taking software to add lecture notes to each slide. Because the lights were turned off for most of the class time it was difficult to take traditional notes, but some did use lighted pens. Of course there were a few who were using the laptops for more than note-taking.

 

This semester he's not taking his laptop to campus at all, which is a relief. He did not want to risk having it stolen from his vehicle, so he carried everywhere in a backpack for 8-10 hours two days a week. This semester he uses his I-pod to stay connected, but only between classes. His classes meet at a fairly small CC campus, and he learned early on that so long as the multi-taskers don't distract other folks the instructors don't say anything. However, since he has no large classes that meet in lecture halls instructors are usually aware of who's participating in the class and who's not. All of his classes so far have class participation listed as a certain percentage of the grade. Ds doesn't want to earn a reputation for being a "slacker" so he's careful about using his phone and I-Pod only between classes.

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Mine say they don't take notes at all because the profs put their notes online and it is easy to go find them. Part of me is unhappy about this and part of me thinks it is must be nice to just listen and not frantically scribble.

 

 

I think it would be nice, but would still want to scribble because taking notes helps me listen to the lecture better. However, knowing I could get the notes would help me relax if I don't have something down fast enough (and I was very fast. Messy and made my own abbreviations, but fast. Too bad I hadn't learned shorthand.)

 

Taking notes yourself is a worthy skill and I fully believe that for many or most students it helps them learn to listen better. I won't say all, because one of the biggest lessons I've learned in homeschooling is that the term all rarely applies. You have to learn what to write, how to abbreviate terms, how to set up notes so that they work for you.

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In your signature, Jennifer Marie, you mention that you want to learn more about classical education. Wonderful! Then may I suggest that you approach your education not as regurgitating for the test but as the pursuit of knowledge. Some of what may not be on the test may be the knowledge that is ultimately of importance to you, knowledge that will help you connect the dots. A classical education cannot, in my opinion, be achieved by regurgitation.

 

Perhaps you would be wise to shop around more for the hard profs, those who will challenge and push you to places that you had not thought about previously.

 

What is your major?

 

Jane (warning--respond to this post and I'll be encouraging you to study more math! ;) )

 

I'm majoring in Marketing. According to other students, all of the profs are about the same as far as difficulty. I haven't really noticed a change of difficulty between 100 level and 400 level classes (I go to a pretty decent state school). It is necessary to look at the tests here as mainly regurgitation, they are written by the text book company, and test inconsequential details (such as what % of Americans are brand leaders or whatever). Most of these details will be out of date in a few short years, and really won't be useful in any job. It is too late for me to change my major (I only have a year left in school), and most of the classes that look interesting in other majors either require you to be in that major to take, or have too many prerequisites. As far as math goes...I never have to take it again, and am quite happy with that. I already had to take a basic college math course, 2 semesters of accounting, 1 of finance, and 3 of econ/stats. I try to spend my free time reading books from the library in stuff I'm really interested in.

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I understand why students would rather be surfing the net than listening to the professor. Most of the ones that I have had read straight from the slides that they have provided online, and don't add anything more to the lecture (or if they do add anything, they don't test us on it). Most of these classes have between 20-35 people in them, so they aren't huge lecture halls. The only reason to go to these lectures is to sign the attendance sheet to get points. I have one prof this semester that posts the testbook's testbank online (minus the answers). All you have to do to get an A in that class is print it out, find the answers in the book (it goes in order), memorize it and regurgitate it for the test (and this is an upper-level class). I wouldn't bother going to his class if he didn't have a penalty for missing more than 'x' number of classes. Most people zone out during all of their classes because they can just read everything online right before the test and get a decent grade without too much effort. If they have a laptop with them, at least they can get something useful done.

 

I would absolutely detest a class like that. The classes I enjoyed the most were those where the prof expected you to read outside of class and talked about different things during class. Tests were on both as we were expected to know both. The book had historical or basic knowledge we had to know and the prof taught more current things or things not included in the book.

 

If this type of prof is the norm in your college, I'd certainly (personally) prefer to go elsewhere.

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As far as math goes...I never have to take it again, and am quite happy with that. I already had to take a basic college math course, 2 semesters of accounting, 1 of finance, and 3 of econ/stats. I try to spend my free time reading books from the library in stuff I'm really interested in.

 

Never say never! The things you'll want to learn when you are older will amaze you in retrospect!

 

Hmmm... Very curious though. A business major without Calculus? Every school at which I have taught has required business majors to have at least one semester of Calculus. Are you sure that you do not want to take this course in case you consider graduate school?

 

I told you that I was going to start the sales pitch for more math!

 

Jane

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Never say never! The things you'll want to learn when you are older will amaze you in retrospect!

 

Hmmm... Very curious though. A business major without Calculus? Every school at which I have taught has required business majors to have at least one semester of Calculus. Are you sure that you do not want to take this course in case you consider graduate school?

 

I told you that I was going to start the sales pitch for more math!

 

Jane

:iagree: I can't tell you how much I wish I hadn't let the appalling school system I was in talk me out of my love for math and that I never took Calculus, and I was an arts major. I just spoke with someone recently who had to take Calculus as part of a Business major.

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This reminds me of a photo a friend emailed me....it was taken in our state capitol building during session. Our congressmen/women were reading Facebook, playing solitaire, etc. on their laptops.

 

I accidentally came across this last night while looking at syllabi of some college classes I took (wanted to know which text they were using now)...and many of the accounting courses included this:

"Personal Electronic Equipment Policy

Due to abuse by those who came before you, I regret to announce you may not use a LAPTOP, CELL PHONE, PDA, DVD player or MP3 (iPod) during class time. All such equipment should be turned off and put away. You are encouraged to bring a calculator to class and have it ready to use."

 

I don't mind laptops in class if people are being responsible. But once they misuse the privilege, I'm all for the ban. :)

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I had to take notes, or at least have a notebook in front of me, to focus in class. Though admittedly, when things were slow I often also had a story going in my notebook, and doodles.

 

If I didn't seem to need a pen in hand to get things into my brain (and prefer mapping to outlining when notetaking), I'd have preferred a laptop; I have problems with my wrists and too much pen in hand gets painful.

 

I actually disliked it when most professors handed out notes; I would usually wind up recopying them, usually into my preferred map-style notes, sometimes I'd get ambitious and cut and paste the pictures from the printed notes in, too (I remember doing that in physical anthropology, for example). Probably the only exception to that was an Ecology professor who was Chinese, and knew his accent could be difficult to understand--he had good reason to put all the details in his notes. For most, it left nothing to do but sit and stare passively, which unless you are totally a visual or audio-visual learner, is not very helpful.

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I have to at least doodle to keep my mind paying attention. And I think I probably need to take the notes to remember anything. Looking at somebody else's notes isn't at all the same thing.

 

 

Ditto, if not taking notes I need to fidget or doodle to stay engaged, unless it's remarkably and unusually engaging. My dd's doodle, too, when listening to something lecture style.

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In many cases, it's not just allowed, but encouraged. And the technology is so cool! My son has some device that I think is called a Zoom. He uses it to record his voice lessons -- the quality is really outstanding.

 

On the other hand, there are some notorious profs who don't allow taping. However, these tend to be liberal arts profs in less serious specialties. (IMHO)

 

I guess that the thinking is that they don't want someone taping them and complaining about the rants they go on.

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On the other hand, there are some notorious profs who don't allow taping. However, these tend to be liberal arts profs in less serious specialties. (IMHO)

 

I guess that the thinking is that they don't want someone taping them and complaining about the rants they go on.

 

I have never heard of this, but I can imagine it. I think if you were going to record a lecture, you would definitely want to talk to the professor first, as a courtesy. If you explained your reasons, I don't see why s/he would disagree. Most of the professors at the liberal arts college where I work are actually quite reasonable if you approach them with respect. You know, like most of the rest of us.... ;)

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I had a couples prof that didn't allow taping bc kids would purposely buddy up. Two or more would decide to have one tape it so others could skip and just listen to it later. There was decent money in selling copies to students who didn't want to get up for a 8am class. The prof would permit it only if the student had a drs note of LD issue.

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I had a couples prof that didn't allow taping bc kids would purposely buddy up. Two or more would decide to have one tape it so others could skip and just listen to it later. There was decent money in selling copies to students who didn't want to get up for a 8am class. The prof would permit it only if the student had a drs note of LD issue.

 

Ye gods! I cannot imagine spending an arm and a leg on college and then not going to class! That's just depressing.

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