mcconnellboys Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 But you know, the human brain doesn't really get back on track insofar as maturing until the body has completed its last growth spurt. And most docs say now that brain development isn't fully complete until about age 25, so unless they've had the opportunity to really, really work and explore like this prior to the age of graduating from high school, they may really need that time as the brain finishes up its development.....???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaura Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) wow! I love this thread. I am just a newbie homeschooler and it is amazing what other worlds open up when you step out of the typical path. I have done the public school thing with my eldest for a few years and it was such a leap to step out of that rut. The day seemed so artificial and full of "busywork" compared to our day now. My kids have so much more time. Time to just exist and explore and determine who they are and what they want to do. Our family has really had to learn and to stretch itself to figure out how to be together all day every day. To deal with both the good and bad of all the craziness that is another human being. We are loving it! And that is ultimately what I want for my son--happiness, contentment, the ability to sleep well at night with a sense of personal satisfaction and knowing that the right thing was done for others.Jane It is funny that when we left the school environment I never really thought about the above. What do I want for my kids. Now, this decision we made for a variety of reasons (mostly academic), has enabled me to really think about what I want for my kids and go about trying to provide it. What a lovely sentiment is expressed in the above quote. Beautiful... IWait, wait, wait... Are you a stay at home mother? I am. I knew in college that I wanted to be one, too. Once I mentioned to my Greek prof that I thought I was probably going to waste my college education staying home. He told me gently but very firmly that I had a right to educate my mind, that that was never a waste. In retrospect, I am glad I confided my worry to a classics prof and not one of my software engineering profs GRIN. I am a stay at home mom with a degree in biomedical engineering that I never used. I became pregnant with number one in grad school and after he was born I never looked back. Sometimes I feel like maybe I wasted my education but you know what? I guess I didn't. I do have a right to educate my mind and I also have the right to give my kids the same opportunity. My graduate advisor in electrical engineering was less than pleased with my decision to leave so I think you made the right decision in who to confide in. I think for my children to be happy, they need to be able to do multiple things. We could leave them to discover and learn the basics of those things themselves, but we know from watching our friends how hard that can be. Take sailing ... I really believe this. My dh has been a great influence in this department. He grew up on a farm and helped his family build their house, repair farm equipment, and cared for cows, goats, and chickens as well. Having all those experiences really gives a person a sense of confidence in themselves that I think will enable them to meet any challenge they are presented with. Well, I hope so... Actually, I think there may be hope. Magazines like Make and Craft are doing really well because of a new generation of DIYers (Do-It-Yourself-ers). The Urban Homesteaders of today may be a passing fad--but maybe not. My eldest son and I really love MAKE magazine. I highly recommend it to any DIYers or wannabe DIYers. I think we have moved beyond even basic homemaking and carpentry skills. I think there is a complete detachment in aiding children mature into independent self-sufficient adults that won't be disposable consumers, restaurant dependent, etc. I think that the Popular Mechanics approach to pre-teen and teenage boys is not only fun, but self-esteem building. There is inherent internal reward in creating. The same goes for sewing, cooking, knitting, etc.....whatever the task. Replacing all of those with video game successes is not the same. :iagree::iagree: I think that self-esteem that comes from real abilities and real accomplishments will trump any other "curriculum" that will try to provide it. Back in engineering school there were a plethora of kids who could do the math. There were, unfortunately, significantly fewer who had ever built anything in real life. How can you design for manufacture if you have no experience with what the guys in the machine shop need in terms of plans. We need to give kids the opportunity to go out and create and fail and try again. I want my kids to be able to go out to the shop and mess around and create things while they are young and unencumbered by mortgages etc. THanks for such a thoughtful threat, ladies. And thanks for letting newbie join in the conversation. Laura (typing fast before the baby wakes up...forgive the typos) Edited February 17, 2010 by Flaura typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Yes, plants! My parents walk through the woods and name every plant and tell stories about its usage and things others have told them about it, etc. I don't know a fraction of what they have told me and yet once when I walked through the woods with some kids and tried to just make conversation, the mothers were all freaking out that I knew what the plants were, LOL! I think you've struck on something that I was trying to express. It's one thing to know a piece of knowledge in one's head, but I think that different sorts of neurons are firing when one links doing something meaningful with the knowing. And somehow, I think that perhaps in a time gone by, part of what helped our forefathers be so seemingly intelligent without a ton of formal education was the fact that learning was more normally always linked to doing. They weren't just talking heads. They weren't just learning in a vacuum.... Thank you. I didn't even realize it until recently, but I know the names of hundreds of plants. I think that knowing the names of what is around us is a way of being able to see it. Before I could name plants, I couldn't differentiate between them. I hear, too, what Nan is saying, that in the past there was a broader uneducated population that is probably not factored into Gatto's scenario. But, I suspect that uneducated people had a broader knowledge of "stuff" than uneducated people do now, just as a matter of survival. My son is anxious to complete his homework, so I will have to pick up this thread later (and hope I've made sense). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 different sorts of neurons are firing when one links doing something meaningful with the knowing. And somehow, I think that perhaps in a time gone by, part of what helped our forefathers be so seemingly intelligent without a ton of formal education was the fact that learning was more normally always linked to doing. They weren't just talking heads. They weren't just learning in a vacuum.... Which brings me to a question that keeps going in my head. Why make sure the high schooler learns all that info. in the history or the science book (those are just examples of content material)? It's one thing, if the high schooler is intensely interested in the subject and finds ways to connect it to doing things, but what about if they are not, and they have had rounds of this particular science or branch of history in younger years? Why not make it a basic reading/writing/timelining or experimenting course and let him absorb what he can, while practicing his reading/writing/experimenting (in the case of science)/research skills on *parts* of the book he finds interesting? I get that there are university requirements and basic knowledge is a good thing. But everything in those big textbooks without a "doing" part in real life - I don't understand when I read about people having their kids master the info. in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Yes, plants! My parents walk through the woods and name every plant and tell stories about its usage and things others have told them about it, etc. I don't know a fraction of what they have told me and yet once when I walked through the woods with some kids and tried to just make conversation, the mothers were all freaking out that I knew what the plants were, LOL! I think you've struck on something that I was trying to express. It's one thing to know a piece of knowledge in one's head, but I think that different sorts of neurons are firing when one links doing something meaningful with the knowing. And somehow, I think that perhaps in a time gone by, part of what helped our forefathers be so seemingly intelligent without a ton of formal education was the fact that learning was more normally always linked to doing. They weren't just talking heads. They weren't just learning in a vacuum.... Thank you. But they also took the time to watch nature! I think that many of the old timers could tell the month by which adult insects were present and which birds were fledging. By not encouraging our children to watch the Japanese beetles in the garden or taste the honeysuckle, we are denying them their bearings with their environment. Of course, having strawberries in the grocery practically year round does not help either. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 His research seemed pretty impressive to me. The book is an absolute tomb with a TON of citations. It's more like a dissertation. Most people were self-educated and he just makes the case for how very impressive their knowledge base really was. I can't remember specifics, but if you read it, you'd say, "yeah, I can see that this was true". That included people from all walks of life. More slaves could read than most folks knew about (look into all those who helped with the founding of Liberia - most of them were very intelligent and many were very successful, too). As for the Native Americans, their plant knowledge was prodigious. Gatto gives some interesting army statistics about how many soldiers enlisting in WWI were considered literate (and he gives the parameters of what they considered literate), then he juxtaposes that against the later wars and by the time you get to the more modern wars, the effective literacy rate had not only dropped dramatically, but the army had to change the parameters and lower the standard of what they considered a passing score. And this wasn't because of more minorities, either. That was accounted for in the studies he cited. I just don't think that our forced public educational system of today is about getting everyone educated. I think it's about maintaining the status quo for a hugely beaurecratic organization that's been dysfunctional almost since its inception. Wow, I sound like Gatto there, LOL. I don't mean to sound so radical, but I just don't think the system was really set up with the intent of serving the educational needs of the populace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Jane and Colleen, I think that the whole project/hands on idea is what I've always loved about the Montessori method of education. My younger son got the chance to attend a Montessori pre-school and kindergarten. I loved everything they did with those kids. The learning was impressive and seemed effortless. I think that's another reason I tend to think the brain needs "doing" to help make meaningful neural connections during learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I'm not sure if I can add anything meaningful to this conversation (not that that's ever stopped me), but I wanted to share my experience on the flip side. I was a liberal arts major who was very concerned w/finding a job w/meaning and that made me happy. Somehow that got twisted into a 'failure to launch' syndrome as I had no practical skills, nor any sense of direction. I went to grad school b/c someone was paying (I was a TA) and spent way too many years bumming around and traveling. I did cure my wanderlust and eventually went to law school and got a good job. But by that time my biological clock was shrieking and I ended up staying home w/my kids. Now I wonder about retirement and worry about all those 'lost years.' My social security statement is a joke and I pray my dh continues to be successful. I wonder if I had studied a more practical field and worked straight from college--say a teacher, I could almost be retired now. Maybe it's just a grass is greener syndrome. Although I do have some great memories, but they're disappearing on a daily basis.:glare: I was one of those kids who never had chores b/c my mom felt kids should be kids. My kids have chores, but I struggle w/giving them life skills b/c a) I don't have many myself--can't cook, clean or sew, nor do I want to, and b) for many of these life skills it's hard to learn from a book. We're losing the generations that know this stuff backwards and forwards (although I did read recently that this was a hot topic in publishing--grandmas teaching the younger generation practical skills), but it's still hard to learn form a book. It's hard to take a nature book and look at the pictures and say yes that is an elm tree (at least it's hard for me). Or, oh that's how you change the oil. Geesh, I can't even wrap my mind around all the academic stuff I need to teach my kids, let alone all these practical skills I really want to have them learn. Like the pp said too bad UPS can't deliver this one for me. I have learned so much by reading all of this and will be eternally in your debt for this thread as it has really sparked a new interest for me--how to find the resources to teach my kids 'old time' life skills. They will be well-covered on the tech stuff (dh's skill set--I'm pretty useless all around). It's past my bed time, but I know my mind will be spinning.... Thanks, Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I think that's part of why I like the idea of the slow food movement so much, Jane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Which brings me to a question that keeps going in my head. Why make sure the high schooler learns all that info. in the history or the science book (those are just examples of content material)? It's one thing, if the high schooler is intensely interested in the subject and finds ways to connect it to doing things, but what about if they are not, and they have had rounds of this particular science or branch of history in younger years? Why not make it a basic reading/writing/timelining or experimenting course and let him absorb what he can, while practicing his reading/writing/experimenting (in the case of science)/research skills on *parts* of the book he finds interesting? I get that there are university requirements and basic knowledge is a good thing. But everything in those big textbooks without a "doing" part in real life - I don't understand when I read about people having their kids master the info. in them. Colleen, I think that most of us agree that knowing facts is one thing, knowing how to research and make connections is something that may be ultimately more important. Through the years, I too have contemplated your question and argued within myself, particularly as we entered high school and I saw the importance that the system places on multiple choice tests where knowledge is reduced to a bubble sheet or a canned essay format. One thing that I perpetually remind myself is that there is often a huge difference between what an educator thinks should be taught and what an expert in a particular field thinks should be learned. I am working to prepare my son for the AP Calculus test and I can tell you that math educators have written these tests. Mathematicians would produce something completely different. Frankly, I am appalled by the entire business and ask myself why I am subjecting my son to it. The answer is so that he can cross math off a list of future course requirements. Math is not his favorite subject (now how did that happen??) so he agrees that if this can be scratched off the list now, there will be less hassle in the long run. I still have my doubts about this entire business. A kid who dislikes math (healthy rebellion against his mathematical parents?) will probably dislike math even more because of the ridiculous nature of this test. Someone shoot me now... Jane and Colleen, I think that the whole project/hands on idea is what I've always loved about the Montessori method of education. My younger son got the chance to attend a Montessori pre-school and kindergarten. I loved everything they did with those kids. The learning was impressive and seemed effortless. I think that's another reason I tend to think the brain needs "doing" to help make meaningful neural connections during learning. I didn't even realize it until recently, but I know the names of hundreds of plants. I think that knowing the names of what is around us is a way of being able to see it. Before I could name plants, I couldn't differentiate between them. My son was educated in a Montessori school from age 3 through 6th grade so obviously it is a methodology that not only we bought into but one that suited his personality. In retrospect, I should have known that he was a Montessori kid as a toddler--and this is where I am tying together Regena's and Nicole's posts. We live at the beach so my son gathered sea shells before he could walk. As a toddler, he learned their names: ladyslipper, oyster drill, coquina. We realized that his young eyes did not just see the broad category of "shells" but distinguished between each kind of shell. My son's Montessori school did a good job of teaching children nomenclature. Why not teach young children the proper vocabulary of the natural world from the beginning? Now this does require that parents and teachers have knowledge of the names of trees, birds and insects, but something as simple and inexpensive as those little Golden Guides can teach both parent and child these things. wow! I love this thread. I am just a newbie homeschooler and it is amazing what other worlds open up when you step out of the typical path. Laura (typing fast before the baby wakes up...forgive the typos) Laura, let me take this opportunity to say Welcome Aboard! My homeschool career is coming to an end and I am positively envious of those just beginning. Sigh... I think that's part of why I like the idea of the slow food movement so much, Jane! The movement appeals to me because I desire to live more deliberately. With my only child leaving for college in August, I am preparing for the Next Phase whatever that may be. Sustainability enters the equation. Not just "sustainability" as a trite "green" term, but some sort of personal sustainability to live a high quality life, contribute to my community, and take on all of those projects that were pushed to the back burner during these years of intensive child raising. This thread has been magnificent. Now, if we could bring a discussion of Latin into it, I think we will have everything covered! Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I wonder how old that saying about sowing one's wild oats is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I know this thread has been an inspiration to me. I'd say it's most definitely one of those worth printing off every single page to keep and read through again and again, marking up and adding my own notes. I truly treasure having this place as a melting pot of ideas from so many who have been there or are traveling this road. I can't think of any other place that I could get this same discourse as we have here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 "But, I suspect that uneducated people had a broader knowledge of "stuff" than uneducated people do now, just as a matter of survival." I can't decide whether I agree with you or not. Is some of it just a country mouse/city mouse problem? How old is that story? I am raising country mice. They certainly can tell poison ivy from goldenrod and an oak tree from a pine tree, and so can their friends. Not all their friends, though, can tell you the name of the golden rod. They just know that it is golden rod. Whether they can or not has to do with whether they remember the 5th grade science teacher (who made it a point to teach basic plants, animals, trees, and constellations), and whether their parents were country mice. If they are being raised by city mice, they usually don't know the names of things unless their best friend did, or they were particularly interested. My mother knew all the names, so I do, too. The plants all look different to my children, and they can name the most common, but they can't name every weed in the yard the way I can. I couldn't at their age, either. I learned to do that by taking walks with my mother when I was grownup. She automatically points out all the things she thinks I might not know. I think part of the problem of young people not knowing much now - if that is the case - I'm still undecided about that - it might just be that we've replaced one kind of knowledge with another, like how to use a computer and drive a car and use a cell phone - many old people are painfully aware that they don't know how to do things their 10 year old grandchild takes for granted ... but anyway, part of the problem might be that people move away from their parents younger now. I learned child care directly from my mother, but most of my friends learned from books or nurses or La Leche League or from each other. Or trial and error. And child care was much easier for me beause I had one consistent method that I was following, not a whole lot of conflicting directions. I altered the formula a few significant places, but in general, I didn't have to think much about the whole thing. The alterations (like homeschooling) are causing me to think extremely muchly. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 importance that the system places on multiple choice tests where knowledge is reduced to a bubble sheet or a canned essay format. there is often a huge difference between what an educator thinks should be taught and what an expert in a particular field thinks should be learned. The answer is so that he can cross math off a list of future course requirements. Math is not his favorite subject (now how did that happen??) so he agrees that if this can be scratched off the list now, there will be less hassle in the long run. So, depending on some goals that may be there for after high school, you really do have to "teach to the test" for some things, if you want to get later requirements overwith. I'm not liking this. :D And this is where you say, "check the school's requirements - they are all individual." I'd say it's most definitely one of those worth printing off every single page to keep and read through again and again, marking up and adding my own notes. Do you know about the board feature, where you can subscribe to a thread, AND create your own files in which to save threads? As far as I can tell, you can keep as many as you want, forever. You can create different file names - I have some called: math, Latin, logic, logic stage writing, Spanish, general encouragement, and quite a few others. So, even though you might unsubscribe to threads you no longer need, you can subcategorize other ones that you want to keep forever. (you could also add your own notes here and let us read them! :D) It also keeps your subscribed threads folder cleaned out. Of course, printing off and marking them may be more efficient for you, but I thought I'd mention the files, because it saves me paper and ink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Do you know about the board feature, where you can subscribe to a thread, AND create your own files in which to save threads? As far as I can tell, you can keep as many as you want, forever. You can create different file names - I have some called: math, Latin, logic, logic stage writing, Spanish, general encouragement, and quite a few others. So, even though you might unsubscribe to threads you no longer need, you can subcategorize other ones that you want to keep forever. (you could also add your own notes here and let us read them! :D) It also keeps your subscribed threads folder cleaned out. Of course, printing off and marking them may be more efficient for you, but I thought I'd mention the files, because it saves me paper and ink. No, I had no idea. I'm going to have to wrap my brain around that one though, as it sounds very interesting. Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Colleen, I did not know that we could subscribe to threads--thank you! I feel like I am sandwiched between the old school folks who can identify goldenrods and the new school folks who can write code. Hopefully, I can give my kids enough from each school to not only succeed, but craft meaningful lives for themselves. I think I was way too self-centered for either. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 No, I had no idea. I'm going to have to wrap my brain around that one though, as it sounds very interesting. Thanks for sharing! Colleen, I did not know that we could subscribe to threads--thank you! Yes, you can just plain old subscribe, by clicking on thread tools above the thread. You can check for new replies to your subscriptions by clicking on your control panel. You also can sort your subscribed threads into folders by clicking on your control panel, and then clicking edit folders. Voila, a place to create and name folders and put subscribed threads into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Colleen, I'm reading Blink right now. It is about another way of thinking. I'm not really learning anything new because it describes a thinking method that I use quite a lot, but I am enjoying seeing all the bits and pieces in one place and enjoying having value put on it. And about the questions? My parents took for granted that one would consider those things when chosing a major or career. (Two more to think about: outdoor work or indoor work? physical or mental? animal people should work with animals, or if they are extra sensitive, may perhaps choose not to work with animals because it will haunt them.) I think that might have been a luxury that you missed out on because your family was in survival mode. When you are in survival mode, lots of things like job satisfaction are completely beside the point. Your high school guidance councilor should have been making sure all the students thought about these things, but if they were like mine, they were pretty useless. Colleges often have counciling staff who will help you figure these things out. There are books, too, like What Colour is Your Parachute (colour is probably spelled the other way) that help. There is a parachute one for teens that you might like especially to look at. The original book is meant for adults wanting or needing to switch careers or get back into the work force. I also want to tell you that you don't need to worry too much about cramming in all the skills now. It works just like a classical education: teach basic skills and they can continue to teach themselves whatever else they need the rest of their lives. My father, when the phone rings at 4 or 5 o'clock and it is my sisters or I, still asks, "Cooking question?" My mother is still showing me sewing tips, drawing tips, still teaching me my plants and birds. As long as you don't botch your relationship, there will be time after the teens. About the content cramming - I try to avoid meaninless content, but at the same time, I know that I want my children to have enough knowledge of science to be able to read a Science News article, or to be able to judge whether the latest rumour has merit. I want them to know enough history that they don't idealize the past or the present and can see when we are making the same mistakes. I want them to know enough anthropology and geography and psychology to be able to recognize cultural bias, have some understanding of the balances built into other political systems, and know that when a foreign house guest keeps turning the heat up to 90 degrees and roasting everyone, it is probably because he can't read farenheit. Stuff like that. Some of it is basic how-does-this-work knowledge that you can use, like tide information. Some of it is fear-driven. I will never forget the post from somebody here that said that they hadn't done much science and now her daughter was going t college hoping to become a vet and really, really struggling because she had double the amount to learn because she had to start at the very beginning. Or the several posts I've read saying that unschooling friends' children were mad at them for not teaching them math. My oldest went to college three years "late" and one of his friends, also older, pointed out that they were going to be old when they graduated and have to have their children all in a row if they ever wanted to retire. Ok, it was a funny conversation and his view might have been bit off, but that is beside the point. It is how they feel that counts. In a way, you have the rest of your life to learn things, but in a way, you don't. And practically speaking, I have a captive audience at the moment GRIN. I'm not at all sure that my youngest, for instance, will ever go back and investigate the Holocaust, or that my older one will wonder about the electromagnetic spectrum. On the other hand, I am avoiding AP classes and I chose not to investigate IB programs for my youngest because I have the same doubts that Jane does about that quantity of content. I waffle. Sometimes I envy the Europeans, with their content-heavy basic education, and sometimes I remember my mother's complaints about her own content-heavy education and how she thought my content-light, much less dry education was better. She went to the local Latin high school. I used the word Latin - happy Jane - and here is a new bunny trail - what do we think about the idea that you can't know which foreign language your child will need when he grows up, so it is a good idea to teach Latin because that will make it easier to learn other common Western foreign languages? Or my own discovery that it is much easier to skip teaching English grammar and just teach the much more regular Latin grammar and let the grammar benefits automatically spill over into English? -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 "But, I suspect that uneducated people had a broader knowledge of "stuff" than uneducated people do now, just as a matter of survival." I can't decide whether I agree with you or not. Is some of it just a country mouse/city mouse problem? How old is that story? I am raising country mice. They certainly can tell poison ivy from goldenrod and an oak tree from a pine tree, and so can their friends. Not all their friends, though, can tell you the name of the golden rod. They just know that it is golden rod. Whether they can or not has to do with whether they remember the 5th grade science teacher (who made it a point to teach basic plants, animals, trees, and constellations), and whether their parents were country mice. If they are being raised by city mice, they usually don't know the names of things unless their best friend did, or they were particularly interested. My mother knew all the names, so I do, too. The plants all look different to my children, and they can name the most common, but they can't name every weed in the yard the way I can. I couldn't at their age, either. I learned to do that by taking walks with my mother when I was grownup. She automatically points out all the things she thinks I might not know. I think part of the problem of young people not knowing much now - if that is the case - I'm still undecided about that - it might just be that we've replaced one kind of knowledge with another, like how to use a computer and drive a car and use a cell phone - many old people are painfully aware that they don't know how to do things their 10 year old grandchild takes for granted ... but anyway, part of the problem might be that people move away from their parents younger now. -Nan I don't know either, whether we know different things, or less or what. I was thinking out loud, based on some of what I have read. I would argue that a lot of what kids do know, and this is based on working with college students, is of less real value. Sure, they have knowledge about technical gadgets, but when the power goes out or that battery runs down, what then? A geology prof I know described a field trip, where he encouraged students to turn off their electronic media and to simply sit for thirty minutes and observe what was around them, (out in the middle of nowhere). They couldn't do it. Perhaps it's unfair to say, based on this story, that all kids are hooked in, but I think it is increasingly common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in SEVA Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim in SouthGa Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 This thread is great!! I have decided to take baby steps..starting this Saturday, I am going to teach the two oldest to clean bathrooms. I'll show them how, let them do it, then supervise every Saturday until I know they are doing it safely and properly. The 9 year old is going to learn to vacum with the same system. Part of the reason I have not already taught them this stuff is because I didn't think I had time to make sure they were doing it right. I think breaking it down this way will work. So, we have three bathrooms-one upstairs for the boys, one in the downstairs hall for my oldest daughter and guests, and one in the master bedroom that my dh, me, and the toddler use. Do you all make your kids clean your bathroom, or do you do it? I was thinking I would have them clean the other two and I would be responsible for mine. same with vacuming and dusting. How do you all do it? the hard part is going to be keeping myself from going overboard...I'm already thinking of all I need to do, but reality is what it is and I don't have a lot of time! Baby steps, baby steps... I would love to hear the life skills/hands-on stuff you all are teaching. I'm thinking of the following: *budgeting-help me plan meals and such for a week *basic housework *how to sew up a small tear or replace a button *how to hunt and fish (for the boys, they do this some with Dad anyway...will be great for when that EMP finally hits ;)) *how to cook-this seems huge to me and we may wait to have a summer course on cooking. The big kids can make muffins and quessadillas, but that is about it. *same with gardening. My dd really want to do this, but we don't have a good place for it. Maybe some strawberries and tomatoes in pots? What else? Any ideas for small, easy projects to get us started? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Kim, I have a chore list for my kids on a chart. We've tried so many different ways, but the biggest hurdle is ds11's work ethic. He does the job, but doesn't do it well. He's rotated from being in charge of the dishwasher, the laundry, the basement, or the kids' bathroom. dd10 does such a better job that it's hard what to assign ds and not reward him for his lack of quality on the job. I've decided that all three are responsible for all the chores--they have to work together to unload/load the dishwasher, do the laundry, and clean the basement/bathroom. They are also responsible for all of their stuff. So if their books/toys are lying around they have to pick them up. They work together to cook one night/week--mostly microwave stuff or spaghetti. We're starting meal planning/grocery coordination this week. As for the outdoor stuff, neither dh nor I are much help to the kids. Dh loathes fishing, camping etc and while I'm not thrilled about them, I don't want to do them by myself with the kids. I might be able to get my brothers to help, but they live about an hour away and it's not always convenient. As for Latin, for some reason I think it will help ds w/algebra. I am just beginning to learn it, although ds is starting Henle this week after two years of LC. But, it reminds me of how I need to quiet my brain (and the house) as when I'm trying to relearn higher math. It makes me focus like no other subject, so I'm sure there is some carryover to practically everything else. And I can see how my French helps w/my Latin, so I'm sure the reverse impact is substantial. Same w/derivatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) There are books, too, like What Colour is Your Parachute (colour is probably spelled the other way) that help. There is a parachute one for teens that you might like especially to look at. The original book is meant for adults wanting or needing to switch careers or get back into the work force. I have read these books since high school, as well as some other career ones (I like books by Paul and Sarah Edwards, too). I guess my mind sometimes just still defaults into the survival rut. We've had plenty of survival modes during marriage, too, so...my mind goes there. But I like your questions and I'm going to take my own advice and file this subscription into one of my folders here. The questions and concerns here mean more to me, too, than questions in books, because I have somewhat followed posters' personal journeys. One thing is for sure - this process of educating my mind has opened my eyes a whole lot more to life than just survival. There is thriving, too, which I'm starting to believe more and more is what God wants for people (me). My father, when the phone rings at 4 or 5 o'clock and it is my sisters or I, still asks, "Cooking question?" My mother is still showing me sewing tips, drawing tips, still teaching me my plants and birds. As long as you don't botch your relationship, there will be time after the teens. You're right. When my mother told me sometime during my adulthood that she wished she could have taught me more sewing skills, I told her that at least she got me started. And what has happened since my leaving home? Every time we visit with each other, we share the latest craft project. And she has shown me twice in the past 10 years how to knit, and it finally "clicked" the second time. We just continually pass practical information/how tos back and forth to each other. She sent me a picture recently of a quilt she made from crazy-quilting, because I had told her about crazy-quilting. About the content cramming - I try to avoid meaninless content, but at the same time, I know that I want my children to have enough knowledge of science to be able to read a Science News article, or to be able to judge whether the latest rumour has merit. I want them to know enough history that they don't idealize the past or the present and can see when we are making the same mistakes. I want them to know enough anthropology and geography and psychology to be able to recognize cultural bias, have some understanding of the balances built into other political systems, How do you decide how much is enough? I guess the idea I have in my head is teach them thinking skills, feed them books, provide lots of reading time, and have them put their thoughts on paper and talk, and hope it's enough. I guess when I think of content cramming, I'm thinking of a 2 or 3 inch thick history or science book, which must be read through and most everything mastered as knowledge. Probably goes back to my very boring history classes in high school. Some of it is fear-driven. I will never forget the post from somebody here that said that they hadn't done much science and now her daughter was going t college hoping to become a vet and really, really struggling because she had double the amount to learn because she had to start at the very beginning. Yes, this makes sense to me. This is one reason why I did start content things in the early grades. And now my daughter is currently in the "absorbing info. like a sponge" stage, because her reading has taken off in the past year or so. what do we think about the idea that you can't know which foreign language your child will need when he grows up, so it is a good idea to teach Latin because that will make it easier to learn other common Western foreign languages? So far, I think it's a pretty good idea. :D I live in an officially bilingual nation and my kids may want to learn the other language sometime, so I think Latin's structure and words will be useful. Now - if they want to learn Mandarin or Arabic or Russian....hmm....I chalk it up to, "at least they will have had the experience and discipline of learning a foreign language - they will know something of the work that goes into the learning." Those are my simplistic thoughts. :D:bigear: I would love to hear the life skills/hands-on stuff you all are teaching. I'm thinking of the following: *budgeting-help me plan meals and such for a week *basic housework *how to sew up a small tear or replace a button *how to hunt and fish (for the boys, they do this some with Dad anyway...will be great for when that EMP finally hits ;)) *how to cook-this seems huge to me and we may wait to have a summer course on cooking. The big kids can make muffins and quessadillas, but that is about it. *same with gardening. My dd really want to do this, but we don't have a good place for it. Maybe some strawberries and tomatoes in pots? What else? Any ideas for small, easy projects to get us started? First things that come to my mind are the daily/weekly necessities, like cooking, laundry, food shopping, clothes shopping/repair/creation, managing resources (money, food storage, tools, etc.). Necessities are different for different people. Clothes creation isn't a necessity here, because we have great thrift store sales that are cheaper than me making things. Gardening isn't a necessity here - I can get decent food around here at pretty good prices, that make it alright for me to skip the labour-intensity of gardening. Although, I would *like* to start gardening again, and my dd wants to, too. Budgeting, scratch cooking/baking, and clothing repairs are necessities here - low income, allergies, etc., so I plan to focus on those for now. And housework - I've lowered my standards over the years, but things related to hygiene (toilets, sinks, kitchen work areas) and to allergies (bedding, vacuuming, dusting) I focus on. My kids don't clean the bathroom yet - I just can't stand the idea of taking them through how to do it to my standard. It's not hard to learn though, and they can pick it up later. We only have one bathroom, too.:D They do help with table-setting and meal prep (I just get them to do things alongside me, that I think they can do that will help me get the meal on the table that much faster - "put the hotpads on the table" "stir the juice or milk (powdered milk here)" "pour the milk" "put this dish on the table - careful, use the potholders" etc.. They also hear me talk about what I think makes up a healthy meal. So I'm hoping as they learn to make meals themselves later, they will think about "one protein serving, a grain serving or two, a couple of vegetable servings and a dairy serving." I try to steer away from thinking that "casserole" makes a meal - I want them see the parts of the meal. It helps us to make the most of what we have bought on sale. Oh, there is another skill - frugal buying. Very important here. Learning unit pricing and what is healthy to eat. So, what are the cheapest forms of protein around our area? Cheapest forms of dairy? Cheapest forms of veggies, fruits? Grains? I talk about this stuff all the time with them. Amy Dacyzyn's The Complete Tightwad Gazette is full of practical life skill ideas, frugally done. Edited February 17, 2010 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyGrace Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) I will tell you my secret for what has been the GREATEST help for me for teaching life skills, home stuff, outdoor stuff in a systematic manner-see the link below-there is one handbook for girls and one for boys. It is kind of like Girl/Boy Scouts but you can use it JUST for your own family (or do it in a group, but only if you want), and set up what skills of the ones listed you want your dc to acquire and how much they need to do to get their badge or pin. It has all the skills listed and how to do them too, and a checklist for the child to show that he/she completed the skills. It is very inexpensive and lasts for years (it is listed for grades K-12). Dd10 is very motivated to complete the skills needed to learn how to do laundry, plan meals, do a service project or learn how to shoot bow and arrows because she can earn a (inexpensive but well made) pin/badge! And it keeps me on track because it gives me an outline to follow. I can't tell you how much this has helped us! (It is Christian, but you could use the skills parts-which is the bulk of it- in a secular manner, if desired): http://www.keepersofthefaith.com/category/KeepersClubs Edited February 17, 2010 by HappyGrace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 That reminds me--I think that's why the Dangerous Book for Boys franchise hit a nerve. My ds devoured it. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 I was prompted to start this thread because my youngest is in 6th grade and this year was a pivotal one for my older children. Middle school seems to be the time where "bright" is no longer sufficient and kids need genuine study skills...and so much more as the evolution of this thread has pointed out. On "teaching to the test" or answering test questions: I have seen him answer whole problem sets with answers which would be marked wrong even though the information he gave wasn't really wrong. I absolutely hate that I have to teach him to "just answer the question" and to "just repeat back what they just told you even though that seems stupid". I'm taking a real learner and dumbing him down. Ug. I don't know how else to make it so he will survive in college, though, or be able to take the standardized tests to get in. I hate the whole system.-Nan Nan, now that I understand that you are talking about an older child, all I can offer you is a different perspective. I am confident that my youngest will master answering the questions not because I teach to the test but because of the way his mind works. He is able to narrow his focus. However, his older sister is very much like yours and Regena's sons. She will take a question, dump it on it's head, spin it around a couple times and come up with numerous scenarios to validate each of the answers. "Overthinking" the question would be an understatement. We have worked on this and worked on this. While she has improved her test taking skills, I don't know that she will ever be able to "just answer the question." Her mind has always ranged over the broader picture and probably always will. While this trait makes it more difficult to test accurately, it is a definite advantage in her personal relationships. She is slower to judge than most and is able to sort through the multiple facets of a situation and see other viewpoints. Which skill will be more useful in helping her craft a happy and rewarding life? I am holding on to this slightly Pollyannish thought. Also, I can barely read your comments that I have bolded without seeing red. After 12 years of volunteering and observing in one or more of my kids' public and private school classrooms, the thought of the opportunities lost to active young minds because of the teaching to the test process is both infuriating and depressing. I remember my father telling me over and over to play stupid on tests. He said that all the answers would probably seem wrong, but to give the answers that someone stupid would give and it would probably be marked right. ...<snipped> The whole things sounds like a good way to teach people never to attempt anything they might not be instantly good at. People complain all the time about students not learning to be persistant or to take risks. How can they, when they have to worry about grades?-Nan I think this idea may be the one way my daughter hasn't approached a question on a standardized test.:D It's worth a try. Risk-taking in the learning process is huge. The inability to take risks limits the ability to truly grow and learn. Risk-taking isn't just for the student but the teacher as well. As a teacher, I can't imagine how hard teaching would be without being able to take risks and to make some mistakes. What if you always had to play it safe in choosing curricula or sequencing? Where's the joy, the adrenaline rush, and the sleepless nights? Some of the secular curriculum that I have looked at recently (used in public school system) is so scripted, there is no risk of any outside thought or approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I tried to catch some things when they were little enough that they were eager to help. They helped me cut up vegetables when they were three, for instance, when using a knife was a huge big deal. I showed them how to vacuum when it was still fun to suck things up, and to dishes when it was still fun to play in the bubbles. The same with chopping kindling with the hatchet - a chore at 15 but great fun at 10. Other things I waited on until they were just about to leave and really felt the pressure of needing to know how to do it for themselves, like keeping a checkbook before leaving for college, or washing their socks in the shower before they went peacewalking. Some things, like learning to drive, we tried to do early enough that they could be done under close supervision for a longish time before the child was gone. All three of those strategies ensured that the child was a willing participant who listened carefully and was eager to practice. For things like doing the laundry and cooking, I tried to find ways to make it fun. I let them build a campfire in the yard and cook over it. Their cooking skills are rather rudimentary, but that was enough that my oldest could feed himself when he moved out (with some phone calls to me). I let them bake brownies and make candy. I took them to the laundromat to learn to do their laundry (letting them pretend they were on their own). I let them feed us supper from beginning with choosing what to cook and buying the materials and ending with the dishes. That is much more fun than just doing a piece of the job. Some years they had regular chores, but most years they just helped when we asked them. I usually tried to give them jobs that they could do on their own while I was out, issuing verbal instructions beforehand or writing them out if needed. With me gone, there is no arguing, I don't have to watch them procrastinating, and it is more fun for them to figure it out than to do it with me standing over them. We have a smallish family and a tiny house and aren't very interested in housekeeping, so this worked very well for us. I can ask my sons to do the dishes or run the vacuum around or put in a load of laundry. They can take care of themselves away from home in a rudimentary boy-type way. The one place I worry about is that they never have had to deal with the dailiness of chores. I learned that as an adult, though, so I'm not too worried about it. Just another way to look at it, Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 ...it is a definite advantage in her personal relationships. She is slower to judge than most and is able to sort through the multiple facets of a situation and see other viewpoints. Which skill will be more useful in helping her craft a happy and rewarding life? I am holding on to this slightly Pollyannish thought... This describes my son's strengths better than I have ever managed to. I can't remember how old your daughter is, but if she is younger than mine (mine is 19 and at college now), let me reassure you that this has remained one of the most fabulous things about him, his main advantage over other people (along with the skills he learned at gymnastics). His people skills are fantastic. He has been dumped into some pretty wild situations and he has gotten along swimmingly with everyone from passifist Buddhist monks to his ROTC roommate. He can find enough common ground to get along with anyone. Everyone bends rules and goes out of their way to help him do whatever he wants. He is the happiest person I know. You are absolutely right. Except that he has to pass his coastguard exams. I think that will be different, though. He did better than any of us on his ham radio test, and I think the coast guard exams might be more like that. Meanwhile, his profs like him and are willing to give extra help because he is so obviously interested and trying. At least so far, anyway. Thanks for reminding me... -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 This describes my son's strengths better than I have ever managed to. I can't remember how old your daughter is, but if she is younger than mine (mine is 19 and at college now), let me reassure you that this has remained one of the most fabulous things about him, his main advantage over other people (along with the skills he learned at gymnastics). His people skills are fantastic. He has been dumped into some pretty wild situations and he has gotten along swimmingly with everyone from passifist Buddhist monks to his ROTC roommate. He can find enough common ground to get along with anyone. Everyone bends rules and goes out of their way to help him do whatever he wants. He is the happiest person I know. You are absolutely right. Except that he has to pass his coastguard exams. I think that will be different, though. He did better than any of us on his ham radio test, and I think the coast guard exams might be more like that. Meanwhile, his profs like him and are willing to give extra help because he is so obviously interested and trying. At least so far, anyway.Thanks for reminding me... -Nan You could be writing about my daughter (17). I have often worried about the part about "everyone bending the rules and going out of their way to help (her) do whatever (she) wants." In fact, I got to have my own session with her counselor so I could try and wrap my brain around the fact that it wasn't necessarily a bad thing.:D She has always been a very cheerful person until about two years ago when she hit the depression bump. One of the major issues for her is school with the standardized and proficiency testing. I have always thought, "Oh, if I had just armed her with the right set of skills, all would be well." Now, I am not so sure about that. Another gift from my daughter's counselor was this article from Scientific American Mind. This prompted us to rethink how we approached talking about academics with our children; shifting the focus from intelligence to hard work. I bring this up in part because my daughter is doing very well right now and had an excellent semester. When we asked her what the difference was, she said she worked harder than she ever had and that she asked for help when she needed it. This is huge for her. She always thought asking for help meant that a person was dumb. Her words. If I could have one of my children not have to play the "academic testing game," it would be this one. She delights in learning and discussing new things and the system just squelches the joy. I also wish I had discovered homeschooling much earlier for her sake. Nan, your son must be an amazing young man. The Coast Guard. From a family of swimmers, that gets our utmost respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 I don't know how to do multiple quotes, but I want to throw out something that I've been thinking about, with regards to the satisfaction of working with one's hands (DIY, urban homesteading, etc.), and the value of a broad liberal education. I am in Jane's camp about education for education's sake. But I also recognize that an increasing number of young people are without basic skills, and, I would argue, are deeply dissatisfied because of it. (There is a great scene in Sara Stein's book about this, Noah's Children: Restoring the Ecology of Childhood.) The one line that I remember from the book The Hurried Child is the young boy who was brilliant at mathematics saying that he longed to do something practical, like build a porch or paint a house (I think I have that right). He was brilliant but not satisfied. I think we need practical skills, not just for the sake of being able to function in the world, but because it is deeply, deeply satisfying to make things with our hands. And I would argue that having these skills opens us to the possibility of being able to delight in "purely" academic pursuits. (Tomorrow I am buying coffee for a math professor in exchange for 20 minutes of his time, so he can explain some concepts to me from NEM. I can get the answers, but don't think mathematically, and so cannot talk through the problem. I don't have the vocabulary. He sees math as a game, a puzzle. I see math *problems*! This man delights in math as an abstract thing, but also builds bicycles. Does this make sense?) An excellent article about this, that I read again and again is this one, "The Case for Working With Your Hands": http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html In our world where jobs and lives are increasingly disconnected (digitally) from the "real" world, I think this is important. Somewhat related: I remember bemoaning to my mother once about the fact that we weren't taught the names of trees when I was in school, and I was upset about it. She knew the names of everything! She gasped and said, "I didn't learn that in school! When I was a girl, everyone just knew things like that about our world!" Our world, plants, our food, the things that are basic to our existence, are oddly disconnected from us. Or we from them. (Have you seen the blog by the woman, a teacher in public school, who is eating the cafeteria food every day for a year, documenting what is served. Disgusting! All wrapped in plastic!) I guess what I am thinking is that academic excellence is meaningless (to me) if it occurs in a vacuum. I want the whole package for my children. This is what, I think, others are getting at when they say they want their children to be happy. For me, happiness is not a vague thing, but as attainable as academic excellence, through the teaching of basic skills that connect us with our food, our homes, our community. For me, happiness is about the kind of competence and confidence that allows us to deeply engage and delight in our community. It's about making dinner and sweeping floors and listening to Alan Rickman reading The Return of the Native while doing the chores and loving it all. And I am so grateful for you, for this community of women, and this place where I can think out loud about what is meaningful. Thank you, Lisa, for asking these questions. This entire post requires a long conversation this weekend...right after a multi-quoting demonstration.:D But they also took the time to watch nature! I think that many of the old timers could tell the month by which adult insects were present and which birds were fledging. By not encouraging our children to watch the Japanese beetles in the garden or taste the honeysuckle, we are denying them their bearings with their environment. Of course, having strawberries in the grocery practically year round does not help either. J Jane, it's not just about losing their bearings in the environment, it is about losing the ability to truly "see." My middle child can take a 200 mile road-trip and be connected to his electronics the entire time. He will have no idea about the environment he has just traveled through. The youngest sits side-by-side with his friends at a swim meet and no one talks as they are all wired. Five years ago when my dd was on the same squad, they were playing cards and cheering each other on. I know the kids are learning other skills but like 8Fillsthe heart, I question much of the value of some of those "skills." Anyway, the youngest and I are heading out into the sun tomorrow on a hike armed with our sketch books, colored pencils, tree and bird books, the camera, and lunch. I have found that there is nothing like drawing for helping you to "see" again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Well, Merchant Marine, not Coast Guard, but the Coast Guard licenses them. All those swimming lessons at the Y that we paid for are now looking like a really, really good investment. They began telling us in first grade that our son was going to have to work extra hard to "pass" the MCAS tests (which at that point were supposed to be used just to compare schools in Mass., not individual students) in third grade!!!!!!!! I shake with fury now when I think about it. In third, we began talking about homeschooling him. My husband had to think about it for awhile, since it seemed like a rather drastic solution to the problem and we weren't sure whether it would compound it or not, and by then he was almost in 4th, which has some really good teachers, so we let him do that. Then we pulled him out. It was one of the best decisions of our lives. I didn't test or grade. We eased him into community college slowly. The big emphasis in community college was trying to show him how to get help. It is amazing how hard this is for students. It was an issue for our older one, too, so we knew it was going to be crucial. We had been telling him since we pulled him out that because of the way he is wired, he was going to have to work twice as hard as everyone else to get mediocre grades, but that that didn't matter, and that it had nothing to do with his intelligence, just with his ability to do academic work quickly and accurately. By the time he finished his CC classes, I even had a figure for him - on any test, he has to take into account that he will get 15% wrong through misreading or misunderstanding the question, and he has to take that into account. It seems to have worked, at least the working hard bit. The getting help bit... add a regimental living situation and the distractions of sailing team (no gymnastics there), and that is much more difficult. It is a good thing we emphasized it as much as we did. He flunked calc his first semester. When we asked him what happened, he said time: it took him two hours to iron his shirt at first and with all his regimental duties, it was really hard to get to the tutoring sessions, even though he knew he ought to go. When we said he had to put the academics first, he said yeah, he knew that, but the academics didn't scream at you if you didn't do them. I'm not very rule-oriented myself, so having people bend them for my son never partiularly bothered me. I was just grateful. He got unbendable rules by the thousands now and it doesn't seem to be an issue. Well, sort of unbendable. They appear to be making quite a few allowences for his being in the right place at the wrong time. I'd be really worried if I thought he were a whiner or one of those horrible fake-sincere people in high school who managed to distract the teacher out of their lecture by showing interest in their stories of their childhood, or get the assignments altered for the whole class by playing stupid. The whole academic testing thing was very difficult. My husband and I had no trouble getting good SAT scores. I can't tell whether homeschooling the way we did (no grades, few textbooks, no tests) compounded the whole testing problem. I'm glad we did it that way because it was much easier to educate this son properly that way, and he got mediocre scores on his SATs in any case, and seems to be managing college, except for the calc, which we knew was going to be a problem. I thought about advising him not to take it his first semester (when he was having to figure out how to iron those shirts and other things), but that would have meant a semester-long gap in math, which seemed like an even worse idea. In the end, we made sure he knew that his father had flunked calc the first time round and that he could take it again if need be, and crossed our fingers. This semester, he's managed to get to tutoring at least a few times. He's one of those people who puts all the pieces together at the end, so getting good grades in college is going to be especially hard. His learning curve is flat, flat, flat, sudden spike right at the end of the course, then sudden drop-off when he forgets it all as soon as he stops using it. Grade-wise, that translates to DDDDDB, which doesn't exactly average out to a B. Depression is so awful. I had it in college (went home to my mother mid-semester - good thing I had a strong family) and I've been scared to death I'd get it again ever since. (I haven't.) It is years before you stop feeling fragile and apart. I think, though, that having fallen apart made me stronger and set my priorities straight for my adult life. I hope that will be true for your daughter, as well. My biggest regret in life (so far) is sending my oldest to highschool after homeschooling in 7th and 8th. I should have found a different way. Off to read that article now. THank you! -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I agree with the drawing part (ok Colleen - we've finally gotten to the drawing you wanted to discuss LOL). I've noticed the wired part, too, and am still deciding how I feel about it. I had extremely mixed feelings when my oldest was so horrified that his younger brothers were going off on a cross-country RV trip without an ipod that he gave them his. He stayed home to work and it was a magnificent sacrifice on his part, but... As we discovered long ago, you get to raise the first child, but you have lots of help raising the next ones. At least the other two had to take turns with it. And at least nobody likes rap much. Oldest at least thought to tell me that most of the music was what we call "suitable" (ok for younger children). Most... The things we do in the name of encouraging brotherly love and generosity... This whole conversation is helping me assuage some of the recurring worry about having mine do natural history instead of biology and learning how to draw and identify weeds instead of the intricasies of how their digestive system's chemistry. -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I have found that there is nothing like drawing for helping you to "see" again. I agree with the drawing part (ok Colleen - we've finally gotten to the drawing you wanted to discuss LOL). :D I have nothing profound to say yet - that's why I haven't pursued it any further, heh heh. I am going through DRSB right now, highlighting things and getting an overview of how to use it. Most of the first three chapters say the same thing that Lisa expressed above. I find that this book takes our experience with DWC a little further. And a practical illustration of what Lisa said: we were at the library this morning, when I noticed some "odd" behaviour by a young mother of a baby, who I know from her occasional visits to our church. It registered briefly in my brain, then I went on to help my kids dump books in the return bins and help them find things to reserve on the computer systems. 10 minutes later, the front doors burst open, and in came 4 paramedics and 2 police officers. I heard them asking the shocked librarians where the emergency was in the children's room - the librarians had no clue. The emergency workers fanned out all over the library, and found nothing. Then I realized, "I bet that mother was dialing 911." (I've never talked with her, but she has always struck me as strange and sometimes attention getting) I ran back through in my mind what I had seen and what bothered me about it. She was waiting with her baby in the lobby with the rest of the crowd to get in when the library opened. The library opened, people went in, I went in with my kids, and she stayed in the lobby. I turned and saw her at the pay phone, with her sleeve over her finger, and I did notice that she didn't put money in, but I didn't follow that niggling in my brain all the way through because I was helping my kids. Anyway, after the medics left, the police were still hanging around, and I found from a library clerk that the same thing had happened last week - someone called 911 from the pay phone. So off I went to tell the police what I had seen, and when I described the mother, they reacted as if she was known to them - and I think they said they thought she had done it before. So they talked with her when she came out of the children's room. And of course I could hear her denying calling. When I told my kids about it later, my dd told me about even more odd behaviour that she had noticed the mother doing! She was looking around as if she was trying to hide something, and she only dialed a few numbers and then hung up. Interesting! I guess my point is, I can totally see how there is nothing like drawing (and narrating, and outlining, and practicing music, and anything else that requires some type of noticing) for helping you to "see" again. You can be sure I talked to my kids about that afterwards! :D (as well as telling them to stay away from that lady if she shows up at church again) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 My father used to say that it was important to be able to retell the events after you had seen something, that it wasn't that easy to do if it was something like you just witnessed. He demonstrated once by asking us to retell what had happened on a visit to a gas station. Unfortunately, we never did anything further with the idea, so we never got good at it. When I think of "classical" education, I think of basic skills like that that I wish I had - the ability to remember a sequence of events, eidetic memory, the ability to sing back something or to clap back a long rhythm, the ability to identify musical intervals or sight sing, the ability to line things up spacially so you can draw in perspective, the ability to see 3D things flat so you can draw them, the ability to judge gradations of shading, or to convert from colour to black/white, the ability to tell a good story, with embellishments and suspense and all that, the ability to clearly explain something, the ability memorize poems, all my birds, animals, plants, stars, how everything in nature works, I wish I knew all these basic things. My memory is so awful that I think even if I practised these things, I wouldn't be even a little good at them. If I had learned to do them from the time I was little, though, perhaps I could? -Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 My father used to say that it was important to be able to retell the events after you had seen something, that it wasn't that easy to do if it was something like you just witnessed. ....If I had learned to do them from the time I was little, though, perhaps I could?-Nan I should also add that I felt like an idiot talking to the police, because I got nervous!!!! I was almost hyperventilating and had to stop several times and catch my breath - I just laughed and told them I was nervous - they made some joke about that. I think it was because I was trying not to SAY that she did it, because I don't KNOW for sure - but I felt I should tell them everything I saw. So, the memory was working well, but the nerves were jumping and I felt stupid. :D Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Police have a way of doing that GRIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Colleen - I just got done reading and taking notes on all of the crumpled paper book. Just thought you might like to know you aren't the only one who has to do this wehn trying to accomplish something GRIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I was prompted to start this thread because my youngest is in 6th grade and this year was a pivotal one for my older children. Middle school seems to be the time where "bright" is no longer sufficient and kids need genuine study skills...and so much more as the evolution of this thread has pointed out. Nan, now that I understand that you are talking about an older child, all I can offer you is a different perspective. I am confident that my youngest will master answering the questions not because I teach to the test but because of the way his mind works. He is able to narrow his focus. However, his older sister is very much like yours and Regena's sons. She will take a question, dump it on it's head, spin it around a couple times and come up with numerous scenarios to validate each of the answers. "Overthinking" the question would be an understatement. We have worked on this and worked on this. While she has improved her test taking skills, I don't know that she will ever be able to "just answer the question." Her mind has always ranged over the broader picture and probably always will. While this trait makes it more difficult to test accurately, it is a definite advantage in her personal relationships. She is slower to judge than most and is able to sort through the multiple facets of a situation and see other viewpoints. Which skill will be more useful in helping her craft a happy and rewarding life? I am holding on to this slightly Pollyannish thought. I think this idea may be the one way my daughter hasn't approached a question on a standardized test.:D It's worth a try. Risk-taking in the learning process is huge. The inability to take risks limits the ability to truly grow and learn. Risk-taking isn't just for the student but the teacher as well. As a teacher, I can't imagine how hard teaching would be without being able to take risks and to make some mistakes. What if you always had to play it safe in choosing curricula or sequencing? Where's the joy, the adrenaline rush, and the sleepless nights? Some of the secular curriculum that I have looked at recently (used in public school system) is so scripted, there is no risk of any outside thought or approach. This, and the later discussion in the thread about observation skills, reminds me of the conversation that I just had with the math professor. I mentioned earlier here that I was going to meet up with this awesome guy, and I did. My son is about to start NEM, and I was working through the first chapter on my own, to get a sense of what was going on. There were several problems that I could solve, but some just made me freeze in a kind of apoplectic seizure. The problems I could solve, I could not begin to talk about, and the other problems... ha! Nothing. Empty brain. The first shock was that this math professor said, "I don't see these as math problems. They're more like logic puzzles, to get you to think about numbers." What?! Okay. Buddy, I'm seeing definite problems. Maybe I need to think more in terms of puzzle. I was an absolute whiz in my logic class in college, but we were playing with words, not numbers. So, first off, I have to adjust my thinking. Then, looking at a question that was a series of numbers in an equation, where the student has to insert the parentheses to make a number sentence "true," he said, "Well, everything in here makes things bigger, except for this division sign, which makes things smaller." What?! Bigger and smaller? So totally, totally obvious. I looked at that question and thought, mean, mean joke! What kind of sicko would as a child to do this?! So we talked through, and finally I had to admit that it was this stating of the obvious that was the most helpful to me. He sort of lit up and said, "Actually, noticing the obvious is a really a rather advanced intellectual skill. Some of the biggest advancements in science have resulted from people paying attention to the obvious, and we wonder, why did no one notice that before?" So I realized that I am like Lisa's daughter, in that I tend to make things more complicated, but as I have matured, I have become adept, in some areas, at noticing the obvious. Translating that skill to math is not something that comes easily to me. There was one other striking thing that came from that conversation, but I cannot recall what it was. I will come back and edit. This has been a long week for me, but I have enjoyed dipping into this conversation. When I have a bit more time, I will read through more carefully. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 We do NEM and I have some advice to offer, most of which should be really comforting. The NEM books have a structure. If you understand that structure, it is easier to use them and they aren't as intimidating. Go here: http://www.singaporemath.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/SSSecMath2008.pdf and get the scope and sequence of the course. NEM1, if I remember correctly, goes something like this: Arithmetic Algebra Rate, Ratio, Percent Money Geometry Each year's book teaches each of these things at a higher level until it is assumed that the student finishes the material. That arithmetic section at the beginning of NEM1 is the culmination of the arithmetic in the Primary Math books. It is very hard. If you skip ahead a few chapters to when the algebra begins, you should discover that it gets significantly easier because it is just beginning to teach that subject rather than finishing it up. NEM is very clever and makes one thing lead to another. By the time you finsih working through the arithmetic chapters, you should have a good idea of why the algorithms work the way they do. This is useful when you have to start dealing with variables representing numbers. Work through the sections, but don't be too upset if you can't do it well. The rest of NEM1 is easier. Remember, too, that the grading scale is different for NEM. Here it is: Grading scales used in Singapore for secondary level math A1: 75% and above A2: 70% to 74% B3: 65% to 69% B4: 60% to 64% C5: 55% to 59% C6: 50% to 54% (passing grade) D7: 45% to 49% E8: 40% to 44% F9: Below 40% Notice that 65% is a good solid B. Singapore leaves more room at the top to challenge students. I did it with a student who frequently got two thirds of the problems wrong. He went on to do CC pre-calc, not with stellar grades, but just fine. He says he "rocks" at algebra compared to his classmates. I'm not saying you shouldn't worry if your student gets too many wrong, just that I've tested that grading scale GRIN and it worked. I was, however, very careful to make sure that he did really understand everything, at least to the best of my ability. I didn't move on if he didn't and just assume that he'd be ok. I let him move on even with lots of wrong problems, but not with lots of wrong understanding. The next section, algebra, moves very fast. Don't panic. The other important thing to understand about NEM is that it feeds the students math in biggish chunks. It is the opposite of Saxon. Saxon give one or two tiny steps, then has the student practise those with a few problems, then gives a few more steps, and gradually builds up to harder problems. It has the advantage that it reviews everything constantly. Singapore gives the students a huge chunk of algebra in a few chapters, and then lets them spend the rest of the book practising it doing word problems, money problems, and geometry. This is great for students who need to see the big picture or those who need to see how something is applied to understand it or those who need a hands-on approach to learn. It does, however, require that you not expect your student to put all the pieces together and get most of the problems right right away. After a few chapters of algebra, we stopped and did Keys to Algebra 1-3 because my son was complaining (both sons, actually) that he couldn't remember "all those little rules". KtA was great for this and fit very well with NEM. The advantage to the NEM system is that the student gets an equal amount of practice with all the bits of algebra instead of knowing the first things presented well and not getting to practice the later ones as much. This is probably when, if you have been doing Singapore all the way along, you are going to have a batch of HUGE battles about showing work. Singapore uses easy problems to demonstrate and for initial practice, on the theory that the child will know if what he is doing makes sense. Your child can probably do the problems in his head, but that would defeat the purpose completely. Make him write out the steps. Try to make him be able to show you which rule allows him to do each step. I only had limited success with the last, but ideally, that is how it would work. It works best if you do each problem and then check the answer right away and not move on until you can get it right or you at least know that you just made a stupid mistake. We used stickies to speed up the process. Putting a sticky right above the problem you are working on in the book helped, too. So did having my son write all the signs in a different colour for a few lessons. One other thing - the problems go from easiest to hardest. The first few just practice the mechanics of the new material. Then you are expected to apply it. Then you are expected to apply it along with anything else you have learned in the past. Review is built in in this way. That means that just straight doing the odds may not work very well. I had my slow worker do 1,2,3, and then the odds or whichever problems I thought reviewed something he needed reviewed. That way he got more practice with the mechanics. Every few chapters there is a review section, broken up into five or so sets of problems. We were careful to do these. My non-math one skipped the challenger set, but we tried to do the problem solvers. These we put times on - try each for 10 minutes. We read the new set and then go do the last set, leaving our subconciouses to work on the new set for a few weeks. HTH Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 (edited) Colleen - I just got done reading and taking notes on all of the crumpled paper book. Just thought you might like to know you aren't the only one who has to do this wehn trying to accomplish something GRIN. THANK YOU!!!!! it was this stating of the obvious that was the most helpful to me. He sort of lit up and said, "Actually, noticing the obvious is a really a rather advanced intellectual skill. Some of the biggest advancements in science have resulted from people paying attention to the obvious, and we wonder, why did no one notice that before?" Huh, this is very interesting to me! I'll look forward to hearing more when you get a chance. EDIT: Ok, returning with musings...do you think it's because of the learning to observe thing? Like, if we really slow down, pay attention, and observe what's going on, things become more obvious? (OK, that's probably really OBVIOUS to others, but I'm just cluing in...):D Edited February 19, 2010 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Nan, the awesomeness of you NEM post is indescribable. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Nicole, please do come back and edit when you remember that other thing. I'm glad my post about NEM helped. It took me awhile to see the pattern of the book. I agree with your prof about the obvious things. I associate a certain kind of intelligence with that, not the get-all-As-at-MIT sort, but the invent really important things sort. It was cool to hear about your help session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Another Jen Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Another gift from my daughter's counselor was this article from Scientific American Mind. Does anyone have another link or access to the entire article? I'm interested but $7.95 seems like a lot to read one article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does anyone have another link or access to the entire article? I'm interested but $7.95 seems like a lot to read one article. Do you have access to a good library? They may carry the magazine. Alternatively, they may be able to get it for you through inter-library loan. Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does anyone have another link or access to the entire article? I'm interested but $7.95 seems like a lot to read one article. Ugh! Sorry about that. I'll see what I can find. It's part of a great book but I though the title might be off-setting for some. If I can't find a link, I will pm you with a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I just want to take off for a moment on Colleen's posts about art, and all creative thinking, in general. I just heard Sir Ken Robinson speaking tonight and I looked up some info on him. On the site I am linking, there is a video of a short talk he did at a conference on creativity and how our schools have been killing that for kids for some time now. He doesn't really go into too much detail, as he was obviously speaking to entertain as much as anything, but he does mention some interesting tidbits. There's also a link on the same page, just above the video, to an article he did called "One Child Left Behind", which is interesting. I'm glad to see that some think tank sorts are beginning to question where our system of education is going in terms of serving our children for their future world! http://blog.ted.com/2009/01/sir_ken_robinso_1.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I just want to take off for a moment on Colleen's posts about art, and all creative thinking, in general. I just heard Sir Ken Robinson speaking tonight and I looked up some info on him. On the site I am linking, there is a video of a short talk he did at a conference on creativity and how our schools have been killing that for kids for some time now. He doesn't really go into too much detail, as he was obviously speaking to entertain as much as anything, but he does mention some interesting tidbits. There's also a link on the same page, just above the video, to an article he did called "One Child Left Behind", which is interesting. I'm glad to see that some think tank sorts are beginning to question where our system of education is going in terms of serving our children for their future world! http://blog.ted.com/2009/01/sir_ken_robinso_1.php Regena, thanks! I just reserved his book from our library system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MellowYellow Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) I'm bumping this old thread because I found it enormously beneficial. Click on the tags below for more pure gold. Edited September 27, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabel Lee Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Holy threads of wisdom, Batman! I'm subscribing so I can read it all later. Thank you so much, Kristina, for bumping this up! My husband & I were just discussing this today - very timely suggestions for our family. Where did the folks who posted in this in 2010 go? I see names of people I remember & miss reading their posts. Are they on the high school board or just gone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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