OhElizabeth, can you share more about the philosophy of "overteaching"?

[Jennefer@SSA]

I thought about PMing regarding this but then decided to ask here b/c I thought others may be interested in learning more, too. :)

 

You mentioned the concept of overteaching in a math thread recently. (And I should add that I may not be remembering exactly what it is called. Apologies in advance if I'm using an incorrect term). I would love to learn more.

 

I have realized that I have somewhat done ds8 a disservice in this area when it comes to math. He has flown through all his math until recently. Now that we are up to more advance concepts where he is working multi-step problems issues are starting to creep in. Problems that may not have arisen if I had spent more time in the younger years really solidifying concepts and skills and not just pushing on ahead b/c he was making 100% on all his papers. When it comes to math, he has always gotten the "what and how" but I am wishing I had spent more time developing the "why". I also wish I would have spent more time working on basic drill math facts so that in these long problems a simple error wouldn't force him to rework a 4 step problem. :001_huh:

 

I think about when dh was starting to teach me tennis. He talked about muscle memory and that I had to hit 100's and even 1000's of balls over and over with correct form so that I could begin to do it automatically without even having to think about it. Is this "overteaching" in a nutshell?

 

Also, what curriculum areas does this apply to? I am now rethinking other areas. We dropped FLL in the younger years b/c it.was.just.so.much.repetition. I chose to wait and do JAG and AG in the older years. But does the concept of overteaching apply here too? Would it have been better to stick with grammar in the younger years and just pluck through it slowly?? Hmmm... Now I'm thinking out loud. :D

 

All this to say, I would love to hear your thoughts on this...or invite anyone else to the party who has an opinion in the matter. I am about to start Kinder with my 5yo in the fall and looking at all we've done right as well as where we may have gotten off course with my oldest. This is something that has just been on my mind since I read that initial post of yours.

 

TIA

Edited February 7, 2010 by Jennefer@SSA
typo

[Closeacademy]

:lurk5:

 

I'd like to hear more about this concept as well. I can tell that I messed up in math with my oldest by letting her fly through the Singapore Math books because she could do the work in the workbook rather than spending more time on concepts to make sure the foundation of skills were solid before we moved on.

[Allearia]

:lurk5:

[kathkath]

I taught 1st grade for 8 years and I understand where you're coming from in wanting to know more about "overteaching." From my perspective it seems you are most interested in fluency, right?? I suppose you can look for a fluency goal for every subject area. The best way to build fluency in reading is lots of practice reading and rereading text at the student's independent level. The inherent risk in overteaching is making the repetition boring, so I think if fluency is the goal then it would be a good idea to have your child approach the content in different ways rather than repeating the same old same old. In reading that could look like doing readers' theatre plays with other people, or simply piquing an interest in some chapter books that are at (not higher than) his/her reading level and motivating them to want to do it on their own. In math for fact practice I would look at doing some creative ways of practicing. You also seem to want greater understanding of what is going on too, and fact practice alone won't teach that. Something you might want to get on interlibrary loan are the marilyn burns math replacement units and go through a few of those for fun. Yes it will be *easy* for an 8yo, but that is a way to reteach concepts and he can get practice problem solving while polishing his skills on material that isn't so challenging.

[Dana]

I teach algebra at the community college and see a huge number of students who understand the material when I do examples in class (that is, they can follow along, claim understanding, and can answer my questions & tell me the next steps in a problem and even why we are doing a step), but then they bomb the tests because they're not doing the practice on their own.

 

I use the example that I "understood" how to parallel park and how to drive a clutch, but it took a lot of practice to be able to do it. Understanding didn't mean much without the ability to do the work.

 

So I cringe when I see people talking about only using the workbook with Singapore math. It may work with some students. But with my son, I'm going to be darn sure that he has the basics down and solid. We do the textbook together (mostly verbally), he does the workbook and Intensive Practice. We do the Challenging Word Problems, and work from other books as I feel there's a need.

 

I'm interested in hearing the other discussion. And I'm coming from seeing students in my college classes who have passed higher-level math courses in high school, but the placement test puts them back in basic algebra because although they may have understanding, they don't have the skills.

[Sweetbabe]

:lurk5:I just started out with my boys, currently at the stage of buy everything, do everything, move move move... This thread is an eye opener, would like to listen in.

[melissel]

:lurk5: I am always interested in what OhE has to say.

[Jen500]

With many subjects, I have discussions with my dc. I encourage discussion and exploration of the topic, and look for curriculum that encourages this. So, we don't just read the text or book and then do the worksheet or whatever. Sometimes there is a fine line between rabbit trails and deeper understanding of the topic. I wouldn't call this 'overteaching' though.

[Guest]

I'd second the poster above who recommended Marilyn Burns. I went through nearly all of her books with my daughter, and they are absolutely stellar for teaching understanding of concepts and why things work, vs. memorizing a formula and applying it. I was always "good" at math but never understood how it worked until I went through these books with my child -- and we started later, going back over things she thought she knew, to go for depth of knowledge.

 

Also, we went through Peggy Kaye's great book of "Games for Math." These are basically ways of solidifying computational skills in a fun way. My daughter would ask to play games from the book just for fun, outside of "math" time. They reinforce addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, etc. in easy but engaging ways. Usually Peggy Kaye's books can be found in libraries.

 

I'd be wary of the equation between anything physical -- "muscle memory" -- and anything intellectual. You can certainly get to the point of easy and automatic recall with computation; but other than that, I think the analogy falls apart. There have been a number of brain studies that show the difference between ingraining a physical response and honing thinking skills; they are simply not comparable after the initial level of things like automatically recognizing letters of the alphabet or basic math facts.

 

And math takes in much more than this, particularly as you get further into it. I'd suggest taking time to play spatial games that lots of threads discuss: games like chess, Set, Gobblet, RushHour. My daughter also loved Zoombinis, a logic computer game with a number of levels-- however, it is old and I'm not sure it runs on newer computers any more (which is a big loss). Activities like this don't have a straightforward relationship to textbook math, but they seem to promote a child's abilities to think mathematically nonetheless. And they're fun.

[Mandy in TN]

Is this the original post?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1451892&postcount=6

 

Mandy

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I teach algebra at the community college and see a huge number of students who understand the material when I do examples in class (that is, they can follow along, claim understanding, and can answer my questions & tell me the next steps in a problem and even why we are doing a step), but then they bomb the tests because they're not doing the practice on their own.

 

I use the example that I "understood" how to parallel park and how to drive a clutch, but it took a lot of practice to be able to do it. Understanding didn't mean much without the ability to do the work.

 

So I cringe when I see people talking about only using the workbook with Singapore math. It may work with some students. But with my son, I'm going to be darn sure that he has the basics down and solid. We do the textbook together (mostly verbally), he does the workbook and Intensive Practice. We do the Challenging Word Problems, and work from other books as I feel there's a need.

 

I'm interested in hearing the other discussion. And I'm coming from seeing students in my college classes who have passed higher-level math courses in high school, but the placement test puts them back in basic algebra because although they may have understanding, they don't have the skills.

 

:iagree:

I struggle with the fine line of doing enough or over-kill;)

 

I currently have him do all of the problems in the book for the lesson so as to cement his understanding even though it comes easy for him. I do try to make it fun by using the white board for part of the lesson. I have him explain how he figured out a problem occasionally. I also use online games to cement facts at times.

 

I also think it is helpful to re-visit skills periodically to help re-enforce learning. I also plan to continue with some schooling even during the summer since last summer I was shocked at how much he forgot over the summer:001_huh:

 

With Singapore, which I love, I agree that it should be used with the textbook, workbook, Extra Practice or Intensive Practice, and Challenging Word Problem books.

[MariannNOVA]

I taught 1st grade for 8 years and I understand where you're coming from in wanting to know more about "overteaching." From my perspective it seems you are most interested in fluency, right?? I suppose you can look for a fluency goal for every subject area. The best way to build fluency in reading is lots of practice reading and rereading text at the student's independent level. The inherent risk in overteaching is making the repetition boring, so I think if fluency is the goal then it would be a good idea to have your child approach the content in different ways rather than repeating the same old same old. In reading that could look like doing readers' theatre plays with other people, or simply piquing an interest in some chapter books that are at (not higher than) his/her reading level and motivating them to want to do it on their own. In math for fact practice I would look at doing some creative ways of practicing. You also seem to want greater understanding of what is going on too, and fact practice alone won't teach that. Something you might want to get on interlibrary loan are the marilyn burns math replacement units and go through a few of those for fun. Yes it will be *easy* for an 8yo, but that is a way to reteach concepts and he can get practice problem solving while polishing his skills on material that isn't so challenging.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: As a former classroom teacher, there are such good points made here! The two items I've highlighted in red above are excellent suggestions and the beauty of homeschooling is that they are much more likely to happen with one, two, or three children than say 18 or 24 children. BUT, I always made certain my class had the benefit of RT and MB and the level of understanding in my class always showed.

[PeterPan]

Jennefer, I think you're getting exactly what it means to overteach. You do it beyond what they "need" till you get to the point where it's easy, so easy they can do it in their sleep, backward and forward. You wouldn't do this for content subjects, only skills, and it means different things for different subjects. For LA stuff, you do the same thing, gently but repeatedly, in new and interesting contexts, for years on end till you're sure it has stuck. In math, you don't have that luxury, like you do with commas or something, of knowing you'll come back to it, so you work it a bit more.

 

How much? I just go by my gut. I suggest you use yours. There's just really nothing more to rely on than your objective, gut assessment of where your dc is at and what would benefit them. I just say don't be AFRAID to give them more work.

 

Don't live in the past or worrying that you've messed something up. He's only 8! I remember where I was at 8, and I certainly hadn't learned all the things your boy has. There are so many paths to the same place. As long as you pick a path and follow it, implementing the plan, you'll be FINE. If you get there and you screwed up on something, oh well, fix it. There are plenty of horror stories that come across the boards here with people who failed to teach xyz skill or content or whatever to their terribly old, obviously irrepairably damaged dc. They do a quick catch-up course with their now older dc and are back on track. Sure you're gonna screw up something, but you'll see that and fix it. Nothing here is irrepairable, life and death, blood and war, kwim? So feel free to screw something up. Nuts, pick your subject. Do a few things well, a few things average, and then just decide you're flopping at something, and let it be. A few years from now you can change that and do better at that problem subject. :)

 

So yes, overteaching is good. It's about not being afraid to give them as much work as they need really to master the subject. It's about not getting caught up in what someone else said their kid did, at what rate or age. I think my girl is on the bright end of average with some things. Nuts, I'm on that side of average with things. So I've always figured if I didn't get it, maybe someone else didn't either. And if my kid needs that practice, I'm guessing some other kids do too. If some people on the boards have kids whose brains soak up oddball bits of trivia like math facts or spelling and don't NEED to do any repetition, good for them. But that's just not reality for most kids. Understanding and proficiency, being so good at it you can do it in your sleep, that step comes with more work. Don't be afraid to work them. If they need the work, don't be afraid to slow down the pace to give them the time. It's such a fine line to walk, kwim?

 

I've done that thing, rushing at points, slowing down or regretting it at others. Don't live there. Just decide your best course of action and fix whatever you're dealing with, trusting your gut assessment. You may have made the RIGHT decision at the time going faster or skipping things, just as it's as much the RIGHT decision later to slow down and nail things. See sometimes what you're really doing is going through those basic things and covering them all more quickly, skipping the repetition, and then slowing down when you've finally given them all the components to see the big picture. See, it's actually intentional at the point. It's not that you did something wrong, but that you're implementing your plan. If your plan was just introducing with FLL and then using things contextually until JAG, cool, work the plan. It will turn out FINE! I personally wouldn't consider grammar in the same category as math for needing overteaching and drill, but that's just me. A dab will do you in grammar, and a little bit done consistently, into their mature/analytical/thinking years, will go a long way.

[Colleen in NS]

Problems that may not have arisen if I had spent more time in the younger years really solidifying concepts and skills and not just pushing on ahead b/c he was making 100% on all his papers. When it comes to math, he has always gotten the "what and how" but I am wishing I had spent more time developing the "why". I also wish I would have spent more time working on basic drill math facts so that in these long problems a simple error wouldn't force him to rework a 4 step problem. :001_huh:

 

Would it have been better to stick with grammar in the younger years and just pluck through it slowly??

 

This happened when my ds was in grade 3, with math, too. He loved math in general, but I realized that I had not spent enough time helping him memorize math facts. Nor had I used any real math program, I just let him fly through a workbook. So I just stopped and spent time on math facts, then got a program with a thorough TM that told me how to teach math. I worried for awhile about it, but it's 3 years later and he has done fine. Dd is 9 now, and she is running into math concepts that are a little harder, and it just takes more time to patiently work through it with her.

 

And, I don't know WHY I never paid attention to this before just a few months ago, but math games and activities really are helpful. I've gone gung ho with searching for library books on math concepts and activities, and it has been a lot of fun to use some of them. A current favourite series that I found is by Marion Smoothey - each title begins with "Let's Investigate..." So, the whole math thing has been a learning curve for me. I am glad ds loved math enough that he didn't struggle very much because of my lack of teaching and drill, and I'm glad I started a more formal program with dd when she was younger. And I'm glad to have finally clued in to the fact that extra games/activities can reinforce or make math concepts more easily understood.

 

For some reason, I was more focused on the language side of things in their younger grades, so I did stick with FLL for 1st and 2nd grade. It made R&S 3, 4, etc. easier, because they already knew the definitions of parts of speech, which made learning the concepts in R&S easier. (although dd is currently forgetting her definitions, so I need to work on that with her again) Whenever FLL got too repetitious for a particular child, I just assessed individually what he or she needed, and skipped or did a quick once-over that day.

[Halcyon]

I have to echo OhElizabeth on knowing your facts "backwards and forwards". We're backing up slightly to Sing 2B right now because before 3A I want to be sure my son knows his math facts cold, and feels comfortable 'playing' with numbers, and move him away from just 'getting the answer'. We're playing a lot of games, dice games, etc and recently found a really fun book on amazon called 25 Super Cool Math Board Games which we are going to work through. My son LOVES games of any kind and he always asks to play these games, and they cement his skills. I hope before the summer that he knows his facts, particularly his multiplication facts, cold. But like most young children, there are only so many worksheets he wants to do, so finding games is critical.

[laughing lioness]

I learned the distinction between overview and mastery a couple of years ago (with a nod to Leigh Bortiens) and it changed how we homeschool. This is why we hit memory work so hard. All of us (I'm assuming literacy) have the ABC's memorized. We know each letter sound by rote. We don't even have to think about it. That's true mastery. My 10 yo, right now, knows how to multiply and divide and can do several fraction exercises but he is still skip counting at times when he multiples and divides - he doesn't have mastery even though he has quite a bit of math overviewed.

 

This concept is also one of the reasons we participate so heavily in drama. To do drama really well, the performers need to have the play overlearned. Lines and blocking memorized. Overview won't cut it during a performance in front of 300 people.

 

If the kids commit thousands of facts to memory during the grammar stage then they when they get to the logic and rheotric stage they have a lot of information to draw on.

[PeterPan]

Just to be clear, I personally wasn't discussing math facts as part of this overlearning. They're a totally separate beast. I give my dd math charts, have her drill daily, and move on. They come with that practice that is part of overlearning, but I'm not stopping her forward movement to get them. That might work for some kids, kids who can learn things in isolation, but it won't work for others. Again, I chose to use my gut. If she can do the math assignments forward and backward, in a reasonable and comfortable amount of time, then clearly she has as much proficiency in the math facts as she needs at that point. It's like spelling. I expect improvement, not perfection.

[Tam101]

I'm interested in hearing the other discussion. And I'm coming from seeing students in my college classes who have passed higher-level math courses in high school, but the placement test puts them back in basic algebra because although they may have understanding, they don't have the skills.

 

I don't have anything to add, but wanted to say that that happened to me. When I got to college the placement test put into Pre-Algerba! After I got over the humiliation and aced the class I was jumped back up to Calculus. I always wondered why the placement put there, but what you said made sense. Or maybe I just rushed through the test. LOL

 

I'm always fighting with my son on practicing his math. We are working on his multiplication facts right now. This morning he was asking me how to do double digit multiplication. If I had a dime for every time I told him "one thing at time"... Half the time I feel like I'm holding him back, you have reminded me why I need to force him to build slowly and thoroughly. ;)

[Jennefer@SSA]

Is this the original post?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1451892&postcount=6

 

Mandy

 

Yes, that's the one. Thanks! :)

[siloam]

I fall into the over teaching category as well. Mostly because I feel if they have the foundation mastered they can take it anywhere they want to later on.

 

With JAG/AG I am doing it at half pace (half a lesson a day), which stretches out the program, then CW has enough reinforcement to keep the skills in constant use. Later on I will use the AG review book if needed, and I will also pick sentences for them to diagram (maybe by continuing the six sentence shuffle, but have them pick a sentence from their own writing?) if needed to keep it fresh.

 

I agree that FLL is a bit over the top, but I just look at the summary of what is taught. For example if it is covering Proper Nouns and is goes through the concept 2-3 times in that lessons alone, I just ask my kids to give me an example of a common and proper noun. If they do so correctly we move on.

 

With Phonics I am still working on the phonograms with all my kids. :001_huh: Once they have most of the down I do go from covering them daily to weekly, but the rule here is you have to get them all correct 4 weeks in a row in order to go to covering them monthly. That is surprisingly hard for my kids. The oldest two have specific ones that give them fits, so we just continue to review the ones they get wrong daily, and the rest once a week.

 

I also continue to review one of the Aesop grammar flash cards a week, just to be sure my oldest can still rattle off a definition. Once in a while the preposition or linking verbs mess her up, so the review is good.

 

With math the kids play one RS game a day, which reinforces math facts. They also do oral work and written work as laid out in RS. I plan to continue to have even my oldest continue with the games for a few years after she finishes all the RS levels.

 

Another way I slip in reinforcement work, is I continue to have my oldest mark her vocab words in the SWR method. In the next few years she will finish spelling, but this will help keep those skills going beyond that. It really doesn't take her that long to do either.

 

I agree with Oh Elizabeth that you are by no means have really messed things up. Just take a few steps back, and then continue to move forward, just maybe at a little slower pace.

 

Heather

[G5052]

I'm not one to cross out math problems. Even CLE, they do every drill, every math problem, and more drills on areas CLE doesn't drill on like squares and cubes. Same with grammar. They do a lot, and it's hard but it's important. I was more relaxed in K-2nd, but not now in the logic stage.

 

Several years ago I also decided to "overteach" in math and grammar by having them do the same level over the summer, but using a different curriculum, usually something briefer/lighter.

 

And yes, my kids complain, but I know they know their stuff. :D

[Jennefer@SSA]

I taught 1st grade for 8 years and I understand where you're coming from in wanting to know more about "overteaching." From my perspective it seems you are most interested in fluency, right?? I suppose you can look for a fluency goal for every subject area. The best way to build fluency in reading is lots of practice reading and rereading text at the student's independent level. The inherent risk in overteaching is making the repetition boring, so I think if fluency is the goal then it would be a good idea to have your child approach the content in different ways rather than repeating the same old same old. In reading that could look like doing readers' theatre plays with other people, or simply piquing an interest in some chapter books that are at (not higher than) his/her reading level and motivating them to want to do it on their own. In math for fact practice I would look at doing some creative ways of practicing. You also seem to want greater understanding of what is going on too, and fact practice alone won't teach that. Something you might want to get on interlibrary loan are the marilyn burns math replacement units and go through a few of those for fun. Yes it will be *easy* for an 8yo, but that is a way to reteach concepts and he can get practice problem solving while polishing his skills on material that isn't so challenging.

 

I appreciate your distinction between overteach and fluency. The first part I placed in bold is a big reason for why I think I kept moving on and shied away for this idea of overteach...I didn't want him to get bored. Now I see where this may have hurt us more than helped us. I agree that it is important to look for creative ways to reinforce skills to fight this boredom but I think for math at least I am realizing that you just have to do it...again, and again, and again. It's not like a novel where each story is fresh. I do very much like the idea of using games to get more practice in creative ways. I still think (again this is speaking for math mostly) the best thing is just to do it. I am very excited to look into the Marilyn Burns math replacement units as well. Thanks for sharing that resource.

 

 

 

I'd second the poster above who recommended Marilyn Burns. I went through nearly all of her books with my daughter, and they are absolutely stellar for teaching understanding of concepts and why things work, vs. memorizing a formula and applying it. I was always "good" at math but never understood how it worked until I went through these books with my child -- and we started later, going back over things she thought she knew, to go for depth of knowledge.

 

Also, we went through Peggy Kaye's great book of "Games for Math." These are basically ways of solidifying computational skills in a fun way. My daughter would ask to play games from the book just for fun, outside of "math" time. They reinforce addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, etc. in easy but engaging ways. Usually Peggy Kaye's books can be found in libraries.

 

I'd be wary of the equation between anything physical -- "muscle memory" -- and anything intellectual. You can certainly get to the point of easy and automatic recall with computation; but other than that, I think the analogy falls apart. There have been a number of brain studies that show the difference between ingraining a physical response and honing thinking skills; they are simply not comparable after the initial level of things like automatically recognizing letters of the alphabet or basic math facts.

 

And math takes in much more than this, particularly as you get further into it. I'd suggest taking time to play spatial games that lots of threads discuss: games like chess, Set, Gobblet, RushHour. My daughter also loved Zoombinis, a logic computer game with a number of levels-- however, it is old and I'm not sure it runs on newer computers any more (which is a big loss). Activities like this don't have a straightforward relationship to textbook math, but they seem to promote a child's abilities to think mathematically nonetheless. And they're fun.

 

Thanks for the Peggy Kaye resource. I am looking forward to checking that out. And thanks also for the game suggestions. There are really 2 things I brought up and you addressed both: (1) doing better at developing the "why" which is somewhat entails building mathematical thinking and problem-solving and (2) building computation skills.

 

And I agree that the muscle memory analogy breaks down quickly. It's just the only way I could think to relate it to something in my life. :)

[Jennefer@SSA]

I'm not one to cross out math problems. Even CLE, they do every drill, every math problem, and more drills on areas CLE doesn't drill on like squares and cubes. Same with grammar. They do a lot, and it's hard but it's important. I was more relaxed in K-2nd, but not now in the logic stage.

 

Several years ago I also decided to "overteach" in math and grammar by having them do the same level over the summer, but using a different curriculum, usually something briefer/lighter.

 

And yes, my kids complain, but I know they know their stuff. :D

 

Guilty, guilty, guilty! I have let ds cross off problems in his Horizons books for years now once he has shown proficiency (at the time what I considered mastery) in an area. I will not make the same mistake with ds5 once he gets there.

[Jennefer@SSA]

Jennefer, I think you're getting exactly what it means to overteach. You do it beyond what they "need" till you get to the point where it's easy, so easy they can do it in their sleep, backward and forward. You wouldn't do this for content subjects, only skills, and it means different things for different subjects. For LA stuff, you do the same thing, gently but repeatedly, in new and interesting contexts, for years on end till you're sure it has stuck. In math, you don't have that luxury, like you do with commas or something, of knowing you'll come back to it, so you work it a bit more.

 

How much? I just go by my gut. I suggest you use yours. There's just really nothing more to rely on than your objective, gut assessment of where your dc is at and what would benefit them. I just say don't be AFRAID to give them more work.

 

Don't live in the past or worrying that you've messed something up. He's only 8! I remember where I was at 8, and I certainly hadn't learned all the things your boy has. There are so many paths to the same place. As long as you pick a path and follow it, implementing the plan, you'll be FINE. If you get there and you screwed up on something, oh well, fix it. There are plenty of horror stories that come across the boards here with people who failed to teach xyz skill or content or whatever to their terribly old, obviously irreparably damaged dc. They do a quick catch-up course with their now older dc and are back on track. Sure you're gonna screw up something, but you'll see that and fix it. Nothing here is irreparable, life and death, blood and war, kwim? So feel free to screw something up. Nuts, pick your subject. Do a few things well, a few things average, and then just decide you're flopping at something, and let it be. A few years from now you can change that and do better at that problem subject. :)

 

So yes, overteaching is good. It's about not being afraid to give them as much work as they need really to master the subject. It's about not getting caught up in what someone else said their kid did, at what rate or age. I think my girl is on the bright end of average with some things. Nuts, I'm on that side of average with things. So I've always figured if I didn't get it, maybe someone else didn't either. And if my kid needs that practice, I'm guessing some other kids do too. If some people on the boards have kids whose brains soak up oddball bits of trivia like math facts or spelling and don't NEED to do any repetition, good for them. But that's just not reality for most kids. Understanding and proficiency, being so good at it you can do it in your sleep, that step comes with more work. Don't be afraid to work them. If they need the work, don't be afraid to slow down the pace to give them the time. It's such a fine line to walk, kwim?

 

I've done that thing, rushing at points, slowing down or regretting it at others. Don't live there. Just decide your best course of action and fix whatever you're dealing with, trusting your gut assessment. You may have made the RIGHT decision at the time going faster or skipping things, just as it's as much the RIGHT decision later to slow down and nail things. See sometimes what you're really doing is going through those basic things and covering them all more quickly, skipping the repetition, and then slowing down when you've finally given them all the components to see the big picture. See, it's actually intentional at the point. It's not that you did something wrong, but that you're implementing your plan. If your plan was just introducing with FLL and then using things contextually until JAG, cool, work the plan. It will turn out FINE! I personally wouldn't consider grammar in the same category as math for needing overteaching and drill, but that's just me. A dab will do you in grammar, and a little bit done consistently, into their mature/analytical/thinking years, will go a long way.

 

Thank you for that. Thanks for the explanation, clarification and the encouragement. I know that different things will stick out for different people depending on where they are in their journey and struggles they are currently facing but I placed in bold the parts that really hit me right where I am. I appreciate your time and insight!

[Guest]

I, too, cross off math problems. But I don't plan to stop. My daughter tried out "real" school for the first time last fall, a very nice private school that gave her a scholarship. She was getting an A in algebra, which had tons of homework. One day she opened her book to do her homework and began to cry; she went on to have a full-scale breakdown. At age thirteen. (She's back home with me now.)

 

So what I write is necessarily colored by this: I want my child to regain a love of learning, more than I want her to finish every problem in the book so that she masters a particular mathematical content strand or operation. I want her to trust her own knowledge of how she learns and when she knows something. She's nearly fourteen, she's extremely bright, she's very serious, and she thinks things through. I respect her mind. She said all along that school algebra was "too easy" for her and that the practice assigned was too much for her because of that. She was ready to move on, through this part of the course at least, much more quickly. Yes, there were still problems she couldn't figure out. Yes, there were still gaps in her working knowledge.

 

But this child has a history of very non-sequential learning. She learned basic algebraic equations from interest, long before she mastered percents and decimals. She learned to multiply before she could reliably subtract 7 from 10, or even before she could accurately count out objects by hand. She was draw to prime numbers at an early age. Some things she just gets, almost by osmosis. And her particular bent seems to be more for theoretical math than for how math is presented in textbooks. So I have her explain to me how she gets her answers, or ask her how she would go about setting up a problem, rather than have her work through every single one. Sometimes I let her pick problems, and she'll almost always pick the hardest ones.

 

So although some, even many, kids may do well with overteaching, this is a very tricky business indeed! I think the important things are: to know your child, and to think about mastery in a larger context. There is a magical middle ground somewhere that balances mathematical exploration and creativity with mastery of problem-solving approaches or techniques; that gives enough practice and repetition to make kids competent without turning them off to math; that exposes them to applied math but also to theory. I certainly haven't found it, and as a non-mathematician I only know that my own ability to get As through calculus and feel fairly confident with math operations hasn't given me a deeper understanding of how and why some people find it so fun, infinitely fascinating. I'd like to be the kind of person who sees math as a kind of intellectual playground as well as an important and useful tool for thinking about how the world works. And that's what I'd like for my daughter, too.

 

I have a child whose natural interest in certain aspects of math was crushed by an emphasis on "rigor" defined as doing every problem in the book. This is not to say that kids should only do as much math as they want to, or that they should not have any drill whatever or be taught with rigor. It's just that I wouldn't want to see what happened to my child happen to anyone else; and there are so many ways to engage kids in math, to make it interesting and fun. Mastery can happen through many different paths.

[kathkath]

oh yes Peggy Kaye is fabulous too. Also, there are scads of different games that can be played with a regular deck of playing cards (or skip-bo cards if you prefer not to involve traditional cards) that are fun and great for drill.

[3andme]

Here is an interesting article by a cognitive scientist, Daniel Willingham, regarding this specific topic.

 

Practice Makes Perfect--But Only If You Practice Beyond the Point of Perfection

 

The author has also written a book Why Don't Students Like School? which is an excellent survey of the latest cognitive research and its implications for education.

[Jennefer@SSA]

I, too, cross off math problems. But I don't plan to stop. My daughter tried out "real" school for the first time last fall, a very nice private school that gave her a scholarship. She was getting an A in algebra, which had tons of homework. One day she opened her book to do her homework and began to cry; she went on to have a full-scale breakdown. At age thirteen. (She's back home with me now.)

 

So what I write is necessarily colored by this: I want my child to regain a love of learning, more than I want her to finish every problem in the book so that she masters a particular mathematical content strand or operation. I want her to trust her own knowledge of how she learns and when she knows something. She's nearly fourteen, she's extremely bright, she's very serious, and she thinks things through. I respect her mind. She said all along that school algebra was "too easy" for her and that the practice assigned was too much for her because of that. She was ready to move on, through this part of the course at least, much more quickly. Yes, there were still problems she couldn't figure out. Yes, there were still gaps in her working knowledge.

 

But this child has a history of very non-sequential learning. She learned basic algebraic equations from interest, long before she mastered percents and decimals. She learned to multiply before she could reliably subtract 7 from 10, or even before she could accurately count out objects by hand. She was draw to prime numbers at an early age. Some things she just gets, almost by osmosis. And her particular bent seems to be more for theoretical math than for how math is presented in textbooks. So I have her explain to me how she gets her answers, or ask her how she would go about setting up a problem, rather than have her work through every single one. Sometimes I let her pick problems, and she'll almost always pick the hardest ones.

 

So although some, even many, kids may do well with overteaching, this is a very tricky business indeed! I think the important things are: to know your child, and to think about mastery in a larger context. There is a magical middle ground somewhere that balances mathematical exploration and creativity with mastery of problem-solving approaches or techniques; that gives enough practice and repetition to make kids competent without turning them off to math; that exposes them to applied math but also to theory. I certainly haven't found it, and as a non-mathematician I only know that my own ability to get As through calculus and feel fairly confident with math operations hasn't given me a deeper understanding of how and why some people find it so fun, infinitely fascinating. I'd like to be the kind of person who sees math as a kind of intellectual playground as well as an important and useful tool for thinking about how the world works. And that's what I'd like for my daughter, too.

 

I have a child whose natural interest in certain aspects of math was crushed by an emphasis on "rigor" defined as doing every problem in the book. This is not to say that kids should only do as much math as they want to, or that they should not have any drill whatever or be taught with rigor. It's just that I wouldn't want to see what happened to my child happen to anyone else; and there are so many ways to engage kids in math, to make it interesting and fun. Mastery can happen through many different paths.

 

I appreciate your post and thoughts. Here are a few of my thoughts...in no particular order. ;)

 

You are dealing with what sounds to be a very self-aware 13 year old and I with a very not self-aware 8 yo. I think ds is bright, very bright in some areas to be sure, but not gifted. Your dd may truly lean towards the gifted side.

 

Also I agree that rigor is not equal to loads and loads of work for the sake of work. There is actually another great thread going right now talking about some of the issue of rigor vs. busywork which addresses some of this.

 

Finally I appreciated what OhElizabeth shared in her post earlier in the thread:

 

How much? I just go by my gut. I suggest you use yours. There's just really nothing more to rely on than your objective, gut assessment of where your dc is at and what would benefit them. I just say don't be AFRAID to give them more work.

 

It sounds like you know exactly what your dd needs and I think that's great. You bring up good points that more work doesn't equate "overteach" just like more work doesn't equal rigor. It looks different for each child. What is good and helpful "overteach" for one is simply "overkill" to another. :D

 

It sounds like you have found a great balance for your dd. I hope I can find the same with my ds!!

[PeterPan]

Some curricula are not MEANT to have the student do every problem. The BJU upper levels, for instance, are only meant for the dc to do about half. The tm specifies how many in which problem levels (A, B, C). If a teacher assigns ALL the problems, they'd actually be doing way more than the curriculum developer ever intended. As you say, I think sometimes some teachers do that kind of overkill, with good intentions. That's very different from someone who picks up an elementary curriculum like Horizons or CLE that has a lot of practice, but an amount that is all meant to be done in one lesson as designed by the curriculum developer, and then has to decide if they're going to have the dc do the full lesson or not. In the one case, you were SUPPOSED to do select problems. In the other, you're SUPPOSED to do the full lesson.

 

What we've been talking about in here is not being afraid to do the full, normal lesson when a kid needs it. Not every dc does, but it's easy to misjudge. I think a little common sense and watching for that overlearning, that ability to do it easily and in their sleep, gives you a good sense of where they're at. No body is talking about being mean or going beyond that point just to say you did. And absolutely it's crazy to go into a junior high or high school level text and require all the problems if the curriculum developer didn't intend that. I know BJU doesn't, and my guess is others are the same.

[Mandy in TN]

Here is an interesting article by a cognitive scientist, Daniel Willingham, regarding this specific topic.

 

Practice Makes Perfect--But Only If You Practice Beyond the Point of Perfection

 

The author has also written a book Why Don't Students Like School? which is an excellent survey of the latest cognitive research and its implications for education.

Thanks for this.

Mandy

[Woodland_Mom]

I totally get the overteaching worry. One day we're boring our children to death with something they seemingly have mastered and the next, they seem overwhelmed by new material! How can that be?

 

IMO, this is where classical education can be our friend! Remember: A child at the age of 8 is in the grammar stage. This stage is meant to be foundational: they're memorizing lots of information (i.e. math facts, states & capitals, spelling rules, etc.) Kids at this age are GOOD at memorizing things and generally enjoy it. It is important for grammar stage students to master the basics, then when they are a little older (and moving into the dialectic stages of learning) he will be ready to delve a little deeper in subjects.

 

Just because a student has his math facts mastered, does not mean he is ready mentally/developmentally to begin math problems that require a deeper understanding of math concepts. It's like reading. You may have a child who has been able to read fluently since she was 6 years old. That does not mean that we hand her "The Scarlet Letter" because she's capable of reading the words on the page.

 

Like you, I have been reminded about the importance of letting the foundation "cure" before I set other building blocks on top of it. About 3 months ago we went through the very same thing you're describing! My son (9 yrs.) uses Horizons math also. I was ready to change math programs when I noticed that he was struggling with new concept after new concept. Then . . . I thought, "Ya know. He just needs more time where he's been. I need to help him with the tough things, and we'll stay there until he's ready to move on." That was difficult for me, because it threw off our tidy little schedule and made me "feel" like we weren't progressing. I've now learned that slowing down in math does not equal "no progress." There is PLENTY of time for higher math. Like a Previous poster said, don't beat yourself up over this. Use your gut instincts and either back up just a bit or begin taking things a little more slowly. It is wonderful that you seem so in tune with your children. You are right: "Overteaching" can become boring and reduntant, but it's better than the hardship of encountering things that are too big a stretch. Slow and steady wins the race!!!

 

Best wishes to you!

Edited February 8, 2010 by Pylegang
spelling error

[Strawberry Queen]

What I've done to slow things down at times is to make regular review part of the day. I use SM and their review is just not enough for my dd. I borrowed an idea from Math on the Level. I have her do one problem of each type she hasn't mastered up to 5 problems in a day. This allows her to practice one each day for a few weeks. This has helped cement things through regular exposure, rather than doing 2 full pages over a day or two and then forgetting it later on. I have an extra practice book for this purpose. I just highlight the problems and she does them. It works well and is not too overwhelming. It also allows her to progress slowly through her other work. :001_smile:

 

HTH

[Sara R]

It sounds like you are thinking about mastery (or "automaticity") the same way I think of it. I am an amateur organ player for my church, and I didn't practice enough when I was a kid, so I really need to practice now. I have found that if I practice enough to play the hymn correctly only once at home, that is not enough for an error-free performance on Sunday. On Sunday I am distracted by many other things, and my nerves get to me somewhat, and I need to drill that piece so I overlearn it. If I can play it error-free seven consecutive times, I am ready for Sunday.

 

I've found that my son needs more math practice than I was giving him before. My son is bright in math (about 2 grade levels ahead). He also has the gifted/perfectionist personality: if learning didn't come easily to him, he thought he was stupid. At the same time, too much practice was boring.

 

By the time he was getting to long division and fractions in Singapore, it was clear that he needed more practice than Singapore was giving him. He would forget the next step for adding fractions, and he would get frustrated and cry.

 

So we talked about how he needed practice--everyone does. If he practices enough, he'll be able to do the easier math without thinking about it*, which means he'll have the mental capacity to concentrate on the harder math coming up.

 

*Do not confuse automaticity (doing the algorithm without thinking about it) with doing algorithms without conceptual understanding. Conceptual understanding is also important. My son doesn't struggle with that part, thanks to Singapore. When you master something so much that you can do it without thinking, it doesn't mean that you forget the conceptual understanding. I can do long division without thinking about it, but I still understand what I'm doing.

 

At first we switched him to R&S to give him more practice. Now we are doing a homebrew Kumon program. I think in a few months he'll be ready to switch back to Singapore.

[MeganW]

I am wondering what to do if my kids are like me. I can't remember ANYTHING long-term. Don't know why - I just can't.

 

I have VERY FEW multiplication facts memorized. I am really fast at figuring them out (9x6 is 10x6 - 6) and that sort of thing. But I have to do that for everything. Memorization is just a real weakness, especially if I know I can figure it out in another way.

 

What do I do if one of my kids turns out to be like this? Do I still try to force memorization?

 

How? Is there some way to teach memorization that somehow I missed along the way??

[PeterPan]

Megan, I got through calculus without knowing my multiplication tables. ;) When I skip count with my ds (yes, I do this), I have to sit there calculating it, hehe... But you know, I'm getting faster! So that's my suggestion. Start skip-counting with all of them, every single day. In the time it takes to change a diaper, I can do all the skip counts from 2's all the way to 12's (12X12). That's not too much effort, and I do think over time it will reap rewards. I think I waited too long to start with my dd and wish I had started much earlier. She uses a multiplication table, which not only gives visual input (for visual learners), but lets them see relationships with the numbers. She's really quite fast with it and calculates all sorts of bizarre things I would never figure out that way, which to me means she understands the math really well, kwim? So I wouldn't sweat it. You're going to do some practice, skip count together, get a Flashmaster, play games, just a variety of stuff, and sooner or later it will click. Or put it on the bathroom walls.

[Mom-ninja.]

I've put a couple more books on my wish list thanks to this thread.

[angela in ohio]

A parent's role in teaching grammar skills (classical, not English grammar) is to teach dc ways to memorize information effectively and to find ways to make repetition palatable and stimulating. If we spend our time working on that instead of wasting time trying to get logic skills out of kiddos that aren't ready for it -- either because of age or because they don't have the grammar down yet -- we will be well rewarded. :001_smile:

 

The educational-ize term for this is automaticity, and I think many homeschoolers miss the value of it. For example: "There's no point in teaching grammar every year. You can just wait until they are in 8th grade and then teach them everything in a few months." This ignores the importance of mastery and the value of repetition.

[SophiaH]

*Do not confuse automaticity (doing the algorithm without thinking about it) with doing algorithms without conceptual understanding. Conceptual understanding is also important. My son doesn't struggle with that part, thanks to Singapore. When you master something so much that you can do it without thinking, it doesn't mean that you forget the conceptual understanding. I can do long division without thinking about it, but I still understand what I'm doing.

 

 

Thanks for stating this. This is something I've been mulling over the last week, and you helped me put words to it. :)

[Jennefer@SSA]

The educational-ize term for this is automaticity, and I think many homeschoolers miss the value of it. For example: "There's no point in teaching grammar every year. You can just wait until they are in 8th grade and then teach them everything in a few months." This ignores the importance of mastery and the value of repetition.

 

Angela, I am glad you chimed in about grammar specifically. What originally started for me as analyzing my successes and mistakes in math with my oldest has bled over into other areas, grammar being one.

 

If I adopt this philosophy of overteach (with the goal of it leading towards automaticity) in math, to what other subject areas does this apply? And that got me thinking about my decision to delay the start of formal grammar. We have been doing incindental grammar though spelling and copywork for years though.

 

Here was my line of thinking: Math cannot be mastered in a few months. It would border on ludicrous to think so. So we start math early and plug away year and year. So if grammar truly can be mastered in a short amount of time (based on the authors of JAG and AG) wouldn't it be a more efficient use of my time to wait on that?

 

Anyway that was my thinking before but now I am asking myself if I still hold to that. So can I ask you based on the part of your quote I placed in bold, do you not believe that a delayed start to grammar will lead to mastery? When I say a delayed start, I am talking 5th grade, I should add. Do you disagree with the premise of JAG/AG?

 

Math and grammar are different animals in so many ways. Math is much more concrete - you can show 2 plus 2 equals 4 with teddy bears. Grammar is much more abstract for the young mind. You can't show it the same way you can in math.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this: Is grammar a different beast when it comes to overteach and automaticity for the young child ~ grammar stage based on WTM?

[Capt_Uhura]

What I have found to be helpful w/ automaticity is review. We are currently doing Daily Math Review pdfs which someone here posted a link to it. It's perfect. Everyday, a multidigit addition, multidigit subtraction, multidigit multiplication, long division, a clock, a word problem....I find this keeps the knife sharp and not let it dull over time. We don't have any analog clocks in the house and while my DS6 seems to have mastered that, after about 4 months, he has to *think* about the time rather than just knowing it. So while if my DC does the first 10 problems right w/ no questions, I might let him skip the last 5, BUT I found that he needs to have repetition especially if the topics he's currently using doesn't involve that topic. This is getting less of an issue in the middle of RS E since the problems involve multi-digit addition, as well division, and then must also convert that mixed fraction to a decimal and convert percents to decimals....but after all that, it does him good to do a multi-digit subtraction problem just to keep that strong, as well as do an elapsed time word problem.

[Melissa in CA]

I teach algebra at the community college and see a huge number of students who understand the material when I do examples in class (that is, they can follow along, claim understanding, and can answer my questions & tell me the next steps in a problem and even why we are doing a step), but then they bomb the tests because they're not doing the practice on their own.

 

I use the example that I "understood" how to parallel park and how to drive a clutch, but it took a lot of practice to be able to do it. Understanding didn't mean much without the ability to do the work.

 

So I cringe when I see people talking about only using the workbook with Singapore math. It may work with some students. But with my son, I'm going to be darn sure that he has the basics down and solid. We do the textbook together (mostly verbally), he does the workbook and Intensive Practice. We do the Challenging Word Problems, and work from other books as I feel there's a need.

 

I'm interested in hearing the other discussion. And I'm coming from seeing students in my college classes who have passed higher-level math courses in high school, but the placement test puts them back in basic algebra because although they may have understanding, they don't have the skills.

 

This is one of the very reasons I think a parent is doing a child a disservice when they are not requiring all the written work in Math and English (only requiring verbal answers, or only doing the odd probelems, etc.). They really truly do need the practice at working out various problems, thinking through the varied steps etc., on their own. Owning thier own knowledge, if that makes any sense.

[MeganW]

Megan, I got through calculus without knowing my multiplication tables. ;) When I skip count with my ds (yes, I do this), I have to sit there calculating it, hehe... But you know, I'm getting faster! So that's my suggestion. Start skip-counting with all of them, every single day. In the time it takes to change a diaper, I can do all the skip counts from 2's all the way to 12's (12X12). That's not too much effort, and I do think over time it will reap rewards. I think I waited too long to start with my dd and wish I had started much earlier. She uses a multiplication table, which not only gives visual input (for visual learners), but lets them see relationships with the numbers. She's really quite fast with it and calculates all sorts of bizarre things I would never figure out that way, which to me means she understands the math really well, kwim? So I wouldn't sweat it. You're going to do some practice, skip count together, get a Flashmaster, play games, just a variety of stuff, and sooner or later it will click. Or put it on the bathroom walls.

 

Yeah, I got through calculus that way too! I wasn't taught this way, but somehow figured out the "mental math" that everyone on this website keeps discussing because I HAD to! (In fact, I didn't understand until I was talking to DH last week that everyone didn't do it that way.)

 

Great suggestions - my kids are FINALLY able to count to a hundred, so we'll start skip counting practice!

[PeterPan]

Just for reference, my ds is 16 months. I skip count with him so he'll memorize it, not because he understands it. K5 emphasizes counting to 100, but that really isn't a hill to die on or something to hold them back for. Skip counting is a totally separate thing, a bunch of memory work that will come back to benefit them later. Kids that age LOVE memorizing and do it with ease, so fill them with the best stuff! My one year old thinks skip counting is hilarious. That means a few years from now he'll rattle these things off like nobody's business, even if it is a while before he knows what they mean. :)

[Colleen in NS]

If I adopt this philosophy of overteach (with the goal of it leading towards automaticity) in math, to what other subject areas does this apply?

 

So if grammar truly can be mastered in a short amount of time (based on the authors of JAG and AG) wouldn't it be a more efficient use of my time to wait on that?

 

do you not believe that a delayed start to grammar will lead to mastery? When I say a delayed start, I am talking 5th grade, I should add. Do you disagree with the premise of JAG/AG?

 

Math and grammar are different animals in so many ways. Math is much more concrete - you can show 2 plus 2 equals 4 with teddy bears. Grammar is much more abstract for the young mind. You can't show it the same way you can in math.

 

I would love to hear thoughts on this: Is grammar a different beast when it comes to overteach and automaticity for the young child ~ grammar stage based on WTM?

 

My thinking on the overteaching has evolved over the past year or so, and it has made me change my thinking from "getting as much content info. in their minds as possible" to "concentrate on teaching skills, day by day, week by week, year by year, using the content of each year as fodder on which to practice." So then I ask myself, what skills? And I decided (for now): how to read, how to spell, math, grammar, Latin, writing, and certain lists/passages from science/history/literature for memory work. I also have on my radar for regular practice (even if not daily or weekly): scientific observation and experiment method, piano, and art skills. I think all of these skills will interact with each other, gradually more and more over the years.

 

Delayed start with grammar: I'd be really reluctant to delay it that long...the earlier grammar practice/p.o.s. memorization really helped ds as he went through R&S 3-5 (currently on 6, which is a jump up from 3-5), and with his writing this year, he is able to quickly see grammatical mistakes when we go over his narrations or outlines. My feeling is that if he hadn't had those few years to really digest some things, he would not be able to easily find his mistakes, and writing would go back to being the dread that it used to be for him. Also, his thinking started to change last year or so...I think if I'd held him off on grammar til grade 5, he would have been VERY impatient with having to learn new concepts, at the same time he was starting to ask "why" about everything. I think earlier grammar training has given him a base for even his reading - I try to help him see how the use of grammar in an author's sentence/paragraph actually affects your thoughts as you read the author's opinion. This is *really* helpful at this age of changing thought processes and questioning of ideas. Because he has the language of the grammar concepts learned so far, we can use that language when talking about his writing, or what he's reading.

 

Now, ds has always been very quick to pick things up, and I am very thankful that my math fumblings in his earlier years don't seem to have had lasting bad effects...but it would have made things easier during that 3rd grade year if I'd done a more thorough job in the earlier grades. Dd learns at a different pace, and I think it's even more essential for her that we consistently plod through all these skills from early on, so that when she hits age 11-12, she will be prepared, too, when her thought processes start changing (I'm seeing inklings already!!). I am esp. thankful that I started her on some of these skills earlier than I did with ds.

 

Some grammar can be more concrete, nouns and verbs, and even adjectives. The more abstract ones of FLL pretty much flew over my kids' heads, but they got the definitions and the preposition list and the linking/to be/helping verbs lists memorized, and as ds plodded on through R&S, and as dd is going through R&S 3 now, things became/are becoming more clear to them. I *like* that R&S repeats itself each year in grades 3-5, with ever-so-slight deepening of explanation. It gets boring sometimes, but that's where I tweak things, doing most of it orally (except for diagrams), so that they will not balk about doing these boring exercises. Meanwhile, their confidence and ability to put language together grows.

 

hth

[Colleen in NS]

Yeah, I got through calculus that way too! I wasn't taught this way, but somehow figured out the "mental math" that everyone on this website keeps discussing because I HAD to! (In fact, I didn't understand until I was talking to DH last week that everyone didn't do it that way.)

 

Great suggestions - my kids are FINALLY able to count to a hundred, so we'll start skip counting practice!

 

I'm not posting about your post, just posting to say WOW!!!! You had triplets, then another baby less than 1 1/2 years later! You must have been SUPER busy those first few years (and still, I'd imagine!)! I bet your life is filled with precious baby/toddler/preschooler giggles and antics. :D

[angela in ohio]

..."concentrate on teaching skills, day by day, week by week, year by year, using the content of each year as fodder on which to practice." So then I ask myself, what skills? And I decided (for now): how to read, how to spell, math, grammar, Latin, writing, and certain lists/passages from science/history/literature for memory work. I also have on my radar for regular practice (even if not daily or weekly): scientific observation and experiment method, piano, and art skills. I think all of these skills will interact with each other, gradually more and more over the years.

 

This is my homeschool. :001_smile:

[Lakeside]

What I have found to be helpful w/ automaticity is review. We are currently doing Daily Math Review pdfs which someone here posted a link to it. It's perfect. Everyday, a multidigit addition, multidigit subtraction, multidigit multiplication, long division, a clock, a word problem....I find this keeps the knife sharp and not let it dull over time.

 

Do you have a link for this? TIA!

[Jen+4dc]

Something you might want to get on interlibrary loan are the marilyn burns math replacement units and go through a few of those for fun. Yes it will be *easy* for an 8yo, but that is a way to reteach concepts and he can get practice problem solving while polishing his skills on material that isn't so challenging.

 

I tried to look this up on Amazon and there's so much from her that I can't figure what would be best. Can you recommend favorites?

 

Thanks!

[angela in ohio]

I would love to hear thoughts on this: Is grammar a different beast when it comes to overteach and automaticity for the young child ~ grammar stage based on WTM?

 

I start grammar in third grade. I finish phonics and spelling in K-2, and then I focus on grammar, writing, and vocabulary for 3rd and up, as I don't want to be spinning too many plates at once.

 

I disagree that grammar can be mastered in a short amount of time. I think many who wait do so not because they think it can be, but because they disagree that it should be mastered at all.

 

We use R&S, and I haven't seen a problem with dc grasping concepts. By third grade, they have had a lot of exposure to print in our home. They have seen sentences correctly written and copied enough of them that they have no trouble picking up the patterns (that's all grammar is.) Even if they aren't quite sure the first time through, I can rest in the fact that they will see it again with R&S.

 

I do think grammar is concrete. If they can read the word, that word has meaning to them, as much as a math manipulative. They can work with it just as easily (that's probably Montessori influence on me :001_smile:.) I think diagramming helps. Grammar has a definite set of rules. There are only so many parts of speech, sentence types, and constructions. You can master them. It is more mathematical than most people think.

 

We can relate as adults. The second time we hear or read about something, we get more out of it, remember more, and can make more use of the information.

[abreakfromlife]

Daily Math Review - I googled and found this: Math Review pdfs It looks like that's what she's talking about. What a good idea. I can't say enough how immensely helpful these boards are.