Need help with consequences

[Natalieclare]

I haven't read every single reply to your post yet, but has anyone suggested a good conversation with your son? Have you sat down and asked him if he is aware of what's going on inside his endearing little head? Could you point out the recent trend and see if he can think of anything that is bugging him?

 

Another little idea: How about a simple (frequent, proactive) reminder about the golden rule? I'd kind of forgotten about how effective it can be to talk about the golden rule. But lately we've been having our dd ask the question, would I like someone to do that to me? It seems to be bearing good fruit.

[Ginger]

Julie,

I think what Joanne is saying (I may be wrong here, but this is what I'm getting from her posts) is that she can help you, but if you want specifics, you need to become her client.

 

I have a 7 yo son who would do the same things you described your son as doing. And I have also wanted to know exactly how to handle willfull disobedience. I feel like I have tried every approach with him. If i ask him to go to time out, or try to remove him from a situaion. He'll flat out tell me "NO" with the most horrible look in his eyes. Any attempts to disclipine him are met with defiance. I've tacked on days and days on being grounded -so many that he must be grounded until he is 30.

And time and time again during morning devotions he'll plug his ears. I'm not going to get into all the details. My best luck has been with prayer.

I'm hoping to get some ideas from these posts, too.

[Joanne]

I think what Joanne is saying (I may be wrong here, but this is what I'm getting from her posts) is that she can help you, but if you want specifics, you need to become her client.

 

Actually, no. I was responding to the filter through which she assumes my approach is 1) permissive 2) works only with compliant children. I was trying to say that my approach has worked, across the board, for every child I've worked with and every family I've had as clients.

 

I've freely given advice on this board and others. I *do* now get paid for it. I don't think Julie agrees a non punitive approach is a match for her family, so that's why I'll not spend a lot of time in this thread going there.

[Julie in Austin]

Joanne wrote, "I don't think Julie agrees a non punitive approach is a match for her family, so that's why I'll not spend a lot of time in this thread going there."

 

Not sure where you got that idea. I've asked you repeatedly to give me some ideas about direct disobedience and you haven't. If the reason is because you don't want to give away something that you charge for, I completely understand that. However, it strikes me as . . . not sure what word I am looking for here . . . to get into a conversation where the OP asks for ideas and make lots and lots of comments if you aren't willing to give ideas. You've been very free in labeling my behavior (and I can't say that I disagree with those labels) and telling me that what I've done is wrong. But I already knew all that--that's why I posted--for ideas. If you were never willing to offer ideas, I'm not at all clear on why you entered the conversation.

[Mekanamom]

Does your son like Harry Potter? I've set up a system loosely based on the point system in the series. So far, it has worked very well. (It would work even without the Harry Potter reference, but for my youngest it really helped to see how it worked in the story before starting at home.)

 

Here is an old blog post I wrote about it.

 

(Oh, we finally settled on $5.00 as their reward for earning all their chips. If they do all their chores and don't lose any chips for bad behavior, they could earn up to $5.00 every week. At this point in time, they are getting their $5.00 every 2-4 weeks.)

 

As far as immediate consequences... when my youngest has acted up during 4-H meetings, her punishment is being made to sit on my lap or hold my hand until she can behave. She hates being treated like a "baby". I tell her when she can behave like a 7 year old, she doesn't have to be treated like a little kid. Sometimes it works. Other times, we've had to leave. (Or at least wait outside until she can either re-join the group or until her sisters are ready to leave.)

 

We've been using the chip system for a while now, though, and usually all I have to do is tell them, "You've just lost one chip. Do you want to lose more?" and they (usually) settle down.

 

The great thing about it is that they can see very concretely how bad behavior removes the rewards they've previously earned for the good things they've done. And they can also see how good behavior and hard work adds up and brings rewards...

 

Edited to add: The kids can earn chips for both chores and for excellent behavior. We use Motivated Moms as our chore chart, and they get a certain number of chips for each job they do. They also are rewarded for random acts of kindness or thoughtfulness or compassion... but not if they ask "Hey, can I get a chip for that?" LOL.

[Peela]

I haven't read all the responses, but I read the first page.

My approach to discipline, which I learned from my dh, is punishment needs to be immediate. I have learned how much better it is on my heart connection with my children when things are dealt with swiftly and cleanly, so that we can all move on. No hours in the bathroom, no future loss of screen time past today....immediate, sometimes apparently severe consequence. It has to end soon, so that the child can feel sorry and move on and feel forgiven, otherwise it breeds bitterness, resentment and bad feelings in the whole household but in your own heart, and in the child's. I cannot imagine having to harden my heart to punish a child weeks after an incident.

I also have a must attend Scouts policy, because my 12yo son would rather play with the boys on the street or play computer games, and neither are a good substitute for Scouts and the discipline he learns there. However, I would never have put him in at age 6. Not that you can here. 6 is little. I just wouldnt push it at that age. However, if you must, I would do what others have suggested and reward him for classes he is not kicked out of.

My son drives me crazy..he is in his room now for speaking to me disrespectfully. But it will be over in a few minutes and he will get a chance to start fresh.

[Stacia]

I feel that kids need careful, ongoing teaching/training in these matters. They need conversations about how unkind it would be to make a speaker feel they were boring you or that you were not interested; about how unkind it would be to disrupt someone else's pleasure in a performance, or to interfere with someone's concentration while they are daavening(praying).

 

We set clear, very specific guidelines as to what "good" audience behavior looks like - and, for little ones, we review it every time before they will be called on to

In a more general context, I have worked to teach them, from a very young age, how to behave properly in public... but I have also worked hard to set them up to succeed...to not overtax their developmental capacities.

 

You've already gotten lots of advice & I probably don't have much to add, but Eliana's post sounds similar to things I would have said. I've spent a lot of time teaching, and teaching, and teaching, how to behave properly, whether it's to a formal outing (such as a show) or to something more casual (playing at a friend's house), to something as simple -- but critical -- as a habit of why you wear your seatbelt every time. And, I think what has made it succeed in our house is that I've usually tried to provide the *why* when explaining it to my children -- in a way that makes the why understandable by them & relevant to their world. So, behavior doesn't become a thing where 'I have to just because mom said I have to', it's something they can grasp as 'I have to because mom said I have to AND I should anyway becuase I know it's rude, or might hurt my friend, or it's unsafe & that driver might not see me, or my teammates are depending on me to help play the game, or (whatever the reasoning in that situation would be)....'

 

My kids are 6 & 9 & I still explain & review stuff like this all the time, esp. when we're in the car on the way somewhere. It's a great time to review the behavior that is expected & that you expect them to be the best they can be.

 

It all pays off, though. We just got back from a wonderful, week-long vacation overseas. And, it was so relaxing & fun -- all of us had a great time. When we got back, dh & I were saying that all those years of training have now paid off. The kids behaved wonderfully, even under some less than ideal conditions (flying overnight, wearing your drink on the plane :001_huh:, being tired & in a new place, different foods, etc...). I know parents often don't feel like they're on a vacation during a vacation (because it's often so much more work in a way), but this time we really reaped the dividends. I at least like to think a large part of it was all the investment of training, though I'm sure luck played it's part too. ;)

 

I hope my rambling makes sense, lol!

 

You can do it! Hang in there. Parenting -- it's not just a job, it's an adventure. (haha)

[bkpan]

Hey Julie, now that you've described your Scout situation, I do have an idea. I've only used this once (when ds refused to go to TKD and dd went) but it worked pretty well. I did math fact drill with him for the whole 30 minutes. Substitute whatever your ds will find boring and a bit of work and make that his choice. Do scouts cheerfully and respectfully or sit with mom on this bench and do XXX. You'll either have a happy scout or a kid who KNOWS his math facts, phonograms, cursive, etc.

 

ITA!

 

Kim in TN (used to be in NV)

[WTMindy]

Actually, no. I was responding to the filter through which she assumes my approach is 1) permissive 2) works only with compliant children. I was trying to say that my approach has worked, across the board, for every child I've worked with and every family I've had as clients.

 

I've freely given advice on this board and others. I *do* now get paid for it. I don't think Julie agrees a non punitive approach is a match for her family, so that's why I'll not spend a lot of time in this thread going there.

 

Joanne, I am not reading Julie's posts the way you are. I have read a true cry for help and advice from you, because she respects your methods. She even went to your website. I have always appreciated your parenting advice, but it seems to me that you are not reading Julie correctly.

 

I can fully understand why you might not want to give for free what you do for a living. That is totally understandable, but from your responses and tone to Julie it seems that you are mis-reading her.

 

Of course, I could be way off here, but that is just my opinion as I read these posts.

[Pink Fairy]

Wow. I am amazed at both the kindness and wisdom of some moms, and the "unkindness and harshness" of others. It takes guts to open yourself up to people when there will always be someone who immediately goes for the jugular because she is an "expert."

 

Sorry, but I am annoyed on your behalf. Even good advice is ruined when it's delivered it in a snotty, know-it-all tone.:ack2:

[Twinmom]

Julie, I just wanted to let you know that others have BTDT and lived through it (I have a strong willed 8 yr DD!l)…parenting a strong willed child isn‘t for the faint hearted! I admire your willingness to put it out there and ask for help...that takes courage, esp. in the face of blunt criticism! I feel for you. I can recall a few situations at our house that sound a lot like the one you had with your son. Whew...I hate those!

 

Don't have any profound advice for you, but did want to say that I admire your attempts to stick to your guns over the defiance. That said, I'll also add that with my strong willed kiddo, direct confrontation has failed every time. I've basically learned that I have to deflect the fight to win. What I mean is, since I know she can and will outlast me, I win by not letting the fight begin. Basically, I give her consequences but don't give her the reaction she wants...and I no longer "stack" the consequences because she wins when I engage in that way (and, I can't really follow through anyway when they get too deep!).

 

For example, if DD had pulled what your son did, I'd have pulled her into the hall and told her what behavior needed to change. If she'd have refused or been otherwise outright defiant, I'd tell her what the consequence was (for her, loss of TV privileges or picking up after her little brothers is the end of the world! :lol:). Then, I'd have immediately removed her from the scene (anticipating the flip-out!) and placed her in the car/the hall/the yard or whatever to wait out the scout meeting w/o disruption. I'd have let the others stay, even if it meant asking another mom to watch them. I'd have then promptly ignored everything else DD had to say or do until she was cooperative. She absolutely cannot stand it when I won't fight back, so this just drives her nuts. I will tell her that I'll speak with her when she is ready to calm down and accept her consequences, but there's no other talking from me! Usually her mouth gets worse before it gets better, so my routine is to ignore any back talk, etc. and act like I don't hear her.

 

After we are home and/or she's calmed down (which she always does now with a little age and maturity), I will sit her down and talk about what she should have done differently, what I consider appropriate behavior, etc. I don't take away the original consequence, even after the inevitable apology comes. (She'd earned it by her original defiance, after all.) I will say that I'm sad for her that she chose a consequence instead of obedience...but I try to keep it all in her lap and remind her that next time, she'll need to learn to control herself better in order to avoid an unpleasant end result.

 

Most of the time, I get a decent end result with this approach...but there are always those moments! I pm'd you with a bit more info that I also hope is useful.

 

Hang in there!

[Julie in Austin]

Thanks for the latest batch of comments!

 

Twinmom, I really like your ideas. And, uh, at the risk of exposing my ignorance, what is "pm"?

[dangermom]

Private Message. Look up at the top right corner of your screen, under where it says "Welcome, Julie in Austin."

[Catherine]

stay very close to him during the meeting, so that you can see exactly what he is doing. IMO, you will have to give something up, in order to handle this, and IMO again, find another place for the 3 yo. Your six yo needs your attention in the situation and a 3 yo's social life may have to suffer a bit to achieve this.

 

Rehearse behavior scenarios ahead of time. Describe what may happen and go over how it should be handled, and how he should NOT handle it.

 

If an absolute need exists to correct him at the meeting, take him aside and tell him what to do, plain and simple. If he absolutely refuses, stop his life and all enjoyment of the meeting until he does what he's been told. If he chooses to miss the entire meeting, I think you may have learned something important.

 

I think that, and I mean this respectfully, you are feeling overwhelmed and perhaps, outmatched by committments? I say this because the tone of your message seems to suggest you feel unable to change anything about the situation (because of other children, because scouts has to be a part of his homeschooling) and this in and of itself is a terrible feeling. But when things are calm, think carefully about whther there really is nothing at all that can be changed. Maybe it can be after all, and your life can be easier.

 

Just some words of advice, and I hope, support from another mom of a challenging 6 yo!

[Joanne]

I owe you an apology for my tone in the thread you originated. It was uncalled for. I was in a bad "space" and I took it out on your (and a couple of other) threads.

 

I am apologizing here because I was rude in public, not in PM. ;)

 

I hope that you can forgive me.

 

I do know we approach parenting from different perspectives. Although it may seem as though my kids are compliant, I want you to know that if you remain interested, I do have resources and personal experience for parenting a strong willed or spirited child. I'd be happy to share them mom to mom. :)

[Julie in Austin]

Joanne, I didn't see your response until now (I wasn't ignoring you.). I appreciate and accept your apology.

[Joanne]

Joanne, I didn't see your response until now (I wasn't ignoring you.). I appreciate and accept your apology.

 

Thank you for your gracious response! I was wondering why this got bumped up.

 

I hope things are well for you!

[Rosie_0801]

Two thoughts:

1. Send him to a different scout group. One without female leaders if there is such thing anymore. In my opinion, boys don't learn the things scouting was designed to teach them with females around.

 

2. This may be offensive, but is not designed to be! I've been a leader so I'm viewing the problem from a leader's point of view. Stay away from scouts. The group belongs to the kids and the leaders, not the parents. The parents have the right to expect safety and caring, but not much more. They don't pay the leaders. The leaders are not employees of anyone, it's voluntary. In my opinion, a troop does not benefit from more than the occasional invited visit from parents. You homeschool. Take the opportunity to leave the kids at scouts and snooze for that hour and a half! That incident was the leaders' business to deal with as they saw fit. Scouts is not home, and the rules are different. Just like the rules are different at grandma's house. Scouts is not school either. Only leaders who are parents or teachers expect kids to sit quietly and listen. I was a leader in a very well behaved guide group, and am rather on the strict side, however I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at your son sticking his fingers in his ears. (Throwing sand, definately!) It's his business whether he wants to listen or not.

 

I would talk to the leaders about your son, express your concern that he isn't behaving appropriately, and take their word for it when they say he's fine. I'd talk to your son, explain that you want him to continue to go to scouts and that you'd like him to remember his manners while he is there; but you aren't going to go anymore because you think he'll enjoy himself more if you don't. I'd bet my bank balance (not much, admittedly) that he'll stop misbehaving within a fortnight of you ceasing to attend. While I was in guides, I must have met hundreds of girls, and bad behaviour almost inevitably disappeared as soon as their parents did. If you are obliged to have an adult attend with him, recruit a grandfather or someone else.

 

From experience, even kids who get along with their parents have trouble relaxing in a scouting setting if their parents are there. Who can relax when Big Brother (or your parents) are watching?

:)

Rosie

[PinkInTheBlue]

I see it as a power struggle and in my house, at that age, it's always important that Mom and Dad win all power struggles. We'll talk later when they are older but when I say something at that age, you'd better listen. The consequences you've chosen are severe but, imo, I think you should stick to them. What Mom says goes. It's terribly rude to sit there with your fingers in your ears, it's complete disobedience to ignore Mom's directions and throwing sand is absolutely out of the question even once.

 

Sorry Mom! ((hugs)) Hang in there. :)