Need help in teaching dd how to translate mind pictures to words

[Storm Bay]

Help! Dd has a great vocabulary and can write stories, etc, no problem. However, she has a great deal of trouble putting some concepts into words. One place this came up was in Geometry when I gave her an oral exam at the end. She can picture definitions & theorems, but couldn't word them well. This comes up at times in her short answer questions, too. Sometimes she can answer very well, but it depends on the nature of the question & the concept involved.

 

For any of you not familiar with me or my dd, she is vehemently opposed to copywork, essays, literary analysis, etc. This doesn't mean she's never done this, but what I'm doing for her freshman year is breaking things apart. For example, she's not going to write essays for literary analysis, but answer questions related to whichever part of lit we're working on, and for the first 3 books/weeks that's setting. They're the same kinds of questions many answer in essays.

 

But back to the main question. How can I get her to learn to translate so that when she is in college others can see that she really understands things when they grade written work without her there to explain? Before high school when I didn't assign grades this wasn't as important, but we need to make a transition so that by 18 she's able to do this. She also has trouble doing this with speech in these areas although she can be amazingly articulate in other areas.

[Storm Bay]

Anybody?

[Cedarmom]

I'm a little confused about the math part of the question? Wouldn't that part be easier to write down? Maybe I missed something. If she can't put it down in wrinting the only way I can think of orally is sort of like narration for younger students, when they mix things up (word order stuff) they say "Tim and him to the store went" You say" ah So He and Tim went to the store' and they repeat it correctly.

 

 

On English, yes my son stuggled too. Most helpful ideas

1) Memorize poetry and speeches-this helps install language pattern in our brain. Maybe take a semester and only do that for English. It sounds so simplistic, but it truly helps.

 

2)My son joined debate club. If this is too overwhelming try a speech club. Practicing prepared speech also helps develop patterns. Doing dramatic speeches.

 

3) Sounds like a great idea to break the literary into parts Now help her answer the questions. Disucuss them with her. Give her questions she can ask herself (WTM AND WEM are great sources) that will help her know how to answer the essay questions. Then go over the outline outloud with her(We used a big whiteboard ny son could see it better) Help her discuss ideas outloud of what she is going to write. Then have her write(or she dictates)

Don't be afraid of too much hand holding. Andrew Pudewa says there is no such thing as helping a child too much.When they are ready-they will let go. Yes, its time consuming. BUt that is what it took for my son . Gradually he became better. I think learning how to communicate is an invaluable skill, and I was willing to put whatever effort I needed into it.

 

For the outline you don't have to do a conventional outline you could try mind clusters or other ides that are more pictorial might help her organize her thought.

 

Clarification on helping her answer question I wouldn't just say the question , but rather make it a dialogue beween the two of you. Even if it first you are the one doing most of the talking. She will begin to mirror your discussion, she will begin to understand how to put thoughts into words. You may even just want to do the discussions only for a while, then move on to the writing.

 

I'm not sure if this is enitely what you mean, but hopefully it helps somewhat.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Cedarmom
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[laughing lioness]

Just a thought, and it doesn't address your whole question, but that would be to study poetry. By definition poetry is about images and rhythem. Just seems like it might help her learn how to "translate."

[Storm Bay]

Thanks. She hates studying poetry, but is going to be doing some of this for English, and I think I'll make her memorize some of it as both of you have suggested. She only wants to memorize little snippets of things she likes, but I already told her I might have her memorize a speech from Romeo & Juliette or something. She hates this as much as she hates writing essays, but I'll work it in. If it's too overwhelming to do a lot of this this semester (she has a lot of reading, etc to do) I'll have her do it over the summer. Perhaps we can even take a 2 person scene and each memorize the lines for one character and act it out together (I like the idea, but will she?) Speech & debate are good suggestions, too, I think, but that will have to wait until next year or so. And you're saying that by doing this she'll be able to learn to translate mind picture to words?

 

With the math, she has no trouble writing out Algebra problems & solutions, etc, but to write or say the definitions of Geometric theorems & postulates is a whole other story even though she can correctly use them in two column proofs (most of the time.) That's where it came up most recently. She reads those, looks at the illustrations and then remembers them by picturing them rather than the words. She can memorize words on a page by how they look if she wants to (just learned that yesterday after posting the day before) so that might help if I can convince her to do it.

 

She can write and discuss many things, but it comes up in certain areas such as definitions, explaining certain kinds of intangible things (but not all intangible things.) What she tells me is that it's because she can think of them in pictures but not in words, even though she can read & understand the words.

 

Outlines we're flexible on, she just balks at writing in general. When she was in ps she got great marks for writing in K-2 and even won for the best poem about the library out of all the second graders in the school (4-5 classes.) But she didn't think of it as a poem because it didn't rhyme. Also, at that age, she wasn't trying to write out definitions for theorems, postulates, words with complex meanings, etc.

[Rosie_0801]

I wonder if studying plays would help; reading Pymalion and watching My Fair Lady would show her how a movie can be put onto paper, and vice versa. Turning the movie in her mind to a script would be a step in the right direction. Once she's accomplished at that, it should be easier to learn to fluff it out into an essay. I still think learning to sign would help. It would be another intermediate step between her mind and English.

 

Rosie

Edited February 5, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Storm Bay]

I wonder if studying plays would help; reading Pymalion and watching My Fair Lady would show her how a movie can be put onto paper, and vice versa. Turning the movie in her mind to a script would be a step in the right direction. Once she's accomplished at that, it should be easier to learn to fluff it out into an essay. I still think learning to sign would help. It would be another intermediate step between her mind and English.

 

Rosie

 

 

That's right, signing. I pulled our video course out and put it back forgetting exactly why I put it out. It's not enough, of course, but it would be a start. My dc & I could learn it together.

 

I like that idea of watching a play & reading the script, too, but then I did theatre in high school. Or watching a movie & reading the screenplay; I think there are some available online, too. Although screenplays might not be the best idea since there are other things thrown in not found in a stage script. She can write dialogue in her own stories, but has a lot of trouble with writing good description, but still this could help her. Of course with Pygmalian he gave two different endings to the play (director's choice) and the movie has the happy ending. I wonder how close the play is to the movie. I love that musical, so it would be a great excuse to watch Audrey Hepburn lipsync "All I want is a room somewhere..." I don't know why I like that song so much, but I do.

 

So, poetry, signing, memorizing speeches, movies with scripts. It's worth a try, for sure, because all of this is beneficial as part of education, anyway.

[Rosie_0801]

That's right, signing. I pulled our video course out and put it back forgetting exactly why I put it out. It's not enough, of course, but it would be a start. My dc & I could learn it together.

 

 

I'd start by going really heavy on classifiers. Classifiers are good for everyone, but they would be especially good for getting pictures out of your daughter's brain. When appropriate, you can do exercises where she needs to turn the classifiers into signed vocab, and when not appropriate, into spoken/ written English. It's a rather long term partial solution, but this is going to be a long term problem...

 

Although screenplays might not be the best idea since there are other things thrown in not found in a stage script.

 

Maybe that is a good thing. Perhaps you can have her "proof read" the movie and make those annotations on the movie script to make it more accurate? Attention to detail is always a useful thing to practice, and having her make those non dialogue amendments is writing, even if it is small and non-imaginative.

 

She can write dialogue in her own stories, but has a lot of trouble with writing good description, but still this could help her.

 

It's a step in the right direction, not the be all and end all, certainly. Maybe she'll find it easier to think of descriptions if she is thinking like a movie producer trying to communicate *exactly* how she wants the actor to act?

 

Of course with Pygmalian he gave two different endings to the play (director's choice) and the movie has the happy ending. I wonder how close the play is to the movie.

 

The movie was waaaaay better, and I hardly ever say that.

 

:)

Rosie

[Storm Bay]

I'd start by going really heavy on classifiers. Classifiers are good for everyone, but they would be especially good for getting pictures out of your daughter's brain. When appropriate, you can do exercises where she needs to turn the classifiers into signed vocab, and when not appropriate, into spoken/ written English. It's a rather long term partial solution, but this is going to be a long term problem...

 

 

 

Maybe that is a good thing. Perhaps you can have her "proof read" the movie and make those annotations on the movie script to make it more accurate? Attention to detail is always a useful thing to practice, and having her make those non dialogue amendments is writing, even if it is small and non-imaginative.

 

 

 

It's a step in the right direction, not the be all and end all, certainly. Maybe she'll find it easier to think of descriptions if she is thinking like a movie producer trying to communicate *exactly* how she wants the actor to act?

 

 

 

The movie was waaaaay better, and I hardly ever say that.

 

:)

Rosie

 

 

Thanks. This is great and your points about the screenplay are good ones. And, yes, My Fair Lady is much better than the play, and I hardly ever say that because I was a hard core theatre fan who in high school thought screen acting wasn't real acting.

 

If you could help me, what do you mean by classifiers?

[Rosie_0801]

If you could help me, what do you mean by classifiers?

 

 

Um...It's kind of hard to describe something that moves in writing, isn't it? Heheh. I'll do my best though!

 

Signed languages have a few non linguistic strategies and classifiers are the most important of that category because they encompass a lot of the adjectives, amongst other things. A classifier in a spoken language (as far as I can understand and I'm worrying less about accurate linguistics and more about getting the idea across) tells how something is located. So in this example, "the chips are in the bowl on the table," the classifier is "in the bowl," because that is the part of the sentence that describes how they are, they are arranged the way chips are when they are in a bowl. Clear as mud?

 

In a signed language, classifiers are much more important. I'm searching my memory (and google!) but one kind is handling classifiers. They are a bit like mimes. You don't sign "I + hold + jug." You show your hand as it would hold a jug. Pronouns are another kind of classifier. You don't sign "i + walk + up + step," you demonstrate your fingers walking up imaginary steps. You don't say "tube + long +thin" you mime the shape with your hands, exactly how long and how thin. Signed languages are a bit interesting in that sometimes it's impossible to talk about something unless you know where it is or what it looks like. People who are really buttkickingly good at classifiers can talk about nearly anything without using any actual vocab. My classifiers teacher at tafe was like that. It was very cool. Your daughter, with training, would be a natural at that, unlike us vocab oriented folks :)

 

Ah, here's a useful site: http://www.jalc.edu/ipp/Classifiers/

 

Did that help at all?

 

Rosie

[lllll]

Thanks. She hates studying poetry, but is going to be doing some of this for English, and I think I'll make her memorize some of it as both of you have suggested. She only wants to memorize little snippets of things she likes, but I already told her I might have her memorize a speech from Romeo & Juliette or something. She hates this as much as she hates writing essays, but I'll work it in. If it's too overwhelming to do a lot of this this semester (she has a lot of reading, etc to do) I'll have her do it over the summer. Perhaps we can even take a 2 person scene and each memorize the lines for one character and act it out together (I like the idea, but will she?) Speech & debate are good suggestions, too, I think, but that will have to wait until next year or so. And you're saying that by doing this she'll be able to learn to translate mind picture to words?

 

With the math, she has no trouble writing out Algebra problems & solutions, etc, but to write or say the definitions of Geometric theorems & postulates is a whole other story even though she can correctly use them in two column proofs (most of the time.) That's where it came up most recently. She reads those, looks at the illustrations and then remembers them by picturing them rather than the words. She can memorize words on a page by how they look if she wants to (just learned that yesterday after posting the day before) so that might help if I can convince her to do it.

 

She can write and discuss many things, but it comes up in certain areas such as definitions, explaining certain kinds of intangible things (but not all intangible things.) What she tells me is that it's because she can think of them in pictures but not in words, even though she can read & understand the words.

 

Outlines we're flexible on, she just balks at writing in general. When she was in ps she got great marks for writing in K-2 and even won for the best poem about the library out of all the second graders in the school (4-5 classes.) But she didn't think of it as a poem because it didn't rhyme. Also, at that age, she wasn't trying to write out definitions for theorems, postulates, words with complex meanings, etc.

 

I remember doing this when I was young. I'm sure that's how I got through Alg. I with straight A's, not having a clue what I was doing. :tongue_smilie: However, it became almost impossible to rely on that method in college due to the tremendous amount of material covered. And as I've gotten older, I've noticed I've developed more hands-on and verbal (vs entirely visual) ways of remembering things.

 

No real suggestions, however. You might point out the need to work on other methods for 'back up' when she hits college.

[justamouse]

Poetry. As few, but precise words as she can, and build from there once she is more familiar with finding the analogies she needs.

[Barbara]

Your daughter sounds a little like my son. He is very much a visual/spatial learner. He's 17 now and when I look back at all the ways I tried to make him learn information that were against his learning style, I just cringe. It is so much about the big picture for him and the way information is connected.....not about the details.

 

With that said, he does love literature, reading, and vocabulary. He did take a world history/world literature class last year at a local co-op that was wonderful. His teacher was very good at combining the two subjects to create a big picture. He did have to write about specific details and give presentations, but I think he was able to do it because she somehow provided the big picture in class. I know she had the students outline the chapters of the book...perhaps that provided the framework he needed. Plus she gave them a timeline of events/dates. My son could never memorize all the dates (and the teacher didn't expect them to), but it did provide the big picture and kept everything organized visually. She used a history book as a spine and then wove literature into the course as she went along.

 

A recent example of son's visual learning happened recently in his spanish class. The teacher had an oral quiz, and my son kept guessing the wrong answer in a predictable pattern based on how he was visualizing the study page. The teacher finally stopped and said "You know, the correct answer is one blank over from the answer you're guessing"....my son got the correct answer then and didn't miss another one. So, right or wrong, that's the way he memorizes...by what it looks like on the page! I'm certain this isn't the best way to learn a language, and thank goodness, they are using other methods in class, but it's still his learning style. I'm a lot like this myself so I'm surprised it took me so many years to catch on, but I wish I had been more aware of this and used it to his advantage when he was younger.

 

If you google visual/spatial, maybe you'll find some information that might be useful and more specific to your situation.

 

My son always tells me "Mom, I can do the writing and analyzing when I have to, but it's not something I want to do all the time." I do agree it takes away the joy of reading literature for him. From time to time I get all worried about it, and he proves to me that he can indeed write the papers and analyze the literature when he needs to. I'm sure he would benefit from more practice and more writing, but there is a point at which he stops loving the reading and literature. I never want that to happen!

 

Sorry I've rambled here. This is just my personal experience....

 

 

.

[Storm Bay]

Um...It's kind of hard to describe something that moves in writing, isn't it? Heheh. I'll do my best though!

 

Signed languages have a few non linguistic strategies and classifiers are the most important of that category because they encompass a lot of the adjectives, amongst other things.

 

Ah, here's a useful site: http://www.jalc.edu/ipp/Classifiers/

 

Did that help at all?

 

Rosie

 

 

Yes, this link helped a lot. It is hard to put in words but I think I have the idea now. They fill a few roles. It would take some doing to learn them all & understand them (such as O & C since both seem to be used for similar and even almost the same things sometimes). We have some video course I bought my first year homeschooling used that is a 2 week course to introduce signing, so we could start with that combined with a book we have. There is a woman who teaches sign language, but it's always too far & pricey for what we can do right now with three dc.

[Storm Bay]

Your daughter sounds a little like my son.

Sorry I've rambled here. This is just my personal experience....

 

 

.

Thanks--reading about your experience lets me know we're not alone & that there is no one solution. I agree with your ds--analyzing lit takes all the fun out of reading it but some has to be done in high school English. My dd does remember words by how they look on a page and I wonder if she could do the same thing your ds did with that page if she studied hard enough. That teacher was on the ball figuring out what your ds did. DD actually understands algebra (I had her do Alg 1 twice) and can think that way (last summer she was even formulating algebra problems in her head for things in everyday life), which is why I was surprised she has so much trouble with the Geometry proofs & theorems at first, but then it made sense when she explained it. Perhaps she's using different parts of her brain, but I really don't know enough about it to be sure.

 

Dd has a great vocab & was an early talker. She has enough vs traits that she is probably vs, but I have another one who is so much more obviously vs that it's hard to be totally sure if she's totally vs or a mix.

 

This forum is such a help.

[Storm Bay]

Poetry. As few, but precise words as she can, and build from there once she is more familiar with finding the analogies she needs.

 

Thanks. I'll try to start simply.

[Rosie_0801]

There is a woman who teaches sign language, but it's always too far & pricey for what we can do right now with three dc.

 

See if you can find a uni student to tutor you. You'll only be getting what you pay for, but you shouldn't be paying huge amounts for the basics anyway. Or contact your deaf association and see if they know of someone who would tutor your kids in classifiers only, while you work on basic vocab in your own time. A deaf person only needs a white board and a pen to teach you classifiers if you don't sign yet. Even a high school deaf student, but get recommendations from their teachers. Not all deaf people have good language skills...

 

Don't know if they are options, but worth asking around.

 

Rosie

[Storm Bay]

See if you can find a uni student to tutor you. You'll only be getting what you pay for, but you shouldn't be paying huge amounts for the basics anyway. Or contact your deaf association and see if they know of someone who would tutor your kids in classifiers only, while you work on basic vocab in your own time. A deaf person only needs a white board and a pen to teach you classifiers if you don't sign yet. Even a high school deaf student, but get recommendations from their teachers. Not all deaf people have good language skills...

 

Don't know if they are options, but worth asking around.

 

Rosie

 

Thanks. I'm not sure how much of this I can do immediately, but I think your suggestion is good. Classifiers appear to me to add a LOT to vocabulary in signing.

[Rosie_0801]

Classifiers appear to me to add a LOT to vocabulary in signing.

 

How would English be if we knocked out most of the adjectives, adverbs and a bunch of nouns? That's about what classifiers are to ASL (and any other natural sign language.) There are certain correct ways of forming classifiers, and I can't explain because I know there are differences between Auslan and ASL, but once you know those rules, you can do anything you like.

 

Rosie

[Storm Bay]

How would English be if we knocked out most of the adjectives, adverbs and a bunch of nouns? That's about what classifiers are to ASL (and any other natural sign language.) There are certain correct ways of forming classifiers, and I can't explain because I know there are differences between Auslan and ASL, but once you know those rules, you can do anything you like.

 

Rosie

 

Wow, English would be a LOT different. Personally, I think it would be very confusing to switch from one to the other. But then, having done some mime work back when I was younger, I can see that it could work when you're using motions rather than words.

[Rosie_0801]

But then, having done some mime work back when I was younger, I can see that it could work when you're using motions rather than words.

 

There you go! You'll be good at it then! Mime is an important part of signing and the more practice you have, the more you are able to think the right way for a signed language.

 

:)

Rosie

[Storm Bay]

There you go! You'll be good at it then! Mime is an important part of signing and the more practice you have, the more you are able to think the right way for a signed language.

 

:)

Rosie

 

 

Excellent. I loved miming. Now we just need to make the time. She is bogged down in school (huge lollygagger) but perhaps this summer I can do something if she'll agree. Too bad we didn't pursue this better before she was a teen.