Any unschoolers here?

[8filltheheart]

Reading through this thread made me realize that apparently the definition of unschooling is as ambiguous as the term classical. Unschooling is definitely not a term I would use to describe my educational philosophy at all, yet by the descriptions in this thread it would appear that many would consider my approach, at least prior to high school, as such???:confused: From my perspective, I view fostering learning from interests as a normal educational tool, not as anything unusual. ;)

 

Anyway, I only even read the thread b/c I read the last response by MelanieM. In my family can easily picture both extremes. I have a ds that literally spends hrs doing math b/c he absolutely loves it. He is completely self-motivated and even asked if he could enroll in a math class that will be meeting all summer. Conversely, I have a child that would never do anything academic w/o my requiring it.

[AngelaNYC]

My take is that it is a plain disservice to the child, not to teach them and provide them tools to succeed successfully in this world. It is all very nice to let a child tell you when and what they want to learn, but it just does not cut it in the real world. I love my dh, and want her to have a chance. I won't always be there to take care of her.

 

It really does not matter what career she decides to do, just that she has the chance to do it. I mean, don't we all want our children to be able to go out in the big, blue, world and not feel less then, because they can't keep up w/the kid that did go to that lousy PS? Do I want my child to have to rely on welfare, because it is easier to say; "I just don't feel like doing it today?"

 

Honesty, respect for herself and others is what I want her to accomplish. To stand up and be accounted for when she fails, and to bask in triumph when she succeeds. This only comes from discipline, not beatings or abuse (or lack of direction). But realization that order does exist, and one can accomplish anything given the right tools and willingness to do the hard work. Whether that goal is of becoming a doctor, lawyer, dentist, teacher, therapist, social worker, counselor, etc. Yes, it all takes work.

 

Why should I not help her from the start? That is the very essence of what I found in the WTM, and most of all the people that I know that have succeeded in this very hard and difficult world. My job is to help her in every way possible. Could I just allow her to dictate to me what she would like to learn today? Absolutely not, I'm the MOM, and guess what? She knows she's safe, she knows without a doubt she's loved! Most important of all: she doesn't have to be an adult just yet (plenty of time for that later).

Forevergrace

 

 

Hmm. Nothing in this whole statement shows that you know anything about what unschooling really is. Following what a child is interested in take a helluva lot more effort than any other method. It's all about being so in-tune with your child and providing them with every resource and opportunity to grow. Kids aren't acting as adults. There's plenty of guidance and parental oversight and leadership. Unschoolers just don't have to force their kids to do "work" - the kids gladly do tons. You really should read some unschooler blogs and articles before you jump to conclusions and make very incorrect assumptions. :glare:

[angela in ohio]

Reading through this thread made me realize that apparently the definition of unschooling is as ambiguous as the term classical. Unschooling is definitely not a term I would use to describe my educational philosophy at all, yet by the descriptions in this thread it would appear that many would consider my approach, at least prior to high school, as such???:confused: From my perspective, I view fostering learning from interests as a normal educational tool, not as anything unusual. ;)

 

:iagree:

 

Just like 'Classical,' 'Unschooler' is a popular buzzword.

[Jennefer@SSA]

Hmm. Nothing in this whole statement shows that you know anything about what unschooling really is. Following what a child is interested in take a helluva lot more effort than any other method. It's all about being so in-tune with your child and providing them with every resource and opportunity to grow. Kids aren't acting as adults. There's plenty of guidance and parental oversight and leadership. Unschoolers just don't have to force their kids to do "work" - the kids gladly do tons. You really should read some unschooler blogs and articles before you jump to conclusions and make very incorrect assumptions. :glare:

 

It is sad to say though that unfortunately many who "unschool" use it as an excuse to do "no school" and it has a very bad reputation for that reason. I have read the blogs and articles on unschooling and have often thought that if done right, unschooling would be about the most challenging way of schooling (for the mom). In reality the families I know that unschool actually do little to no school - ever. And their children will most likely suffer for it someday. I wonder if many of the moms I know who unschool have ever really researched unschooling b/c they certainly aren't doing what I have read about and what you describe below:

 

It's all about being so in-tune with your child and providing them with every resource and opportunity to grow. Kids aren't acting as adults. There's plenty of guidance and parental oversight and leadership.

 

This is not to say that someone who claims to be a Classical Homeschooler or a CM'er (pick your method) could use that term and also be doing her children a great inservice. I just think it often tends to be more prevalent with unschoolers - at least in my area this is true.

[AngelBee]

I think sometimes I even made choices that I might not otherwise have made trying to fit into an unschooly mode. There was always this sense of being pc in the unschooling world. Ugh.

Me too.

 

I was way too laid back about certain issues trusting that they would work themselves out when really I needed to set some guidelines.

 

Now I am having to undo my bad habit training. :(

 

However, I TOTALLY support the idea of unschooling. I just do not believe it to be like the extremist view it.

 

For example, my dd3 asked me to start reading. I had NO clue where to start, so I got OPGTTR. We are using the curriculum as she would like to learn her letters.

 

Is that forced academics at too young an age? NO! She asked me to assist her.

 

Is it bad I am using a curriculum? No. I got that to better enable me to guide her.

 

That is following my children's desires.

 

I believe that where the extremists go wrong is focusing on child led. My school is not and will never be child led.

 

We are Lord led. :) We do what pleases the Lord. And next we focus on the family unit. It is not ok to do something that you want at the cost of another. We are a family and we serve one another with love.

 

That sometimes means NOT being led by what you "want" to do in the moment. And that is ok. It also fits just fine into real life Unschooling :D

[AngelBee]

Hmm. Nothing in this whole statement shows that you know anything about what unschooling really is. Following what a child is interested in take a helluva lot more effort than any other method. It's all about being so in-tune with your child and providing them with every resource and opportunity to grow. Kids aren't acting as adults. There's plenty of guidance and parental oversight and leadership. Unschoolers just don't have to force their kids to do "work" - the kids gladly do tons. You really should read some unschooler blogs and articles before you jump to conclusions and make very incorrect assumptions. :glare:

 

I can see your heart as you write. :) You should write more for unschoolers. You seem it really "get it". :grouphug:

 

Your children are lucky to have you as their mama :D

[LittleIzumi]

Me too.

 

I was way too laid back about certain issues trusting that they would work themselves out when really I needed to set some guidelines.

 

Now I am having to undo my bad habit training. :(

 

However, I TOTALLY support the idea of unschooling. I just do not believe it to be like the extremist view it.

 

For example, my dd3 asked me to start reading. I had NO clue where to start, so I got OPGTTR. We are using the curriculum as she would like to learn her letters.

 

Is that forced academics at too young an age? NO! She asked me to assist her.

 

Is it bad I am using a curriculum? No. I got that to better enable me to guide her.

 

That is following my children's desires.

 

I believe that where the extremists go wrong is focusing on child led. My school is not and will never be child led.

 

We are Lord led. :) We do what pleases the Lord. And next we focus on the family unit. It is not ok to do something that you want at the cost of another. We are a family and we serve one another with love.

 

That sometimes means NOT being led by what you "want" to do in the moment. And that is ok. It also fits just fine into real life Unschooling :D

 

How is following your child's desires "not and never will be child led"? I thought they were the same idea?

 

 

 

And as to the older idea of having to force your child to learn, I get on "trouble" here on the WTM boards for trying to teach my dd at her age when she WANTS to be taught. She has already burnt out the batteries in her handheld microscope. If I used a traditional curricula/timeline rather than child-led she would be doing LESS learning, not more.

[AngelBee]

How is following your child's desires "not and never will be child led"? I thought they were the same idea?

 

 

 

And as to the older idea of having to force your child to learn, I get on "trouble" here on the WTM boards for trying to teach my dd at her age when she WANTS to be taught. She has already burnt out the batteries in her handheld microscope. If I used a traditional curricula/timeline rather than child-led she would be doing LESS learning, not more.

 

Sorry....to clarify:

 

Some extremist unschoolers are so child led, that there is no balance in their lives. It is ALL about making sure every whim and thought of the child is explored at that very moment. It seems extremely exhausting. And frankly, with 5 children, impossible.

 

I am not being led around by my children. We are a team that together decide what we are studying and working on. :) Their desires are ALWAYS taken into consideration, but so are mine.

[Jenny in GA]

In reality the families I know that unschool actually do little to no school - ever. And their children will most likely suffer for it someday.

 

 

Yes. (Although the sufferering part is, I suppose, debatable.)

 

I know a LOT about unschooling and the unschooling community.

 

We officially did it for two years (when my oldest was kindy and first grade).

 

I actively participated in several "well-known" unschooling yahoo groups, some of which had over 1,000 members, for over five years.

 

I have several conference CDs from the years of Live and Learn Conferences. Most of those speeches were given by people whose youngest kids were teenagers.

 

I've read three books by unschoolers who are very well-known and respected in the community.

 

Having been very active in that "community" for many years, I can tell you exactly, with great authority, what some of the common mantras of the unschooler is.

 

These are not exaggerations.

These are not or one or two people's ideas.

 

These are exact common statements that, if you disagree on an unschooling group or forum, the list owners and "well knowns" (and pretty much everybody) will adamently explain to you why your viewpoint is contrary to unschooling.

 

Okay, here we go:

 

- People learn a lot from both TV and video games. If that's what truly interests a child, that's what he should spend his time doing -- yes, even if it means playing for 30+ hours a week. Help him achieve his goal by bringing his meals to him while he plays.

 

- Many kids can, and do, lean to read and write from Instant Messaging, e-mailing, and reading the prompts on their video games. This is not a bad thing, but proof of unschooling in action.

 

- Chores should be learned the same way anything else is -- naturally, and in his time. Sure, ask him to help around the house, but always take "no" as a perfectly acceptable answer. Don't be surprised if it takes many years for them to show an interest -- maybe not til they are twelve or thirteen. They eventually will, when they are ready. In the meantime, lower your cleanliness standards and think of cleaning up after him as being a "gift" you are giving.

 

- Don't worry about things like spelling, or handwriting, because most people just use computers with spell-check anyway.

 

- Unschooling means NO rules. (Yes, that is an exact quote from an unschooling list owner.) If you have rules, you are hampering the unschooling process.

 

- Children should learn to listen to their bodies. They should sleep when and where they want. If that means a four year old falling asleep in front of the computer at midnight, that is a good thing. It means they are in tune with what their body needs.

 

- Children should also listen to their bodies when it comes to eating. They should have "complete food freedom." If that means you fixing a meal for your child after midnight, so be it. (Yes, that was an exact example given at a conference.) If they want ice cream for dinner, no problem. They are learning about what their body really craves.

 

 

So ... I guess you can call yourself whatever you want. You can say you unschool, but don't believe any of that.

 

But that is what the vast majority of unschoolers stand firmly by.

 

I have only known one unschooler in real life, and she would agree with the above statements as well. Her kids are almost high school age, and she recently told me that "they can sleep whenever or wherever they want" and that she and her husband had no problem with them playing hours and hours of World of Warcraft every day, if they want. They learn a lot of thinking skills from those games.

 

So ... that's unschooling in action!:001_smile:

[LittleIzumi]

That is why I'm not a *radial unschooler*. We do a lot of unschooling/child-led learning, but I also guide some of it or make dd do at least a little math :tongue_smilie:

 

And IMO, if your kinds can't find anything better to do than video games for weeks on end, they haven't been encouraged enough to truly love learning. I don't think dd would want to play on the computer for more than a day or two before she started running for her library books again.

[Jenny in GA]

That is why I'm not a *radial unschooler*. We do a lot of unschooling/child-led learning, but I also guide some of it or make dd do at least a little math :tongue_smilie:

 

Right. And most unschoolers -- and certainly the high-profile ones would therefore consider you to not be an unschooler.

 

And some would get angry and aggravated that you used the words "unschooling" and "make him do math" in the same sentence.

[lovemykids]

Yes. (Although the sufferering part is, I suppose, debatable.)

 

I know a LOT about unschooling and the unschooling community.

 

We officially did it for two years (when my oldest was kindy and first grade).

 

I actively participated in several "well-known" unschooling yahoo groups, some of which had over 1,000 members, for over five years.

 

I have several conference CDs from the years of Live and Learn Conferences. Most of those speeches were given by people whose youngest kids were teenagers.

 

I've read three books by unschoolers who are very well-known and respected in the community.

 

Having been very active in that "community" for many years, I can tell you exactly, with great authority, what some of the common mantras of the unschooler is.

 

These are not exaggerations.

These are not or one or two people's ideas.

 

These are exact common statements that, if you disagree on an unschooling group or forum, the list owners and "well knowns" (and pretty much everybody) will adamently explain to you why your viewpoint is contrary to unschooling.

 

Okay, here we go:

 

- People learn a lot from both TV and video games. If that's what truly interests a child, that's what he should spend his time doing -- yes, even if it means playing for 30+ hours a week. Help him achieve his goal by bringing his meals to him while he plays.

 

- Many kids can, and do, lean to read and write from Instant Messaging, e-mailing, and reading the prompts on their video games. This is not a bad thing, but proof of unschooling in action.

 

- Chores should be learned the same way anything else is -- naturally, and in his time. Sure, ask him to help around the house, but always take "no" as a perfectly acceptable answer. Don't be surprised if it takes many years for them to show an interest -- maybe not til they are twelve or thirteen. They eventually will, when they are ready. In the meantime, lower your cleanliness standards and think of cleaning up after him as being a "gift" you are giving.

 

- Don't worry about things like spelling, or handwriting, because most people just use computers with spell-check anyway.

 

- Unschooling means NO rules. (Yes, that is an exact quote from an unschooling list owner.) If you have rules, you are hampering the unschooling process.

 

- Children should learn to listen to their bodies. They should sleep when and where they want. If that means a four year old falling asleep in front of the computer at midnight, that is a good thing. It means they are in tune with what their body needs.

 

- Children should also listen to their bodies when it comes to eating. They should have "complete food freedom." If that means you fixing a meal for your child after midnight, so be it. (Yes, that was an exact example given at a conference.) If they want ice cream for dinner, no problem. They are learning about what their body really craves.

 

 

So ... I guess you can call yourself whatever you want. You can say you unschool, but don't believe any of that.

 

But that is what the vast majority of unschoolers stand firmly by.

 

I have only known one unschooler in real life, and she would agree with the above statements as well. Her kids are almost high school age, and she recently told me that "they can sleep whenever or wherever they want" and that she and her husband had no problem with them playing hours and hours of World of Warcraft every day, if they want. They learn a lot of thinking skills from those games.

 

So ... that's unschooling in action!:001_smile:

 

Yeah, wow, just wow. I have read unschooling books and webpages etc. All I can say is; to each his own. When I think of classical "unschooling" it does not resemble any of these statements. I simply believe that children who are motivated, and have an interest in a topic, can teach themselves that subject. How it works across the board, I don't know. ;)

[calandalsmom]

Yes. (Although the sufferering part is, I suppose, debatable.)

 

I know a LOT about unschooling and the unschooling community.

 

We officially did it for two years (when my oldest was kindy and first grade).

 

I actively participated in several "well-known" unschooling yahoo groups, some of which had over 1,000 members, for over five years.

 

I have several conference CDs from the years of Live and Learn Conferences. Most of those speeches were given by people whose youngest kids were teenagers.

 

I've read three books by unschoolers who are very well-known and respected in the community.

 

Having been very active in that "community" for many years, I can tell you exactly, with great authority, what some of the common mantras of the unschooler is.

 

These are not exaggerations.

These are not or one or two people's ideas.

 

These are exact common statements that, if you disagree on an unschooling group or forum, the list owners and "well knowns" (and pretty much everybody) will adamently explain to you why your viewpoint is contrary to unschooling.

 

Okay, here we go:

 

- People learn a lot from both TV and video games. If that's what truly interests a child, that's what he should spend his time doing -- yes, even if it means playing for 30+ hours a week. Help him achieve his goal by bringing his meals to him while he plays.

 

- Many kids can, and do, lean to read and write from Instant Messaging, e-mailing, and reading the prompts on their video games. This is not a bad thing, but proof of unschooling in action.

 

- Chores should be learned the same way anything else is -- naturally, and in his time. Sure, ask him to help around the house, but always take "no" as a perfectly acceptable answer. Don't be surprised if it takes many years for them to show an interest -- maybe not til they are twelve or thirteen. They eventually will, when they are ready. In the meantime, lower your cleanliness standards and think of cleaning up after him as being a "gift" you are giving.

 

- Don't worry about things like spelling, or handwriting, because most people just use computers with spell-check anyway.

 

- Unschooling means NO rules. (Yes, that is an exact quote from an unschooling list owner.) If you have rules, you are hampering the unschooling process.

 

- Children should learn to listen to their bodies. They should sleep when and where they want. If that means a four year old falling asleep in front of the computer at midnight, that is a good thing. It means they are in tune with what their body needs.

 

- Children should also listen to their bodies when it comes to eating. They should have "complete food freedom." If that means you fixing a meal for your child after midnight, so be it. (Yes, that was an exact example given at a conference.) If they want ice cream for dinner, no problem. They are learning about what their body really craves.

 

 

So ... I guess you can call yourself whatever you want. You can say you unschool, but don't believe any of that.

 

But that is what the vast majority of unschoolers stand firmly by.

 

I have only known one unschooler in real life, and she would agree with the above statements as well. Her kids are almost high school age, and she recently told me that "they can sleep whenever or wherever they want" and that she and her husband had no problem with them playing hours and hours of World of Warcraft every day, if they want. They learn a lot of thinking skills from those games.

 

So ... that's unschooling in action!:001_smile:

 

This is consistant with the message I heard at the UWWG. I think the Live and Learn Conference was with the love joys, right? I have to say hers was a talk I appreciated even if I didnt agree with her on some things. I at least appreciated her humour.

[Faithr]

Jenny, that's why it is easier to say 'relaxed' or 'unschoolish' or unschooling tendencies.

 

I remember there was a blogger of a large family. I wish I had kept up with her blog. Anyway she called her style of homeschooling "collaborative learning" She let the young ones be interest led in their learning but as they got older and closer to high school she would sit down and collaborate with them on their learning plans.

 

So maybe those who are attracted and see truth in some of the precepts of unschooling that originated with Holt but are not comfortable with the mind-defying nonsense perpetuated by the RU's (most of them; some of them do manage to do it well without the mental gymnastics of justifying massive amounts of World of Warcraft, etc) should just give up on calling it unschooling and call it relaxed like Mary Hood or collaborative like this other lady whose name I can not remember!

 

Also I think if you have a faith system there are natural perimeters in unschooling that don't allow you to talk yourself into thinking that addictions to vidoegames is somehow educational. I am on a list for Catholic unschoolers and because of our religious beliefs that provides a natural counterbalance to some of the extremes of unschooling.

 

Gotta run!

[AuntPol]

We must be on the same yahoo group, Jenny, as I have read many of those comments on one "well known" group myself. I find myself constantly walking away shaking my head. That site seems to love video-addicted kids. One parent had trouble because her video addicted took up her time because he wanted her to play the game all day with her and it left her no time to go outside or work with other kids. Apparantly, the rights of the video addict to school the way they want overrode the rights of the other children and family members. The solution was for her to get a portable device so she could take the other kids on a walk while she continued playing the game.

Edited February 16, 2010 by AuntPol

[Renee in NC]

Jenny, that's why it is easier to say 'relaxed' or 'unschoolish' or unschooling tendencies.

 

I remember there was a blogger of a large family. I wish I had kept up with her blog. Anyway she called her style of homeschooling "collaborative learning" She let the young ones be interest led in their learning but as they got older and closer to high school she would sit down and collaborate with them on their learning plans.

 

So maybe those who are attracted and see truth in some of the precepts of unschooling that originated with Holt but are not comfortable with the mind-defying nonsense perpetuated by the RU's (most of them; some of them do manage to do it well without the mental gymnastics of justifying massive amounts of World of Warcraft, etc) should just give up on calling it unschooling and call it relaxed like Mary Hood or collaborative like this other lady whose name I can not remember!

 

Also I think if you have a faith system there are natural perimeters in unschooling that don't allow you to talk yourself into thinking that addictions to vidoegames is somehow educational. I am on a list for Catholic unschoolers and because of our religious beliefs that provides a natural counterbalance to some of the extremes of unschooling.

 

Gotta run!

 

Is this it?

 

http://applestars.homeschooljournal.net/category/unschooling/

[AngelBee]

 

And IMO, if your kinds can't find anything better to do than video games for weeks on end, they haven't been encouraged enough to truly love learning. I don't think dd would want to play on the computer for more than a day or two before she started running for her library books again.

 

:iagree:

[Jenny in GA]

This is consistant with the message I heard at the UWWG. I think the Live and Learn Conference was with the love joys, right? I have to say hers was a talk I appreciated even if I didnt agree with her on some things. I at least appreciated her humour.

 

What is UWWG?

 

Yup, Live and Learn was Kelly Lovejoy's baby.

 

Obviously I must have gotten something out of it for me to have stuck around all those years. I think it benefited me some, especially since my kids were very young. Also, we were going through some serious crises at the time, and it was helpful to think my kids my somehow learning and thriving despite schoolish activities.

 

Interestingly, though, I still feel as if I failed, somehow. Many people who strongly espoused the above thoughts claimed they had young adults who were great readers, deep thinkers, helpful with chores, and some even went to college and did quite well. It seems almost hard to believe. So maybe it is a failing on my part.

 

Either way, we are no longer unschoolers and I cannot agree with the statements that the "famous unschoolers" swear worked well for them.

[calandalsmom]

http://www.ugo.unschoolgathering.com/ It says open to relaxed and eclectic but i dont think they meant it.

 

What I dont get is this: why is it necessary to parent their way in order to practice the unschooling style? It seems to me that they are getting TCS (taking children seriously) or consensual living so knotted up with unschooling to such an extent that I can not unravel the two.

[AngelBee]

What is UWWG?

 

Yup, Live and Learn was Kelly Lovejoy's baby.

 

Obviously I must have gotten something out of it for me to have stuck around all those years. I think it benefited me some, especially since my kids were very young. Also, we were going through some serious crises at the time, and it was helpful to think my kids my somehow learning and thriving despite schoolish activities.

 

Interestingly, though, I still feel as if I failed, somehow. Many people who strongly espoused the above thoughts claimed they had young adults who were great readers, deep thinkers, helpful with chores, and some even went to college and did quite well. It seems almost hard to believe. So maybe it is a failing on my part.

 

Either way, we are no longer unschoolers and I cannot agree with the statements that the "famous unschoolers" swear worked well for them.

:grouphug: I too felt I was failing. That is why I am now here :)

[LittleIzumi]

Right. And most unschoolers -- and certainly the high-profile ones would therefore consider you to not be an unschooler.

 

And some would get angry and aggravated that you used the words "unschooling" and "make him do math" in the same sentence.

 

Hence my relaxed/eclectic tag in my siggy, not unschooling--the idea of not teaching children responsibility and to help out and that at least sometimes you have to do things that you don't like for the greater good is just... well, radical :lol: to me.

[Faithr]

Oh Renee! Thank you so much! That is the blog! How clever of you to have recognized it from my very rushed description!

[MissKNG]

I am definitely not an unschooler but I'm trying to work on recognizing my big girl's "unschooling" learning activities in order to use them when I have to report hours. For example, the other day, all on her own, she got out her Peter Rabbit lap book and proceeded to tell me about every little activity pasted in it. Then she popped in her "Rev Up for Arithmetic" CDROM and worked on that....total time for both activites about 30 minutes.

[Renee in NC]

Oh Renee! Thank you so much! That is the blog! How clever of you to have recognized it from my very rushed description!

 

If I could get paid for my google skills, I would be rich.;) I read a little bit of it - I like her style (I had never seen it before.)

[woolybear]

:grouphug: I too felt I was failing. That is why I am now here :)

 

 

Yes, after I awhile I knew I was "failing" at unschooling. Worse than that, though, is when I felt I was succeeding at unschooling I knew I was failing my son.:sad:

[woolybear]

 

I remember there was a blogger of a large family. I wish I had kept up with her blog. Anyway she called her style of homeschooling "collaborative learning" She let the young ones be interest led in their learning but as they got older and closer to high school she would sit down and collaborate with them on their learning plans.

 

 

I like this. I'm going to give this some more thought and also take a look at her blog. thank you.

[Sue G in PA]

Turning out to be a great thread! Thanks everyone. The way I see it...my ds8 cannot be forced to do school. I can punish him, give rewards, take away privileges...and we can all be miserable. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. So, we have had to change our ways a bit around here. Unschooling or relaxed schooling or ecclectic or whatever you want to call it is working here. This child is like a sponge...he picks things up quickly...DVDs, books, TV, games, conversation, etc. The academics that he doesn't mind doing, we do. Those that he fights me on...we find other ways to accomplish the task. Math is the big fight these days. So, I'm pulling together a bunch of math games to accomplish what he should be doing in Singapore. So far, so good.

[Jenny in GA]

http://www.ugo.unschoolgathering.com/ It says open to relaxed and eclectic but i dont think they meant it.

 

What I dont get is this: why is it necessary to parent their way in order to practice the unschooling style? It seems to me that they are getting TCS (taking children seriously) or consensual living so knotted up with unschooling to such an extent that I can not unravel the two.

 

 

Actually I remember on the unschooling boards, many people said they did not like TCS.

 

Here's the spiel as I remember it:

 

In unschooling, learning is life. How do you separate the two?

 

You can't say, "I trust you to learn without me forcing you to to" but then say "I can't trust you to know when to stop eating Twinkies."

 

If math is learned according to their readiness and interest, then learning how to mop a floor should be too.

 

So therefore being "controlling" or setting any limits in the areas of ... oh, they used to list them! ... food, sleep, TV, video games, chores, and personal hygiene ... will have a negative effect on unschooling.

 

Me talking now:

It seemed that they were big on the "whatever interests them that moment is what they should be doing, to best learn." For example, they said that if your child is asking questions about the stars, you could/should stop what you're doing to haul the telescope out of the attic. If they're engrossed in an activity/TV show, you shouldn't stop them to say that it's bedtime. They're learning.

 

So I guess if you do think that way, it makes sense that it would extend to sleeping til noon, eating what you want when you want, and never doing chores.

[woolybear]

Actually I remember on the unschooling boards, many people said they did not like TCS.

 

Here's the spiel as I remember it:

 

In unschooling, learning is life. How do you separate the two?

 

You can't say, "I trust you to learn without me forcing you to to" but then say "I can't trust you to know when to stop eating Twinkies."

 

If math is learned according to their readiness and interest, then learning how to mop a floor should be too.

 

So therefore being "controlling" or setting any limits in the areas of ... oh, they used to list them! ... food, sleep, TV, video games, chores, and personal hygiene ... will have a negative effect on unschooling.

 

Me talking now:

It seemed that they were big on the "whatever interests them that moment is what they should be doing, to best learn." For example, they said that if your child is asking questions about the stars, you could/should stop what you're doing to haul the telescope out of the attic. If they're engrossed in an activity/TV show, you shouldn't stop them to say that it's bedtime. They're learning.

 

So I guess if you do think that way, it makes sense that it would extend to sleeping til noon, eating what you want when you want, and never doing chores.

 

 

Oh, you're bringing back the memories. I may not be able to sleep tonight, lol. Yes, I remember all those discussions/posts. And my attempts to live that way. And trying to convince myself it was all a good thing. (MAY...bee....but not if it makes me miserable or crazy. Because we all know, if mama aint happy, aint nobody happy. or something like that.)

[Faithr]

Sue G, I was very relaxed about math with my oldest 3 kids. It worked beautifully for them. We didn't get formal with them until 5th, 6th or 7th grade. It was different for each kids; my 3rd child requested a math text in 5th grade and worked through it himself! Unfortunately the same methods did not work so well for my youngest two! But that's another story! Here are some things we did:

 

1. They would go through phases where they enjoyed games that teach math concepts; Monopoly, the card game 21, Rummikub, etc. They also like playing Math Blasters, Math for the Real World and Logical Land of the Zoombinis on the computer.

 

2. I read lots of counting/math concepts books to them when they were little. They loved G is for Google. Another book they loved was How Much is a Million. The Marilyn Burns books were big hits as well. One year my dd built a 'computer' from a project in the book How Math Works and learned all about the binary system!

 

3. We did science stuff that required a certain amount of math. For instance my oldest child liked to participate in science fairs and that would necessarily involve using some math. That would spill over into what the other kids were learning as they watched her work her experiments and get her presentation ready. Also for several years we were in a co-op that did the Jason Project which is a hands on science program that has the students doing simulated experiments along with scientists. That necessarily has applied algebra in it often.

 

4. I had an impromptu measuring center on my kitchen counter. I bought a scientific scale and for MONTHS my kids would just stop and entertain themselves by weighing things and comparing their weights. They also went through a phase where they loved to use my dh's measuring tape. This started when we were trying to figure out exactly how big Noah's Ark was. First we had to figure out a cubit, then we had to convert cubits to feet. The kids thought that was fascinating, for days and days afterward they were measuring everything and got very facile at converting inches to feet, etc.

 

5. Cooking, sewing, gardening, helping dad build a backyard fort, tangrams, sudokus, helping mom grocery shop, figuring how long ago things happened (like when you go to some historical site), telling time on an analogue clock, asking them to figure out the tip for the waiter/pizza delivery guy, watching the PBS show Cyberspace, all were natural ways to think about numbers.

 

6. We do end of the year testing using the CAT. At some point in early spring I'd buy some some workbooks at B&N and we'd do some test prep. Because we didn't work out of workbooks much, they actually enjoyed these as a change of pace. Plus they did not want to bomb out on the tests. So we'd focus on those for about 3 or 4 weeks, picking and choosing the stuff they hadn't learned yet.

 

7. I did use some old MCP TM's that have mental math and puzzles and I'd go through periods where I'd ask them mental math questions over breakfast from those TMs. Also those TM's have a great way of explaining how to do stuff like add and subtract big numbers etc. Whenever the kids would ask me how to do something technical like that I'd refer to the TM if I didn't feel I could explain it well. We have a big whiteboard and I'd do a problem with them explaining it all. It would stay up on the whiteboard for a while and you could see the kids looking at it and taking it in as they went about their daily business. Sometimes they'd talk about it or ask me to show them another problem and I would.

 

8. At some point when the kids seemed ready or were asking for it, I'd sit down with them and do a concentrated study on the times tables using Math It. I've used that with 4 out of 5 kids and am getting ready to use it again with my last child. It is an excellent way to teach multiplication.

 

My oldest didn't really get formal with math until 7th grade where she tested right into Saxon 8/7. She was able to do Algebra in 8th. She was slow at her math facts and she had to work on those in 7th grade. My 2nd child just did everything his older sister did so he got formal with math in 6th grade. He started in Saxon 7/6. And as I mentioned before the next child demanded a math text and started Saxon 6/5 in 5th grade.

 

My current 5th grader and 3rd graders are very different. They just don't think about math and respond to it the same way my older ones did. Also my 5th grader gets stressed about not knowing things. He flipped out when a kid his age knew long division but he didn't. So even though he isn't always happy to do math formally he appreciates learning math that way. And his 3rd grade sister is just going along for the ride. It is easier teaching them in the same way as opposed to being formal with one and not formal with the other.

 

Anyway, this got long but hopefully will be of some help to you!

[LindaOz]

Math is the big fight these days. So, I'm pulling together a bunch of math games to accomplish what he should be doing in Singapore. So far, so good.

 

My kids love the site http://www.mathletics.com.au

 

It's excellent, and IMO, well worth the $$$.

 

Some of my kids will even choose to do Mathletics in their free time. Can't say 'no' to that..... :D

[calandalsmom]

I just realized that the woman who did the applestars blog linked in this thread spoke at the conference but it was a talk I missed! It was supposed to be very good! Im almost positive it was her: Cindy Gaddis?

[Faithr]

Yes! That's her name! She deals a lot with autistic kids because she has several I think she has also adopted a lot of kids as well as having her own.

 

That is great that she gave a talk at the unschooling conference. She is very wise, gentle and reasonable. I don't know how Radical Unschooler's would view her because she definitely has different ways of approaching education in accordance to a child's developmental stages. This made so much sense to me. I think RU's often ignore development issues. They seem to treat children as if they were mini adults often who are capable of making reasoned decisions. This reminds me of the school system which wants to rush children into things they may not be developmentally ready for. So busy trying to squeeze reality into their ideology/hidden agenda they forget to treat the child as a child, even as they boast of how much they want the best for the child!

 

Anyway, Cindy Gaddis is her name. I haven't read her blog for a while but be sure to read her posts on Collaborative Learning. They are wonderful!

[angela in ohio]

When I think of classical "unschooling" it does not resemble any of these statements. I simply believe that children who are motivated, and have an interest in a topic, can teach themselves that subject.

 

See, I just call that classical education. ;)

[lovemykids]

See, I just call that classical education. ;)

 

Yeah, geez, I am not going to use the term unschool from here on out! People might mistakenly think that I also feed my children ice cream and cake for breakfast, and let them play video games and watch TV to their hearts content. Um, no way, Jose,- not on my watch.

[Sue G in PA]

Nothing wrong with ice cream for breakfast once in a while. :lol:

[lovemykids]

You know what? I shouldn’t say that either!! I am keeping my mouth shut. What works for one person, may not work for another. We all have to decide which path to take; there are many ways of achieving certain goals. Kudos to you successful unschoolers! It’s too much work for me. LOL.

 

I am sure that there are nutrition conscience unschoolers out there too. But the no rules thing got me thinking...:001_smile:

[HomeschoolingMy4]

Hi everyone!! I'm joining this conversation a little late. I'm unschooling my youngest- she's 5.. Kindergarten unschooler. She's extremely interesting. It's been a BLAST! We're somewhat unschooling my 2 other girls (7,9) & my 12 yr old ds in certain areas- he loves and thrives on structure so requires it in parts of his life. He can explain to you all about how certain electronics work & cars from pure interest & self discovery. I love it! I'd also go with the definition above: I simply believe that children who are motivated, and have an interest in a topic, can teach themselves that subject.

[ssmeest]

I'm unschooling my 4 year old. Tried to do a more structured school day and it bombed big time. So we do what she wants when she wants ans she's learning and loving it.

 

Sandra

[jld]

Homeschoolingmy4 and ssmeest, glad to hear you are enjoying your journey with your children!

[rose_king]

. I was really insulted by one of the speakers at the UWWG. She and her husband said two things: one was if the dishes left all over the house by the kids bother me "you have two hands, you pick them up." and the other was that "if you choose to live with conflict that's your choice." (wrt housekeeping AND your kids behavior).

 

The third thing that bugged the heck out of me was "expectations lead to resentment." QUOTE]

:001_huh:

Wow! This would NOT work in my home. You make the mess, you clean it up. If making my children responsible for their behavior is conflict, I think we will just have to live in a conflicted world...;)

[LittleIzumi]

All the teaching style quizzes peg me at unschooler or almost-unschooler but I have those attachments to bedtime, behavior expectations, and using some curricula that get me booted out of true unschooling circles. Can I just call our style "personalized" instead? :tongue_smilie:We can just invent new terminology for our spot on the spectrum.

[rose_king]

I can't believe I have read every one of these posts. I loved this thread! Come to find out I have a few unschooling tendencies of my own. Go figure! :tongue_smilie:I really appreciate the different views I have read. I think I will research unschooling a little more. Now I think I will redefine our own hsing style. How about Classical unschooling with a parental nudge?:lol:

[rose_king]

I just call our style "personalized" instead? :tongue_smilie:We can just invent new terminology for our spot on the spectrum.

 

:iagree::lol:

[Faithr]

I just joined the Homeschooling creatively yahoo list that is owned by Cindy Gaddis. Looks interesting!

[Jenny in GA]

. I was really insulted by one of the speakers at the UWWG. She and her husband said two things: one was if the dishes left all over the house by the kids bother me "you have two hands, you pick them up." and the other was that "if you choose to live with conflict that's your choice." (wrt housekeeping AND your kids behavior).

 

The third thing that bugged the heck out of me was "expectations lead to resentment." QUOTE]

:001_huh:

Wow! This would NOT work in my home. You make the mess, you clean it up. If making my children responsible for their behavior is conflict, I think we will just have to live in a conflicted world...;)

 

 

Oh yeah, I do remember the unschoolers often saying, "If the mess bothers you, then you clean it up!"

 

They often said that you should treat children like a welcome guest in your home. I remember wanting to sincerely say, "Really?? So if you were a guest in someone's home, you would just leave your stuff all over the place? And then if they said something, you would tell them, 'If the mess bothers you, then you clean it up'?"

 

I never did, because I knew the responses would probably confuse and frustrate me.

 

They all claimed that their kids grew up to be very helpful and courteous. I don't get it. My husband kept saying I must be misunderstanding them, but I tried understand it for 4-5 years. If it takes longer than that, well, I give up!

[rose_king]

 

 

Oh yeah, I do remember the unschoolers often saying, "If the mess bothers you, then you clean it up!"

 

They often said that you should treat children like a welcome guest in your home. I remember wanting to sincerely say, "Really?? So if you were a guest in someone's home, you would just leave your stuff all over the place? And then if they said something, you would tell them, 'If the mess bothers you, then you clean it up'?"

 

QUOTE]

 

:001_huh: For Real?!?! :lol: Not at my house....

[Faithr]

The thing is a child is not a guest. To me the notion of 'guest' connotes some distance between yourself and the visitor! A child is part of a family. Families are good things, are they not? Why is being a guest in a family preferable to being a member of a family? Families live together, work together, struggle together, love together, rejoice together. Guests come and go. Sometimes you're sad to see them go and other times it's a relief when they leave! But members of a family are all a part of a team! I'd much rather be a family member than a guest!!!!

[MelanieM]

Well, I can actually see the merit of the advice to do it yourself if something is bothering you. That doesn't mean it is ok that one person can always go around making a mess and the other should clean up after them, but rather that it can be more peaceful to take care of things yourself rather than attempting to force someone else to do it because it is important to you. And in a respectful relationship people, even little people, do learn the benefit of doing things for themselves simply because it brings joy to others.

 

I think the tricky thing with these types of conversations is that people are speaking in extremes. There is a world between letting a child destroy the home and saying/doing nothing about it (the extreme example that seems to come to mind) and requesting help and modeling graciousness and patience when kids aren't automatically complying (where I can see this working). On the other hand, there is a world of difference between having house rules (what many families choose) and brow-beating your kid into doing something that is horrendous to them (the extreme some RUs seem to think of).

 

There are so many things to consider with all of this... expectations (do you think kids won't want to help unless forced?), personalities (have you only ever experienced one type of child?), personal goals and agendas, life priorities, etc. There's just no perfect recipe that's going to work for every family, and that's ok. there's room for lots of diversity and choice.

[AngelaNYC]

We all have to remember to keep UNCHOOLING and RADICAL UNSCHOOLING separate. Radical unschoolers take the relaxed, child-led education principle and incorporate it into every aspect of their lives - some sort of "consensual living" thing. They really are 2 different things. Don't mix them up. :D