Books about Christian mythology for non-Christians?

[MelanieM]

Okay, I am sorry you felt I was disingenous, unreasonable, and snarky. I felt my original statement was equivalent to the OP. In fact, I think your various statements above about other posts seems to clarify that the OP may well have been an intentional "response" to something and not just an innocent post.

 

No, your original statement was not equivalent to my OP. You accused me of asserting an opinion that I don't even hold to be true, never mind actually posted.

 

And while we're on that whole assumption thing... please stop doing that. Saille's link to another thread in no way "clarifies" that I am intentionally doing whatever it is you've dreamed up in your mind that I am doing. I started a thread asking for book recommendations. I used a word that you don't like, and then clarified my usage. There's no conspiracy theory here. I'm not some crazy Pagan out to prove a point to Christians. <sigh>

 

Dude. I was raised a Christian. I have a great deal of respect for the faith. I just want to help my kids understand my own heritage in a way that fits with my current world view.

[Rosie_0801]

Can you see how it might frustrate me that you can't be bothered to go look at the threads I am linking to/referencing? Can you see how that might come across as expecting more than you are willing to give? Can you see how that might make me much less likely to care how you feel?

 

Be serious. There is no reason why Julie should go and dig through a bunch of threads that she hasn't been participating on. You are the one interrogating her, so it is your responsibility to bring the information from those threads here and put them into a suitable question format so Julie actually has a chance to figure out what you are asking.

 

Why is it OK for you to expect deferential treatment that no board member of any other religion is getting?

 

That isn't worded well. Are you asking whether Julie believes The Well Trained Mind forums should be officially made a Christian board? Are you asking Julie if she thinks she ought to be put on a pedestal even higher than SWB? Are you asking if she thinks non-Christian religions should be treated without respect in conversation on this board?

 

People can expect anything they like, as I'm sure you and Julie both know. Whether they get it or not is another matter. And I'm sure you both know that too. I don't remember any "board member of any other religion" saying they have any deep seated gripes on how their religion is treated, anyway.

 

Would you please address the bolded section?

Second, there's a distinct implication in that second bolded section that non-Christians who teach Christian bible stories out of context (like my public high school's Lit text did, for example) that we are turning our children from the truth. Your truth. This is the undercurrent I'm referring to. That wording makes no sense WRT a non-Christian household. I

Do you believe that I should teach my children to adhere to your beliefs, and that if I don't, I am "turning my children from the truth"? Would it be OK with you if I said that about you and your children?

 

It's not abnormal for a Christian to think everyone should be Christian. That's something the rest of us have to accept about their world view. We don't need to take offense at that. "Thankyou, but I'm not interested" is a sufficient response to anyone of any religion trying to convert you. Of course people don't appreciate others trying to convert their children. That has nothing to do with being Christian, and everything to do with being a parent. Ultimately, you don't know Julie and she isn't trying to convert your children, so the answer to that question doesn't matter in the least. Say she says she does believe you should raise your children as Christians. Woopie doo. She wouldn't try to make you even if she did know you.

 

Julie will find it easier to address your requests if you do, indeed, make it easy for her.

 

Rosie

[Julie in MN]

No, your original statement was not equivalent to my OP. You accused me of asserting an opinion that I don't even hold to be true, never mind actually posted.

 

And while we're on that whole assumption thing... please stop doing that. Saille's link to another thread in no way "clarifies" that I am intentionally doing whatever it is you've dreamed up in your mind that I am doing. I started a thread asking for book recommendations. I used a word that you don't like, and then clarified my usage. There's no conspiracy theory here. I'm not some crazy Pagan out to prove a point to Christians. <sigh>

 

Dude. I was raised a Christian. I have a great deal of respect for the faith. I just want to help my kids understand my own heritage in a way that fits with my current world view.

 

I don't know what else to offer.

 

I felt offended. You disagree.

 

I stated that I was offended. You disagree with my stating that, I think.

 

My reason for feeling offended is that I would not start a post that way about another person's religion, because I have no doubt that it might offend someone. You disagree, I guess.

 

If I did accidentally offend someone, I would not interrogate or attack them for feeling offended. You disagree, I guess.

 

I do not feel you or anyone has to follow my religion. I would think you would agree with that.

 

I did not say anything about your religion and I have no idea what your religion is. You apparently think I did.

 

I do not know what else to say.

 

Julie

[babysparkler]

Melanie... Dh couldn't find anything in his collection that really geared towards children, but came across these books more in the "understanding the Christian theology" genre... though I'm not sure if they were exactly what you were looking for. Some of the other suggestions others gave look very intriguing and probably more suited to what you wanted, but I thought I would share his finds with you anyway:001_smile: (side note: they are Christian authors)

 

 

 

• John Stott: Basic Christianity (Inter-Varsity Press, 1971)
  
• J.I. Packer: Concise Theology: A Guide to the Historic Christian Beliefs (Tyndale House, 1993)
  
• Ted Campbell: Christian Mysteries (Wipf & Stock, 2005)
  

 

Your post got me interested in doing a study of the Saints sometime with the kids... thanks for spurring me on! I am taking notes on the book suggestions myself :)

[MelanieM]

I felt offended. You disagree.

 

I don't disagree that you feel offended. If you say you feel offended, obviously you do. You certainly have a right to feel how you feel.

 

I stated that I was offended. You disagree with my stating that, I think.

 

 

No, I don't disagree with you stating that you are offended. I disagree with what you stated my use of the word mythology means. You said I was judging your religious beliefs in a very specific, and unkind way. I wasn't doing any such thing. Therein lies the disagreement.

 

My reason for feeling offended is that I would not start a post that way about another person's religion, because I have no doubt that it might offend someone. You disagree, I guess.

 

Honestly, this whole thing has become so clouded with all the other assumptions and such that I feel a need to constantly correct, that I can barely see straight to determine how I feel about this.

 

I think the bottom line for me is that the word doesn't mean what you're saying it means, and I am left with the choice of either accepting your definition of mythology and changing how I speak about sacred stories of the world, or I have to accept that I will run into the issue of needing to provide a definition with my words when I speak them.

 

Now, this might seem like no big deal to many here -- just stop calling it mythology, you say! -- but in my world view it's either all mythology or it isn't. I don't feel like I have room (or want to make room) for using different terms to refer to different beliefs, because I do not want to imply in any way that there's a difference *for me* between the value of those sacred stories. There isn't. I hold them all in very high regard.

 

I also understand that people are saying fine, just don't call it mythology around Christians. That poses another problem for me as I have an issue with that type of duality. It sits poorly in my belly.

 

Also, I'm on the hill with Bill. Fighting for the right to use the word mythology as it is defined. I'm wearing the t-shirt, and I like how it looks.

 

If I did accidentally offend someone, I would not interrogate or attack them for feeling offended. You disagree, I guess.

 

 

When have I attacked you? I asked you a couple of questions and then when you replied to me without answering them, I asked them again. (And not every post I made here was directed at you, which I've said before as well.) I'm not tying you to a chair and forcing you to answer me on fear of pain or death. I'm not even speaking to you harshly. No interrogation, no attacking. Gosh.

 

I do not feel you or anyone has to follow my religion. I would think you would agree with that.

 

Ok. For what it's worth, I never said you suggested such a thing.

 

I did not say anything about your religion and I have no idea what your religion is. You apparently think I did.

 

 

I never said this either. But I'm sure you can see that you have questioned my intentions and described imagined beliefs of mine which I've repeatedly stated are not accurate.

 

I do not know what else to say.

 

 

You don't need to say anything else. But I do hope you can find your way to understanding that I am not saying, have not said, and do not intend to say anything negative about the sacred stories of Christianity. I'm not even making a statement regarding whether or not those stories are historically accurate. I have no ulterior motives. My intentions are as stated in my original post on this thread, without any hidden agendas or secret messages waiting to be decoded. That's all.

[MelanieM]

Melanie... Dh couldn't find anything in his collection that really geared towards children, but came across these books more in the "understanding the Christian theology" genre... though I'm not sure if they were exactly what you were looking for. Some of the other suggestions others gave look very intriguing and probably more suited to what you wanted, but I thought I would share his finds with you anyway:001_smile: (side note: they are Christian authors)

 

 

 

• John Stott: Basic Christianity (Inter-Varsity Press, 1971)

• J.I. Packer: Concise Theology: A Guide to the Historic Christian Beliefs (Tyndale House, 1993)

• Ted Campbell: Christian Mysteries (Wipf & Stock, 2005)

Your post got me interested in doing a study of the Saints sometime with the kids... thanks for spurring me on! I am taking notes on the book suggestions myself :)

 

Thanks for the suggestions, Jill! I will check my library for these titles for my own personal education. Much appreciated! :)

[Julie in MN]

Is it possible that it gave you a jolt, not because of Melanie, but because you tend to interact with people who agree with or are willing to defer to you?

 

Wow, that's presumptive. It was you who asked me to respond -- was I only allowed to say things you agree with? I spent a VERY long time digging to find where you might have asked me questions. Soon I will get too tired to do more, so I don't know if you will accuse me for the 3rd time of running off & not answering your "questions" <sigh>

 

So anyways, if this is truly a question, my answer is that I no, don't feel very deferred to in my life. If you need specifics, here is who I interact with most:

 

- my husband, who is my equal (well, I guess I could say that about all of these folks)

 

- my boss, who is a Ph.D. from China, and her husband, who is a former vice president of a large Minnesota corporation, also from China & half Canadian-Vietnamese, as well as their adult children and niece/nephew, who are all very much their own persons and are the company owners, after all

 

- the other lead teachers at the tutoring center where I work, which include two licensed American teachers, a former University instructor from India, a woman from India with a doctorate in the sciences, and a business entrepreneur who tutors calculus as a volunteer job

 

- my mentor from my church, who takes care of me emotionally, and is my senior by 20 years or so

 

- the students whom I tutor and their parents, who hire us and expect us to respect their very different life situations; I have been invited to everything from a Hindu goddess celebration to a Jewish feast, which I attended, and I don't think they would be inviting me so much if I were calling their religions "myths"

 

- my former Girl Scout troop co-leader for 10 years and dear friend, who is a strong and wise black woman

 

- my adult children including a son who is an engineer and smarter than me, and a daughter who has never been into obeying me :( , as well as my birth daughter & friend who is in her mid 30s and very much her own woman, teaching me about her generation

 

- one 14 year old son and my grandchildren, who do indeed look up to me sometimes :)

 

- oh, and dozens of doctors to whom it is quite important that I am respectful yet knowledgeable

 

 

I guess I go to this length to show I'm making an effort and also to show that you are being very presumptive in this and your other accusations about my character. I imagine I am a lot older and have a lot more life experience than you, or at least that's how it feels when you throw out your accusations.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Julie in MN

[HollyinNNV]

Is it possible that it gave you a jolt, not because of Melanie, but because you tend to interact with people who agree with or are willing to defer to you?

 

 

That is not logical. If that was the case, why did she post in this thread at all?

[Julie in MN]

No, I don't disagree with you stating that you are offended. I disagree with what you stated my use of the word mythology means. You said I was judging your religious beliefs in a very specific, and unkind way. I wasn't doing any such thing. Therein lies the disagreement.

 

I think the bottom line for me is that the word doesn't mean what you're saying it means, and I am left with the choice of either accepting your definition of mythology and changing how I speak about sacred stories of the world, or I have to accept that I will run into the issue of needing to provide a definition with my words when I speak them.

 

Now, this might seem like no big deal to many here -- just stop calling it mythology, you say!

 

Melanie,

I think this helps me see where I am confusing you.

 

See, the thing is that it doesn't matter what the word was. True, I don't use "mythology" when I'm talking to Hindu families because I feel the word implies their beliefs are less true than mine. If one of the Somali parents where I work came up and told me her daughter was fasting right now, I wouldn't say, "By the way, your myths sound interesting, could you tell me a book I could read to learn about them?" because I wouldn't want to risk offending her.

 

But the thing is, there are probably other words that would offend them, about which I am clueless. No matter what the word was, if I used a descriptive word and a Hindu acquaintance said it offended them, I would not ask them why. I would not give them an American or a Latin dictionary. I would put their feelings ahead of mine, if I were truly just looking for a book and they were truly feeling that my wording somehow offended them deeply.

 

That's just how *I* do it in *my* life, with all the different folks I interact with. Does that make sense?

Julie

Edited February 6, 2010 by Julie in MN
added another religious group to clearly show I would do the same for all

[Mom-ninja.]

Rosie, don't be silly. *No* one is on a higher pedestal than SWB. That's not get drastic now. ;)

 

 

 

Oh, and just to throw it out there....I just read something in another thread, that I found offense to my beliefs. I bit my tongue (or rather my fingers) again. I'm letting it slide off my back.

[PollyOR]

Am I seeing black and blue? :boxing_smiley:

 

Joking aside, ladies. I think this thread has gotten too personal. I would suggest that you agree to disagree and move on. It's just not worth it. :grouphug:

[nmoira]

No matter what the word was, if I used a descriptive word and a Hindu acquaintance said it offended them, I would not ask them why. I would not give them an American or a Latin dictionary. I would put their feelings ahead of mine, if I were truly just looking for a book and they were truly feeling that my wording somehow offended them deeply.

 

That's just how *I* do it in *my* life, with all the different folks I interact with. Does that make sense?

Julie

If you were talking with someone face to face and they said something similar to the OP (in a offhand manner, without body language signalling hostility), would you immediately respond with, "I know you're looking for "books" technically. But surely you're aware that using the term "mythology" is insulting my intelligence and insinuating that I have no historical, scientific, or physical evidence for my beliefs." Now, the OP was insinuating no such thing, but we're still here how many pages later? Is it possible your negative feelings over your assumption about the OP are so strong that you can't take a step back?

[Lovedtodeath]

Oh goodness. Melanie and Julie in MN are both nice respectful people who had a misunderstanding. Julie was offended and explained why. Melanie explained that wasn't what she meant.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if it ended there? Julie could say, oh, I may have overreacted. Misunderstanding all cleared up. But with hundreds of other people reading the thread and jumping all over either Melanie or Julie with ridiculous continued attacks before they even get a chance to clear up the misunderstanding.

 

Aye yi yi

 

If you were talking with someone face to face and they said something similar to the OP (in a offhand manner, without body language signalling hostility), would you immediately respond with, "I know you're looking for "books" technically. But surely you're aware that using the term "mythology" is insulting my intelligence and insinuating that I have no historical, scientific, or physical evidence for my beliefs."

Yes I would, actually, but then we could clear it up right quick. I think the reason that we are here so many pages later is that people are continuing to attack Julie and therefore she feels the need to continue defending and explaining. Edited February 6, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[nmoira]

Wouldn't it be nice if it ended there? Julie could say, oh, I may have overreacted. Misunderstanding all cleared up. But with hundreds of other people reading the thread and jumping all over either Melanie or Julie with ridiculous continued attacks before they even get a chance to clear up the misunderstanding.

Except that this isn't a conversation between two people (with or without a bunch of onlookers and gawkers). And there were a number of other things said, including what I thought to be a dismissive suggestion that such a question didn't even belong on the curriculum board. That in particular I took issue with, because in the reality of our homeschool it absolutely does pertain to our curriculum.

 

Yes I would, actually, but then we could clear it up right quick. I think the reason that we are here so many pages later is that people are continuing to attack Julie and therefore she feels the need to continue defending and explaining.

I'm not seeing her as a victim here.

[IsabelC]

Bloody hell. :confused: (Or, if that is offensive, please kindly substitute appropriate words congruent with your personal faith and/or life philosophy.)

[Saille]

Be serious. There is no reason why Julie should go and dig through a bunch of threads that she hasn't been participating on. You are the one interrogating her

 

Rosie, I didn't interrogate her. The only reason I have phrased anything in the form of a question is because Julie indicated that she wasn't responding to things I said directly to her because I wasn't phrasing them in the form of questions.

 

That isn't worded well. Are you asking whether Julie believes The Well Trained Mind forums should be officially made a Christian board? Are you asking Julie if she thinks she ought to be put on a pedestal even higher than SWB? Are you asking if she thinks non-Christian religions should be treated without respect in conversation on this board?

 

Yes. That was what her tone (which was really the issue for me, not whether she was offended) indicated. Every additional post she makes seems to have the same tone, and I'm getting really tired of what I see as looking for technicalities to object to instead of just connecting with me. I'm trying very hard to talk directly to her without a bunch of ambiguous hinting around as to who I mean, and her response is basically, "Well, I don't see anything framed in the form of a question." That felt very passive aggressive, but I went back and rephrased everything anyway.

 

Tone was also my objection to the "turning your children from the truth" comment. Christianity is the center of Christians' universe. Not anyone else's. I felt there was an implication to that statement that was every bit as offensive to me as she found Melanie's OP. Which is why I am trying to clarify what she actually meant. I don't want to assume she meant what I think she did, so I'm asking. If she did, in fact, mean what I think she meant, I will explain that I am offended...without assuming she offended me deliberately.

 

I don't remember any "board member of any other religion" saying they have any deep seated gripes on how their religion is treated, anyway.

 

I don't understand the purpose behind this statement. It looks like you think we disagree, but this is my point exactly. It seems to me that, if nobody has gotten upset about this at any time in the past when it has come up (not that I can find, anyway) that might in and of itself stand out to Julie, and indicate that perhaps she overreacted.

 

It's not abnormal for a Christian to think everyone should be Christian. That's something the rest of us have to accept about their world view. We don't need to take offense at that. "Thankyou, but I'm not interested" is a sufficient response to anyone of any religion trying to convert you. Of course people don't appreciate others trying to convert their children. That has nothing to do with being Christian, and everything to do with being a parent. Ultimately, you don't know Julie and she isn't trying to convert your children, so the answer to that question doesn't matter in the least. Say she says she does believe you should raise your children as Christians. Woopie doo. She wouldn't try to make you even if she did know you.

 

I'm not sure I know why you said this, either. I didn't say Julie was trying to convert me. I said that the reason for her overreaction appeared to be her expectation that everyone else *should* believe, or should at least *act* like they believe, in her religion...to pacify her. I still maintain that, because no one was trying to be offensive in any way, her reaction was basically a refusal to accept the right of others to use a word that did not defer to her religion as possessing more authority than that of others. I maintain that the tone of her post was not really acceptable to begin with, but also that this reasoning is a violation of the basic principles governing an inclusive message board.

 

Julie will find it easier to address your requests if you do, indeed, make it easy for her.

 

I do not think it is fair or necessary to ask me to make things easy for Julie. I think that Julie made this thread difficult in the first place. I am not thrilled to be spending so much time on this, but I am willing, because I am not comfortable with the possibility of an informal precedent being set that could result in more reactions like Julie's.

[Saille]

Wow, that's presumptive. It was you who asked me to respond -- was I only allowed to say things you agree with?

 

I do not think you understand what I am saying. I am attempting to understand why a conspiracy theory is a more viable explanation to you than the idea that you simply aren't accustomed to people describing Christianity in a way that does not imply belief.

 

Also, I do not at all understand why expressing a desire to understand someone else's beliefs would be offensive. I don't get that AT ALL. Can you explain more about that?

[Julie in MN]

If you were talking with someone face to face and they said something similar to the OP (in a offhand manner, without body language signalling hostility), would you immediately respond with, "I know you're looking for "books" technically. But surely you're aware that using the term "mythology" is insulting my intelligence and insinuating that I have no historical, scientific, or physical evidence for my beliefs." Now, the OP was insinuating no such thing, but we're still here how many pages later? Is it possible your negative feelings over your assumption about the OP are so strong that you can't take a step back?

 

Okay, Moira, I am aware that this is one thing I haven't touched on -- the word issues in this thread. Well, I have stated that I believe the resulting conversation would belong on the general board. I am going to back down on that, I guess, so I apologize in advance to those who also feel this is an intrusion on their board and belongs on the general board. I'll just answer this one thing and then I'll follow the advice of so many who have PM-d me suggesting I just let everyone's questions go because none of the questioners truly is interested in my answers and I am just wasting my time.

 

The reason I'm going to answer these last things (which I've been avoiding) is that this thread is being read by many others who have heard even Christians here invite them to virtually hate the "half" of us Christians who, well, for lack of a kinder term, we put on a more serious face regarding our faith. We are not unique; there are "serious faced" folks in all religions, but only Christians are being addressed here.

 

For that reason, in my last few efforts to carefully answer every question directed towards me, I have truly opened myself up for all to see, hoping that what shines thru is that we outspoken Christians are actually not the inexperienced, isolated, bigoted, hateful people of the stereotypes.

 

So now, I'll address all of the "word" issues I remember being asked of me. It will be too long, but I am incapable of being short and clear at the same time. And Moira, this will "not" be just about you. It's a group post regarding all the "word" issues I've ignored thus far. And based on my experience trying to be forthcoming with Saille and the OP, I don't expect you to understand or agree with anything. I just want to try to finish up answering all questions to the best of my ability. Then I have to get ready for work :)

 

(1) Do I understand your definition and justification for use of the word "mythology"? Yes, I do. I've said that at least twice before. Multiple persons have already explained to Bill and the others that words are a heart issue and not a dictionary issue, and I have to say that I'm standing on their end of the field. Others have answered this question fully, IMO, and all I can say is, "I agree."

 

Yes, this is a scholarly board and I enjoy that. Hey, I'm a phi beta kappa, summa cum laude, and all that. I'm a nerd (who types fast).

 

However, really I'm a mental midget compared to some of the families I work with, for instance. Some can speak 5 languages and have multiple technical degrees. And yet, despite their bright minds, I would never use the word myth to describe their faith. And, I would never justify myself by saying that they should really know the Latin definition (well, I guess partly because I'd look stupid since I don't know Latin and they might :) ).

 

(2) Should I have said (or how dare I say), "I personally vote for moving this to the general board"? Well, the "general" board is a place I totally avoid because I don't need more drama in my life. I think I did mention that already. And discussing "anyone's" religion other than your own seems to me to belong over there. Maybe discussing your own religion, too, depending on what's being discussed -- books about your own would seem non-issue-oriented, I think.

 

Now, I'm aware that to some, religion is an academic subject. But I would be confused if folks are maintaining that it's "always" just academics, or even that it's "mostly" just academics. Now you might say, "It can be just academics to me, so who are you to tell me what to do?" Well, I'm nobody. Obviously my request did nothing, affected nothing, caused nothing to change. So I really can't understand the offense when I say "I vote" to move it to another board. I still vote for that.

 

(3) I stated, "Sorry, but I have strong opinions when you get down to the core of my being." I didn't say I was mad. I didn't insult anyone else's beliefs. And no, I didn't say, "Gee, a different thread title would've been nicer." I feel I used very clear words that were full of meaning. Core means very, very important to me, I guess. Core seems like a word that would cause folks to hear that it wasn't just a flippant, unimportant thing that I should have ignored. How can I begin to share this core?

 

You see, I love a God who abhors false gods. They pull the children whom He created (just to love them) apart from Him and His love. Grouping Him with myths and gods is worse than spitting on Him. It hurts me because I love Him. It hurts Him because He loves each of His children as much as He loves me. I know this love in my heart and soul. I know His love because He created me in His image and I have experienced that love, which is beyond biology or need or even being loved back. I know His love because I see beauty in His creation for no other reason than joy. I know His love because it has been there, holding me in my deepest, darkest hours of pain. And I do not throw it aside in order to be nice to someone.

 

Now, of course that doesn't mean I should be mean to someone. I imagine the whole Earth knows that Jesus taught love. But love sometimes can mean speaking up. Love not only for God but for fellow man can mean speaking plainly even though I'll be stereotyped as an intolerant Christian. I tell my children truthful things that don't always feel good but still represent my love for them. I tell my co-workers truthful things about *my* beliefs. Love isn't hiding. And turning the other cheek sometimes means taking the bricks I know will be thrown when I speak plainly about Truth, which is God, and which my dear friend likes to say is "Still God" even if He is denied.

 

You see, it is POSSIBLE for me to live a full life amongst a very broad range of people and yet I do NOT insult them, even though I speak plainly about my God. I have told you that I've been invited to Hindu and Jewish ceremonies, so I would not think these folks had felt insulted. I have always had Jehova's Witness friends who visit my home regularly on their routes even though I will never believe what they do.

 

People on this thread are somehow assuming that because I speak clearly about *my* faith, then they can infer that I do not respect the faith of others, but this is simply not true. I have discussions with others and I enjoy the discussions and so do they. I am not uptight about it. I remember once exploring religion with a Hindu friend and I was asking her what the end result of all this incarnation was -- what's the goal? She tried to explain and I said something like, "It just sounds like your end goal is... nothingness?" She laughingly agreed but said not to worry because very few will reach that stage :) . I replied, "Oh, that would never work in America. We like all our hard work to produce big results!" She was not offended because I only talked about "me" (or "us Americans"). I would never ask this friend to give me a book on her myths, or say that I would like to teach my kids about her "myths," and I think if you asked her, she would agree that I would not be so disrespectful. Some might truly not care if I said "myth," especially if they are not of the "serious-faced" persuasion within their religion, but it would not be worth the risk because I DO NOT EVER WANT TO OFFEND.

 

I've been accused on many posts of speaking the way I do because I don't know or understand that folks are unlike myself. As I have typed these answers, I have tried to come up with examples to explain things. I have become baffled by the accusation that I don't know anyone else or care about anyone else, because I've realized how broad my personal experiences are (I'd never thought of myself that way!). And I've started wondering if just the opposite is not true, and the accusers are the ones who have a mantra and know no one outside their ring. I'm thinking that I'm speaking to a "college crowd" who is all theory and philosophy and protest, but no actual world experience [ETA: about the fact that calling someone's religion a "myth" is offensive in the real world out here]? Or, at the very least, not the broad range that my 51 years has encountered.

 

(I have to move the rest to another post because this is too long for the board!)

Edited February 6, 2010 by Julie in MN

[Julie in MN]

(4) I said to the OP, "But surely you're aware that using the term "mythology" is insulting my intelligence and insinuating that I have no historical, scientific, or physical evidence for my beliefs."

 

Well, insulting my intelligence is simply what gets implied when using all the common dictionary definitions that one lady on this thread took the time to copy out. I mean, after all, if I have a "core" belief AND I like to think of myself as a scholarly WTM type, well, why would I put my life in mythical hands, the way all those dictionaries and ALL those folks posting about this on the board think of "myth"?

 

It's really the same conversation all over again. It's part of a more exact reason why I wouldn't presume to tell the cultured and educated Somalis at work (nor the life-educated Somalis who scratched out an existence in the refugee camps) what the "correct" definition of "myth" was. It would be condescending of me when I have no place being condescending.

 

In fact, I should add that the "more" educated my international friends are, the "more" loud and clear they might object to the word "myth."

 

We are all in different places on our faith journey and we cannot know another's relationship with God except that God loves each of us. So I can and should only speak plainly of myself, and I don't see that I made any accusations in my OP about anyone else's faith, but instead simply spoke plainly about the callous disregard of my own. By extension (and by repeating myself many times over), I have clearly said that this respect should be given to ALL faiths and that I WOULD and SHOULD and DO give this respect to ALL faiths.

 

I have said many times that I would "expect" someone to speak up if "I" were to use a word that offended "them." And if they did speak up, I have said that I would hope to handle it differently than the folks on this board have handled my deeply held feelings.

 

(5) I try to picture scenarios, as you request. (I'm not the creative type.)

 

(a) If someone I didn't know just randomly asked about Christian myths in, say, a bookstore? I'd probably restate their question using less offensive terms, then answer my restatement of their question, and walk away. Maybe smile. Maybe answer additional questions. But not if he turned around and accused me of being intolerant for stating something about "myself" in more respectful terms.

 

Actually, if I didn't appear to be a Christian, I might say almost nothing, but folks tell me that I'm an "obvious" Christian and so I would expect Christianity to be respected when he was the one choosing to approach me. But since no one else would see or hear our conversation again, it would not need to be especially clear, just something simple like a rewording that he may or may not "hear" -- I cannot control him, I can only speak up.

 

(b) If someone posted a sign at my work about "Christian Myth Books" over one of our library shelves, that's the most similar situation I can think of to this thread. So, how would I react IRL? I know I would ask that the sign be changed (or of course it could be moved to their own home, but that's just to try to connect the "other board" part of this analogy). I couldn't ask for it to be removed without stating any reason. But how would I word my reason? Well, it would depend on the setting, I guess. If it was an educated group, in a country with many Christians, who clearly knew that many Christians would be seeing the sign and yet showed no sensitivity, I would speak fairly clearly about it, just as I did here. If no apology or change was forthcoming, I might even resign and start a new adventure working elsewhere, without malice. Now, I did not and would never make accusations about their own faith being inferior to mine! It would be wrong to infer that from what I am saying. But it would simply be too offensive and hurtful to my God to not speak up at all.

 

So, as I've considered these scenarios, I've realized that if the OP comment had been buried in a thread somewhere, it might not have appeared like a billboard to me, publicly disregarding one single faith right in front of those who hold that faith dearly. I don't know. I'd still hope that buried post was over on the general discussion board instead of this board, tho.

 

© Now I need to add that if my sample bookstore or tutoring center were in India, or even were Hindu sites in America, I would say nothing whatsoever about a "Christian myth" sign. I have been baffled by those arguing that numbers don't matter. Culture and experience are the things that define meaning, and how is a culture from the other side of the world supposed to know the details of word connotations over here? And vice versa. Only when numbers and length of exposure increases, and knowledge of detailed word connotations could be generally assumed, would I expect respect for my beliefs. America is very generous about quickly absorbing and respecting new beliefs, much quicker than an established ancient country could be expected to be, but it still does take time for knowledge and understanding of small new things to be absorbed. In any case, if someone made me AWARE that I had used a word with an offensive connotation, I would CARE, I would CHANGE, and I would APOLOGIZE.

 

But don't think that anyone reading this thread needs to be me, think like me, like me, agree with me, do anything about my needs, or even show me the respect that I mention that I would choose to give others. <sigh>

[justamouse]

I have been thinking way to long and hard about this thread and I've had some thoughts I wanted to share.

 

I am a Christian, and I didn't get offended at the OPs wording. Why?- I wondered all evening.

 

I'm a writer. I've read through and watched Joseph Campbell's books/vids. Myths play an enormous part in what I do and how I perceive the 'story' of what happens around me (archetypes). The word MYTH is a term of extreme reverence to me and I love studying them and finding patterns within them. To me, Myths are the story of humanity, our past, present and future.

 

Perhaps if the word held less connotations of "lie" in the minds of the offended, they wouldn't have reacted so strongly.

 

JMHO

 

edited for spelling

[lionfamily1999]

I hope Carmen will see this and clarify. That wasn't the way I interpreted her response. I thought she meant that she was standing up to say "yes, I believe my truth is absolute, whether anyone else realizes it or not." Which, of course, is different from saying "I expect everyone else to realize it"!

 

 

 

Hear, hear!

:iagree:

Be serious. There is no reason why Julie should go and dig through a bunch of threads that she hasn't been participating on. You are the one interrogating her, so it is your responsibility to bring the information from those threads here and put them into a suitable question format so Julie actually has a chance to figure out what you are asking.

 

 

That isn't worded well. Are you asking whether Julie believes The Well Trained Mind forums should be officially made a Christian board? Are you asking Julie if she thinks she ought to be put on a pedestal even higher than SWB? Are you asking if she thinks non-Christian religions should be treated without respect in conversation on this board?

 

People can expect anything they like, as I'm sure you and Julie both know. Whether they get it or not is another matter. And I'm sure you both know that too. I don't remember any "board member of any other religion" saying they have any deep seated gripes on how their religion is treated, anyway.

 

 

 

It's not abnormal for a Christian to think everyone should be Christian. That's something the rest of us have to accept about their world view. We don't need to take offense at that. "Thankyou, but I'm not interested" is a sufficient response to anyone of any religion trying to convert you. Of course people don't appreciate others trying to convert their children. That has nothing to do with being Christian, and everything to do with being a parent. Ultimately, you don't know Julie and she isn't trying to convert your children, so the answer to that question doesn't matter in the least. Say she says she does believe you should raise your children as Christians. Woopie doo. She wouldn't try to make you even if she did know you.

 

Julie will find it easier to address your requests if you do, indeed, make it easy for her.

 

Rosie

:grouphug:

Bloody hell. :confused: (Or, if that is offensive, please kindly substitute appropriate words congruent with your personal faith and/or life philosophy.)

For Pity's Sake!

[Robin in DFW]

It seems the OP wanted some book options for use in her homeschool. To me this makes this the perfect place to inquire.

 

Another poster chose to be offended by the OP's word choice.

 

That's it. She chose to be offended. She should have left it alone and let the ACTUAL request be answered by others who chose not to be offended or found nothing in the request to be even remotely disrespectful.

 

There, I've said it.

 

Robin

[Jenn in Mo]

The reason I'm going to answer these last things (which I've been avoiding) is that this thread is being read by many others who have heard even Christians here invite them to virtually hate the "half" of us Christians who, well, for lack of a kinder term, we put on a more serious face regarding our faith. We are not unique; there are "serious faced" folks in all religions, but only Christians are being addressed here.

 

I hate to assume anything here, so please tell me if I'm misreading anything. It would seem that you are saying some Christians (apparently half of the Christian population participating in the thread by your count?) disagreed with your approach and this disagreement equates inviting readers to hate the Christians who take their faith more seriously.

 

*IF* that is what you are saying....wow. I love the same God you refer to in the rest of your post. The God Who loves. The God Who abhors false gods. The Holy God Who created the universe, Who comforts the hurting, Who is beyond comprehension. And yet, even if Mel had meant to scoff at my religion (which it has been made clear she did not,) I would still disagree with your response.

 

I find it offensive to be told I am not serious about my faith because I am less concerned with what Melanie thinks about my religion and more concerned with rejoicing that someone wants to read the Bible. That said...you didn't offend me. I think it is something that would generally be considered offensive but it honestly didn't offend me. I've been deeply saddened by this thread. But "offended" isn't an emotion God encourages me to embrace. The Bible is actually pretty much against it.

 

The fact is, it doesn't matter to me what Melanie thinks of Christianity (though she thinks respectfully by the way) it matters that I hope someday Melanie becomes a Christian. It matters that I live a life that has enough peace in it that I don't stomp my foot when someone doesn't "get" my faith. It matters that I live a life that has enough joy in it that I don't "sigh" continuously because they just don't understand. It's not enough that I love God. I need to let God's love be seen in me....even to those who persecute me or even those who simply misunderstand me.

 

I take my faith very seriously. Which is why I had to stand up when I felt it was being misrepresented.

 

 

Some might truly not care if I said "myth," especially if they are not of the "serious-faced" persuasion within their religion, but it would not be worth the risk because I DO NOT EVER WANT TO OFFEND.

 

 

I don't think the definition of the word mythology matters one iota. I think we are called to respond with grace regardless.

 

(but if you want my credentials, years in the ministry, etc. I would be happy to share them if it will make you take me more seriously)

 

And I would be very interested in seeing examples of how I or anyone invited readers to hate you.

[Saille]

Julie,

 

Thank you for taking all that time to reply. That must have taken forever!

 

I agree that the semantic issue is probably never going to be resolved. It seems to be at an impasse.

 

I understand that you feel called by your God to speak up, but I think (as others have said), that you went about it in an incorrect way. I understand that you must follow your conscience, and I hope you understand that I am following mine. My conscience tells me to speak the truth as I know it when I see an imbalance. I saw (and still see) one in your reaction. My faith tells me (and this thread has strengthened my conviction) that aggressive and exclusive monotheism is a danger to anyone who is not an aggressive exclusive monotheist, and to societies not organized around exclusive monotheism. We could agree that we disagree.

 

However, because you insist on adding the caveat that it's OK for you to lose your temper because you are obviously (in your opinion) right, we are at an impasse there, too. I'm not comfortable accepting unilateralism from one subset of religious persons on this inclusive homeschooling board. So, I agree to disagree, but I don't agree to sit back if you behave this way again.

 

Unfortunately, what I hear you saying is that your beliefs justify your reaction; I found your reaction untenable. Therefore, if this happens again, we're going to wind up in the exact same place.

[nmoira]

Julie, thank you for taking the time to reply. I have way to many social engagements today to get through it (I'm in between as I type), but will be back either late tonight or tomorrow.

[HRAAB]

I've been reading, but haven't wanted to get involved. But this just jumped out at me.

 

The reason I'm going to answer these last things (which I've been avoiding) is that this thread is being read by many others who have heard even Christians here invite them to virtually hate the "half" of us Christians who, well, for lack of a kinder term, we put on a more serious face regarding our faith. We are not unique; there are "serious faced" folks in all religions, but only Christians are being addressed here.

 

I bolded and italicized a particular word that jumped out at me.

Okay, if I'm understanding the above correctly....

 

Then...

 

 

Some might truly not care if I said "myth," especially if they are not of the "serious-faced" persuasion within their religion, but it would not be worth the risk because I DO NOT EVER WANT TO OFFEND.

 

Could you have possibly just offended 'the other half' of Christians reading this thread?

 

I think I'll leave it at that.

[lionfamily1999]

Julie, thank you for taking the time to reply. I have way to many social engagements today to get through it (I'm in between as I type), but will be back either late tonight or tomorrow.

I wish I could go on some social engagements. The snow's too deep :(

 

Have fun!

[Saille]

I wish I could go on some social engagements. The snow's too deep :(

 

Have fun!

 

I'm pretty sure they just said on the news that D.C. has got a foot. :001_huh:

[Lovedtodeath]

I hate to assume anything here, so please tell me if I'm misreading anything. It would seem that you are saying some Christians (apparently half of the Christian population participating in the thread by your count?) disagreed with your approach and this disagreement equates inviting readers to hate the Christians who take their faith more seriously.

And I would be very interested in seeing examples of how I or anyone invited readers to hate you.

I have felt the very same way that Julie describes. She is describing a feeling of being ostracized for taking things more seriously. Yes, I have seen examples. Is dragging this thread on beneffitting anyone? I read the first few pages with Julie's reaction and the OPs response and it wasn't all that aggressive or hateful until more people got involved. I really really didn't want to see any more posts here. :(

[Jen500]

I have felt the very same way that Julie describes. She is describing a feeling of being ostracized for taking things more seriously. Yes, I have seen examples. Is dragging this thread on beneffitting anyone? I read the first few pages with Julie's reaction and the OPs response and it wasn't all that aggressive or hateful until more people got involved. I really really didn't want to see any more posts here. :(

 

I think someone should have passed the bean dip back on page 2. Probably half the posts on any board *could* bother *someone* who happens to take a word/phrase/idea/whatever more seriously.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm pretty sure they just said on the news that D.C. has got a foot. :001_huh:

I walked to a neighbor's house (cabin fever, need I say more) and it's definitely a foot and a half in most places.... two feet in others.... and that's without having ever reached the actual ground.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I think someone should have passed the bean dip back on page 2. Probably half the posts on any board *could* bother *someone* who happens to take a word/phrase/idea/whatever more seriously.

ITA :cheers2:

[Jenn in Mo]

{QUOTE=Jenn in Mo]

I hate to assume anything here, so please tell me if I'm misreading anything. It would seem that you are saying some Christians (apparently half of the Christian population participating in the thread by your count?) disagreed with your approach and this disagreement equates inviting readers to hate the Christians who take their faith more seriously.

And I would be very interested in seeing examples of how I or anyone invited readers to hate you.

 

I have felt the very same way that Julie describes. She is describing a feeling of being ostracized for taking things more seriously. Yes, I have seen examples. Is dragging this thread on beneffitting anyone? I read the first few pages with Julie's reaction and the OPs response and it wasn't all that aggressive or hateful until more people got involved. I really really didn't want to see any more posts here. :(

 

I'm not trying to argue with you by responding, only trying to understand better what you are saying.

 

1. She takes the Christian faith more seriously than me?

2. Her feeling ostracized means I encouraged others to hate her?

3. You sharing Julie's feelings is intended as an example of my hate speech?

 

If this is what you are saying, I guess I have nothing to say that hasn't been said. If this is not what you are saying, then I apologize for any misunderstanding.

[Lovedtodeath]

Apology accepted. ;)

 

I also need to apologize to you, for it is obvious that my comments caused you distress. All of your questions had you in them, and it wasn't about you at all, but simply saying that I could relate to Julie's feeling on an overall wavelength. She doesn't have a gentle way of putting things, but I am pretty sure that her heart is in the right place.

 

And good grief, poor Melanie! I haven't seen her doing anything wrong yet she is the OP in this thing.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Kareni]

... You might want to check out The Bible And It's Influence. Along with detailed discussion of the books of the Bible from beginning to end, it explains how these works influenced culture, art, politics, etc. I have to add that I have not held it in my hands yet, but I have heard good things about it from people I like.

 

 

... I would like to hold it in my hands before purchasing. This thread discussed it briefly.

 

The Bible and Its Influence is indeed a good book. I obtained a copy to peruse by using inter-library loan. Perhaps that is an option that might work for you.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[swimmermom3]

The Bible and Its Influence is indeed a good book. I obtained a copy to peruse by using inter-library loan. Perhaps that is an option that might work for you.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

:blushing: I have no idea why I didn't consider this. Perhaps I initially thought they wouldn't carry it. They do and it's at my branch. Rather embarrassing when you think about it. Thanks, Kareni.:D

[Kareni]

They do and it's at my branch.

 

Good news! Let us know what you think of it.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Jenn in Mo]

Apology accepted. ;)

 

I also need to apologize to you, for it is obvious that my comments caused you distress. All of your questions had you in them, and it wasn't about you at all, but simply saying that I could relate to Julie's feeling on an overall wavelength. She doesn't have a gentle way of putting things, but I am pretty sure that her heart is in the right place.

 

And good grief, poor Melanie! I haven't seen her doing anything wrong yet she is the OP in this thing.

 

No apology necessary. I must not have worded myself well because I didn't feel distress, just confusion. I'm sorry for the slow response - my son had a band concert tonight and we just got back.

 

I am sure Julie has a very good heart and I ache for her and the stress load she is under. But I cannot relate to this. I don't think an offended spirit has any place in a Christian's life. I've seen it cause so much hurt, both in the church body and outside the church as well.

[Storm Bay]

Oops. I must have misread your post. That's what I get for trying to read and respond to a hot thread on my iPhone in between flights. I apologize.

 

Apology accepted. :)

[Storm Bay]

Another poster chose to be offended by the OP's word choice.

 

That's it. She chose to be offended. She should have left it alone and let the ACTUAL request be answered by others who chose not to be offended or found nothing in the request to be even remotely disrespectful.

 

There, I've said it.

 

Robin

 

Well, I wouldn't say I chose to be offended, but how I responded was ultimately a choice whether good or bad. Perhaps I should have ignored it since normally I would have, but since I take great care with this area in people's lives and, like all of us do at one time or another in our lives, I have some unusually stressful out of the ordinary things going on IRL that I don't want to post about, I spoke up (not to worry, my marriage is fine & my dc healthy.) I've already agreed with Rosie that a better wording on my part would have been much better. I've been on this forum quite a while and am not usually so quick or sharp in reacting (usually I try to act rather than react.)

 

Unlike some who have posted here, I actually have met people of other faiths IRL who have been offended or hurt by the wording or responses of others. But for better or worse all of us can only go by our experiences on this which are by their very nature anecdotal.

[nmoira]

I've read Julie's post and there's too much going on there for me to respond. I just don't get where she is or where she's coming from. I don't see the hate. I don't hate. I wish her peace. I have nothing more to say.

[Miss Sherry]

Be serious. There is no reason why Julie should go and dig through a bunch of threads that she hasn't been participating on. You are the one interrogating her, so it is your responsibility to bring the information from those threads here and put them into a suitable question format so Julie actually has a chance to figure out what you are asking.

 

 

That isn't worded well. Are you asking whether Julie believes The Well Trained Mind forums should be officially made a Christian board? Are you asking Julie if she thinks she ought to be put on a pedestal even higher than SWB? Are you asking if she thinks non-Christian religions should be treated without respect in conversation on this board?

 

People can expect anything they like, as I'm sure you and Julie both know. Whether they get it or not is another matter. And I'm sure you both know that too. I don't remember any "board member of any other religion" saying they have any deep seated gripes on how their religion is treated, anyway.

 

 

 

It's not abnormal for a Christian to think everyone should be Christian. That's something the rest of us have to accept about their world view. We don't need to take offense at that. "Thankyou, but I'm not interested" is a sufficient response to anyone of any religion trying to convert you. Of course people don't appreciate others trying to convert their children. That has nothing to do with being Christian, and everything to do with being a parent. Ultimately, you don't know Julie and she isn't trying to convert your children, so the answer to that question doesn't matter in the least. Say she says she does believe you should raise your children as Christians. Woopie doo. She wouldn't try to make you even if she did know you.

 

Julie will find it easier to address your requests if you do, indeed, make it easy for her.

 

Rosie

You are so articulate I have enjoyed reading your post. Some of it made me laugh because it made so much sense but I could not have found the words for it like you did. But it seems so obvious to hear you say it. But I am sure there are many people who would not agree with what you had to say but I do.