Lancet retracts vaccine/autism study

[kmacnchs]

I have a Q for you all with children who were fully vaxed and have severe allergies, etc...when did they start showing up?

 

Truthfully, the only argument I have ever heard for delayed or not vaxing were b/c of autism, which my dh has always said is false. My dc are fully vaxed (dh is a pediatric nurse and that is where his loyalties lie, so to speak) and there is nothing wrong with them so I was wondering when others' issues began to surface...

 

Recently, I have learned not to trust everyone in the medical profession blindly (my SIL is having a SEVERLY deformed baby b/c her dr said as long as she stopped taking her migraine meds b4 she conceived, the baby would be fine...she did, and her baby IS NOT)...

[FO4UR]

I have a Q for you all with children who were fully vaxed and have severe allergies, etc...when did they start showing up?

 

 

 

For my ds:

 

mild eczema at 6mo

 

got behind on shots....got caught up (meaning he had a bunch close together) at 3yo

 

anaphylactic reaction at 3yo

 

SEVERE eczema after the anaphylactic reaction at 3yo

 

onset of asthma symptoms, which are quite severe at 3yo

 

 

My other dc do not have asthma/allergies/eczema.

[Dana]

I have a Q for you all with children who were fully vaxed and have severe allergies, etc...when did they start showing up?

 

Ds has been vaxed on schedule.

 

He was diagnosed with a dairy allergy at 3 months (breastfed the whole time so at least we didn't have an issue with finding safe formula). He had anaphylaxis to cashews at 5 - it wasn't near vaccinations (other than he may have had some in the prior 4 months but I don't recall).

 

I'd think the allergies are more likely a response to pesticides/factory farming/etc, rather than vaccinations, but I have no studies to back that up. We'll continue to vaccinate.

[asta]

Recently, I have learned not to trust everyone in the medical profession blindly (my SIL is having a SEVERLY deformed baby b/c her dr said as long as she stopped taking her migraine meds b4 she conceived, the baby would be fine...she did, and her baby IS NOT)...

 

There are a lot of factors involved in this one.

 

What kind of migraine? Some migraines are simple vascular abnormalities. Others are extremely complex neurological messes that result from genetic problems.

 

Which migraine med? Some have been on the market a long time and the studies show that they have a *relatively* low birth defect rate (no neurological medication has a good birth defect rating - none of them). Others are relatively new to the market and the data simply isn't there.

 

How long after going off of the medication did she conceive? A typical anti-convulsant (the medications most often used for migraine nowadays) will leave the blood in under a week, but will not leave the organs and tissues for up to 3-4 months.

 

I truly sympathize with your sister. Being on anti-convulsants, however, I don't trust ANYONE - doctor, pharmacist, neighbor - ANYONE to tell me the nitty gritty about a medication. I read that stupid finely printed paper from the pharmaceutical company (all bazillion pages of it) myself. And if I don't understand some of the words, I look them up. Believe it or not, "big pharma" actually does disclose darn near every single nasty thing their drug is capable of doing - it's just our responsibility to read it. It's too bad our doctors aren't doing the same thing.

 

 

a

[kmacnchs]

There are a lot of factors involved in this one.

 

What kind of migraine? Some migraines are simple vascular abnormalities. Others are extremely complex neurological messes that result from genetic problems.

 

Which migraine med? Some have been on the market a long time and the studies show that they have a *relatively* low birth defect rate (no neurological medication has a good birth defect rating - none of them). Others are relatively new to the market and the data simply isn't there.

 

How long after going off of the medication did she conceive? A typical anti-convulsant (the medications most often used for migraine nowadays) will leave the blood in under a week, but will not leave the organs and tissues for up to 3-4 months.

 

I truly sympathize with your sister. Being on anti-convulsants, however, I don't trust ANYONE - doctor, pharmacist, neighbor - ANYONE to tell me the nitty gritty about a medication. I read that stupid finely printed paper from the pharmaceutical company (all bazillion pages of it) myself. And if I don't understand some of the words, I look them up. Believe it or not, "big pharma" actually does disclose darn near every single nasty thing their drug is capable of doing - it's just our responsibility to read it. It's too bad our doctors aren't doing the same thing.

 

 

a

 

the one that starts w/a "T"? I don't remember.

She was off of it for 3 mo b4 conception and the dr still says there is no reason the drug should have done this ('this' being multiple missing limbs) however, they cannot explain it any other way (no amniotic fluid bands or anything) and this is one side-effect of the drug so...

I just hate it for her and my brother...:grouphug:

I am a "what if" person (I KNOW, I KNOW, I SHOULDN'T BE, BUT I AM) and I would HATE to be all "what iffy" about vaccinations...

[asta]

That is very, very sad for your family.

 

The drug is most likely Topamax.

 

Encourage her to notify the Antiepileptic Drug Pregnancy Registry. They are who keep track of things like this, and are who initially reported this type of defect.

 

 

a

[Haiku]

I have a Q for you all with children who were fully vaxed and have severe allergies, etc...when did they start showing up?

 

My dd is fully vaxed and has allergies to milk and soy. The milk allergy showed up before she received any vaccinations.

 

My ds is also fully vaxed. However, he was adopted at age two and had not received vaxes before he was adopted. He has allergies, asthma, and eczema, all of which showed up before he was vaxed.

 

Tara

[katilac]

My reality:

 

I totally, completely, 100% believe the parents who say they had a normally developing baby/child who changed dramatically, substantially and pervasively in the hours after the administration of a shot.

 

Asked in honest curiousity: are there any links on the web that show video of children before and afer the vaccine/changes? I once read an article by a doctor that pointed out that video cameras are quite pervasive these days, so you would think the anti-vaccine sites would have plenty of video of routinely developing kids, with follow-up video of them after the vaccine side effects. I thought that was a good point - - the vast majority of children are on videotape, so sheer numbers would mean at least some of the kids with vaccine reactions would be. Such videos would be compelling evidence to most people.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My dd is fully vaxed and has allergies to milk and soy. The milk allergy showed up before she received any vaccinations.

 

My ds is also fully vaxed. However, he was adopted at age two and had not received vaxes before he was adopted. He has allergies, asthma, and eczema, all of which showed up before he was vaxed.

 

Tara

Yes but they start giving vaccines in the first month of life or so. Did you delay vaccinations?

 

 

Obviously I think there can be other factors as well.

[Corraleno]

I would love to see studies to support this evidence you speak of. Afterall, I make my decisions based on scientific evidence. Do you have any to support your statements?

 

I don't know what kind of "scientific evidence" you are looking for, since the information I gave was basically historical/factual. How would you do a "scientific study" to prove that half the members of the committee that recommends mandatory vaccines have financial ties to Big Pharma? There is more than enough info out there if you care to look. For example:

 

But while public-health officials may have been well-intentioned, many of those on the CDC advisory committee who backed the additional vaccines had close ties to the industry. Dr. Sam Katz, the committee's chair, was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and was part of a team that developed the measles vaccine and brought it to licensure in 1963. Dr. Neal Halsey, another committee member, worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies and received honoraria from Abbott Labs for his research on the hepatitis B vaccine.

 

Indeed, in the tight circle of scientists who work on vaccines, such conflicts of interest are common. Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight." The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four of the eight CDC advisors who approved guidelines for a rotavirus vaccine "had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were developing different versions of the vaccine."

 

[CDC vaccine advisor Paul] Offit, who shares a patent on one of the vaccines, acknowledged to me that he "would make money" if his vote eventually leads to a marketable product. But he dismissed my suggestion that a scientist's direct financial stake in CDC approval might bias his judgment.

http://www.southerncrossreview.org/41/kennedy.htm

(there are many other sources of this same information, this is just an easy place to find it)

 

When the CDC recommends (or mandates) vaccines for all US children, the recommendations are more likely to be driven by the corporate self-interest of pharmaceutical companies than by public safety. We are the most vaccinated country in the world. Why do other advanced, 1st world countries ~ with lower rates of infant mortality, childhood cancer, autism, and many other issues ~ not think their children need the incredible number of vaccines our kids get? I wonder if their vaccine committees are on the payroll of pharmaceutical companies like our's are?

 

Jackie

[JillZ]

Why do other advanced, 1st world countries ~ with lower rates of infant mortality, childhood cancer, autism, and many other issues ~ not think their children need the incredible number of vaccines our kids get? I wonder if their vaccine committees are on the payroll of pharmaceutical companies like our's are?

 

Jackie

 

I'd like to see the citation for this also.

[katilac]

the one that starts w/a "T"? I don't remember.

She was off of it for 3 mo b4 conception and the dr still says there is no reason the drug should have done this ('this' being multiple missing limbs) however, they cannot explain it any other way (no amniotic fluid bands or anything) and this is one side-effect of the drug so...

I just hate it for her and my brother...:grouphug:

I am a "what if" person (I KNOW, I KNOW, I SHOULDN'T BE, BUT I AM) and I would HATE to be all "what iffy" about vaccinations...

 

If it makes you or your sis feel better, it's quite likely that the meds had nothing to do with this birth defect.

 

Many, if not most, birth defects cannot be explained. Amniotic bands are just one cause of congenital amputation, and of of the few that can be pinpointed. The lack of amniotic bands or another visible 'reason' is not at all odd or mysterious, but rather very common.

 

If she was taking Topamax, birth defects are indeed a side effect if taken while pregnant. But your sister didn't take it while pregnant, and Topamax has a half-life of less than a day (half is gone in a day, half of the remainder is gone in another day, etc) - - the chances of any traces of it being in her body after several months are miniscule, much less in harmful amounts.

 

And the birth defects most associated with it are cleft lip, cleft palate, and genital deformities (urinary issues and so on), not missing limbs.

 

I wanted to clarify this, not to argue with you, but to help you quit playing the what-if game. I really think this is just something that happened, and your sis taking Topamax in the past is incidental.

[Perry]

I don't know what kind of "scientific evidence" you are looking for, since the information I gave was basically historical/factual. How would you do a "scientific study" to prove that half the members of the committee that recommends mandatory vaccines have financial ties to Big Pharma? There is more than enough info out there if you care to look. For example:

 

 

http://www.southerncrossreview.org/41/kennedy.htm

(there are many other sources of this same information, this is just an easy place to find it)

 

When the CDC recommends (or mandates) vaccines for all US children, the recommendations are more likely to be driven by the corporate self-interest of pharmaceutical companies than by public safety. We are the most vaccinated country in the world. Why do other advanced, 1st world countries ~ with lower rates of infant mortality, childhood cancer, autism, and many other issues ~ not think their children need the incredible number of vaccines our kids get? I wonder if their vaccine committees are on the payroll of pharmaceutical companies like our's are?

 

Jackie

Which countries? Here's a link to European vaccine schedules. They are very similar to the US schedule.

[kmacnchs]

If it makes you or your sis feel better, it's quite likely that the meds had nothing to do with this birth defect.

 

Many, if not most, birth defects cannot be explained. Amniotic bands are just one cause of congenital amputation, and of of the few that can be pinpointed. The lack of amniotic bands or another visible 'reason' is not at all odd or mysterious, but rather very common.

 

If she was taking Topamax, birth defects are indeed a side effect if taken while pregnant. But your sister didn't take it while pregnant, and Topamax has a half-life of less than a day (half is gone in a day, half of the remainder is gone in another day, etc) - - the chances of any traces of it being in her body after several months are miniscule, much less in harmful amounts.

 

And the birth defects most associated with it are cleft lip, cleft palate, and genital deformities (urinary issues and so on), not missing limbs.

 

I wanted to clarify this, not to argue with you, but to help you quit playing the what-if game. I really think this is just something that happened, and your sis taking Topamax in the past is incidental.

 

 

It's hard to think of it as common since the only person anyone in our family knows (extended or otherwise) is a little girl who was adopted from China - I guess I could google statistics though...

 

it does help - thank you, really:grouphug:

[tex-mex]

Thanks for posting this -- this really bugged me when this late 90's study triggered all of these folks (i.e. Jenny McCarthy) claiming Autism is a result of immunizations. I am an Aspie, my older sister has Autism, and son is borderline Asperger's/PDD-NOS. My mom and granny had profiles of Autism for sure!

 

One thing that bugs me is the doctor in question got stripped of his medical license in the UK and is now in Austin, TX preaching his pseudo-science to unsupecting parents. :glare:

Edited February 4, 2010 by tex-mex

[tex-mex]

Quite right.

 

And the misinformation leads to vaccination avoidance that threatens individual and public health.

 

Bill

 

Bill -- you are so correct. Not only does my family deal with Autism Spectrum Disorders, but we have a rare liver (genetic) disease that compromises our immune system. I get so upset to hear folks who do not want to vaccinate and attend events/gathering while ill -- not realizing people like myself or my son can get gravely ill or hospitalized from their reckless behavior. I say if you believe this -- and get sick -- stay home and stop spreading the illness. That type of behavior IMO is simply self-centered.

[tex-mex]

Here's a newsflash for the posters on this thread who remain convinced that there has been some sort of modern explosion of autism spectrum disorder cases:

 

No there hasn't.

 

There has been an explosion of diagnoses (correct and incorrect).

 

Do you know what Aspergers was called in the 60s and prior? Retarded. Short Bus Rider. Institutionalized. In the 70s? Retarded. Weird. Smarty pants. The kid who got beat up.

 

asta

 

:iagree: Shoot, my whole family would have been labeled back in the 50's through the 70's. We were one weird eccentric bunch. Today, we have a "label". Go figure.

[Lawana]

I'm sorry, but I just can't get past "Lancet." To us, lancet means just that: the device dd uses to puncture her finger to produce a blood sample with which to test blood glucose. Dd has Type 1 diabetes and tests blood sugar (glucose) an average of 8 times a day. Fortunately for her, it has become a relatively painless procedure. But every time I lance my finger, it hurts for hours. I cry for the callouses dd has developed that allows her to lance without pain.

[tex-mex]

I doubt this is the one you are referring to, but the case that was "won" in the vaccine court was one in which a child had a pre-existing (but at the time undiagnosed) mitochondrial disorder which a vaccine then "set into motion" a series of events with a "bundle" if you will of symptoms and behaviors that coincide with what most people would call "autism". (Kind of how scientists are speculating that many people carry the gene for MS, but most people never have it "activated" by severe stress or injury)

 

This is a big problem that is being faced (or not) right now. There is no such thing as "autism" or "aspergers". There are "autism spectrum disorders". They onset from birth to around 3 years of age. More or less. They comprise some or all of a long list of behaviors. Some of the children have mild to severe somatic health issues accompanying their ASD, some do not. Some have serious learning disabilities, some do not. This is why the entire concept of CURE AUTISM NOW is so absurd: one might as well say CURE GENETIC DIVERSIFICATION NOW.

 

The most recent research into ASD is finding exactly what I mentioned before: it is a wiring issue. As in, how the brain is wired. And, since everyone's brain is slightly different, everyone's "version" of ASD is also different. Ergo, kinks, deletions, additions to one's DNA that may never have shown their pretty little faces along the family line, DO show up in an ASD wired brain, and, as a result, the person's body.

 

What researchers are trying to figure out is, why is the brain rewiring itself in this manner? Why is it moving away from, essentially, "being a generalist" towards "being a specialist"? It doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Only time will tell on this one.

 

 

a

 

If I can share, our family health history has revealed a genetic mutation that is X-Linked (passed from mother to daughter -- and passed to son who has the full blown disease which threatens infancy and leads to death). The big deal for our family is not the Autism. The big deal is that the genetic mutation is causing EVERYTHING... the co-morbidities overlapping our disease are numerous. (i.e. For myself, I also have Type II Diabetes) But the main culprit is the genetic mutation causing the Urea Cycle to not process nitrogen/excess ammonia in food -- resulting in toxic levels of ammonia building up in our bodies. And the organ being severely affected by the toxic build up of ammonia is the brain.

 

So, many people with our rare genetic (liver) disease are mildly to severely mentally "retarded", have mental illness, short term memory loss, Autism, and much more.

 

We are participating in 2 landmark studies on the brain for our disease (funded by the NIH) -- simply because researchers do not truly understand how the brain copes with trauma or diseases that affect it. The current round of data they are coming up with is very exciting... and will revolutionize the next 2 decades of brain research. But yes, it basically boils down to how the brain is being affected. And I suspect many illnesses or diseases will finally be pinpointed as an "overlapping" symptom of a bigger genetic mutation.

Edited February 4, 2010 by tex-mex

[LibraryLover]

Would someone please post the list of exactly what 38 vax a child is said to get. I have seen this number on the internet before, and I have seen the number 27 as wel. But I have never seen a listing of these 38 ...or 27.

 

If anyone has a fully vax'd say 16 yr old, would you please list the one she's had.

 

If you have a 6 yr old with all vax, would you please list those.

 

10 yr old?

 

This question is for those who followed the recommendations. Not delayers...but people who have done the whole deal.

 

When I go to the DCD site, there is nowhere near 38 vax for you basic child.

Edited February 4, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Dana]

If you have a 6 yr old with all vax, would you please list those.

 

 

Hep B - 3 shots

Polio - 4 shots

PCV7 - 4 shots

Hib - 4 shots

DTaP - 5 shots

MMR - 2 shots

Varicella - 1 shot

 

So that's 23 shots, plus the assorted flu vaccinations.

None of them were given around the time (not even same year) as the anaphylaxis to cashews.

 

My grandmother died because of a heart problem due to rubella, so I'm glad we have the vaccinations and my son's able to get them.

[Perry]

Would someone please post the list of exactly what 38 vax a child is said to get. I have seen this number on the internet before, and I have seen the number 27 as wel. But I have never seen a listing of these 38 ...or 27.

 

If anyone has a fully vax'd say 16 yr old, would you please list the one she's had.

 

If you have a 6 yr old with all vax, would you please list those.

 

10 yr old?

 

This question is for those who followed the recommendations. Not delayers...but people who have done the whole deal.

 

When I go to the DCD site, there is nowhere near 38 vax for you basic child.

 

There aren't 38 or 27 different vaccines. There are 12 recommended vaccines, but many of them require several boosters. They are counting each separate jab to come up with those numbers.

 

What childhood vaccines are recommended, and at what ages they should be given?

 

Hepatitis B vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at birth to 2 months

2. Second dose at 1 to 4 months

3. Third dose at 16-28 months

 

Hib vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 2 months

2. Second dose at 4 months

3. Third dose at 6 months

4. Fourth dose at 12 to 15 months

 

Polio vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 2 months

2. Second dose at 4 months

3. Third dose at 6 to 18 months

4. Fourth dose at 4 to 6 years

 

DTaP vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 2 months

2. Second dose at 4 months

3. Third dose at 6 months

4. Fourth dose at 15 to 18 months

5. Fifth dose at 4 to 6 years

6. DTaP is recommended at 11 years

 

Pneumococcal vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 2 months

2. Second dose at 4 months

3. Third dose at 6 months

4. Fourth dose at 12 to 18 months

 

Rotavirus vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 2 months

2. Second dose at 4 months

3. Third dose at 6 months

 

Hepatitis A vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 12 months

2. Second dose at 18 months

 

Influenza vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 6 months (requires a booster one month after initial vaccine)

2. Annually until 5 years (then yearly if indicated or desired, according to risks)

 

MMR vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 12 to 15 months

2. Second dose at 4 to 6 years

 

Varicella vaccine:

 

 

 

1. First dose at 12 to 15 months

2. Second dose at 4 to 6 years

 

Meningococcal vaccine:

 

 

 

1. Single dose at 11 years

 

Human papillomavirus vaccine (adolescent girls only):

 

 

 

1. First dose at 11 years

2. Second dose two months after first dose

3. Third dose six months after first dose

 

 

[LibraryLover]

That's spread out over 6 yrs, right?

Varicella is the CP one, and that's one many parents skip. So let's say 22. And lets not count flu shots, because many folks don't do those. (And I see you haven't).

 

One of my dc was adopted internationally, and had 3 hep Bs before she left her birth country. When she had her most recent checkup at age 17, I asked about that, and if she needed a 4th. My Dr told me that 3, at any point in life, is the max. So that one never has to be repeated. The MMR might need repeating later in life, but not hib or DTaP, although many recommend a Teatnus shot every 10 yrs for adults. Polio, done, PVC7, done. So, even if one adds more in adulthood, in the military etc, or even the controversial Guardasil, there are not 38 vax contributing to childhood autism. I mean, even those of us who question certain requirements and schedules are put off by numbers that are not verifiable.

 

Hep B - 3 shots

Polio - 4 shots

PCV7 - 4 shots

Hib - 4 shots

DTaP - 5 shots

MMR - 2 shots

Varicella - 1 shot

 

So that's 23 shots, plus the assorted flu vaccinations.

None of them were given around the time (not even same year) as the anaphylaxis to cashews.

 

My grandmother died because of a heart problem due to rubella, so I'm glad we have the vaccinations and my son's able to get them.

Edited February 4, 2010 by LibraryLover

[wulfbourne]

http://worldofweirdthings.com/2010/01/19/if-its-catchy-why-bother-with-the-science/

 

Too many, too soon is one of the sacred mantras of the anti-vaccination movement and its sympathizers who are looking for any remotely plausible argument which would paint vaccines as some kind of poison turning an entire generation of children autistic. Ok, so you can show that timerosal used in vaccines had nothing to do with autism and that the type of mercury it contained wasn’t a neurotoxin. You could even tackle the big issue of how autism is diagnosed and whether parental age has something to do with a rise in the number of diagnosed cases over the last decade and have sound science on your side. But you certainly can’t debate a threefold increase in vaccinations over the last thirty years. And if you can’t debate that, you certainly couldn’t say that three times as many vaccines means that kids’ immune systems aren’t being overwhelmed, right?

 

Actually, yes. You could. The number of vaccinations is actually a misnomer used to make an argument which firmly casts vaccines as either the villain in today’s pediatric problems, or at least a suspect cause. What has been missed by TV personalities promoting this fallacy, like Bill Maher and Joy Behar, is the fact that today’s vaccines are much more efficient than those given when they were kids. The initial seven vaccines of the late 1970s have been doubled in the last 30 years but their actual antigen load has been lowered from 3,000 to just about 150, only 5% of what the people making this argument were exposed to in their childhoods. For the too many too soon argument to be true, we’d need to see the same kinds of pediatric problems a generation ago and with far greater frequency than we do today. If we weren’t overwhelming immune systems back then, how could we possibly be doing it today with a twentieth of the antigens? And yet, this is the argument being made by the alt med and anti-vaccine crowd.

[LibraryLover]

So there is no way a child diagnosed with autism at age 18 mos, say, has recived anywhere near 38 vaccines.

[mommyrooch]

I don't know what kind of "scientific evidence" you are looking for, since the information I gave was basically historical/factual. How would you do a "scientific study" to prove that half the members of the committee that recommends mandatory vaccines have financial ties to Big Pharma?

 

I wasn't asking for studies to support your opinion on the CDC and govt. or Big Pharma having vested iterests in regards to vaccinations. It is quite clear to me that those statements are just your opinions.

 

You stated that these organizations are saying that vaccinations are perfectly safe "regardless of evidence." What "scientific evidence" do you have that has proven that vaccines aren't safe?

 

As far as I know there has never been a definitive link to vaccinations and diseases such as Autism. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm aware of the research done by individuals like Wakefield but I am talking about controlled studies where large numbers of children have been observed and the data reported is based on fact, not opinion, emotion or interpretation. Studies showing results that can be and have been duplicated in subsequent studies backing up and supporting such claims.

 

This is the "scientific evidence" that I would like to see.

[Niffercoo]

I wish I knew what to make of this entire debate.

 

I know a little boy who was speaking and interacting with other kids and his parents until he got the MMR and Pox vaccine at 1 year old. He was in Riley's playgroup.

 

I also have many friends on my autism loops who have experienced the same thing.

 

My two who have been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders are the only two who were exposed to the MMR before the age of two - Austin got it at his one year checkup and had a horrible reaction, and Reece got it through my milk as a newborn when I was re-vaccinated. But then Austin was a very different (i.e. difficult!) baby even before he had the MMR. I don't know how Reece might have been since she got MMR within hours of her birthday.

 

Of course, all of my children were exposed in utero to thimerosal because I had to get the Rhogam vaccination, which I got during pregnancy and after each of my miscarriages.

 

Even through all of that I did not stop vaccinations. I delayed, but did not stop. And the delaying started back before Austin was even born, when my BIL (who worked for Abbott Labs at the time) instructed me not to allow our baby to be vaccinated in the hospital. So we delayed certain vaccines, but overall the big kids were up-to-date. That is, until Reece's 5th birthday, when she got the DTaP. She had finally started communicating around the age of 3.5, but she did not speak at all for 3 days after getting that shot. She was back to the screaming, uncommunicative, out of control person she had been 2 years prior. It was terrifying, and we have not gotten shots since.

 

I really, really wish I knew what to think. My grandfather had polio as a child, and survived (obviously) but has had life-long effects from it, and now has post-polio syndrome. So I'm thankful for vaccines. It's one of the reasons we never stopped vaccinating, though we delayed. Yet, after the diagnoses of autism, and Reece's reaction after the DTaP. I truly do not know what to think.

 

I just know that I cannot do something else, something on top of what I might already have done to them, which might cause them even MORE problems than they already have to deal with. But then again, I don't want to prevent them from having protections that could potentially save their lives.

[Joanne]

I know a little boy who was speaking and interacting with other kids and his parents until he got the MMR and Pox vaccine at 1 year old. He was in Riley's playgroup.

 

I also have many friends on my autism loops who have experienced the same thing.

 

This is what I've NEVER understood about this discussion.

 

Why do people so fiercely defend all vaccines in all bodies as safe and deny even obvious, glaring vaccine damage?

 

Where does people's logic go when they assert they, their children or 20 spectrum people they know didn't get on the spectrum due to vaccines and therefore vaccines don't cause autism?

 

Why is it so hard to "see" that the behaviors/processing/symptoms associated with spectrum disorders are multi-caused and may not even "be" the same thing even though they look it?

 

Why doesn't everyone understand that certain vaccines administered in certain, pre-disposed vulnerable bodies = reaction? Why doesn't everyone get that some bodies will react differently to the complex chemical interactions of vaccines?

 

Why can't people "get" that it is possible that the increasing number of vaccines could be a co-factor in the development of adult onset auto-immune issues?

 

How can the anti-vaccine camp completely ignore that some vaccines are proven safe AND beneficial?

[JillZ]

This is what I've NEVER understood about this discussion.

 

Why do people so fiercely defend all vaccines in all bodies as safe and deny even obvious, glaring vaccine damage?

 

As for me, I don't see any obvious, glaring cases of vaccine damage. I know people may believe that vaccines cause the damage, but I don't believe that it does. I'm not willing to say that vaccines never cause damage, just that I don't think it's the case in the majority of the stories I hear.

 

Science has shown that people are inherently irrational and most people don't understand (or want to believe) the field of statistics. I think this is a huge part of the problem.

 

I'm not saying any of this to be inflammatory. I just wanted to let you know what I honestly think as part of the "people" you referred to. And I do agree with you that we still don't know everything about vaccines and it may be possible that some people react differently to different vaccines. As of now, I've seen no evidence for it.

[Haiku]

And I do agree with you that we still don't know everything about vaccines and it may be possible that some people react differently to different vaccines.

 

Absolutely they do. Read Vaccinated by Paul Offit. It is chock-full of stories about vaccines gone wrong and all the mistakes and unintended consequences that were made in the development of vaccines, starting way back at or before the time of Edward Jenner.

 

Still, I came away from that book more convinced than I have ever been of the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

 

And my first child didn't receive any vaccines until she was almost a year old because I used to be a vaccine skeptic.

 

Tara

[Joanne]

As for me, I don't see any obvious, glaring cases of vaccine damage. I know people may believe that vaccines cause the damage, but I don't believe that it does. I'm not willing to say that vaccines never cause damage, just that I don't think it's the case in the majority of the stories I hear.

 

Science has shown that people are inherently irrational and most people don't understand (or want to believe) the field of statistics. I think this is a huge part of the problem.

 

I'm not saying any of this to be inflammatory. I just wanted to let you know what I honestly think as part of the "people" you referred to. And I do agree with you that we still don't know everything about vaccines and it may be possible that some people react differently to different vaccines. As of now, I've seen no evidence for it.

 

I can't imagine invalidating and dismissing the thousands of parents who have a child clearly damaged by vaccines.

[Haiku]

I can't imagine invalidating and dismissing the thousands of parents who have a child clearly damaged by vaccines.

 

It's your use of the word "clearly" that is the issue. What is clear to you is not clear to others.

 

As others have stated, given that most kids receive vaccines in a designated time frame and the fact that this time frame coincides with when autism usually manifests, the probability that kids who would have been autistic anyway would show symptoms that emerge around the time they were given vaccines isn't surprising.

 

I believe that vaccines harm some people. I don't believe that the "epidemic" of autism is caused by them.

 

Tara

[LibraryLover]

I agree it's a complicated neurological issue. I would certainly not rule out ingredient complications or allergies. The simplest foods, even, can be deadly for some people. So who knows exactly what mixtures of events/ingredients/genetics can cause a host of variations on the human theme. I have also wondered about the issue of older adults who receive vaccines for the first time. Have there been reports of 'late onset' autism? I am thinking about people who come here from developing countries who receive vax later in life. Anyway, here's my anecdotal situation:

 

My dh's sister's

 

Edited. My relative read this and she was worried that it was TMI. If you have questions, you can email me.

 

I think autism as been with us for a very long time. It might be that is simply a part of some of us, like any other non -trauma difference. Certainly some people may be more susceptible to various environmental components/toxins, but in the end, it doesn't appear, to me, given all that I have read and experienced in the past years, that autism is new.

Edited February 6, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

oops, didnt mean to post twice

[Harriet Vane]

I can't imagine invalidating and dismissing the thousands of parents who have a child clearly damaged by vaccines.

 

:iagree:

 

I have a good friend whose child suffered a major vaccine reaction. It was a nightmare for them. The day he was vaccinated (and unfortunately I do not remember which one it was that he reacted to) he had hours of screaming and headbanging, followed by days of eerie silent staring into space. He started self-stimming and constantly zoning out.

 

This was a woman who accepted vaccines and did not oppose them. Her opposition to them was born out of her son's clear, obvious trauma. They have spent their lives since then (16 years) coping with her son's autism.

 

Everything changes when you know someone personally who has suffered from this.

 

I am not a doctor or scientist, so I do not know why he reacted the way he did. I have seen the results, I have known this child for years. Whether it was a problem inherent in the vaccine or a problem in his own system, I do not know. I believe my friend and her husband when they describe the nightmare that started an hour after vaccination, though. I have used that knowledge to carefully research and to choose to vaccinate very selectively and very slowly.

[Parrothead]

As for me, I don't see any obvious, glaring cases of vaccine damage. I know people may believe that vaccines cause the damage, but I don't believe that it does. I'm not willing to say that vaccines never cause damage, just that I don't think it's the case in the majority of the stories I hear.

 

Science has shown that people are inherently irrational and most people don't understand (or want to believe) the field of statistics. I think this is a huge part of the problem.

 

I'm not saying any of this to be inflammatory. I just wanted to let you know what I honestly think as part of the "people" you referred to. And I do agree with you that we still don't know everything about vaccines and it may be possible that some people react differently to different vaccines. As of now, I've seen no evidence for it.

I went to school with guy that contracted polio from a live vaccine. Things don't get more obvious than that.

 

I worked at a place that mandated vaccines for Hep B. My friend and I went together to get ours. He reacted badly to it. I could see it happen. he was not well for over a week.

 

There is a federal government agency that keeps track of vaccine accidents/damages. VAERS

 

So just because you've never seen evidence of vaccine damaged people doe not mean that they do not exist.

[LibraryLover]

:iagree:

I am not a doctor or scientist, so I do not know why he reacted the way he did. I have seen the results, I have known this child for years. Whether it was a problem inherent in the vaccine or a problem in his own system, I do not know. I believe my friend and her husband when they describe the nightmare that started an hour after vaccination, though. I have used that knowledge to carefully research and to choose to vaccinate very selectively and very slowly.

 

The problem here is one doesn't know what allergies or ingredients could be a problem for a particular child. Giving slowly and carefully is a rather subjective, and unproven course of action. There isn't anything 'out there' that suggest this is decreasing autism. It is a muddy area. I am not saying don't do it, and we have done some variant and delayed vax, but there is nothing proven here.

 

 

Someone I know has worked in EI and has seen a significant increase in families choosing not to vax, or who delay vax. The case load have not decreased. She has had lots of experience with kids who are on gluten free diets, cod liver oil, vitamin therapies etc., and everyone continues to be excited about possibilities, but so far, they have not seen any big breakthroughs, although sometimes the parents report the child is 'more comfortable' and sleeps better. That does speak to the allergy piece, for sure. I will tell you that because EI therapists see so much autism and other issues, they are absolutely hoping that something works, that some breakthroughs occur, however they occur. EI therapists are parents of kids with autism. too. For that matter, so are doctors and pharmacists. And midwives and homeopaths. They have the same hopes the rest of us have.

 

A lot of people too, don't want cures or snake oil promises (and there are many people preying upon these parents. Chelation makes me crazy, for one); they want acceptance and appropriate guidance for their children.

 

This is anecdotal of course, but so much autism ifo is.

Edited February 6, 2010 by LibraryLover

[happyhomemaker25]

I never thought my Dh would be on board with delayed/non vax. He grew up in a medical household. But the day he had to sign a piece of paper that said no one could be held liable if our newborn son reacted to the vaccine being given, he was a convert. He thought if vaccines were so safe for babies why the "no liability" clause?

If my kids were in public school we would probably give them more vaccines on the regular schedule. Then again I don't know. For now this is how we do it.

Our pediatrician is on board with it and even has her own modified schedule for parents who want to delay.

We are going to keep doing what's best for OUR family. If you vax and that's best for your family fine. But it's really not fair to treat parents who don't vax as ignorant. We research and make informed decisions. It's not a whim.

[Parrothead]

 

There are also many parents reporting autism in their children who were never vax'd at all, and the reason they didn't vax was fear of autism.

 

 

Please give a source if you have one. Anything I've ever seen about unvaccinated children has always said that there is no autism. Such as in communities of Amish. I just did a Google search for "autism in children never vaccinated." Every hit for at least the first three pages contains information opposing what you have stated above.

 

Please show me where you got that information. It would be interesting to read. Thanks

[Joanne]

There are also many parents reporting autism in their children who were never vax'd at all, and the reason they didn't vax was fear of autism.

 

I'm not sure what you are "getting at" with this statement. I'm also skeptical about the adjectives in light of the statistics. Most children are vaccinated, at least through infancy. I can't imagine "many" parents don't vax. I think, indeed, we see a skewed resprentation of that on this board as we have a larger number of people who hyper-read and research.

 

I'd like to know your basis on "many parents reporting autism who were never vaxed at all". The statement following puzzles me. Do you mean parets diagnose/have diagnosed autism, never vaxed and then also don't vax?

 

There are 2 kinds of vaccine decliners: neglect/passive and informed. I don't have statistics, but I doubt the neglect/passive parents of autistic children are the most proactive in getting an early autism diagnoses.

 

Also, vaccines start at birth and go on fairly intensely in the first year. At what point are these "many non vaxed" kids diagnosed?

[Joanne]

I believe that vaccines harm some people. I don't believe that the "epidemic" of autism is caused by them.

 

Tara

 

This I can agree with. I'm not sure "autism" qualifies for my understanding of epidemic. And I don't believe everything we call "autism" today is the same issue.

 

I also, with great respect to people with spectrum children, think it may be over diagnosed or misdiagnosed.

 

That said, I still think it's overwhelmingly clear that vaccines have dramatically changed the devepment of some children from normal to damaged.

[LibraryLover]

Please give a source if you have one. Anything I've ever seen about unvaccinated children has always said that there is no autism. Such as in communities of Amish. I just did a Google search for "autism in children never vaccinated." Every hit for at least the first three pages contains information opposing what you have stated above.

 

Please show me where you got that information. It would be interesting to read. Thanks

 

That is not true. It is, in fact, a cultivated lie.

 

Some people, involved in chelation and other snake oils, maintain that there is no autism in the Amish. That's false. One also sees autism in populations, even today, where all children are not routinely vaccinated. India comes to mind.

 

If you go to Mothering.com forums and ask about autism in unvax'd children, you will get more anecdotes. There is a woman there (I don't know if she still posts. My kids are older so I don't go to the Mothering boards anymore) whose first child was diagnosed with autism, and so she stopped all vaccines and did not vax her second child, who was also later diagnosed with autism. I would also suggest checking out autism groups, and you will hear a few families talking about unvax'd d kids with autism. My sister has had a couple of delayed and non vax'd kids on her case load as well.

 

Because someone selling vitamins on the Internet says there is no autism in the Amish, doesn't mean it's true. If you can find a medical study that shows this, link it.

 

I also have my own familial anecdote about genetic autism in this thread. HOWEVR I am not, at all, ruling out allergies, or potential neurological reactions to certain combinations for some children, and it's certainly true many people have had vaccine reactions of all sorts. Even the CDC lists many possible complications. Some vax are a huge risk for some people.

Edited February 5, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

I though I was pretty clear. I am getting at that while some children may indeed have nuerological issues caused or brought about by vaccines or ingredients in some vaccines, autism can , and does, occur in children who have not been vax'd.

 

I'm not sure what you are "getting at" with this statement. I'm also skeptical about the adjectives in light of the statistics. Most children are vaccinated, at least through infancy. I can't imagine "many" parents don't vax. I think, indeed, we see a skewed resprentation of that on this board as we have a larger number of people who hyper-read and research.

 

I'd like to know your basis on "many parents reporting autism who were never vaxed at all". The statement following puzzles me. Do you mean parets diagnose/have diagnosed autism, never vaxed and then also don't vax?

 

There are 2 kinds of vaccine decliners: neglect/passive and informed. I don't have statistics, but I doubt the neglect/passive parents of autistic children are the most proactive in getting an early autism diagnoses.

 

Also, vaccines start at birth and go on fairly intensely in the first year. At what point are these "many non vaxed" kids diagnosed?

Edited February 5, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Perry]

I found an interesting abstract that found that

 

"acetaminophen use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was associated with autistic disorder."

Autism. 2008 May;12(3):293-307.

Acetaminophen (paracetamol) use, measles-mumps-rubella vaccination, and autistic disorder: the results of a parent survey.

 

Schultz ST, Klonoff-Cohen HS, Wingard DL, Akshoomoff NA, Macera CA, Ji M.

University of California San Diego, USA. Stephen.schultz@med.navy.mil

Comment in:

 

 

• Autism. 2009 Jan;13(1):123-4; author reply 124-5.
  

 

The present study was performed to determine whether acetaminophen (paracetamol) use after the measles-mumps-rubella vaccination could be associated with autistic disorder. This case-control study used the results of an online parental survey conducted from 16 July 2005 to 30 January 2006, consisting of 83 children with autistic disorder and 80 control children. Acetaminophen use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was significantly associated with autistic disorder when considering children 5 years of age or less (OR 6.11, 95% CI 1.42-26.3), after limiting cases to children with regression in development (OR 3.97, 95% CI 1.11-14.3), and when considering only children who had post-vaccination sequelae (OR 8.23, 95% CI 1.56-43.3), adjusting for age, gender, mother's ethnicity, and the presence of illness concurrent with measles-mumps-rubella vaccination. Ibuprofen use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was not associated with autistic disorder. This preliminary study found that acetaminophen use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was associated with autistic disorder.

 

PMID: 18445737 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

I haven't read the study, so I have no idea if it was well designed or not. Might be carp. But those ORs (Odds ratios) are pretty high and it definitely needs further study.

 

When my kids get influenza, they have hallucinations if I give them Ibuprofen. There was an epidemic of influenza encephalopathy a few years ago in Japan, and there was some concern that it was related to use of acetaminophen. I haven't heard anything recently but will try to find out more.

 

It's an interesting possibility.

[Jen500]

I found an interesting abstract that found that

 

"acetaminophen use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was associated with autistic disorder."

I haven't read the study, so I have no idea if it was well designed or not. Might be carp. But those ORs (Odds ratios) are pretty high and it definitely needs further study.

 

 

It's an interesting possibility.

 

That's interesting, Perry. I seem to recall our ped. giving us little bottles of sample painkiller for the kids when they came in for check-ups/vaccinations. You know, in case the injection site was sore.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I have 2 children who had a bad reaction to the mmr vaccine. They are my children that needed speech therapy. They talked very late and such. My first never had an issues, my middle daughter and oldest son had the reaction and both had slow speech and fine motor skills, and my last I staggered his vaccines and I don't think we did the combo vax for mmr. I told them of the previous 2 childrens reactions.

I think some children are predisposed by genetics to have reactions from vaccines and we don't know before we give them the vax whether it will have devastating effects on their little bodies and minds. I still vaccinate and my kids did overcome their delays. I did however take vaccination much slower and no mmr combo vax for the youngest. He was still vaccinated just not with the combo one and he didn't have more than 3 inoculations at a time (against 3 diseases not 3 shots).

So I think it depends on genetics whether vaccines could be harmful giving so many at one time and doing combo vaccinations.

[Parrothead]

 

If you go to Mothering.com forums and ask about autism in unvax'd children, you will get more anecdotes.

 

But I'm not asking about anecdotal evidence. I'm wondering if anyone has a source for numbers, studies, research. I still can't find anything, and I've reworded my search several times.

 

And not necessarily the Amish. I used them as an example of vaccinated children. I could cite my own child as anecdotal evidence as one with out vaccines and does not have autism. Hence the request for good scientific studies on the subject.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Parrothead

[Perry]

That's interesting, Perry. I seem to recall our ped. giving us little bottles of sample painkiller for the kids when they came in for check-ups/vaccinations. You know, in case the injection site was sore.

There was a study recently that showed that acetaminophen after flu vaccine resulted in lower antibody titers.

 

It's probably a good idea to avoid tylenol and ibuprofen at the time of vaccines.

[Joanne]

There is a woman there (I don't know if she still posts. My kids are older so I don't go to the Mothering boards anymore) whose first child was diagnosed with autism, and so she stopped all vaccines and did not vax her second child, who was also later diagnosed with autism. I would also suggest checking out autism groups, and you will hear a few families talking about unvax'd d kids with autism. My sister has had a couple of delayed and non vax'd kids on her case load as well.

 

I understand that children who were not vaxed or did not have a vax reaction can be on the spectrum. That seems like a no-brainer and I agree that there seems to be a genetic pattern in some families.

 

However, the reality that some people are autistic without vaccines does not equal vaccines do not cause autism and it doesn't negate the children who reacted to a vaccine and became autistic.

 

It's the same logic by which I understand that smoking causes lung cancer, but not in everyone who smokes. And some people who never smoked also get lung cancer.

[Perry]

Please give a source if you have one. Anything I've ever seen about unvaccinated children has always said that there is no autism. Such as in communities of Amish. I just did a Google search for "autism in children never vaccinated." Every hit for at least the first three pages contains information opposing what you have stated above.

 

Please show me where you got that information. It would be interesting to read. Thanks

 

Here is a description of some MMR/autism studiesstudies.

 

Studies Showing That MMR Vaccine

Does Not Cause Autism

Five major studies have been performed to refute a causal association between

receipt of MMR and autism.

1. The first Taylor paper

In 1999, Brent Taylor and coworkers examined the relationship between

receipt of MMR and development of autism in an excellent,

well-controlled study.(3) Taylor examined the records of 498 children

with autism or autism-like disorder. Cases were identified by registers

from the North Thames region of England before and after the

MMR vaccine was introduced into the United Kingdom in 1988.

Taylor then examined the incidence and age at diagnosis of autism

in vaccinated and unvaccinated children. He found the following: 1)

the percentage of children vaccinated was the same in children with

autism as in other children in the North Thames region; 2) no difference

in the age of diagnosis of autism was found in vaccinated and

unvaccinated children; and 3) the onset of “regressive†symptoms

of autism did not occur within 2, 4, or 6 months of receiving the

MMR vaccine.

2. The JAMA paper

In 2001, Natalie Smith and coworkers examined the relationship between

the increase in the number of cases of autism in California and

receipt of the MMR vaccine.(4)

The percentage of children immunized with MMR vaccine between

1980 and 1994 was compared with the incidence of autism during

the same period. Although a dramatic increase in the incidence of

children with autism was reported, the percentage of children that

received MMR vaccine remained the same.

3. The British Medical Journal paper

In a study that supported the findings in the JAMA paper, Hershel

Jick and coworkers examined the incidence of autism in England between

1988 and 1993 and compared this with MMR immunization

rates.(5) Although the incidence of autism increased, MMR immunization

rates remained the same.

4. The second Taylor paper

A second study by Brent Taylor and coworkers examined the relationship

between MMR vaccine and “new variant autismâ€

(Wakefield’s claim that autism is associated with inflammation of

the small intestine).(6) Children with autism diagnosed between 1979

and 1998 were examined. The authors compared the number of

children with autism and intestinal symptoms before 1988 and after

1988 (MMR was introduced into England in 1988). There was

no difference. They concluded that there was, therefore, no evidence

for “new variant autism†and provided further evidence that MMR

vaccine was not associated with autism.

5. The Madsen paper

Perhaps the best study was that performed by Madsen and colleagues

in Demark between 1991 and 1998 and reported in the New

England Journal of Medicine.(7) The study included 537,303 children

representing 2,129,864 person-years of study. Approximately 82

percent of children had received the MMR vaccine. The group of

children was selected from the Danish Civil Registration System,

vaccination status was obtained from the Danish National Board of

Health, and children with autism were identified from the Danish Central Register. The risk of autism in the group of vaccinated children

was the same as that in unvaccinated children. Furthermore,

there was no association between the age at the time of vaccination,

the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development

of autism.