Realistic use of WEM for high school?

[Colleen in NS]

In WTM, it says to have the student read the genre section that pertains to the book he/she will read, take notes, and use the methods while reading through the lit. book. How realistic is this for a 9th grader? 10th? Etc.?

 

I went through the novel, autobiography, and history sections this week, highlighting the main questions in bold print and the "to do" helps - imperative sentences that would tell me what to do each step of the way in going through each level of reading a book. It took a lot more concentration than I thought, and I was motivated. I'm wondering if anyone's kids read and take notes on the methods themselves, or if it's more Mom-led - Mom keeping WEM by her side while Mom and child talk about the book. I had the idea of me typing up the questions for my kids, just to save time, and then someone told me that's what she does, too. And, do your kids write down answers to the questions? How long did it take you or your kids to get comfortable with the process in each genre? And did you use WEM for different genres in one school year? I'm just wondering because (maybe it's again because I'm almost 42 and my brain takes longer to understand) I'm pretty sure it will take *me* awhile to 1. be comfortable with the process in each genre and 2. read and process books.

 

Also, I remember Susan saying last year at the PHP conf. that it's not necessary for kids to go through all three levels for every book they *are assigned to read for the purpose of analysis/discussion/opinion-forming.* I got the feeling that teaching how to go through the third level *on assigned books* might even wait til older grades, but I may have misunderstood the intent...what has been your experience with this?

 

I've had this book for years, have tried out the novel study with three books (got a little further in the study process each time - partway through logic stage is my max so far), and pick it up to peruse every so often. But this time I decided to deface my book - I've spent hours this week, I'm exhausted from it, but it sure was fulfilling. :D Boy, some of those questions in logic and rhetoric stage of the autobiography and history sections - HOW does someone figure out what types of questions to ask?? I got thinking that asking and answering those types of questions must be what a psychology class must be like. Fascinating.

 

So what is your version of realistically using WEM?

Edited February 12, 2010 by Colleen in NS
had to clarify the assigned books part

[JennW in SoCal]

Hi Colleen,

 

I have yet to have my kids actually read the WEM as I don't think it would go over very well. My current high schooler isn't interested in how to learn, he just wants to know what is expected of him from day to day.

 

Like you, I have marked up my WEM, though I didn't do it all in one marathon session! It is a lot to take in and process! I focused on the fiction section at first, then read and marked up the other sections as needed, such as last month when we did a poetry unit. We haven't done all the genres -- I did fiction and plays with the oldest, and now fiction and poetry with the youngest and I'll get to the other genres with him as well before he graduates.

 

Sometimes I read aloud from the WEM, such as the from the poetry section last month when I read to my son that all poems are about God, love or depression. He wasn't as amused as I was by this, but I shared it anyway! Most often I use the logic-level questions as a starting point for discussions, and look at the rhetoric questions as a starting point for essays. These are the persuasive type of essays as SWB described in her talks from the anniversary conference last year. When SWB says that it is not necessary for kids to go through all three levels for every book, to me it means that you don't need to analyze every book that is read, which is the case with my avid reader, or that you don't have to delve deeply into every assigned book.

 

One thing I've learned is the more you get comfortable with the questions in the WEM, the more natural it becomes to think about books in a deeper way. My ds and I share many books that we read for pleasure, and when he was commenting recently about a book not having a climax, I automatically started talking with him about the conflict in the book -- was there one, was it resolved, how were the main characters changed, if at all. It was an assigned book, but not a book I had ear marked for analysis, but we started analyzing it anyway.

 

I have tried with both boys to get them to keep a reading journal, to have them summarize each chapter and to get used to marking up the copies of the books they are reading -- but have had limited luck!! It is one of those habits that will take time to instill.

 

Take your time in applying the WEM. Try it with one genre at a time and don't add another genre until you are comfortable with the first. Don't dabble with the rhetoric questions if they seem too daunting at first. Keep your marked up copy by you and refer to the questions as you discuss a book, preferably a book you both enjoy, but don't feel compelled to do this with every single book.

 

This got long! Hope it helps, though :)

[Kareni]

You can find some helpful threads if you click on the tag 'WEM Literature Study' below.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Nan in Mass]

I look at the list of books in TWTM and pick the next one on the list that I think my children (just child now - sniff) would like. I get copies for each of us. I look at the introduction in the book to see if it is something that we would find helpful. If we haven't read the genre section's "quick history" bit recently, I read that aloud. This usually takes a day or two. Next, I send a child to look at wiki and report back what is special about this book, why it is great, the date, and the place. This information is almost always in the first paragraph or two. If it isn't, we don't bother. Then we read the bits of the introduction that I have picked out. I focus on historical and translation information and skip anything having to do with literary commentary. Between TWEM and the introduction, we get plenty of historical background information. If that process has been fairly short, we get out the timeline book and read it. Child puts book on timeline and map. A few times a year they do a historical context list for a book as described in TWTM. By now, we have been working on the book for a week and they usually have only written a few words. I have them start a notebook page with the title, date, and author. This is usually on a clipboard that I try to get them to keep with their book. Then we begin reading the book aloud together. I encourage them to write comments in the book and make a few notes. At first, this consists of me saying, "That was an interesting thing to say. Write it in your notes." (And then we all wait 15 minutes while child tries to find his notes because he used his clipboard for something else. Sigh.) Towards the end of high school, my older one was saying, "Maybe I should write that down in my notes, huh?" He usually knew where his notes were, too, even if he didn't have them with him while we were reading. If it is a book with lots of characters, we tried to keep a character list. I found it worked best to write them inside the cover (for obvious reasons - sigh). At the end of the book, I would sit with TWEM on my lap and read the questions aloud. I found that it was nice to actually use the book for this because SWB elaborates on what she means by each question and it is nice to read the elaborations. We go through all the questions for each book, even though some of them don't apply. The exception to this is scifi, which my older one was reading to himself. I wrote out the novel questions for him and he ran through them, thinking about the answers, not writing them down. Then child does some sort of project. By then, child has usually decided on a good one. If not, by then I have plenty of ideas and child chooses one. Sometimes we just read things. We have been through the historical context for Shakespeare before, so now when we do one of his plays, we just read it aloud in parts (usually getting other people to join us). We don't discuss it very much. We use Shakespeare as dessert GRIN. We just read LoTR, also. The whole process looks a little different from the book in my house, but it is comfortable, not too difficult for any of us to do, and it obviously works because when my children tell me about a movie they've gone to see, they voluntarily discuss it in terms of those WEM questions. Discuss isn't the right word. They talk and I listen. This is very different from the "It was ok" I got before we began doing this. We have managed without much literary vocabulary. Writing Strands made sure they knew about plot, climax, point of view, narrator, static and dynamic characters, setting, and other choices that an author makes. Whenever we get lost in the plot, the youngest, who has done TWTM since first grade, tells us what is happening. Both children's favourite children's tape was D'Aulier's Greek Myths, and they have read many other myths and gone through Kingfisher, so they seem to have enough background to manage. We have managed with just those things. I had one year of high school literature (the rest of my high school English was other things), and half a year of Arthurian literature and half a year of French literature in college, and no history. I do not have a good background to be doing this sort of thing, but I've managed fine. I vaguely remember the sorts of lectures we had on books before we read them and the discussions we had afterwards in high school, and TWEM contains all that and more, so I don't feel like I need extra literary guides or anything. Often, it will turn out National Geographic will have an article on Shakespeare while we are reading a play or a Mesopotamian exhibit will show up at the art museum while we are doing Gilgamesh. If we have time, we do something with the happy coincidences.

 

I went through the novel, autobiography, and history sections this week, highlighting the main questions in bold print and the "to do" helps - imperative sentences that would tell me what to do each step of the way in going through each level of reading a book. It took a lot more concentration than I thought, and I was motivated.

I think you will find that it is easier when you are reading aloud and doing it all right then, rather than reading to yourself and trying to remember it all.

I'm wondering if anyone's kids read and take notes on the methods themselves' date=' or if it's more Mom-led - Mom keeping WEM by her side while Mom and child talk about the book.[/quote']

Definately Mum-led here.

I had the idea of me typing up the questions for my kids' date=' just to save time, and then someone told me that's what she does, too. And, do your kids write down answers to the questions? [/quote']

No.

How long did it take you or your kids to get comfortable with the process in each genre?

By the time we had been through a genre once' date=' it was pretty comfortable.

And did you use WEM for different genres in one school year? I'm just wondering because (maybe it's again because I'm almost 42 and my brain takes longer to understand) I'm pretty sure it will take *me* awhile to 1. be comfortable with the process in each genre and 2. read and process books.

Yes. We did the books in chronological order.

 

Also' date=' I remember Susan saying last year at the PHP conf. that it's not necessary for kids to go through all three levels for every book they *are assigned to read for the purpose of analysis/discussion/opinion-forming.* I got the feeling that teaching how to go through the third level *on assigned books* might even wait til older grades, but I may have misunderstood the intent...what has been your experience with this?[/quote']

With TWTM type routines, we tend to do better by repeating the whole thing over and over than with me trying to judge how to scale up to the end result. This is probably just something that I am not good at. We aren't grading, so we can get away with doing the whole thing each time and just doing badly with the parts we aren't quite ready for yet. This stretches us every time, insures I haven't misjudged and held us back, and lets us all see where we are headed and what the goal looks like. If you are grading, then you will either have to just do the bits you can do successfully, or come up with some sort of grade-appropriate grading rubric allowing you to ignore the bits they attempted but shouldn't be expected to do well yet.

 

I've had this book for years' date=' have tried out the novel study with three books (got a little further in the study process each time - partway through logic stage is my max so far),[/quote']

I think you will find it easier to finish when you are doing it with someone, even it that someone is a clueless and less than enthusiastic teenager.

and pick it up to peruse every so often. But this time I decided to deface my book - I've spent hours this week' date=' I'm exhausted from it, but it sure was fulfilling. :D Boy, some of those questions in logic and rhetoric stage of the autobiography and history sections - HOW does someone figure out what types of questions to ask?? I got thinking that asking and answering those types of questions must be what a psychology class must be like. Fascinating.

 

So what is your version of realistically using WEM?[/quote']

 

HTH

-Nan

[Colleen in NS]

My current high schooler isn't interested in how to learn, he just wants to know what is expected of him from day to day.

 

Hmm..this is a good point for me to consider - will I want my kids to "learn how to learn" via reading from and taking notes from WEM, or not? I guess I'll be better able to judge when the time comes.

 

Like you, I have marked up my WEM, though I didn't do it all in one marathon session! It is a lot to take in and process!

 

:lol::lol: I know, I'm insane!!! I finished marking up the rest of the processes this morning... It's just how I operate at times - things bother me and bother me and I finally have to just devote chunks of time to processing through something, so I can feel as though I have at least a vague overview on how to do something. It worked, and I feel one step closer to being able to read/understand books with more depth, and to being able to lead my kids in the process. I also discovered that poetry and plays might actually be fun to read and dissect! I definitely do NOT remember much of what I marked, but I have relief that the parts that will tell me what to do are marked for quick reference now.

 

Sometimes I read aloud from the WEM, such as the from the poetry section last month when I read to my son that all poems are about God, love or depression. He wasn't as amused as I was by this, but I shared it anyway! I just read this last night - I had no idea! Interesting. Most often I use the logic-level questions as a starting point for discussions, and look at the rhetoric questions as a starting point for essays. Any particular reason not to go through the grammar stage questions?These are the persuasive type of essays as SWB described in her talks from the anniversary conference last year. Thanks for confirming - I was starting to figure that out this week, as I marked my book.

 

One thing I've learned is the more you get comfortable with the questions in the WEM, the more natural it becomes to think about books in a deeper way. My ds and I share many books that we read for pleasure, and when he was commenting recently about a book not having a climax, I automatically started talking with him about the conflict in the book -- was there one, was it resolved, how were the main characters changed, if at all. It was an assigned book, but not a book I had ear marked for analysis, but we started analyzing it anyway. This is good to hear.

 

Take your time in applying the WEM. Try it with one genre at a time and don't add another genre until you are comfortable with the first. Don't dabble with the rhetoric questions if they seem too daunting at first. Keep your marked up copy by you and refer to the questions as you discuss a book, preferably a book you both enjoy, but don't feel compelled to do this with every single book.

 

No, I won't do it with every book. I clarified that after I read your response, because my OP sounded like I wanted to do it with every book - not the case. Thank you once again for your helpful input!

 

You can find some helpful threads if you click on the tag 'WEM Literature Study' below.

 

Thank you. I'd read these threads before, but I re-read them last night and found answers to some of my more detailed questions that have occurred to me lately.

 

it obviously works because when my children tell me about a movie they've gone to see, they voluntarily discuss it in terms of those WEM questions. Discuss isn't the right word. They talk and I listen. This is very different from the "It was ok" I got before we began doing this. We have managed without much literary vocabulary.

 

Oh, Nan, I really appreciate your writing all that out again! I read those linked threads last night and have read them before, fascinated at the peek into a literature session at your house. It was really late when I re-read the links, or I'd have posted a quick reply here so you'd know I'd seen your written process elsewhere, so thank you for taking the time again.

I think you will find that it is easier when you are reading aloud and doing it all right then, rather than reading to yourself and trying to remember it all.

 

See my insanity comment to Jenn. Once I started in with marking, I knew I'd never remember everything. But I do feel better for having highlighted the main things I do want to find quickly, when I get to analyzing. I also have a bare frame in my mind now, and new concepts - plays and poems reflect worldview, and poems are sort of like autobiographies. Who knew? Not me.

 

By the time we had been through a genre once, it was pretty comfortable.

 

Do you mean once you had been through all the books in a genre, or once you had done the grammar/logic/rhetoric stage with one book? (please, mean the second option :) )

 

Yes. We did the books in chronological order.

 

So, you would have processed through a few different genres in a year? And if you did mean the second option above, this was probably fairly comfortable by the end of a year?

 

With TWTM type routines, we tend to do better by repeating the whole thing over and over than with me trying to judge how to scale up to the end result.

 

Grading...can't even begin to think about that. But I have a feeling I will first try to do it this way, with going through the whole routine grammar/logic/rhetoric with one book, and forcing myself to get used to it. It's *me* that will probably be more afraid of it, but if I can understand Latin declensions finally, surely I can do this.

 

I think you will find it easier to finish when you are doing it with someone, even it that someone is a clueless and less than enthusiastic teenager.

 

Thank you, Nan. I think it will be fun. I told dh this morning that I wanted him to do a novel study with me, that I'd lead the way...but he wasn't too enthusiastic...:D I need someone to practice with! Maybe I can still talk him into it; he might if it doesn't require anything more than talking or reading. I won't make him write his answers down or take notes from WEM. ;)

 

Can anyone comment on how the books of the Bible would break down for a WEM-style study? I'm thinking something like this:

 

Genesis to Esther - history

Job to Song of Songs - poetry

Major and Minor prophets - ??

Matthew - John - history?

Acts - history

the letters - ??

Revelation - novel? ??

 

Also, any other WEM-users out there?? I'd love to hear more stories.

[Nan in Mass]

Definately the second way GRIN.

 

I think that unless your reading skills are poor enough that you can't make any sense at all of the books, there are only two ways of botching this project. One is to not do it. The other is to be so demanding and nitpicking that everybody (including you) hates it and refuses to cooperate. These works are very cool stories. Gilgamesh is the story of a teenager, a prince who is running amok. His people desperately pray to their gods for help and the gods cleverly decide to send him a best friend (about the only way that I can think of to reign in a teenager who is a king and all-powerful - peer pressure LOL). As my son said, "I'm a teenager. He's a teenager. Of course I can relate the the main character. Duh." (That wasn't one of the most popular questions on the list, as you can tell. That one failed to generate much discussion GRIN. I figure we are doing well if three or four questions really "go".) If you try to reset the books in modern times, they come alive. Pick your translations carefully. The right translation makes all the difference. Go to the library or the book store and try to read a few of you choices. Or if you are ordering them and can get whatever you want, read the selections in TWEM and decide from that. The nice part about this is that even if you do it badly, it still works. (I can attest to that LOL.) If you are worried, why not start with a Shakespeare play? There are lots of those, so if you mess up too badly, you can try Shakespeare again later. They don't take forever. Read the genre history section. See if you can get hold of the Everything Shakespeare book and have a look at how much the players were paid and a few other fun details like that. Then get additional copies from the library, make a list of the characters, recruit a few more family members, divy up the parts, and go to it. Then answer the questions in the end. For a paper, write about which of your family members you would cast for which parts and why. Or write about how the play could be used as an episode of your favourite tv series. Or something else fun like that. Don't worry if you can't answer all the questions. Just keep going.

 

I worry and worry about something and then finally obsessively put all my energy into figuring it out, too. I used to think it was a stupid way of doing anything, but I've decided that it is easier to be creative that way so it isn't so stupid afterall. Your reading the book all at once sounds about right to me. I marked up my book, too, even though the questions aren't too difficult to pick out of the text.

 

Try to have fun and not worry too much. Easier said than done, I know.

-Nan

[Rhondabee]

Colleen,

 

I do type out the basic questions, and let my kids look at those while we're discussing (or, at least I did the last two years - Ancients has been a whole 'nuther animal for me!). I guess because one DS is like me - very visual; I'm the kind who checks the bulletin after every event in church even though it's always the same week after week - LOL! They didn't ever write anything on those sheets.

 

But, like Nan said, I also kept WEM open and that way when a question had extra "stuff" to it, I could easily read it. For example, say it started to rain in the book right after some tragedy, then I would read the little blurb about how the author shows his worldview of a caring higher power by using the setting to reflect that power's emotions. And, like Jenn said, at first it didn't seem like anyone really cared, but then - maybe a book or two later, the same thing happened in a read-aloud, and one of the boys would notice it.

 

I even kept WEM beside me (at first) when I really started understanding how to use those grammar-stage questions with my grammar-aged student to get more focused narrations. Then, with my logic-stage student I would have previewed those logic-stage questions and only pulled out the 2-3 most relevant. (I answered them all ahead of time to know which those were.)

 

I think starting that process when the boys were younger really helped me. I didn't do the rhetoric literature list. I just applied WEM to what they were reading. We really only examined the novels and poems. We did read some plays, but my DS hated all the plays on the 8th grade list, so we didn't use WEM with those.

 

So, what are you reading with your ds now?

[JennW in SoCal]

Colleen -- your threads and replies really make me think! It occurred to me, while vacuuming just now, that I do want my ds to learn how to learn, so I will eventually have him read sections of the WEM. But not now. He is 14 and in the midst of a growth spurt and there is only so much higher brain functioning I can demand of him in a given day!

 

Also...this is just my very humble opinion, but I wouldn't apply the WEM to the Bible, especially to start with. Especially with kids. I'd start with a good novel, something enjoyable and accessible. The Hobbit, for instance. I thought I'd delve into the Psalms when we did poetry last month, but didn't feel it was the right thing to do at the moment. Didn't quite know where I wanted to go with it, so skipped it.

 

You also asked why I skip the grammar level questions. I think most of those questions are so automatic for us that we are ready to start with the logic level. I have never asked either child to come up with an alternative title -- perhaps I will try that before the end of the year.

 

As I said, you make me think!

[Colleen in NS]

Definately the second way GRIN.

 

phew!

 

Pick your translations carefully. The right translation makes all the difference. Go to the library or the book store and try to read a few of you choices. Or if you are ordering them and can get whatever you want, read the selections in TWEM and decide from that.

 

I think I'll stick with WEM recs til I get more comfortable. You know, whenever I go out thrift store hunting, I scour the bookshelves. And I buy anything that strikes me as "classic", whether it's an author I've heard of, or if it's a Dover thrift edition, or Penguin or Oxford, etc.. Because of that, I had an edition of The Canterbury Tales on my shelf. Silly me never bothered to look at who translated it, and I saw another version of it recently in a thrift store, with the translator I was looking for (rec'd in WTM/WEM), and I bought it. Guess what - I now have two of the same version! :) Anyway, it's fine, I see, because I've decided we ARE going to *buy* our books, and learn to mark them up. Each of us.

 

Then get additional copies from the library, make a list of the characters, recruit a few more family members, divy up the parts, and go to it. Then answer the questions in the end.

 

Sounds fun! Also, in the play section, she suggests for fun that you take a play and stage it out yourself - it reminded me of some theatre classes I took a long time ago, that I liked. Sounds like a fun thing to do.

 

I worry and worry about something and then finally obsessively put all my energy into figuring it out, too. I used to think it was a stupid way of doing anything, but I've decided that it is easier to be creative that way so it isn't so stupid afterall.

 

Yep, I know what you mean.

 

I'm the kind who checks the bulletin after every event in church even though it's always the same week after week - LOL!

 

:lol:

 

But, like Nan said, I also kept WEM open and that way when a question had extra "stuff" to it, I could easily read it.

 

Yes, it's that extra stuff that will help me figure out how to use the questions.

 

I even kept WEM beside me (at first) when I really started understanding how to use those grammar-stage questions with my grammar-aged student to get more focused narrations.

 

I think starting that process when the boys were younger really helped me. I didn't do the rhetoric literature list. I just applied WEM to what they were reading.

 

Oh, yes, I remember you talking about this one time. I see how you could tailor them "down" to their level.

 

So, what are you reading with your ds now?

 

I'm reading Pyle's abridged version of Robin Hood to both kids right now. Along with some random poetry. I recently read MacCreaghan (sp?) version of The Canterbury Tales to them. Ds has read some others himself that are on the medieval logic stage list, like the Norse gods books, and some King Arthur. Oh, I read one King Arthur book to them, too. I *might* read the WTM logic stage rec'd parts of the Inferno, but I have to examine that a little more closely. I can't just hand that to him, he'd be bored. I'll also read Lamb's Shakespeare book, and those other WTM rec'd books - maybe not a play yet this year - I may wait til high school, but I may get a play video from the library. I also read Coghill's Prologue to the Canterbury Tales - I think ds enjoyed it. Some I can give him, some I need to read aloud. And some that he has read, I still read aloud because it's a way that *I* will get the story. :)

 

Other than that, we lucked out at a thrift store today - it was one of their random Bag Sale Days, where you fill a decent sized trash bag with clothing for $7, or a huge one for $12. And today, they included children's books, including chapter books, so I filled that $7 bag to the brim with books!!! All sorts of good stories I've never heard of, but are out there on the shelves of thrift stores everywhere.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen -- your threads and replies really make me think! It occurred to me, while vacuuming just now, that I do want my ds to learn how to learn, so I will eventually have him read sections of the WEM. But not now. He is 14 and in the midst of a growth spurt and there is only so much higher brain functioning I can demand of him in a given day!

 

I keep reading about this phenomenon (?) - hopefully I'll recognize it when it comes, so I can back off. :D I looked at my son this morning, and was shocked, because suddenly his eyes were at my eye level!!! I had him stand with me, and sure enough, he has grown again in the past couple of months - another half inch, and he will be level with me. He was all smiles.

 

Also...this is just my very humble opinion, but I wouldn't apply the WEM to the Bible, especially to start with. Especially with kids. I'd start with a good novel, something enjoyable and accessible. The Hobbit, for instance. I thought I'd delve into the Psalms when we did poetry last month, but didn't feel it was the right thing to do at the moment. Didn't quite know where I wanted to go with it, so skipped it.

 

So, do you mean you wouldn't do it at all, even for yourself (assuming you'd want to read the Bible books), or do you mean you wouldn't start off WEMing the Bible with kids, as one of the first projects?

 

I was more wondering for myself...I know Psalms is mentioned in WEM, and some other Bible books are mentioned in WTM rhetoric stage lit. list, so I assumed WEM could be used with them, but what about the other books in the Bible - I am wondering if WEM principles can be applied to all the Bible books, and if so, how do you know which genre applies to which books? I would really like to feel like I can tackle the Bible books in a more objective way than how I've been taught in the past. I've looked at, heard about, read about Bible study books galore, but I really like having a WEM type of pattern to apply, if it's applicable here. I even bought, a few years ago, a Bible study book that used similar methods to WEM, but for some reason, I like the WEM way MUCH better. Can all the Bible books be classified into WEM genres?

 

And that reminds me of another question. What do you do about analyzing science (like those on the WTM rhetoric stage science classics reading list)/philosophy/religion/apologetic type books like Mere Christianity? I've read a bit in HTRAB about that - is this the "thing" to use? Or do any of those categories fall under something in WEM?

 

You also asked why I skip the grammar level questions. I think most of those questions are so automatic for us that we are ready to start with the logic level.

 

Aha! That makes sense.

 

As I said, you make me think!

 

Hope I didn't interrupt your vaccuuming too much. :lol: This is the best place for me to think out loud, so I get pretty detailed here, or I'd go crazy in my real life with no one to hash this stuff out with. Thanks for helping me think.

[Kareni]

Here are a few resources that you might also consider reading, Colleen, to get geared up for the process.

 

How to Read Literature Like a Professor: A Lively and Entertaining Guide to Reading Between the Lines by Thomas Foster

 

and Foster's follow up book: How to Read Novels Like a Professor: A Jaunty Exploration of the World's Favorite Literary Form

 

I'd also suggest Deconstructing Penguins: Parents, Kids, and the Bond of Reading by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone. While the book is geared to families with younger children, it would give you a very approachable overview of the process.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Nan in Mass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennW in SoCal

Colleen -- your threads and replies really make me think! It occurred to me, while vacuuming just now, that I do want my ds to learn how to learn, so I will eventually have him read sections of the WEM. But not now. He is 14 and in the midst of a growth spurt and there is only so much higher brain functioning I can demand of him in a given day!

 

Colleen replies: I keep reading about this phenomenon (?) - hopefully I'll recognize it when it comes, so I can back off. :D I looked at my son this morning, and was shocked, because suddenly his eyes were at my eye level!!! I had him stand with me, and sure enough, he has grown again in the past couple of months - another half inch, and he will be level with me. He was all smiles.

 

Reading this makes me realize how much I include my children in my own figuring-out-how-to-do-it process. I don't tend to go off and figure something out by myself and then come back and do it with the children. I would be a much, much better teacher if I did, I am sure, but I can't seem to manage to do it. I do it for general homeschooling strategy, but not for specific subjects. For specific subjects, I sit down with the children, announce that I got this book for us to learn how to do this-and-such, and we look at it together. I did pre-read TWEM, but a little way into it I decided that SWB presented the material much better than I could and that I would just use her words. That means that when we go to do the discussion for a genre, I just start reading the questions aloud to my children. I don't prepare. I've done this over and over with various sorts of curriculum: I set out to pre-read so I can present it my own way, and wind up deciding that the book does a nice job with the wording and I should just read the book aloud. Or I should just hand the book to the child to read. Obviously, I am not a teacher. I think TWTM/TWEM suits us because it is easy to use this way. This approach seems to have one major advantage, though - it is so easy to do that we actually do it.

 

I'm not implying that you people don't. I can't tell from your posts. It is just that reading this thread has made me realize that.

I'm not sure how this would be helpful to you. I just like having someone to talk to about all this GRIN.

 

-Nan

[Rhondabee]

 

I'm reading Pyle's abridged version of Robin Hood to both kids right now. Along with some random poetry. I recently read MacCreaghan (sp?) version of The Canterbury Tales to them. Ds has read some others himself that are on the medieval logic stage list, like the Norse gods books, and some King Arthur. Oh, I read one King Arthur book to them, too. I *might* read the WTM logic stage rec'd parts of the Inferno, but I have to examine that a little more closely. I can't just hand that to him, he'd be bored. I'll also read Lamb's Shakespeare book, and those other WTM rec'd books - maybe not a play yet this year - I may wait til high school, but I may get a play video from the library. I also read Coghill's Prologue to the Canterbury Tales - I think ds enjoyed it. Some I can give him, some I need to read aloud. And some that he has read, I still read aloud because it's a way that *I* will get the story. :)

 

 

 

I forgot you were in Middle Ages this year. I admit, that was the year I resorted to Sonlight Core 6. I dropped Tolkien's Sir Gawain and the Green Knight at the attempted-seduction scenes. I just couldn't have a DS who was really struggling against his hormones & temptations reading what I was trying to help him avoid, iykwim. Then, we got to Dante....

 

We did quite a few of the WTM selections as read-alouds, too. I think it's the hardest year.

 

But, I bet you could use the novel questions with the Robin Hood. Maybe not even with your kids, but just to make a start. I didn't actually read that one, so I won't be much help, but after you've finished reading it, why not come back and start a thread about it?

[Colleen in NS]

For specific subjects, I sit down with the children, announce that I got this book for us to learn how to do this-and-such, and we look at it together. I did pre-read TWEM, but a little way into it I decided that SWB presented the material much better than I could and that I would just use her words. That means that when we go to do the discussion for a genre, I just start reading the questions aloud to my children. I don't prepare. I've done this over and over with various sorts of curriculum: I set out to pre-read so I can present it my own way, and wind up deciding that the book does a nice job with the wording and I should just read the book aloud. Or I should just hand the book to the child to read. Obviously, I am not a teacher. I think TWTM/TWEM suits us because it is easy to use this way. This approach seems to have one major advantage, though - it is so easy to do that we actually do it.[/color]

 

I'm not implying that you people don't. I can't tell from your posts. It is just that reading this thread has made me realize that.

I'm not sure how this would be helpful to you. I just like having someone to talk to about all this GRIN.

 

-Nan

 

:lol:

 

I think I know what you mean. I keep thinking I *should* study ahead in things like grammar, math, and Latin. And soon logic, and maybe rhetoric materials. I have done it before, but didn't like it - I just get bored! It just seems easier to let my oldest read the lesson aloud (like in math, grammar, and Latin), and me quickly scan through the TM for any helps, and go through it together. The only thing I do ahead for Latin right now is to make flashcards. Oh, and I do sometimes read ahead a few pages of Latin, because it is so much more difficult for me than English grammar. I read to get a general clue before going through it with ds. R&S materials definitely explain things better and more clearly than I can. I think with my WEM-marking project this past week, it was my "general overview." I have a vague but big picture now of the process, just like I had a vague but big picture of grammar before we got into the details of it each year. I don't remember any specific questions/imperatives I highlighted, but they are there now for me to read aloud together when we get down to talking.

 

Then, we got to Dante....

 

Uh oh, what do the three dots mean? I haven't scanned through it yet.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[Storm Bay]

In our house with my eldest dd it is not realistic to use WEM exactly the way it's set up. I'm modifiying it. Dd won't do all of the books and I don't konw if she'll read all of the pre sections. She's just finished reading The Epic of Gilgamesh without having read anything about it first. She liked it a lot better than she'll admit, too, since I found her reading it when she was supposed to be doing other school work. She's not even up to that chapter in History of the Ancient World yet, either, but she's doing this in a semester, so we needed to get going on it. She'll answer questions about it, though, but I may wait until she reads the chapter in the history book & combine the written work accordingly.

 

As for my other two, I'll know when they get there.

[Nan in Mass]

Dante... My 17 and 13 yo's called it "sick" and "twisted" and were struck by how modern that sick twistedness seemed. Our book had creepy, powerful pictures in it, as well. LOL I guess that doesn't sound like much of a recommendation. We read part of the intro first for some historical background, which put it more into perspective. I wished we were more familiar with Roman Catholic beliefs. I wished that all through the middle ages. In general, I found that the great books we read dealt with issues that my boys were dealing with, and I didn't worry too much if something they read didn't exactly support our ideas about how they should behave. Enough of what we read did that when we got to something like Sir Gawain or Chaucer, I didn't worry. They were any worse than lots of modern movies. Or Shakespeare. Or some of our relatives grrrrrr. There is something to be said for having a natural opening to discuss such things. Not that we haven't avoided many, many things that I thought my particular children wouldn't be able to deal with... like the whole civil war, slavery, WW1, the holocaust, and almost all of the modern greats... Just explaining how we dealt with those particular works. I guess that is another argument for reading them aloud. (Or not reading them aloud... I have occasionally hit bits (like in Gilgamesh) where I told everyone we would read to ourselves until we got back to something suitable for mixed company. Do great books - see the world.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Bored. Yup.

[Colleen in NS]

Do great books - see the world.

-Nan

 

Oooooo! I like this quote!

 

Bored. Yup.

 

Nan, you are so funny. The more I read your posts, the more I think that we approach some things in like manner. You were the first one I ever saw write the phrase, "classical unschooling" and that intrigued me because there were things about unschooling that attracted me, yet I knew I wanted "system."

[Nan in Mass]

: )

I consider you one of my great finds on this board GRIN.

Hugs for Valentine's Day!

[Colleen in NS]

Here are a few resources that you might also consider reading, Colleen, to get geared up for the process.

 

How to Read Literature Like a Professor: A Lively and Entertaining Guide to Reading Between the Lines by Thomas Foster

 

and Foster's follow up book: How to Read Novels Like a Professor: A Jaunty Exploration of the World's Favorite Literary Form

 

I'd also suggest Deconstructing Penguins: Parents, Kids, and the Bond of Reading by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone. While the book is geared to families with younger children, it would give you a very approachable overview of the process.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

In our house with my eldest dd it is not realistic to use WEM exactly the way it's set up. I'm modifiying it. Dd won't do all of the books and I don't konw if she'll read all of the pre sections. She's just finished reading The Epic of Gilgamesh without having read anything about it first. She liked it a lot better than she'll admit, too, since I found her reading it when she was supposed to be doing other school work. She's not even up to that chapter in History of the Ancient World yet, either, but she's doing this in a semester, so we needed to get going on it. She'll answer questions about it, though, but I may wait until she reads the chapter in the history book & combine the written work accordingly.

 

As for my other two, I'll know when they get there.

 

I keep getting you two posters mixed up in my mind - I think it's the "i" that I keep seeing. But you *are* separate people; I see that now! :)

 

Thank you for the book recs - I may see if my library has them.

 

Karin, sort of a side question for you. Did you mean that your dd is doing HOAW in a semester? Do you use any of the suggestions in the new WTM for studying this? If so, how is it going or how have you modified?

 

Does anyone have any idea about the Bible books classification via WEM?

[Rhondabee]

 

Just that at the time, it was so over our heads. I felt so overwhelmed by it. I actually bought a children's version thinking maybe if we could get the gist of the story, we might appreciate the poem. But the children's version was so boring I couldn't make myself read it. I knew Dante was on the high school list, so I decided it would just have to wait.

 

I'm pretty sure that was the book that forced me into Sonlight, because I felt like a WTM failure. Looking back, I should have just skipped that one book and not worried about it. Live and learn~

 

ETA: I was really afraid to say this, but like Nan mentioned we really struggled through trying to understand Roman Catholicism. It was quite a job to help my children see that we disagree with some Catholic theology, but that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. (Lots of talks about the planks in our own eyes!) At any rate, the entire paradigm of the Roman Catholic Church was new to them, and even my then-6th grader was still rather concrete in his thinking - so the world was still so very black-and-white. And, he wanted to make it all white, and his convictions were very deep - very strong emotions. Add to that the sudden onslaught on hormones rocking his little "Barney-world", and let's just say it was a tumultuous year - LOL! It will be interesting next year - the boys will be in 7th and 10th. Maybe we'll do Dante together?

Edited February 14, 2010 by Rhondabee

[Nan in Mass]

We never do anything exactly. We don't do everything for every book. We do things out of order, sometimes. We certainly skip any books I don't think would be useful for us a that time. I don't worry if the history lags behind or gets ahead. We just keep going. It is amazing how much we have learned by doing TWEM badly GRIN. It is powerful stuff. A little goes a long way. I worried and worried about it until we had done it for a few years and I could really see how much my children were getting out of it. Now that is one subject that we just do as best we can, our way, not worrying. The nice thing about TWEM is that there are no right or wrong answers to it. You could wear yourself out trying to get every last drop of meaning or historical background out of every work, and you still wouldn't come anywhere close. I, too, have chosen to have my children read some things without any prep beforehand. Sometimes, it is more interesting that way. I think people have been self-educating using the great books for ages without using anything but the great books themselves, and it worked fine. They speak for themselves pretty well.

-Nan

[Colleen in NS]

Just that at the time, it was so over our heads. I felt so overwhelmed by it. I actually bought a children's version thinking maybe if we could get the gist of the story, we might appreciate the poem. But the children's version was so boring I couldn't make myself read it. I knew Dante was on the high school list, so I decided it would just have to wait.

 

Thanks, Rhonda. And I tried to find a children's version in the library, so *I* could get the gist of it, but there is none. I have the version rec'd. in WTM. A few weeks ago I decided to just forget it til high school (after a very quick glance at it). Then I read the fine detail in WTM logic stage, and it says only a certain part of the book, and when I checked, that part isn't very long...so I'm going to have a second look. We're still on a couple of other books, but I will have a look and see if a skim read-aloud might be alright, for introduction's sake.

[Storm Bay]

I keep getting you two posters mixed up in my mind - I think it's the "i" that I keep seeing. But you *are* separate people; I see that now! :)

 

Thank you for the book recs - I may see if my library has them.

 

Karin, sort of a side question for you. Did you mean that your dd is doing HOAW in a semester? Do you use any of the suggestions in the new WTM for studying this? If so, how is it going or how have you modified?

 

Does anyone have any idea about the Bible books classification via WEM?

 

 

We only have the first edition of WTM and haven't seen the 3rd so I'm not using any of those suggestions (but this is a great reason for my to get it.) Yes, she's doing it in one semester. She has to average 37 pages per week over 21 weeks in HOAW. We are incorporating some of the reading suggestions from the first edition of WTM. eg last week she read The Epic of Gilgamesh, but since she is now a full week behind (meaning she'll be going into the summer) it is going to take a bit before she gets to that in the HOAW--it was going to be much closer together. She is behind due to lollygagging more than anything else. Her middle name ought to have been Lollygagger as she has always been like this.

 

I haven't even looked at the Bible books classification via WEM. Dd is going to an OT history course I have on tape. She is not my history buff. My second dd is going to take a full year for this & do it in gr 8 because she loves history.

 

ETA Don't feel badly for the confusion. It took me awhile to get you separated from another Colleen on the forum, too. There are so many people here!

Edited February 15, 2010 by Karin