AP plus SAT Subject Tests:can you tell me (maybe again, sorry!) WHY ?

[MaryM]

Can someone give me the thought process behind having kids take BOTH AP and SAT subject tests? Seems like we are adding more and more tests to our kids plate these days. I know selective colleges ask for "proof" but do these kids do it ALL? Thanks!

 

Mary

[TRILLIUM]

Well some school do require a few SAT subject tests for admission. For these schools AP test will not substitute. On the other hand AP tests are used to show college level mastery and get credit awarded. For a kid who has studied hard for the AP test taking the SAT subject test at the same time is better than taking it and restuding at a later date. Some kids who take the SAT subject tests with AP test may end up not needing both test scores.

[Gwen in VA]

Colleges want to do an "apples-to-apples" comparison, and for whatever reason the more selective schools use SAT-II's for that, not AP exams. Not all schools require SAT-II's, but some that don't require "normal" students to take them really want homeschoolers to have taken some (like William & Mary). And some schools really do require three SAT-II's.

 

Do check with the individual schools your child is interested in, though. Why make the College Board richer than it already is? (I feel like we have given the College Board so much money.....)

 

If your child is taking an AP exam in May, working through and SAT-II study guide and then taking the SAT-II subject test in June is pretty straightforward, and your child will probably do VERY well on the SAT-II.

[Myrtle]

For these schools AP test will not substitute.

 

 

Fordham has a report out questioning if AP exams deserve the "Gold Star" status that they seem to have with parents of highs school students and their teachers. They had academicians from each of the fields evaluate the exams. David Klein, the mathematician reviewing the Calculus exam, gave it a relatively low score. A squabble ensued as Fordham tried to coerce him to raise his final grade and he refused to back down. (See Washington Post's article "Secret Gripes of Professor Klein")Ultimately he requested that his name be removed from their report and they raised the score.

 

The Washington Post has a forum dedicated to the discussion of AP exams and other entrance exams. Lots of fun politics and public disputes over there where the journalist hash it out with admissions and parents over these issues.

 

If elite colleges don't believe that AP exams represent high standards it would explain why they are looking for alternative proof of mastery of a subject area other than the AP exam.

[Moira in MA]

If elite colleges don't believe that AP exams represent high standards it would explain why they are looking for alternative proof of mastery of a subject area other than the AP exam.

 

Most elite colleges are private corporations. They are in business. An AP credential that gives a student exemption from a class means less money in their pocket.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[MaryM]

My cynicism has caused me to have these exact same thoughts Moira! But with all the hoopla about AP's and CB approval of courses I was wondering what was driving THAT aside from assuring some basic standard.

 

Myrtle, thanks for those link! Excellent reading that will keep me questioning.

 

Gwen, I know YOU have BTDT with your kids and I admire your tenacity in making it all happen for each of them. I guess I am just in the phase where I am tired of planning and prepping for these tests when there are so many more interesting things to LEARN. My ds has been taking standardized tests since he was nine and I fear burn out for both of us. Lesson learned there too!

 

Trillium, yes, some schools require SAT 2's but many "will" accept AP in their place. Guess I am just perplexed by the large number of homeschoolers I see taking a boat load of these tests. Oh well, it is what it is!

 

Thank you all for your helpful comments!

 

Mary

[Susan in IL]

Ds had 4 APs. None of the schools that my ds looked at required SAT II tests from homeschoolers or anyone else so he didn't bother with them. These were all more selective schools (avg. ACT 28). It really depends on the school.

[Gwen in VA]

I hear you. I am not crazy about tests either.

 

I don't know what tests you were having your son do at age 9. When my kids were younger I balked at having them do many tests. My homeschool "we're here to learn, not do test prep" approach completely dominated what we did until around 9th grade. Other than the yearly Stanford Achievement Test, my kids didn't do tests of any kind until freshman year. (And I mean any kind -- we didn't do spelling tests or history tests or....!)

 

Then --

 

1) I really looked at the AP course descriptions and got really excited. These course descriptions really covered what we wanted our kids to cover in many subjects. So they have done lots of AP courses.

 

2) Even in high school, outside of their online courses and the College Board tests, my kids don't do tests. My kids don't do midterms or finals in their classes done with me. Honestly, I don't give my any tests other than math tests, and I have an open book policy, so the math tests aren't really any different than any other math assignment! I could count all the tests my ds and dd have taken in high school, and the number would at a guess be around 30. That includes all the College Board ones and all the midterms and finals for their online ones. That really isn't that many tests! So even though my kids have each done 5 SAT-II's and 5 or 6 AP's, they have done fairly little other testing. They certainly haven't been slaving away, going from test to test.

 

Studying for tests is a useful skill that they need to be good at before college.....My kids have learned an AMAZING amount about how to approach learning in the weeks before AP and SAT-II' exams!

 

3) I do sympathize a bit with the dilemma of colleges. So many talented students, so little space. I even sympathize with the colleges on the issue of homeschoolers -- how can the admissions folks compare hs'ers to other well-qualified students? I want my kids to get in to the college of their choice, and if taking a few SAT-II's will help them achieve that goal, then I feel that they should jump through the hoop and take the tests!

[MaryM]

I hear you. I am not crazy about tests either.

 

I don't know what tests you were having your son do at age 9. When my kids were younger I balked at having them do many tests. My homeschool "we're here to learn, not do test prep" approach completely dominated what we did until around 9th grade. Other than the yearly Stanford Achievement Test, my kids didn't do tests of any kind until freshman year. (And I mean any kind -- we didn't do spelling tests or history tests or....!)

 

Well, it was the good old SAT/ACT thru Talent Search. You see, we also test in every subject we do (through an umbrella school) and those are rigorous tests, college level really so testing is definitely a large part of life these days with college coming. I can see where only doing the standardized testing would seriously cut down on testing overkill!

 

Mary

[Laura Corin]

Fordham has a report out questioning if AP exams deserve the "Gold Star" status that they seem to have with parents of highs school students and their teachers.

 

The review of the IB only looked at the subjects at standard level, whereas the report itself says that students must study three of the subjects at higher level. That being the case, I don't think the comparison of IB with AP as a school leaving test is strictly fair: someone with an IB diploma will have studied three subjects at roughly AP level (the report suggests that AP and IB standard level are roughly comparable) plus three subjects at a higher level.

 

Laura

[TRILLIUM]

We live in a hands off state. Have no unbrella. So our only tests that feel real are the SAT, ACT and AP. It is my way of getting outside assessment of the work done. Next year my dd will be 16 and we can take cc classes, so we'll have another means of outside assesment.

 

So far we've only done one SAT subject, the PSAT and one Standardized test in 8th grade. This spring she'll do two AP's and maybe a matching SAT subject or the ACT or SAT.

[ereks mom]

I really don't understand why the SAT or ACT score can't just be enough. My ds had planned to apply to GA Tech; we viewed it sort of as our benchmark of homeschooling success: if he could get into Tech, we would know we had achieved our goals.

 

But when it came down to it and we saw that they require more "proof" from homeschoolers, ds chose, as a matter of principle, not to bother. They require 3 SAT IIs or AP tests or college coursework (???) plus this form, which requires parents to explain their reasons for choosing to homeschool, their relationship with the state DOE, whether the student met state DOE standards, how science labs & foreign language courses were conducted & evaluated, and a detailed bibliography of textbooks & resources for every high school course.

 

I believe that this is a relatively new (this year) policy. When ds first expressed interest in GA Tech 3 or 4 years ago, we went to their website to find out what was required for homeschool admission, and I saw they required 3 specific SAT IIs or AP tests, but I did not see this form or anything like it.

 

GA Tech did some pretty heavy recruiting to get ds to apply there and to enter their competitive scholarship program, so we looked again at their website this year. Ds was pretty hesitant about having to complete 3 additional tests (partially due to the expense, but mainly because we felt that the additional requirements for homeschoolers was unfair). Then when we saw all these (new this year?) requirements, ds refused to apply.

 

I contacted the admissions office to protest the policies, and I received thise-mail from one of the admissions directors: "Thank you for your email. I am sorry that you and your son feel our Home School policies are unfair. It's interesting that you have that perspective, however, because we have recently done studies on Home School admissions policies with our peer institutions. We looked historically at our home school students entering Tech and made modifications this summer." The modifications they made were apparently this new form with its additional requirements!

 

It really aggravates me that an obviously bright kid like my ds should be expected to jump through all these hoops to prove himself to people who should be able to recognize talent in the first place. Okay, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now. ;)

[Anne/Ankara]

That is very interesting about Georgia Tech... I wonder if all the other selective universities are moving in that direction regarding homeschooled applicants. Let's monitor this one and report back here...

[Myrtle]

Ereksmom,

 

That is just unreal. Sounds like this paperwork hurdle was created after they got hit with folks gaming the system. They are trying to minimize their type I errors, but it's going to cost them some type II errors.

 

You are right in that they are going to let a lot of talent slip by undetected. When they hear about their "rejects" getting accepted into more prestigious universities, they'll go back and once again change their policy.

[TRILLIUM]

Cynical reply from the other side. Having the best students as your student body. When we ask is this a good school we look at the credentials of the student body. Even within this thread the average ACT score of the student body was quoted as evidence of the schools prestige.

 

Homeschooler vary so much. Some people do look for the minimum a kid can do just to award a credit. Others are quite rigorous. What does a school do when trying to compare homeschool apples and oranges? They are still in the beginning of the learning curve and their reputations do rest on the students they admit.

[ereks mom]

Mary M, I'm in complete agreement with you here: "I guess I am just in the phase where I am tired of planning and prepping for these tests when there are so many more interesting things to LEARN."

 

And I feel so very much like Janice in NJ, who said in another thread: "Somehow it just wasn't what I envisioned ... I wanted to spend our time exploring philosophy, the sciences, and the wonder of real mathematics. I wanted to spend our days reading novels, and I wanted my son to pursue his passions before he heads out into the "real world" of college, work, and life in general. Now it looks like almost all we will be doing is studying for tests - and trying to cram in course work. ...I just want to teach. I just want to learn. I'm so tired or playing curriculum development manager and guidance counselor. Somehow I feel like I'm being tricked here into giving up my dreams."

 

My poor ds -- oldest child -- has been my guinea pig through all of this homeschool journey. Yes, I feel that he has received an excellent education, the best I knew how to do it at the time. I know God has guided and protected! : )

 

But knowing now what I *wish* I had known before, I think my dd's educational career will look a whole lot different from her brother's. She's at least as intellectually gifted as ds, although her ways of learning are sometimes different. I think through my journey with ds, maybe I've learned to relax a bit. Just the familiarity aving done it one time already makes it a little less scary for me. With dd, I will give more attention to some academic areas (e.g. writing -- she'll write more) and less to others (e.g. vocabulary -- she'll just read more), and I will be a bit more relaxed and interest-driven than test-driven.

[MaryM]

Yes, ereksmom, we are in agreement there!! As I recall your son had really great ACt scores and the ACT is a true achievement test with science included so I just don't see the rationale for some of these schools. It flies in the face of all the data about how much better homeschoolers do in college. Anecdotally, we have a friend whose daughter entered the Naval Academy this past fall after using the same program we do and not having any AP, SAT II scores but a single cc class. She is in the top two of her class and the top student is another homeschooler! Their GPA's in college are a point higher than the average of the rest of the class. Yet some schools require more hoops! Personally, I think your strategy for your next child is spot on!

 

Mary

[kathleen]

Homeschooler vary so much. Some people do look for the minimum a kid can do just to award a credit. Others are quite rigorous. What does a school do when trying to compare homeschool apples and oranges? They are still in the beginning of the learning curve and their reputations do rest on the students they admit.

 

I might agree with this if public schools didn't vary so much, too. Some schools have students do the bare minimum, some are quite rigorous. The standardized test scores (SAT, ACT, AP) would show the differences. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be the case for homeschooled students, too. I don't see why they have to jump through extra hoops (like SAT IIs).

[Ms. Riding Hood]

Ds was pretty hesitant about having to complete 3 additional tests (partially due to the expense, but mainly because we felt that the additional requirements for homeschoolers was unfair). Then when we saw all these (new this year?) requirements, ds refused to apply.

 

Good for you! It seems like I've heard this about Georgia schools across the board. When more people vote with their money, maybe things will change.

 

I wonder what other "peer institutions" they looked at before modifying their policies? Not that I'm widely experienced, but the schools we've looked at haven't required anything extra (and that would include MIT...but maybe they aren't a "peer" of Ga Tech?) :D

[TRILLIUM]

I might agree with this if public schools didn't vary so much, too. Some schools have students do the bare minimum, some are quite rigorous. The standardized test scores (SAT, ACT, AP) would show the differences. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be the case for homeschooled students, too. I don't see why they have to jump through extra hoops (like SAT IIs).

 

 

But public schools have enough students and a track record. Individual homeschool don't. I'm told that GPA's and class ranks at different public schools really are viewed differently depending on the school.