How do colleges evaluate your homeschool curriculum choices?

[beachmom]

When browsing through general college websites, like College Confidential, I keep seeing exhortations to "take most challenging curriculum possible" or "the most challenging curriculum available." I can see what that would mean to a public or private school student who takes what his school offers.

 

What does "the most challenging curriculum available" mean to a homeschooler? Are we expected to take AP classes because they're online? If we live near a CC are we expected to enroll there? How are homeschoolers evaluated on their curriculum choices in eyes of college admission personnel?

 

Thanks for your input!

[Faithr]

I think that because colleges can't really evaluate what kind of rigor your student had in various courses at home, they rely heavily on SAT scores, SAT subject tests, AP exams, Community college courses. They like outside the home corroboration of what is asserted in your homeschool transcript.

[creekland]

Ditto what was said above, plus they want to see all the "normal" courses a student would have had in high school based on the college and major.

 

We don't skip Physics - even for my non-science bound students. We go up to at least Pre-Calc, and it will be Calc for my two more mathy kids. We study four years of some sort of history/geography, not three. We have four years of a language.

 

Then we back up what we can with SAT/ACT scores. My oldest only had one cc class (English Comp 101) for an outside grade, but with really good SAT/ACT scores that was all he needed - no AP and no SAT 2. That latter choice was dependent on his college choices. Originally I was planning on having him take SAT 2 tests as a couple of his potential college choices wanted them. We dropped it when his direction changed (and his direction didn't change because of the tests - it was due to the major he wanted and college visits).

 

My middle son is likely to need SAT 2 and/or AP. He's just a sophomore so we'll be looking more closely at potential colleges for him this coming spring - mainly to see what they want. I'm also having him take the ACT this spring in anticipation of taking cc classes as a junior IF I can get them to take him in early (they generally only want seniors around here).

 

I haven't had any colleges care about what actual curricula we used - as long as we showed results of having learned what is needed for college level courses. One did want a list of what was covered in each course - we used the Table of Contents to get that. We also finish every book.

[beachmom]

I see where you are coming from regarding "some" outside verification. I plan on doing that when the time approaches.

 

I guess I don't get it when I read on these college boards about high school kids doing 10 or more APs, elaborate extra-curriculars activities (look great on paper), walking on water, etc. When is enough enough? Then you read where these same kids are getting turned down to "x" college. I also read "The Overachievers" and have pictures of those kids in my mind.

 

I guess I want a voice of sanity to speak and tell me your kids don't have to do all of this. I'm glad you're saying this!

 

I'd love to hear from someone others on this topic.

[creekland]

A bit of this will also depend on what kind of college you're looking at. I find College Confidential to be only somewhat useful as many there are looking for an Ivy League education (or similar). We don't want that for our kids. Ivies are reaches for everyone - even with perfect test scores.

 

Colleges below Ivies don't need as much, still have good reputations, tend to cost less, and provide a great education IMO.

 

Beware though, there are also really low academic colleges. The cost for those can be less yet (more merit aid), but generally the education is of a lesser quality as well. This won't matter for a "basic" job, but can matter when it comes to grad school for those to whom it applies.

 

To get a feel for how academic a college is, check out the college at collegeboard.com and compare SAT/ACT scores of students. Teachers can teach to the caliber of the students. It's also a good site to see where your student might fit in for their education, as well as for any sort of merit aid. Sending a student to a school where they are in the lower 25% of students might leave them overchallenged and discouraged - plus be difficult to get into to start with. Sending them to a place where they are in the top 25% of students can lead to nice merit aid. Having them be really FAR into the top 25% can leave them underchallenged and disillusioned - not to mention the possibility of an inferior education if they actually want to use what they've learned on the job or in grad school.

 

What your student will need depends on their goals for their education.

 

Just to be fair to college confidential, I've learned a really good bit of info as it will concern my second son. He wants to go into medical research. My natural inclination was telling me he'd have to gun for top level schools (Ivies or equivalent). Every single pre-med thread has shown me that this is not at all true - and can be potentially bad in higher debt and a more competitive environment. A slightly lesser school can easily provide a path for him with merit aid for undergrad (less debt prior to grad school) and good acceptance rates into grad school. The most important thing for us is to check those acceptance rates at schools he's interested in.

 

Therefore, there's good and bad on that site... read and sift. Don't think everyone out there has a 2600 SAT, 37 ACT, and extra curriculars that take up 25 hours of each day [sic for all]. If you want to be competitive at an Ivy, you'll want to be as close to the above as possible whether homeschooling or not. If not, there are considerably more options.

[delaney]

I have no idea but I had discussed with DH that if the younger 3 never went to any public that perhaps a strong basis at the local CC would be enough to then transfer to a regular 4 year. DH is in the technology field and said that he looks less for college and more for experience b/c colleges don't really teach what he needs to hire! Microsoft training and certifications mean more to him.

[Yolanda in Mass]

To get a feel for how academic a college is, check out the college at collegeboard.com and compare SAT/ACT scores of students. Teachers can teach to the caliber of the students. It's also a good site to see where your student might fit in for their education, as well as for any sort of merit aid. Sending a student to a school where they are in the lower 25% of students might leave them overchallenged and discouraged - plus be difficult to get into to start with. Sending them to a place where they are in the top 25% of students can lead to nice merit aid. Having them be really FAR into the top 25% can leave them underchallenged and disillusioned - not to mention the possibility of an inferior education if they actually want to use what they've learned on the job or in grad school.

 

 

 

Although I can't speak specifically to the thread topic, I did want to echo what creekland said about matching your student's academic abilities to the school's student body. This may not be the best example, but my 19yos (homeschool grad) is in cc and has had, with one exception, outstanding teachers. However, these teachers can't challenge him as they have to teach to the low caliber of student; I'm speaking in generalities, of course. I know there are some highly motivated and prepared students at his cc, just not enough. All this to say that as he applies to 4-year colleges we are looking very carefully at the grades and SAT/ACT scores of the student body to make sure he's in that mid-50% range.

 

Yolanda

[K-FL]

DH is in the technology field and said that he looks less for college and more for experience b/c colleges don't really teach what he needs to hire! Microsoft training and certifications mean more to him.

 

My sister works for AT&T & says the same thing. Even if they have the degree (which will help w/promotions, etc) the certificates are what they REALLY need.

 

Just an aside re: tech schools. DH is a HVAC-R contractor & has no use for kids who have done tech school. Mainly because they come out w/all the theory, but no real knowledge. Thus, they are not as smart as they think they are & are un-teachable.

[stripe]

When browsing through general college websites, like College Confidential, I keep seeing exhortations to "take most challenging curriculum possible" or "the most challenging curriculum available." I can see what that would mean to a public or private school student who takes what his school offers.

But even in this case, it's not like a high school student has a choice between Dolciani and Puffball math programs.

[Brenda in MA]

I guess I don't get it when I read on these college boards about high school kids doing 10 or more APs, elaborate extra-curriculars activities (look great on paper), walking on water, etc. When is enough enough? Then you read where these same kids are getting turned down to "x" college. I also read "The Overachievers" and have pictures of those kids in my mind.

 

I guess I want a voice of sanity to speak and tell me your kids don't have to do all of this. I'm glad you're saying this!

 

Beachmom,

 

No, your kids don't need to do tons of APs, etc. to get into a good college. Strong test scores and some outside verification of efforts (CC grades, SAT2 exams, a few APs) will give the colleges the assurance they need that your student will be able to succeed there. However, if you have a very strong academically-oriented homeschooler, if he/she can do many APs, etc. it will definitely help them compete for some top scholarships at competitive schools (if that is their goal, and for many, it's not).

 

I really think that the big advantage homeschoolers have is .... time. They have time to develop their passions. Time to explore their interests. Time to volunteer. Time to get real-world work experience. There is always a tradeoff to be made.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to find a homeschooling approach for high school that is comfortable for your student and your family. If the student wishes to attend college, then he/she will need at least some outside verification of his/her abilities that could include some or all of the following: SAT2 tests, CC grades, AP scores, courses from an accredited school.

 

For some folks, this will mean doing most of their high school courses at home and taking a few tests and some CC courses towards the end of high school. For others, it will mean dual enrolling the student at the local CC at the age of 16 or so and letting them finish their high school years at the CC. For others, it might mean self-studying for APs at home or taking AP courses at their local high school or on-line. There is no one right path for every student.

 

I think it's true that kids from public or private schools are pressured to sign-up for as many AP courses as possible. After all, when they apply to college, they are compared with all the other students from their school. The GC has to answer the question, "Is the student taking the most rigorous courses possible?" A lot of times, this forces students into taking courses they are either not prepared for or are not genuinely interested in. The shame of this is that these same kids will spend hours on these courses that they don't enjoy and miss out on the chance to explore their interests, get a job, or develop a hobby.

 

My experience last year with a son applying to college with just a couple of SAT2 exams, a couple of on-line courses, and 4 CC courses was very positive. You don't have to do it all, and homeschoolers have more freedom to choose what they want to do.

 

Brenda

Edited February 3, 2010 by Brenda in MA

[Nan in Mass]

It is a state college and isn't particularly competative. I think they were quite happy to take my son, provided there was a reasonable chance that he could do the work. They didn't have a lot of experience with homeschoolers, so they ignored that part and judged him by what they knew: community college classes from a community college with which they were familiar, his SAT scores, and his brother (a current student). His scores were on the high end of their students for English and in the middle for math. He had math, English, and science classes and some nice recommendations from the CC. And his brother was doing fine. The school has quite a few sibling groups, and I suspect they looked at his SAT and CC, said no problem there, and then looked at his interview and his brother to figure out whether the school would actually be a good fit for him. They were completely uncurious about the homeschooling both in the paperwork and in the interview, other than wanting proof that he was homeschooling legally. The fact that he was involved with a sport (gymnastics) and had a recommendation from his coach probably didn't hurt, either.

 

The next son may want to go to a more competative college. AP tests don't really suit our educational strategy, so we will do the same thing again: SAT scores and math, science, and English CC classes. We are keeping in mind that he may have to take SAT2s. He has a sport (gymnastics), he has travelled, he has a nerdy extra curricular activity; it should be fairly easy for colleges to see him as a person and not just a list of classes.

 

If you want to go ivy league, then I think you need to have either done something spectacular in the world, something that would make colleges want to be able to say that you were one of their students, or you have to show that you are interesting, adult, well-grounded, and can do academics easily (all those AP tests). Homeschoolers are lucky enough to be able to do the first more easily than public schooled students because they have the time and flexibility. If you haven't done the first already, then ivy league colleges are looking for indications that you have the potential to do it later in your life. The education they offer is one that is most easily absorbably if one has a very high academic IQ, the sort of IQ that testing measures (not something like interpersonal IQ, which testing ignores). The AP tests and SATs measure that fairly well, so ivy leagues use them. I know people like that, and for them, a perfect score on the SAT isn't something very difficult to achieve. Neither are good scores on multiple AP tests. I think if you don't have the type of student for whom it isn't a horrible sacrifice of their childhood to do many APs, you shouldn't try. It defeats the purpose if you burn out trying to get there. If you can take multiple AP classes and still play a sport and do debate team and invent a new sort of robot, then go for it. If you have to choose, then I think you are better off looking at less competative colleges and learning some of those other things that you are supposed to learn as a teenager, the things that don't show up on AP tests. Look at the average SAT scores for the colleges and make sure your student isn't so much higher that the classes will be a repeat of high school, look at the number of out-of-state students to make sure that your student's friends will expand his world, make sure that the college offers some interesting things (clubs, classes, travel opportunities, research opportunities) that will help your child grow, look at whether the environment is going to be a distraction (too far from home? party school? country child trapped in the city?) and consider whether the student's young adulthood will be seriously crippled by the amount of debt incurred. Decide how you are going to show colleges that your student can do that college's work and is someone who will contribute to the student body and in the future be desirable as one of "their" students. Go read this article: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/01/13/admissions

And try not to worry so much about it that it gets in the way of your student's education, real education. Easier said than done, I know. Sigh. We all go through spells of panic about this. You have to take a deep breath, step back, check to make sure you are both on track and being sensible, and then keep going.

-Nan

Edited February 3, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

PS - If your name is a reflection of how important the ocean is to your family, you might consider ruling out the entire middle of the country. My brother in law went inland for grad school and was so miserable that he almost didn't finish.

[stripe]

PS - If your name is a reflection of how important the ocean is to your family, you might consider ruling out the entire middle of the country. My brother in law went inland for grad school and was so miserable that he almost didn't finish.

Although there are the Great Lakes in the middle!

[Guest]

I recently read about the daughter of a Stanford admissions dean. The daughter finished up her AP French exam and said to her mother, "Now I never have to speak a word of French again." The mother was devastated and has since become an advocate of more seminar-style, in-depth high school classes over AP. Some very elite boarding schools back east, the kind that educate future presidents, are now also dropping AP in favor of in-depth classes that the students choose because of passionate interest.

 

This is one area where homeschoolers can make an argument -- perhaps on an admissions essay, or in a parent's school statement -- that they deliberately moved away from AP in favor of fostering their child's knowledge in a particular area, or to put the emphasis on critical analysis and thinking skills instead of memorization (which is largely what AP is). You and/or your child can make a very good argument for a different definition of learning and education in general.

 

Besides community college classes and SATs, there's also the whole idea of a gap year, currently being discussed in some detail over on SWB's education blog. During a gap year a student can do an internship, volunteer here or overseas, find a job, travel, take academic or non-academic classes, or any combination of these things. A student will add interesting, non-standard experiences to his transcript, make contacts for references, and have multiple demonstrations of his or her capabilities. A new book called "The Global Student" talks about avoiding the AP/SATs route altogether through a combination of gap-year type activities and CC classes, over two or more years.

 

I also agree with some of the posters who note that the AP frenzy is mostly geared toward the Ivies, that there are some wonderful liberal arts and sciences schools which may be more flexible and open to homeschoolers. Take a look at Loren Pope's book called, I think, "Colleges That Changes LIves," or something along those lines.

[Nan in Mass]

Well, I wasn't really thinking of them as the "middle", since they have water. I just know that if you grow up with hills and water, it can be pretty hard not to feel that the end of the world has just occurred when you find yourself someplace flat and dry.

[Nan in Mass]

I would also like to point out that it is possible to take that gap year as a series of gaps, every spring, say. My son spent about the equivalent of a school year peacewalking, doing it a few weeks or months at a time. This is rather inconvenient when it comes to learning math or foreign languages (which do better with continuity GRIN) but it does work.

-Nan

[EKS]

Puffball math programs.

 

:lol:

[stripe]

Well, I wasn't really thinking of them as the "middle", since they have water. I just know that if you grow up with hills and water, it can be pretty hard not to feel that the end of the world has just occurred when you find yourself someplace flat and dry.

I agree about "landscape shock," but I thought you were defining the middle as anything between the coasts. And the middle of the country isn't all like, say, Kansas. Isn't Minnesota called the land of a thousand lakes? And Kentucky and Pennsylvania, for example, are both very green and hilly, not at all dry and flat. So there are options besides Berkeley and NYU/Harvard/whatever.

 

I don't think this book is the be-all and end-all of this discussion, but it shows some creative options (someone on here posted about it, that's how I heard about it): The New Global Student: Skip the SAT, Save Thousands on Tuition, and Get a Truly International Education by Maya Frost . This is the book mentioned by Karen Anne. It contains a sort of rant against standardized test (esp the SAT) vs the International Baccalaureate program, or other more "creative" endeavors.

[Jane in NC]

So much depends on the college. The thing that I believe from reading college websites, a book or two on admissions, and following this board is that colleges do not expect every student to follow the same path. In fact, some of the competitive colleges seem almost suspicious of some of those Walk on Water students. (I have a friend who interviews for his Ivy League Alma Mater. He tells me that most of the students whom he interviews look fabulous on paper. When he meets them, he rarely recommends them because they show no passion, no desire to be at his former college. He thinks that parents often push these kids to apply.)

 

What I have learned from conversations with admissions officers: they like information unless they are at huge schools, in which case, they prefer to compare apples to apples. An admissions officer from one of the New Ivies told us that he recruits homeschoolers. He recommends that they attend a CC during their senior year to have outside verification of grades.

 

I have had admissions officers thank me for sending an eight page list of books and Teaching Company courses used, which included course descriptions from the CC and virtual school catalog.

 

I have said this before so forgive me for beating a dead horse: Where homeschoolers can excel beyond the traditionally schooled is by taking advantage of opportunities. Homeschoolers do not have to look like students from well known suburban schools. They can do things differently.

 

This is the mantra that my son has been repeating in interview after interview as he is considered for admissions and various scholarships. Being a homeschooler has allowed him to follow passions. One thing that we have done is find opportunities that are close to home. I think that a number of kids are padding their resumes with Habitat trips to Costa Rica (not that Habitat is a bad thing--I think it is a great organization) but one does not have to go far to do community service on an ongoing basis. My cynical brother-in-law, a prof at a highly competitive LAC, told me about reading through a stack of applications one year. He said that if every potential student had dedicated themselves to soup kitchens with the passion claimed on applications, the problem of hunger would be solved. Again, there is nothing wrong with working at a soup kitchen, but we know kids who only do it for a few hours so they can claim some sort of community service on a college applications. Sigh...

 

I cannot say we have Been There, Done That since my son is only in the application process. (All acceptances so far with some splendid merit aid being dangled.) I can say that I am happy we were able to blend what I consider a fairly rigorous curriculum (Great Books, Latin through AP, Dolciani math, three lab sciences at the CC, couple years of French, etc.) with time to pursue interests, like the college archaeological field school at which my son volunteered or his regular hands on work with the bird rehabilitator. He would not have been able to have participated in the field school last May if he had been at the local high school. He would not have hands on time with osprey and loons if he was in a classroom five days a week. These are the things that have shaped him, given him scope and make him interesting.

 

We know a homeschooler who built a sailboat in his urban apartment. The children of one of the participants on this board are peace walkers. We know a young lady who requested homeschooling so that she could spend more time working on her music studies. Every homeschooler has the chance to develop some interesting talent or passion. Even learning to walk on water...

 

Jane

[beachmom]

Wow, wow! Thanks for sharing your stories and opinions with me. Your responses have been very helpful. My dh read them and expressed his appreciation, too.

[Guest]

I would also like to point out that it is possible to take that gap year as a series of gaps, every spring, say. My son spent about the equivalent of a school year peacewalking, doing it a few weeks or months at a time. This is rather inconvenient when it comes to learning math or foreign languages (which do better with continuity GRIN) but it does work.

-Nan

 

I've read about your son on another thread and wondered how it all fit in!! I would really like to hear more about how it all actually works out: how you fund it, how much planning goes on, how he meets up with people, etc. It sounds so fantastic.

[jld]

Yes, thank you Nan and Jane for sharing your experiences here. It really helps those of us new to homeschooling high school, and planning for what may come after!