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s/o Non-Christians Going to Church?


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We have a beautiful Episcopal Church around the corner. It is "our church". We attend Christmas Eve mass there most years, and try to help them in their missions to feed the hungry and the destitute.

 

We also have family connections to the Anglican Church and I feel very at home there, other than the obvious problem.

 

Bill

 

You are not alone in this...

 

Jenny the laps, Episcabujew. :D

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I'm probably (for better or worse) far less likely to visit a church where peoples first reaction is praying the Holy Spirit moves on me, but still I'd assume most places some people would look at me as a "nice young man" (everything is "relative") who they would assume was a Christian, and a potential new congregant. And if you don't come back, maybe they feel disappointed?

 

Bill

 

I suppose that would depend on the size of the church. Smaller churches would notice your presence more than the huge megachurches. Huge megachurches get visitors all the time, so the in and out flow of people is more normal to them. I have visited a primarily african-american gospel church once or twice, and they were VERY inclusive, encouraging me to join in and sing. "It don't matter if you don't know the words or howl like a dog! Just sing something!"

 

I guess it all depends on your perceived motivation. If you went around telling everyone, "I'm just observing," I could see how some might find that odd, since nobody likes to feel like they are the apes to someone else's Jane Goodall! :lol:

 

Usually, just stating, "I'm a visitor" is sufficient explanation for most churches I've visited. Nothing more need be said.

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Officer Daddyman plans to start taking the kids to various houses of worship in middle school as part of our comparative religions program. Neither of us are religious -- he vaguely ascribes to some eastern philosophies and I think of myself as a nonspecific areligious believer (Daddyman calls me a Deist, as I believe in some sort of godforce, I just don't think it's up in anyone's grill) -- but he's very interested in the ways people worship and why. He thinks it would be good for the children to be exposed to a wide array of beliefs so they can come to their own spiritual conclusions.

 

I think you, me, Officer Daddyman, and Mrs Spy Car could hang-out :001_smile:

 

Bill

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OK, Bill, please don't take this the wrong way: I think you're projecting more importance on your presence in a church than will the regular attenders/members. :D

 

Honestly, we're used to people visiting. There are always new faces. It's wonderful! I can't imagine you going to a church and openly mocking, rolling your eyes, or causing a disturbance, so that's not really an issue.

 

I highly doubt that simply being a new face in the crowd will arouse anyone's hopes or expectations of your joining their church.

Edited by Hillary in KS
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I've gone to numerous church services at places where I disagreed with the church's philosophy. It didn't make the experience in church any less holy.

 

As a child, raised Catholic, I attended Pentacostal holiness church with my grandmother and Southern baptist services with my best friend. I saw a whole lot of stuff that you just didn't see in Catholic church but to me it was all still God's house. It was just different ways of celebrating.

 

I feel everyone is welcome in God's house, no matter what flavor. If you are compelled to go there I don't think any human can judge why you are there. (Or who sent you.) If I saw you at my services, I wouldn't feel the need to convert you. I'd just be happy that God brought you in and hope that you go what you were sent to get.

 

But I am an odd duck.

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Actually, you would not be the first non-Catholic to approach a priest for confession. :) Most priests would be glad to talk with you further if you had any questions about the Catholic faith.

 

 

This is very true. One of my very good friends is a priest. When he first came to this community, I taught him English. He is fully aware of my non-belief and what I do for spiritual practice and neither judges me for it, nor attempts to "save my soul." We have wonderfully respectful discourses on the Catholic faith and aspects thereof, as well as on witchcraft and its various practices.

 

Of all the churches I have been in over the years (Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Orthodox - and including synogogues) the Catholics were the most open to non-member/non-believer visits, and the least likely to proselytize as well. Just my experience, but Catholics seem to have a sense that each person will take away from it what they will, and that is just fine.

 

That said... if you were ever interested in conversion... they will certainly load you up with information and assistance, but unless you ask, they don't push.

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"I hope this isn't too shocking. And I took Communion from the Archbishop of Firenza. It didn't seem "wrong" at the time (quite to the contrary) but I now understand it probably wasn't 100% kosher.

 

My sincere apologies to anyone who is offended that I partook in a holy sacrament without being a confirmed member of the faith. I understand I crossed a line I ought not have. I hope my confession does not cause ill feelings. Mea Culpa."

 

But you see, Bill, someone of faith would say that you most certainly are as kosher as you can be. You are a child of God and as welcome to serve Him as the next child. You crossed a line that I would hope you cross again. Perhaps sometime you will decide to stay on the other side of that line....

 

As you say, visiting out of curiousity might be better done within a larger congregation where you will not give false hope that you might give to a smaller, more struggling group. On the other hand, if you are upfront with them about why you are there (and they should not mind if they are really in the right spirit, I might add), rather than pretending to be "one of the faithful", you would not be holding out false hope to them.....

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I I have visited a primarily african-american gospel church once or twice, and they were VERY inclusive, encouraging me to join in and sing. "It don't matter if you don't know the words or howl like a dog! Just sing something!"

 

I love the black church. As a child my father was the instrumental figure in saving the Watts Towers (he actually owned them for a time). So from infancy, many week-ends during my early years were spent roaming the streets of Watts.

 

I loved going into the store-front churches that dotted the boulevard. All the church-ladies knew me and showed me with affection. And the sounds of gospel music and spirit-filled rejoicing was soul-stirring. Still is.

 

I guess it all depends on your perceived motivation. If you went around telling everyone, "I'm just observing," I could see how some might find that odd, since nobody likes to feel like they are the apes to someone else's Jane Goodall! :lol:

 

Usually, just stating, "I'm a visitor" is sufficient explanation for most churches I've visited. Nothing more need be said.

 

What I tell them is I want to come out and meet my neighbors and I tell them who I am, and I try to let them know I appreciate their having me. Which is the truth.

 

Bill

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I think it's great that you go to church at times. Church when done well is beautiful and stirring. I think that you should go and not worry about what everyone else is doing or wondering. When I go to church, I go to worship God and to be taught so I don't worry about what everyone else is doing.

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I have also partaken in communion at weddings and baptisms. I've been baptized, so even though I don't ascribe to those specific sets of beliefs, I feel participation in the spiritual symbol on behalf of the married couple or parents isn't wrong or harmful.

 

 

It depends on what Christian denomination you are attending. Some Christian denominations have open Communion for anyone who is baptized and others do not. Some believe Communion is merely symbolic, while others, such as Catholics and Orthodox believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. It would be best to find out ahead of time, out of respect for the traditions of the church to which you are attending, their guidelines regarding partaking of Communion.

 

As for the Catholic Church, the link below has the guidelines for reception of Holy Communion.

 

http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp

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Believe it (or not) I've considered going to a Priest for Confession, but then thought I'd just be compounding the problem :lol:

 

And can you imagine the can of worms?

 

"Bless me Father for I have sinned. It's been 51 years since I my last, uh actually...."

 

 

 

Growing up (and to this day) most of my friends are either Catholics or Jews, so I know all about "Guilt" :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

Just in case you ever do decide to go, it is, "Bless me Father for I have sinned. This is my first Confession."

 

;)

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You wouldn't have a problem attending an Orthodox Church. Just don't attempt communion, some priests have been known to on-the-spot interview a person they don't know, so I've heard (to find out whether they qualify for communion). You may, however, go up with everyone at the end of service and receive the antidoran (sp), the blessed bread. It's a good time to say hello to priest :) And don't worry, even though members may be kissing the cross, knowing that you aren't a member, the priest would not expect such from you. And if you don't go up for the blessed bread, don't be surprised if some yiayia comes by and gives you some ;) I have some funny yiayia stories :D

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You wouldn't have a problem attending an Orthodox Church. Just don't attempt communion, some priests have been known to on-the-spot interview a person they don't know, so I've heard (to find out whether they qualify for communion). You may, however, go up with everyone at the end of service and receive the antidoran (sp), the blessed bread. It's a good time to say hello to priest :) And don't worry, even though members may be kissing the cross, knowing that you aren't a member, the priest would not expect such from you. And if you don't go up for the blessed bread, don't be surprised if some yiayia comes by and gives you some ;) I have some funny yiayia stories :D

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I highly doubt that simply being a new face in the crowd will arouse anyone's hopes or expectations of your joining their church.

 

As you say, visiting out of curiousity might be better done within a larger congregation where you will not give false hope that you might give to a smaller, more struggling group. On the other hand, if you are upfront with them about why you are there (and they should not mind if they are really in the right spirit, I might add), rather than pretending to be "one of the faithful", you would not be holding out false hope to them.....

 

It may have happened once or twice, but when you attend a service and you are not a face in the crowd (bing there is "no crowd"), and you can see people are excited to see a new face, then I've felt a certain sadness.

 

Even at our Episcopal Church services are small. Even on Christmas Eve with the beautiful ceremony, there are few people. And I worry that church is slowly dying. And I'll be sad if that happens.

 

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
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...about the Holy Communion issue--you're being advised not to partake not because it's a big game of keep away, but rather because it's Biblically considered spiritually dangerous to partake if you're not an informed, repentant believer. It's for your own good not to partake, not accusatory like you're sneaking something if you do, or anything like that.

:iagree::iagree:

I'm not sure I can let myself off the hook that easily, because while I'm no authority on canon law, somewhere in my consciousness I must have been aware that I should have been a confirmed member of the Church to have received Communion. At the time it felt right because I felt like I was in a communion of brotherhood with the congregants in that church, and was feeling rather ecstatic.

Bill

My church doesn't have a membership at all (even if someone wanted one) and visitors are always most welcome. I teach a group of kids on Wednesday nights and I always have kids coming and going and welcome them heartily to our group. I know that in my church nobody would bat an eye if you came to observe in fact you would be welcomed warmly but as far as the communion issue (although I don't fault you at all, you acted in innocence I'm sure) I agree with Carol. Communion is the representation of the body and blood of Jesus Christ that was sacrificed for our sins and by taking the elements into your body internally you are in essence saying that you want Christ inside of you and your receive His sacrifice for your sins. It is for that reason that you shouldn't take it if you don't want this. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 11:27 that "whosoever shall eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord." Essentially you are drinking and eating judgement upon yourself. That is why we advise you to abstain for your own good. :)

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OK, Bill, please don't take this the wrong way: I think you're projecting more importance on your presence in a church than will the regular attenders/members. :D

 

Honestly, we're used to people visiting. There are always new faces. It's wonderful! I can't imagine you going to a church and openly mocking, rolling your eyes, or causing a disturbance, so that's not really an issue.

 

I highly doubt that simply being a new face in the crowd will arouse anyone's hopes or expectations of your joining their church.

 

Totally unrelated, but I thought you were a banned member for a moment when I first saw your avatar. :)

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You wouldn't have a problem attending an Orthodox Church. Just don't attempt communion, some priests have been known to on-the-spot interview a person they don't know, so I've heard (to find out whether they qualify for communion).

 

Believe me I wouldn't try to get past an Orthodox Priest. Where do they get these guys? :D

 

You may, however, go up with everyone at the end of service and receive the antidoran (sp), the blessed bread.

 

Huh, I've never done that. Next time.

 

It's a good time to say hello to priest :) And don't worry, even though members may be kissing the cross, knowing that you aren't a member, the priest would not expect such from you. And if you don't go up for the blessed bread, don't be surprised if some yiayia comes by and gives you some ;) I have some funny yiayia stories :D

 

What's a yiayia?

 

Bill

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It may have happened once or twice, but when you attend a service and you are not a face in the crowd (bing there is "no crowd"), and you can see people are excited to see a new face, then I've felt a certain sadness.

 

Even at our Episcopal Church services are small. Even on Christmas Eve with the beautiful ceremony, there are few people. And I worry that church is slowly dying. And I'll be sad if that happens.

 

Bill

I'll have to admit if you brought a 10ish-year old girl with you I'd get excited to see you. That would be a potential new playmate for dd who seems to be having trouble making friends here.

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Believe me I wouldn't try to get past an Orthodox Priest. Where do they get these guys? :D

 

 

:lol:

 

 

What's a yiayia?

 

Bill

 

A grandmother...but I was loosely referencing any of the elderly ladies. You wonder where we get our priests, try getting past a yiayia!

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Um, yea. Does that make my transgression much worse???

 

I'm feeling like this can not be good :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

It happened and you can't change it. Consider it an act of Providence. (and I don't see how baptism or no baptism makes it better or worse ;) )

 

Now the views on how it affects you, as seen by various Christians, can range from you receiving an a means of Grace through it to you having partaken to your condemnation. But in the end, that is between you and God. And a priest if you ever want to take it up with one. But what's done is done. You know now for the future how to respond (just politely decline).

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Um, yea. Does that make my transgression much worse???

 

I'm feeling like this can not be good :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

I don't see why it would.

 

But I'm a little confused. I thought you were referring to Episcopal Church as "our church". Is your wife Episcopalian and you just attend along with her, then?

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I would love to be a fly on the wall if you visited the local eastern orthodox monastery that we have nearby. You could probably have some great insight as to how and why someone would become a priest or choose to live as a monk etc. They have a very beautiful healing service where the doors to the alter open and there are tons of candles lit and the parishioners are singing (or chanting sort of). You might enjoy it. Ruby

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I don't see why it would.

 

But I'm a little confused. I thought you were referring to Episcopal Church as "our church". Is your wife Episcopalian and you just attend along with her, then?

 

No. We are similarly minded. I think we both enjoy the liturgical aspects of the Episcopal Church, greatly enjoy the music and the sense of traditions, and feel a sense of respect for the social mission of the church. I have family members who are Anglican/Episcopal, and my wife (who was not raised Episcopalian) sometimes attended this same church as a child.

 

When her father passed, we held a service there, and the kindness of the Father there touched us both. So we try to help them, and we feel a certain bond there, despite not being people of faith.

 

Bill

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You'd be welcome in our church. And you have the right to take communion and participate in anything else you wish to in ours. Nobody will try to convert you, since we believe everybody has to find their own way, anyway. Well, I suppose we would encourage you to think about tolerance and compassion and living more greenly, but you can do that within whatever framework you wish. We have plenty of people who just visit occasionally. We get the "mixed" marriages, the disenchanted who would like support in their new search for the meaning in life, the people who just would like a company doing good works, people who are in a growth spurt, and people who are happily stagnating. Some of us even were raised UU GRIN. Our minister used to be a Catholic priest, and our moderator was Jewish (the temple fees were too high), and some of our members are Buddhist. Tourists are welcome, even if they are just tourists. : )

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Um, yea. Does that make my transgression much worse???

 

I'm feeling like this can not be good :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

Interesting stuff. I had a similar experience at an Episcopal church in New York City. I was visiting my godfather and his mother, who was studying to become a priest. The campus was green and natural, a little oasis in the middle of Manhattan. I attended an Easter service at the chapel on campus. It was very dark, lit by candles and some dim ground level lighting. The singing was beautiful and the whole church seemed to expand until the roof disappeared and the music and light stretched off into forever.

 

The Communion portion of the service started and it brought up an interesting mix of feelings for me. I spent six years in Catholic school sitting alone on a pew while the rest of my classmates received Communion during every Friday afternoon mass. I asked my godfather if I should remain in my seat and he said that I should make up my own mind.

 

I sat quietly a few moments and then felt moved to go down and participate. I received Communion and felt a powerful sense of acceptance and warmth (beyond the immediate effect of the wine). After the service I asked my godfather if he was Epsicopalian. He replied "No, but I love God." I laugh every time I think of that conversation.

 

I was not baptised in any traditional sense and had never participated in Catholic or Episcopal sacraments prior to that day. Being respectful of others is good, and being honest about one's intentions is good, but the point of ceremony is (should be?) to align humans with God. I figure any member of a church who would stand in the way of that has entirely missed the point.

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Um, yea. Does that make my transgression much worse???

 

I'm feeling like this can not be good :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

You've gotten things a bit out of order, but I don't see where anyone can condemn you for it.

 

As mommaduck said, your first communion was pretty much an act of God.

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Interesting stuff. I had a similar experience at an Episcopal church in New York City. I was visiting my godfather and his mother, who was studying to become a priest. The campus was green and natural, a little oasis in the middle of Manhattan. I attended an Easter service at the chapel on campus. It was very dark, lit by candles and some dim ground level lighting. The singing was beautiful and the whole church seemed to expand until the roof disappeared and the music and light stretched off into forever.

 

The Communion portion of the service started and it brought up an interesting mix of feelings for me. I spent six years in Catholic school sitting alone on a pew while the rest of my classmates received Communion during every Friday afternoon mass. I asked my godfather if I should remain in my seat and he said that I should make up my own mind.

 

I sat quietly a few moments and then felt moved to go down and participate. I received Communion and felt a powerful sense of acceptance and warmth (beyond the immediate effect of the wine). After the service I asked my godfather if he was Epsicopalian. He replied "No, but I love God." I laugh every time I think of that conversation.

 

I was not baptised in any traditional sense and had never participated in Catholic or Episcopal sacraments prior to that day. Being respectful of others is good, and being honest about one's intentions is good, but the point of ceremony is (should be?) to align humans with God. I figure any member of a church who would stand in the way of that has entirely missed the point.

 

Wonderful story :001_smile:

 

I wonder if this was my Aunt and Uncle's church? Could be.

 

Bill

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I hope this isn't too shocking. And I took Communion from the Archbishop of Firenza. It didn't seem "wrong" at the time (quite to the contrary) but I now understand it probably wasn't 100% kosher.

 

My sincere apologies to anyone who is offended that I partook in a holy sacrament without being a confirmed member of the faith. I understand I crossed a line I ought not have. I hope my confession does not cause ill feelings. Mea Culpa.

 

Bill

 

That is just flat out awesome. With extra awesome sauce.

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I think organized church is dying out in many areas, but a much more real sort of "church", home churches, are on the increase throughout the country..... I love much of the architecture, art, and pageantry of churches such as the Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc., too, but the trappings really are not the church. The people are the church.....

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I think organized church is dying out in many areas, but a much more real sort of "church", home churches, are on the increase throughout the country..... I love much of the architecture, art, and pageantry of churches such as the Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc., too, but the trappings really are not the church. The people are the church.....

"Real" is subjective to viewpoint ;)

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On the other hand, I can't help but think that your desire to engage in such an activity suggests that you are seeking--something.

 

Sometimes all a person in that situation is seeking is confirmation that they are correct in their beliefs and people sometimes find what they are seeking.

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I think organized church is dying out in many areas, but a much more real sort of "church", home churches, are on the increase throughout the country..... I love much of the architecture, art, and pageantry of churches such as the Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc., too, but the trappings really are not the church. The people are the church.....

 

The people, indwelt by God, are the Church, true, very true.

 

I think, though, that the 'real' Church can sit very well with trappings as part of its nest, and that it is fitly set, like a jewel in a crown, that way.

 

Jaroslav Pelikan once called tradition the living faith of dead people, which is pretty good. He also called traditionalism the dead faith of living people, which is also pretty good. Tradition, in the form of those trappings, can be meaningful if it accompanies and enhances the 'real' church. Traditionalism is always dead because it is always concerned only with the trappings. Lutherans say that the Church exists where the Word of God is taught in its truth and purity and where the Sacraments are administered according to the Word of God. That can happen in a home church and also in a trapping blessed/laden church. It's the presence of the Spirit that counts in each case.

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Really? I just thought that since you had another person's avatar that you were them, :lol: But I guess it's not their avatar if they aren't here. ;)

 

 

Nope. I've been here over 10 years. Never banned. :001_smile:

 

I do have the same character avatar as a showing of support to another poster. But I am not her.

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Go for it.

 

(But then, I'm the person whose family decided to go to lots of church services, at different churches, as a fun and cheap thing to do. We kept going to the church we'd been a part of for years on Sunday morning, complete with Sunday School and everything, but we also began going to a nondenominational church with fun activities for the kids on Saturdays and Wednesdays, mostly just bc it had fun music, was interesting, and had good kids activities. There was a short time we went to three or even four different churches over a weekend......enjoyed both charismatic, nondenominational worship and high anglo catholic mass, as well as a middle of the road small but not tiny church.)

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Absolutely! We'd welcome both of you at our homechurch -- no prosletyzing (by us) but welcoming someone who is just wanting to learn is great! I'd do the same and visit a syngogue or mosque to get a better idea if I had the opportunity. :)

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This is very true. One of my very good friends is a priest. When he first came to this community, I taught him English. He is fully aware of my non-belief and what I do for spiritual practice and neither judges me for it, nor attempts to "save my soul." We have wonderfully respectful discourses on the Catholic faith and aspects thereof, as well as on witchcraft and its various practices.

 

Of all the churches I have been in over the years (Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Orthodox - and including synogogues) the Catholics were the most open to non-member/non-believer visits, and the least likely to proselytize as well. Just my experience, but Catholics seem to have a sense that each person will take away from it what they will, and that is just fine.

 

That said... if you were ever interested in conversion... they will certainly load you up with information and assistance, but unless you ask, they don't push.

 

I have found Catholics and LDS to be the least proselytizing.

 

I know some would be shocked by the latter, but I mean it - I grew up with many LDS families and have lived in LDS communities. No one has ever been anything but kind and answered my questions. Maybe they convert by question answering? I don't know.

 

 

a

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I have found Catholics and LDS to be the least proselytizing.

 

I know some would be shocked by the latter, but I mean it - I grew up with many LDS families and have lived in LDS communities. No one has ever been anything but kind and answered my questions. Maybe they convert by question answering? I don't know.

 

 

a

 

 

:iagree: I'd also add Jews, Hindus & Buddhists.

 

I was in a quilting circle with a Catholic friend & about 10 LDS ladies, for about a year. Never a mention was made to me about converting or even exploring their faiths.

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