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Is anyone turning their backs on the whole AP class route and doing anything different? I have found myself extremely disenchanted with the domination of AP classes, their focus on memorization and testing, the superficial coverage at the expense of in-depth focus. AP has a huge influence, practically prescribing high school course choices for college-bound kids in California due to the UC system's pushing of weighted course grades and the high emphasis on weighted grade point average. I would really rather not go that route with my daughter. She has proven to me time and again that she can memorize. What I want is for her to develop other skills that take more time and go into a topic in depth rather than going for breadth of coverage.

 

I've read that many highly elite prep schools back east -- Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, and the like -- have moved entirely away from the whole AP curriculum and are offering topic seminars instead. You can see them on school websites under curriculum or course of study; they look pretty interesting to me, a valid and much more engaging alternative. I'm currently planning a few topic-based literature and history seminars for my daughter based on her input. Has anyone else done this? How do you go about it? What have your results been?

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KarenAnne,

 

My philosophical issues with AP have surfaced on this board several times. Here is one thread that goes back to '08. At that point my son was starting 11th grade, having self studied for the AP Biology exam in 10th.

 

Let me add a postscript to my entries in that thread.

 

In retrospect, AP Bio may not be the best way to introduce a student or parent/teacher to AP exams. It is overwhelming because of the sheer volume of information. Because I had serious doubts on whether this was the route with the most value for my son, we decided to skip AP in 11th and have him focus on CC classes and our homegrown ones. In particular, I wanted him to study chemistry at our local CC where they have good lab facilities and two profs with respectable reputations.

 

AP opened a door for my son during the second semester of that year. Because he had fulfilled a general biology prerequisite, he was allowed to take a basic microbiology course--which he adored! This provided some fairly nuanced lab work, hence increasing his general microscopy skills. So while I shook my fist at AP Bio often the previous year, it did lead to something positive.

 

The unfortunate reality is that in our CC has limited courses and a mixed bag of instructors. Latin? Not at our CC--nor is Latin Literature offered at the regional university closest to us. It had been an early goal for my son to work his way up to Vergil so when he was ready to study the Aeneid it became clear that a virtual AP Latin course was indeed the a good choice. Further, given his potential major, it will be wise to have this one under his belt.

 

I am prepping my son for AP Calculus. Having taught numerous college Calculus courses over the years, I certainly know the subject matter--although not the weird spin that AP puts on it! (I have been growling about required calculator usage on this board.)

 

So, having my doubts about AP, here were are, preparing for AP exams in May. Yet the most meaningful thing that my son has done in high school (in his eyes) was the 100+ volunteer hours he clocked at an archaeological field school and the senior project that is coming out of that experience. I wanted my son to have some sort of project focus in high school and he literally stumbled on it during the spring of '09, continuing his research work on the subject.

 

Bottom line: we tried to find the best path for my son using the resources that are available. We had some CC opportunities. Some board participants have better CCs with many more classes, even honors. Some board participants do not have access to CCs (or prefer not to use them) so they go the AP route, either with self study or online courses. Some of us have kids who are focused on a future goal and seem able to make connections, determine projects and dive in. Others kids are not quite there. I think we have to make the best of our situations and opportunities (remembering that we often have to create those opportunities--they don't always find us).

 

By the way, the young man to whom I referred in the other thread who did not go the AP route is a freshman at a well known LAC where he received a full tuition scholarship. He did that on the basis of an amazing portfolio of work in the sciences and arts. There is hope!

 

Jane

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I think your relationship to AP depends on what goals you have in mind... APs can be a good "tool" to show colleges what you've accomplished, but there are certainly other tools out there to do the same things.

 

Personally, I think the language APs (which I have by far the most experience with) are a mixed bag -- On one hand, I'm not sure I would've reached Spanish fluency as quickly without Spanish APs motivating me. On the other hand, as a classicist, I find the Latin AP pretty boring. There is such a breadth of wonderful Latin literature that it's a shame to have high school kids only focus on one thing.

 

Have you considered doing a course of your choosing - Virgil, for example - and trying out a practice AP test to see if it's worth paying the fee to have documented scores? This might be a happy medium between doing what feels good and getting credit in the UC system. You might also choose SAT 2s to give colleges an idea of proficiency levels.

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As the parent of students who have taken six different AP science and humanities courses (for a total of eleven), I think that

 

their focus on memorization and testing, the superficial coverage at the expense of in-depth focus

 

may not be a fair representation of AP courses. My kids have not taken all of the AP's, so I am not saying that no AP focuses on memorization and only covers the material superficially, but I am saying that that has not been our experience.

 

I have found that the AP courses actually do cover the material in the way I like. The courses do emphasize dealing with huge amounts of material, but they also emphasize assimilating knowledge quickly, writing lots of essays, dealing with primary source material, and learning the "grammar" of the subject at hand.

 

I particularly value the emphasis on writing responses quickly. This skill has proved invaluable to my kids at college!

 

If your goals don't line up with the AP scope and sequence, don't go the AP route. But do investigate the AP scopes and sequence for each course. When I did, I was really impressed with not only with the material covered but also the way that the material was covered.

 

Also, not all AP courses are particularly geared to the test. One child's AP Lit class was totally focused on test prep, but the same child's AP Latin Vergil course was basically a in-depth study of Vergil's Aeneid with a token nod in about mid-April that there was an AP exam approaching. Especially with a course like AP English Literature where the book selections are up to the teacher, you can approach the course in myriad different ways.

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As the parent of students who have taken six different AP science and humanities courses (for a total of eleven), I think that

 

 

 

may not be a fair representation of AP courses. My kids have not taken all of the AP's, so I am not saying that no AP focuses on memorization and only covers the material superficially, but I am saying that that has not been our experience.

 

I have found that the AP courses actually do cover the material in the way I like. The courses do emphasize dealing with huge amounts of material, but they also emphasize assimilating knowledge quickly, writing lots of essays, dealing with primary source material, and learning the "grammar" of the subject at hand.

 

I particularly value the emphasis on writing responses quickly. This skill has proved invaluable to my kids at college!

 

If your goals don't line up with the AP scope and sequence, don't go the AP route. But do investigate the AP scopes and sequence for each course. When I did, I was really impressed with not only with the material covered but also the way that the material was covered.

 

Also, not all AP courses are particularly geared to the test. One child's AP Lit class was totally focused on test prep, but the same child's AP Latin Vergil course was basically a in-depth study of Vergil's Aeneid with a token nod in about mid-April that there was an AP exam approaching. Especially with a course like AP English Literature where the book selections are up to the teacher, you can approach the course in myriad different ways.

 

Agreeing with this. My dd found her prep for the APs helped to solidify and reinforce her already-gained knowledge.

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I think I can understand your frustration with APs a bit. I have a love-hate relationship with AP classes. I would not say that APs require a focus on memorization nor a superficial treatment of the subject area, based on my limited experience. I taught APUSGov a couple of years ago and it required an indepth understanding of the Constitution, the relationship between the branches of government, institutions that influence politics and political culture. It was anything but superficial. Same experience with APBio and Macroeconomics.

 

There is a bit of teaching to the test. It probably varies from teacher to teacher, but based on comments on the APUSGOV list serve, it appears that most AP teachers are trying to predict what will be on the test, teach to that material and adequately prepare their students for the AP exam. That's not necessarily bad in and of itself.

 

It can limit, however, spending time on topics outside of the AP designated topics. In my class, I found myself plowing through material like a freight train when I really wanted to have more Socratic discussions with the luxury of pulling the material out of the students, rather than lecturing. I was limited by a once-a-week class and the need to finish the required material. But was the material superficial? Not at all; in so many ways that would take too much time to detail.

 

The problem -- as I see it -- and to the extent that it's a problem at all -- is that by high school, I can no longer concentrate solely on educating my child. Because they want to go to college, and that entails funding and scholarships and entrance requirements, I have to ensure that there is some objective measurement of what they are doing in high school. On top of that, there are some subjects I just can't teach. I could never have done justice to an advanced biology course. AP biology fit the bill for my son. It was a *ton* of work, but in the end he earned an objective A in the class and a 4 on the exam. In the same way, I would be unable to teach my dd AP Latin, so I hope to outsource that. AP is one way to do that.

 

Going back to teaching --

Lisa

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It can limit, however, spending time on topics outside of the AP designated topics. In my class, I found myself plowing through material like a freight train when I really wanted to have more Socratic discussions with the luxury of pulling the material out of the students, rather than lecturing. I was limited by a once-a-week class and the need to finish the required material. But was the material superficial? Not at all; in so many ways that would take too much time to detail.

 

This is one issue I have with the whole program: that the focus is on teacher input of material with little to no time for extended discussion or going above and beyond the prescribed curriculum (at least in the more test-focused classes).

 

There is a fascinating book about Whitman High School, probably the premier public high school on the West coast -- I can't find the book on my shelves at the moment so don't know the exact title. It follows the senior year of a handful of students. Their AP physics instructor decided to do an experiment in one of his classes for six weeks out of the year, having kids do a hands-on investigation and project instead of following the AP course proper. The kids were required to develop and refine an Alka-Selzer rocket to the point that they could be given an amount of water and a hula hoop placed at random somewhere in the gymnasium; they then had to calculate how much Alka-Selzer to put in, what angle to launch the rocket, and had to get it to land inside the hula hoop. They also had to give a presentation with the mathematics they had worked out for this. The evaluators were five people from local tech companies.

 

All of the kids said this was much, much harder than the textbook/canned lab demo route; nearly all of them spent lunch hours and after-school time with the teacher trying to figure out how to refine their models or do the calculations. But the real surprise was that the four brightest kids in the class -- at least brightest in the conventional educational setting -- couldn't do the work. They were totally unable to translate what was in the text to a real-world project outside it. They could have taken that section of the AP test and aced it (the book doesn't say, but they probably did just that); but they couldn't figure out even the most elementary parts of this project. They were really good at understanding how tests worked, at memorizing, working pre-made problems set in front of them, and writing essays. But they were so entrenched in this mode -- partly as a result of taking a course load that was mostly AP classes -- that they no longer could work outside it.

 

I am not saying that all kids are like this, or that all AP classes create this kind of text-bound learning. But the more emphasis that is placed on tests and test scores, strategies for raising scores, test-taking skills, memorization of facts for the multiple choice questions, and racking up the APs for college applications, the more the results tilt this way.

 

For me, homeschooling is like the intellectual equivalent of slow food: it's slowing down, emphasizing process, making learning sociable and enjoyable, creating a world in which flexibility of thought plays a central role. APs go for speed (the freight train in the above quote) and for one kind of learning at the expense of all others. I applaud people who can select a few choice AP classes without getting sucked into the whole AP frenzy, its mindset and pace. I just find it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff here and appreciate the distinctions some of you have made between the quality and content of different classes. For some reason, although I'm not usually an either-or, good-bad kind of thinker, I find myself falling into that when I consider APs, because usually it's not in terms of whether one class might be useful or of interest, but the entire AP machine and its cultural baggage I keep butting up against and resisting.

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There is a fascinating book about Whitman High School, probably the premier public high school on the West coast -- I can't find the book on my shelves at the moment so don't know the exact title.

 

 

 

If you find the title of this book, I would like to know it!

 

Thanks,

Karen

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It's not The Overachievers, which is, confusingly, about a school of the same name as the book I remember, which was about Whitman High in California. I'm still looking...

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We have decided not to have our dc do AP tests. My oldest (attended ps) took ALL AP classes and therefore, was required by her school to take AP tests.

 

She passed some, didn't pass some, got some college credit and moved on.

 

I think she would have been better off taking the classes in college rather than placing out of them. They were taught in one semester block scheduling chunks and the kids were rushed, rushed, rushed!!!

 

In the end, she only got a few credits out of it and doesn't remember anything from the classes. And, as a result, she had to take harder classes in college right off the bat rather than getting to settle in with her freshman classes. Fine for some, but I think my dd would have benefitted greatly by just taking the freshman level classes.

 

Other than saving a bit of college tuition, I don't see the merit in them anymore. Especially now that EVERYONE in ps takes AP classes. There's a real push for the districts to get as many kids to take the AP classes as possible because they get extra funding from the state. A teacher friend says the AP classes are what used to be regular classes (back in my day). Nowadays, the "regular" classes at high school are a joke. They are definitely not for average students...more for the "I don't care" crowd. At least in our area.

 

Might be different in other areas. Just our experience.

Robin

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Other than saving a bit of college tuition, I don't see the merit in them anymore. Especially now that EVERYONE in ps takes AP classes. There's a real push for the districts to get as many kids to take the AP classes as possible because they get extra funding from the state. A teacher friend says the AP classes are what used to be regular classes (back in my day). Nowadays, the "regular" classes at high school are a joke. They are definitely not for average students...more for the "I don't care" crowd. At least in our area.

 

Might be different in other areas. Just our experience.

Robin

 

According to my sister and BIL, who teach at a major university, many universities are ceasing to accept APs for anything other than "huh, you took AP classes" for exactly this reason.

 

Additionally, the universities want the kids to be molded into their specific dogma. Majoring in English? You start with State U's English 101, so that you know their system. Biology? Same thing.

 

There is also a movement towards ditching the SATs in favor of extended applications with longer essays and more recommendations for pretty much the same reason - they are seeing the multi-million (billion?) dollar industry to push test scores higher and higher, but they aren't seeing kids who know how to think. Yes, everyone wants tuition money, but the better universities want a high graduation rate, and they aren't getting it with kids who know how to test but not how to think.

 

 

a

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I am following this thread with great interest.

 

Having taken some APs in high school myself, I can say that I had some very good classes, the best parts of which were a) being required to finish the entire book so that I would know all the history covered on the exam (in most classes, one never gets to the end of the book), and b) I did an enormous amount of writing. Those, I think, are worthwhile goals in any class.

 

I also think their widespread popularity diminishes their "wow, you're exceptional" factor.

 

I wrote a letter to the organization that runs the APs complaining about their cost and how they were scheduled when I was in 11th grade. I didn't think it was particularly great that I had to take AP exams on consecutive days and suggested an alternate schedule. At least they wrote back to thank me for writing. Sigh.

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My ds's high school PUSHES AP and honor classes BIG time! They get no aid from the state - just bragging rights. My ds's honor classes are HARD enough! I DON'T want him in AP classes! Yes, I understand that his school is all about high academic standards and that's why we send him there but it's just too much pressure to be at the upper level.

 

What happens to the joy of learning when there is SO much pressure? :glare:

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For me, homeschooling is like the intellectual equivalent of slow food: it's slowing down, emphasizing process, making learning sociable and enjoyable, creating a world in which flexibility of thought plays a central role. APs go for speed (the freight train in the above quote) and for one kind of learning at the expense of all others. I applaud people who can select a few choice AP classes without getting sucked into the whole AP frenzy, its mindset and pace. I just find it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff here and appreciate the distinctions some of you have made between the quality and content of different classes. For some reason, although I'm not usually an either-or, good-bad kind of thinker, I find myself falling into that when I consider APs, because usually it's not in terms of whether one class might be useful or of interest, but the entire AP machine and its cultural baggage I keep butting up against and resisting.

 

:iagree: I really couldn't say it better myself. Thank you all for your very thoughtful perspectives. It's clear that as we all have different children with different goals, we are carefully tailoring our children's homeschool journey to match these goals. Isn't homeschooling wonderful?

 

Yolanda

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We have by passed the AP stuff.... with oldest ..so far - he is graduating this year. My reasoning - I didn't want to have to find a school who would allow him in for testing. It was my preference to work with colleges as opposed to high schools. Perhaps I would have felt differently if I had a high school that was homeschool friendly in my area.

 

As it has turned out, he took several SAT 2s with great success which seemed to satisfy college applications. He has been told by several of the colleges where he has applied/accepted that there are opportunities to test out (and he will be given the course credits) of several freshman level courses at no cost to him which he is planning on doing in math and computer science. His SAT CR/WR scores will allow him to skip the whole year of freshman English, if he ends up at the state college (his fallback school). He has participated in other activities such as math competitions and an internship with a small engineering company that has helped to show his understanding of certain material at a level you don't get in a classroom situation (plus a reference to that fact by the CEO). So for this student, the lack of APs has definitely not hurt him. His internship is definitely a blessing.

 

Additionally, I am okay if the beginning of his college career contains a couple of easy classes for him. He will have a bit of breathing room to adjust to college life before taking all upper level college courses. We are pleased with this son's homeschool years.

Edited by Susie-Knits
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What happens to the joy of learning when there is SO much pressure? :glare:

 

I read a very sad story about a woman who at one time was dean of admissions at Stanford. Her daughter took her French AP exam, came home, and said, "Now I never ever have to look at or speak a word of French again."

 

Her mother was so horrified that she started to propose reforms in how Stanford dealt with weighted grade point averages and AP classes; but apparently she retired and they haven't followed through.

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A different point of view here -- My kids' AP classes have served to wet their appetites for more.

 

Ds spent the summer after taking AP economics reading all kinds of economics books. he wasn't particularly interested in econ before he took the class, but he is now an econ major.

 

Dd has not used her Latin after the AP Vergil test, but she has mentioned repeatedly how she is amazed at how often her strong background in Vergil has helped her with obscure references.

 

Dd feels that her previous lit work had not left her feeling competent to analyze lit yet, but that the AP lit class cemented that skill.

 

I could go on. Ds was delighted that he fulfilled his college's science requirement by getting a 5 on his AP chem exam, but he enjoyed the chem class and enjoys talking chemistry with his sister, a chem major.

 

Do AP students sometimes get sick and tired of a subject? Absolutely -- but so do non-AP students!

 

My kids LOVED the challenge of their AP classes. The rigor of the classes did not turn them off the subjects but served as a launching board into their college studies.

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I read a very sad story about a woman who at one time was dean of admissions at Stanford. Her daughter took her French AP exam, came home, and said, "Now I never ever have to look at or speak a word of French again."

 

Her mother was so horrified that she started to propose reforms in how Stanford dealt with weighted grade point averages and AP classes; but apparently she retired and they haven't followed through.

 

Wow. My dd is planning to take the French AP in May, but not so she can never have to look at or speak a word of French again, but rather so she can start her college career with some credits under her belt and hopefully place at a higher level.

 

Why is AP seen as differently from taking dual credit or a self-study course?

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Why is AP seen as differently from taking dual credit or a self-study course?

 

Certain colleges raised red flags on AP more than a decade ago. I remember hearing on NPR a discussion of the AP Calculus exam by Ivy League profs. One of the issues that they had with the test at that point was the emphasis on multiple choice or algorithm kinds of questions--no proofs. Many college calculus courses have students find limits using the epsilon/delta method, for example. This does not appear on the AP exam.

 

Here was my problem with AP Bio: college credit (amounting to one or two semesters of biology depending on the college) cooks down to a single three hour exam. This to me is just not realistic. Never in my college career did I have credit for a course boil down to one three-hour exam. (I have had final exams worth 50% of my grade--never more.)

 

I hang out with a number of biology profs. Most of them find the required 12 labs of AP Bio to be very restrictive. While a syllabus may dictate the content of a college course, there is usually some leeway which allows a prof to connect some content with his field of expertise. One of my friends is a retired high school bio teacher. He was appalled by the 12 labs. He had to spend so much time on these that he could not teach the interesting labs that he had developed in decades of teaching.

 

Throughout this school year, I have been tutoring a girl taking AP Calc. Her teacher is completely unqualified to teach this course. She must have a BS in math but she does not understand Calculus. I cannot imagine anyone at a community college with a master's degree or PhD in mathematics being so frightfully ignorant! That is another argument against AP: are all of the teacher's sufficiently qualified in the discipline to teach a post-secondary course in the subject? (Counterargument: I have heard some say that high school teachers are more qualified than TAs who teach these basic courses at some universities.)

 

For us, AP was not the be all and the end all. Nor was CC. Maybe the third time (a good LAC) will be the charm.

 

Jane

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For us, AP was not the be all and the end all. Nor was CC. Maybe the third time (a good LAC) will be the charm.

 

Jane

 

I realize my dd's experience is different because she's never taken an AP class per se, only done self-study and taken the exams. Well, her Calculus class is supposed to be preparing for the AP test, but her teacher's details regarding the exam is so full of holes (like the highest grade is a 6 :glare:).

 

And I'm so sure the LAC is the right thing for my dd - not predicting her success at all, just that she'll be most likely to succeed in a small class size with the attention of the profs (vs. TAs).

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Well...here's my experience:

 

My high school teacher nearly had a mental breakdown during my AP Calculus class. He was not qualified. I think he was a theater major? He was the best qualified math teacher at my school and taught all the advanced classes.

 

I had a TA (PhD student) for an upper division analysis (=calculus) class, and he was extremely qualified and comfortable with the material.

 

And in my AP chemistry class, my school district had no funds so I had to buy the text and all chemicals myself. We had a very poorly equipped lab, complete with a contaminated water supply.

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this is probably why my dd felt her AP classes were not quality classes.

 

Dad had to re-teach her math lessons each evening.

 

Her AP Pre-Calc teacher would regularly tell the class she would have to check with her husband on certain problems and she would have answers to their questions the next day!!!

 

Robin

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my dd only had a couple of good, quality AP teachers. The rest were not really qualified to teach the advanced level courses, but were given the task nonetheless.

 

You are lucky that your dc have had success with their AP courses. I guess it depends on where you live and how the school determines who is qualified...or not.

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interesting find...my son wants to go to Georgetown (at least that is what he says this week :)), so I was cruising their website. They mentioned AP classes but the real stress was on SAT IIs- they require 3 SAT IIs for admission! This is for everyone, not just homeschoolers. Don't know about other colleges, but i will definitely be trying to find out. I think this is probably the route we will go, even if he changes his mind about where he wants to go to college.

hth

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No AP for us. My kids take community college classes instead. Why spend a year preparing for a test to prove you can handle college material, when you can just take the college class itself?

 

(Not trying to argue with anyone who likes APs, but that's our perspective.)

 

Well, theoretically, you spend the year taking a free public school offered AP class instead of the college class *because it's free. You then are proffered the possibility of college credit through the test which costs considerably less than the cost of those three credit hours at an actual college.

 

I actually very much agree with you, and I think cc classes are the route we'll be taking as opposed to AP. I just thought I'd offer a possible to answer to your question.

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Another possible reason is that the AP classes are at a higher level here, material-wise, than some of the CC classes. It depends on the class. (I'm not knocking the CC. It is very variable, as I think it should be, and geared towards what the student population of the CC needs. Many of those nursing students from Haiti need good science classes and composition classes that are more geared towards ESL students.) (And I offer this as a theoretical reason, also, since we are going the CC route.) Another possible reason would be that an AP class might offer more guidance on organization, studying, etc., since it is geared towards high school students, especially at the beginning of the year, rather than being aimed at college students who are well versed in how college classes differ from regular high school classes. In a good AP class, I would imagine the differences are at least mentioned. Another is that the student population is rather different in both types of classes. A parent might prefer that their student not go to school with older students. And another is that colleges can compare AP classes across the country by using the AP test, where they may not be able to compare a CC class in Michigan with one in California, especially if the college is located in North Carolina.

-Nan

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I took AP English in high school long ago and never took the test since the college I went to didn't give credit for it. It was a rigorous class. Then when my son was in high school, I was hearing from PS parents about their kids AP English class- writing college application essays. NOt the same thing at all. Then I saw a report in my local paper with the numbrs of kid getting each score in each test. THe scores were abysmal. Made me think that even though the school may be offering AP courses, the kids are not learning enough.

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If I learned anything this year, it's that there is not one perfect path through high school to college. There just isn't. Every single option has advantages and disadvantages. I used to think there was a *better* way to do high school. But I've seen so many kids do well by making different choices than we did. And I am directing my next two dc in some different choices than my oldest based on their goals. Each parent has different competencies to teach at home; outsourced classes vary widely as do community colleges classes and AP offerings and homegrown studies.

 

The beauty is -- we can now cherry pick the path that is best for our child! I love seeing the variety of two-day schools, online courses, new curricula, and new extracurricular activities that continue to spring up for homeschoolers. Yea us! AP classes will always be a mixed bag depending on the class, teacher, student, testing experience, student's goals, college choice.

 

Lisa

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