Of Mice and Men book....help

[Holly IN]

DS read this book for his worldview class. The teacher is in disagreement with my son on this book. My son says the book is about Men who are Real Men and Men who are mice. He explained in detail through an essay about this book. She said what he said is not what the book says. I am more in agreement with my son than what the teacher is. All she told him was that was not what the book is about but yet didn't tell him what her thoughts are.

 

So if you know this book can you tell me your thoughts.

Holly

[Mrs Mungo]

Has she read the Robert Burn's poem To a Mouse? The title of the book is a partial quote from this poem, which is about weak and strong people. In the book there are strong people, like George and weak people like Candy. It's also about dreams and how life messes them up (reflected in several characters of the book).

 

The poem is also about oppression of the strong over the weak-Lennie starts off killing mice but then moves on to killing a human. On the other hand, Lennie protects George and vice-versa. Various characters "see" different reasons for this-Curley implies that they're homosexual, for example. I think the title is two-fold. Firstly, it is intended to make you question who is the man and who is the mouse in the relationship of Lennie and George. One is strong in body but weak in mind, the other is strong in mind but weak in body. Which is ultimately "stronger" from the viewpoint of human oppression? Can a mouse ultimately protect a man or vice versa? How might this connect with the Bibilical verse about being unequally yoked? Secondly, it is about the fact that in the grand scheme men are no more secure than mice.

 

Just a few thoughts...

Edited January 22, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Lori D.]

OFF TOPIC: Mrs. Mungo,

May I just say that I absolutely love your signature quotes *every*single*time* I see them. Hilarious! :D Thanks for the much needed giggles!

Warmest regards, Lori D.

[lionfamily1999]

DS read this book for his worldview class. The teacher is in disagreement with my son on this book. My son says the book is about Men who are Real Men and Men who are mice. He explained in detail through an essay about this book. She said what he said is not what the book says. I am more in agreement with my son than what the teacher is. All she told him was that was not what the book is about but yet didn't tell him what her thoughts are.

 

So if you know this book can you tell me your thoughts.

Holly

Was she saying he misquoted?

 

This was the one about Lenny and the rabbits, right? George was his friend that tried to keep him out of trouble?

 

I really dislike when a teacher asks an opinion, what was your take on this book, and then disagrees. Did he read the book?

[Holly IN]

Oh he read it. He LOVED the book. She discredit him because he liked the book. He felt even though there were bad words in it, the book had a great viewpoint about men.

 

Holly

[Charles Wallace]

DS read this book for his worldview class. The teacher is in disagreement with my son on this book. My son says the book is about Men who are Real Men and Men who are mice. He explained in detail through an essay about this book. She said what he said is not what the book says. I am more in agreement with my son than what the teacher is. All she told him was that was not what the book is about but yet didn't tell him what her thoughts are.

 

So if you know this book can you tell me your thoughts.

Holly

 

Honestly? I'd have to hear more about his definition of "real men" vs. "mice." From what I can tell, though, it sounds as if your son may be doing some degree of oversimplification of the novel.

 

For one, the title is an allusion to a Robert Burns poem in which the following line appears:

 

"The best-laid plans of mice and men

Gang aft aglee."

 

"Gang aft aglee" means "go often awry," or "often go wrong." On a strict level of plot, that describes the book in a nutshell.

 

Again, I'd have to see his analysis to make a final determination, but from what you've described, I'm not (yet) persuaded that his teacher is wrong.

[Scarlett]

OFF TOPIC: Mrs. Mungo,

May I just say that I absolutely love your signature quotes *every*single*time* I see them. Hilarious! :D Thanks for the much needed giggles!

Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Me too....and I would like to add that thinking of a kitten biting the dust gives me pause in my apostrophe use.

[lionfamily1999]

Oh he read it. He LOVED the book. She discredit him because he liked the book. He felt even though there were bad words in it, the book had a great viewpoint about men.

 

Holly

Holly, this is where my head explodes and then I say (to your ds)...

 

You have one of two choices. You can get a bad grade and stand by your opinion or you can get a good grade and put down what the teacher wants to read. Personally, I know b.s. can get you an 'A' and I also know that's one way to get far in this world. Apparently, the teacher is not interested in your opinion, the teacher wants the opinion that has been handed in every time. Originality, even if you back it up with text, is going to get you a low grade. Go with the canned answer and get a good grade.

 

I'm sorry.

[Holly IN]

Holly, this is where my head explodes and then I say (to your ds)...

 

You have one of two choices. You can get a bad grade and stand by your opinion or you can get a good grade and put down what the teacher wants to read. Personally, I know b.s. can get you an 'A' and I also know that's one way to get far in this world. Apparently, the teacher is not interested in your opinion, the teacher wants the opinion that has been handed in every time. Originality, even if you back it up with text, is going to get you a low grade. Go with the canned answer and get a good grade.

 

I'm sorry.

 

That stinks!!! This is what my dh said also. He said this teacher is not thinking classically. He said she is expecting a canned response and got floored when my son gave his response. He said that she probably didn't realize you can come away with a whole different outlook from the book than she would. During class discussion of this book, he said he felt they over-analyzed the book for the sake of analyzing.

 

So frustrating. I hear what you are saying. Dh said the same thing. He said she is not a classical educator. She is a traditionalist.

 

Holly

[Holly IN]

Has she read the Robert Burn's poem To a Mouse? The title of the book is a partial quote from this poem, which is about weak and strong people. In the book there are strong people, like George and weak people like Candy. It's also about dreams and how life messes them up (reflected in several characters of the book).

 

The poem is also about oppression of the strong over the weak-Lennie starts off killing mice but then moves on to killing a human. On the other hand, Lennie protects George and vice-versa. Various characters "see" different reasons for this-Curley implies that they're homosexual, for example. I think the title is two-fold. Firstly, it is intended to make you question who is the man and who is the mouse in the relationship of Lennie and George. One is strong in body but weak in mind, the other is strong in mind but weak in body. Which is ultimately "stronger" from the viewpoint of human oppression? Can a mouse ultimately protect a man or vice versa? How might this connect with the Bibilical verse about being unequally yoked? Secondly, it is about the fact that in the grand scheme men are no more secure than mice.

 

Just a few thoughts...

 

MRS. MUNGO!!! This is exactly what my ds stated in his report. Now he is very upset. lol!! I read his report again and this is what he came up with. She totally disagreed with this. Oh well....not what she wanted to hear anyway. He came away from class feeling that his teacher do not like dreamers. (this is a homeschool mom who is done homeschooling and has a Masters in Education)

 

Holly

[Charles Wallace]

That stinks!!! This is what my dh said also. He said this teacher is not thinking classically. He said she is expecting a canned response and got floored when my son gave his response. He said that she probably didn't realize you can come away with a whole different outlook from the book than she would. During class discussion of this book, he said he felt they over-analyzed the book for the sake of analyzing.

 

So frustrating. I hear what you are saying. Dh said the same thing. He said she is not a classical educator. She is a traditionalist.

 

Holly

 

With all due respect -- and I'm only going by the information you've given here -- it sounds as if your DS may not be supporting his view sufficiently or interpreting evidence far enough beyond a literal level. For one, the "bad language" issue leads me -- perhaps incorrectly?-- to wonder if he understands that every good author, and Steinbeck is one of them, does everything for a reason, including whether or not to use a "bad word" over one less bad. In the case of OM&M, Steinbeck's goal is to present a realistic, true-to-life picture of two itinerant farm workers. To sanitize the language would have been an absurd distortion of the realism he felt was far more important than the sensibilities of his audience. It would have been an ethical violation, in short. From your son's comment, it may not be clear that he grasps the implications of that choice, but of course I could be wrong.

 

As far as overanalyzing, again, a good author does everything for a reason. Therefore, your discussion about overanalyzing leads me to suppose (again, perhaps inaccurately) that your DS may not be taking the book sufficiently below the level of the literal. Many students in my experience who have a difficult time understanding symbolism, irony, and those below-the-surface concepts respond with, "Well, you're reading too much into it." From their perspective, they're right -- but that's generally been, in my experience, because they weren't able to read enough into it themselves. Again, not knowing your son or his teacher, I can't say for certain if this is the case.

 

I'm not convinced, at least not with the data I have, that your teacher is simply rejecting your son's opinion as wrong because it disagrees with her own. Could it be that your son's opinion wasn't sufficiently supported with relevant, in-depth analysis of the evidence from the text?

 

Just wondering.

[Julie in MN]

He said this teacher is not thinking classically. He said she is expecting a canned response and got floored when my son gave his response. He said that she probably didn't realize you can come away with a whole different outlook from the book than she would.

 

Not sure if this is what's going on, but I wanted to say that, classic or not, canned responses are in the majority in college, IMHO. My worst experiences with this were in Logic, which is "classic."

 

I tell my kids that a teacher is not teaching you everything to know about a topic. A teacher is teaching you one specific body of knowledge, and she is testing you to see if you have absorbed that specific body of knowledge which she has taught. After the class, you may add to that knowledge and perhaps go off in a completely different direction. But during that class, you will more likely than not be expected to demonstrate that you have learned exactly what the teacher has taught, nothing more or less.

 

ETA: I didn't like it as a young person, but as an "older" :) person now, I do think there is a certain sense to it. For instance, if I am trying to explain something to someone, the first thing I need to know is that they "hear" me -- they understand exactly what I am trying to say. Only when they demonstrate that they understand "my" statement can I listen to them tell me a different point of view. So, I think often a class is basically trying to make sure you "hear" that body of knowledge (which may well be based on extensive experienced study, but not always).

 

Julie

Edited January 23, 2010 by Julie in MN

[Mrs Mungo]

OFF TOPIC: Mrs. Mungo,

May I just say that I absolutely love your signature quotes *every*single*time* I see them. Hilarious! :D Thanks for the much needed giggles!

Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Me too....and I would like to add that thinking of a kitten biting the dust gives me pause in my apostrophe use.

 

Hooray! Making people smile and making people think are my life goals. :D I'm so happy you're saving the lives of kittens! :lol:

 

MRS. MUNGO!!! This is exactly what my ds stated in his report. Now he is very upset. lol!! I read his report again and this is what he came up with. She totally disagreed with this. Oh well....not what she wanted to hear anyway. He came away from class feeling that his teacher do not like dreamers. (this is a homeschool mom who is done homeschooling and has a Masters in Education)

 

Holly

 

I have a degree in Literature and I agree with your son, so THERE! :tongue_smilie: What's important here though is supporting your views. You must show concrete examples of these things from the text. I had a Shakespeare professor (I had him for several classes as Shakespeare was my "major figure") who made 4-5 people read the best answers in class. He *always* chose me to read one of my answers. However, he'd usually say "that's a great answer, it's wrong, but it's a great answer." Literature and art interpretation are subjective. If it doesn't speak to different people in a different manner then it isn't doing its job.

[Holly IN]

Thanks Mrs. Mungo!!

 

Charles Wallace....I see that you haven't been here long. Not sure why I have to explain more than what I did. Several others see what my son was doing. Are you a classical educator or have experience in literature?? I kind of feel that you are wanting to argue the point here. Not really wanting to do that unless you want me to produce my son's paper. My question was a simple question not complex. Btw, the bad word thing....this was discussed in class and everybody but my son put the book down just because it had bad words. So it had to be mentioned in the report as this was a Biblical Worldview class. I really do not want to take this further with you. ;)

 

I will take Mrs. Mungo and others on here advice/comments very seriously.

 

Thank you all for your insights and comments. My ds is happy now. He is not happy about having to give a canned response to get a good grade though. It is up to him though if he wants to respond in a way that he is getting out of the book.

 

Thank you very much!!

 

Holly

[Charles Wallace]

Thanks Mrs. Mungo!!

 

Charles Wallace....I see that you haven't been here long.

 

I have, but I usually lurk. I'm sure you wouldn't assert that the length of time I have been on a message board would make my opinion no more nor less valid, I assume.

Not sure why I have to explain more than what I did.

Surely you don't believe you "have to" do anything. You are free to respond to my comments or ignore them as you see fit.

Several others see what my son was doing. Are you a classical educator or have experience in literature??

Since you asked, I am happy to introduce myself and produce a shortened version of my C.V., if you like. My spouse (who minored in Classics) and I homeschool using classical education methods. I myself have been a full-time high school English teacher for over a decade (and have taught on numerous occasions the text to which you refer), and I got my master's degree and accomplished further graduate work in English literature in a university acclaimed for its work in the Great Books. If you would like further information, I am happy to provide it.

 

I kind of feel that you are wanting to argue the point here. Not really wanting to do that unless you want me to produce my son's paper. My question was a simple question not complex. Btw, the bad word thing....this was discussed in class and everybody but my son put the book down just because it had bad words. So it had to be mentioned in the report as this was a Biblical Worldview class. I really do not want to take this further with you. ;)

By all means, feel free to do or not do as you choose.

 

Yours,

C.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Charles Wallace

[lionfamily1999]

With all due respect -- and I'm only going by the information you've given here -- it sounds as if your DS may not be supporting his view sufficiently or interpreting evidence far enough beyond a literal level. For one, the "bad language" issue leads me -- perhaps incorrectly?-- to wonder if he understands that every good author, and Steinbeck is one of them, does everything for a reason, including whether or not to use a "bad word" over one less bad. In the case of OM&M, Steinbeck's goal is to present a realistic, true-to-life picture of two itinerant farm workers. To sanitize the language would have been an absurd distortion of the realism he felt was far more important than the sensibilities of his audience. It would have been an ethical violation, in short. From your son's comment, it may not be clear that he grasps the implications of that choice, but of course I could be wrong.

 

As far as overanalyzing, again, a good author does everything for a reason. Therefore, your discussion about overanalyzing leads me to suppose (again, perhaps inaccurately) that your DS may not be taking the book sufficiently below the level of the literal. Many students in my experience who have a difficult time understanding symbolism, irony, and those below-the-surface concepts respond with, "Well, you're reading too much into it." From their perspective, they're right -- but that's generally been, in my experience, because they weren't able to read enough into it themselves. Again, not knowing your son or his teacher, I can't say for certain if this is the case.

 

I'm not convinced, at least not with the data I have, that your teacher is simply rejecting your son's opinion as wrong because it disagrees with her own. Could it be that your son's opinion wasn't sufficiently supported with relevant, in-depth analysis of the evidence from the text?

 

Just wondering.

You are the perfect person to ask this (having read your short bio down below). What should he do, then, if he sees something else there? The teacher, imo, is looking for a specific answer. Should he stand by his opinion and argue it, or just parrot what is expected?

 

**********************

I do know, Holly, that parroting is a necessary skill for college. Btdt, they do not want to know what the student thinks, but what they can regurgitate. It must be different after some years, perhaps past their bachelor's, but till then, they just want you to tell them back what they told you.

[Corraleno]

You are the perfect person to ask this (having read your short bio down below). What should he do, then, if he sees something else there? The teacher, imo, is looking for a specific answer. Should he stand by his opinion and argue it, or just parrot what is expected?

 

I'm not Charles, but I can tell you how I dealt with this problem in college. I would give the "standard" interpretation or analysis, as it had been presented in the text or lectures, then I would add something along the lines of "Looked at another way, however, one might argue that....." If there were alternate opinions among scholars, I might cite those, along with my own opinion.

 

I only had one lit professor in college who was really pedantic and did not like ANY disagreement, so I just played the game for 2 courses and then didn't take any more classes with her. Other professors, in Lit, History, and assorted social sciences, responded well, because I was (1) demonstrating that I knew and understood the material as taught, and (2) I had thought about it, done additional research, and was able to back up my own opinion if it differed from the mainstream view.

 

So that would be my advice: demonstrate that you do know and understand the answer the teacher is looking for, then present your own opinion ~ and back it up with a thorough and thoughtful analysis.

 

Jackie

[Holly IN]

ok... this paper he did is an independent paper. They didn't discuss this book until AFTER the paper was due. Now the bad word discussion happened before the paper was due. Some of the kids had read ahead and talked to the teacher about why she wanted this book read with all the stuff in it. My ds didn't have a problem with it.

 

What I told earlier is what he stated in his report. So how do you handle this situation when there were no lectures in class on this book until after it was due. I can understand if she wanted a canned response based on lecture but no lecture (except bad word discussion) in class until after.

 

My guess is she wanted to see what each student came away from the book however at the same time expected a canned response.

 

Mrs. Mungo and a few others said what my son said on his paper. So he is not the only one that came away from this book with that outlook. I even remember coming away from that book with that mindset as well long ago. I didn't tell what my son to write. He did this entirely on his own with no discussion from me. This is an outside class in what is called "Biblical Worldview" with Worldview, literature and writing (anaylsis essays and report).

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Holly

[lionfamily1999]

I'm not Charles, but I can tell you how I dealt with this problem in college. I would give the "standard" interpretation or analysis, as it had been presented in the text or lectures, then I would add something along the lines of "Looked at another way, however, one might argue that....." If there were alternate opinions among scholars, I might cite those, along with my own opinion.

 

I only had one lit professor in college who was really pedantic and did not like ANY disagreement, so I just played the game for 2 courses and then didn't take any more classes with her. Other professors, in Lit, History, and assorted social sciences, responded well, because I was (1) demonstrating that I knew and understood the material as taught, and (2) I had thought about it, done additional research, and was able to back up my own opinion if it differed from the mainstream view.

 

So that would be my advice: demonstrate that you do know and understand the answer the teacher is looking for, then present your own opinion ~ and back it up with a thorough and thoughtful analysis.

 

Jackie

That is good advice.

ok... this paper he did is an independent paper. They didn't discuss this book until AFTER the paper was due. Now the bad word discussion happened before the paper was due. Some of the kids had read ahead and talked to the teacher about why she wanted this book read with all the stuff in it. My ds didn't have a problem with it.

 

What I told earlier is what he stated in his report. So how do you handle this situation when there were no lectures in class on this book until after it was due. I can understand if she wanted a canned response based on lecture but no lecture (except bad word discussion) in class until after.

 

My guess is she wanted to see what each student came away from the book however at the same time expected a canned response.

 

Mrs. Mungo and a few others said what my son said on his paper. So he is not the only one that came away from this book with that outlook. I even remember coming away from that book with that mindset as well long ago. I didn't tell what my son to write. He did this entirely on his own with no discussion from me. This is an outside class in what is called "Biblical Worldview" with Worldview, literature and writing (anaylsis essays and report).

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Holly

I'm surprised there was no ongoing discussion on the book. Were they just given this to do at home, until it was due?!? Whenever this has come up for me (and in college this was my biggest issue and the reason I never walked away without completing a few classes) I have stuck by my opinion, again to my own detriment. I wonder if the lesson here isn't to learn when to bend?

 

I'm trying to think positively, I know my first few responses were brimming with my own irritation. This IS (imo) a big skill needed for college. Perhaps, if he was expected to research for his paper, he could've found the canned answer she wanted.

 

The whole thing makes me cranky and tired. I'm sorry your ds is going through all this mess.

[Charles Wallace]

You are the perfect person to ask this (having read your short bio down below). What should he do, then, if he sees something else there? The teacher, imo, is looking for a specific answer. Should he stand by his opinion and argue it, or just parrot what is expected?

 

**********************

I do know, Holly, that parroting is a necessary skill for college. Btdt, they do not want to know what the student thinks, but what they can regurgitate. It must be different after some years, perhaps past their bachelor's, but till then, they just want you to tell them back what they told you.

 

I can only speak for myself as a teacher and express what I would prefer from my students (and what I would advise my own child to do in the OP's child's position).

 

By no means have I always agreed with my students, whether we're talking their views of politics, religion, gender, music, movies, or what have you. I make a point of telling them that I will argue both/all/any sides of an argument, that they will never know what I truly believe if I can help it, and that what I want from them is not for them to be good little parrots, but to be independent thinkers.

 

Many times, students have argued points about literature with which I have disagreed. Much of the time, they've supported their argument poorly, either with insufficient evidence, selective evidence taken out of context and distorted, or misunderstood evidence. Silly example: If I take a quote about a movie review and render it as "It's incredible!" and leave out the part where it said "...that such a piece of garbage ever made it on screen," I'm distorting and misreading. In that case, the problem is not my belief or opinion. The problem is the accuracy of their reading and the deploying of their evidence.

 

However -- to my delight! -- many students have also done quite the opposite: supported an argument I was inclined to disagree with because they'd quoted accurately, explained abundantly, supported their logical argument well, and so on. Again in that case, their success is not due to my belief or opinion but to the accuracy of their reading and the deploying of their evidence. I've enjoyed very much seeing people think for themselves...and seeing them convince me.

 

Bottom line, I would conference with the teacher and hear what she has to say regarding the accuracy of the argument. I would ask, respectfully, to see a rubric used to grade the paper and to ask about the basis on which the grade was given. I would reconsider the argument with an open mind and try to rewrite the paper to bolster what I was saying if, after everything, I still found the argument valid and well-supported and honest.

 

Thanks for asking!

Edited January 25, 2010 by Charles Wallace

[Charles Wallace]

I'm not Charles, but I can tell you how I dealt with this problem in college. I would give the "standard" interpretation or analysis, as it had been presented in the text or lectures, then I would add something along the lines of "Looked at another way, however, one might argue that....." If there were alternate opinions among scholars, I might cite those, along with my own opinion.

 

 

 

Jackie

I like this -- in a spirit of compromise, as it were, between your own view and the view of another, acknowledging what every decent lit. professor knows, which is that there is always more than one way to examine a literary work. Maybe not all ways are of equal value, but they should all be considered in the light that they may be!

[lionfamily1999]

I can only speak for myself as a teacher and express what I would prefer from my students (and what I would advise my own child to do in the OP's child's position).

 

By no means have I always agreed with my students, whether we're talking their views of politics, religion, gender, music, movies, or what have you. I make a point of telling them that I will argue both/all/any sides of an argument, that they will never know what I truly believe if I can help it, and that what I want from them is not for them to be good little parrots, but to be independent thinkers.

 

Many times, students have argued points about literature with which I have disagreed. Much of the time, they've supported their argument poorly, either with insufficient evidence, selective evidence taken out of context and distorted, or misunderstood evidence. Silly example: If I take a quote about a movie review and render it as "It's incredible!" and leave out the part where it said "...that such a piece of garbage ever made it on screen," I'm distorting and misreading. In that case, the problem is not my belief or opinion. The problem is the accuracy of their reading and the deploying of their evidence.

 

However -- to my delight! -- many students have also done quite the opposite: supported an argument I was inclined to disagree with because they'd quoted accurately, explained abundantly, supported their logical argument well, and so on. Again in that case, their success is not due to my belief or opinion but to the accuracy of their reading and the deploying of their evidence. I've enjoyed very much seeing people think for themselves...and seeing them convince me.

 

Bottom line, I would conference with the teacher and hear what she has to say regarding the accuracy of the argument. I would ask, respectfully, to see a rubric used to grade the paper and to ask about the basis on which the grade was given. I would reconsider the argument with an open mind and try to rewrite the paper to bolster what I was saying if, after everything, I still found the argument valid and well-supported and honest.

 

Thanks for asking!

That is good advice. It would not occur to me to try a conference with the teacher, but I do think this is a case where the mama bear could come out of her cave and look for 'why' for the little one.

 

ETA, you are a rare breed and, I'm sure, one of those influential teachers people remember fondly for the rest of their lives. Ime, most other teachers want the canned answers and find those willing to defend their point to be trouble makers or "unwilling to work well with others" &tc.

 

IMO, that's a poor way to conduct a class for kids that age.

I agree.

 

As to the rest, it's her son. I would have defended mine vehemently too. I dare say, Mr. Wallace understood why she might have responded like that.

[Charles Wallace]

That is good advice. It would not occur to me to try a conference with the teacher, but I do think this is a case where the mama bear could come out of her cave and look for 'why' for the little one.

 

I agree.

 

As to the rest, it's her son. I would have defended mine vehemently too. I dare say, Mr. Wallace understood why she might have responded like that.

 

*Snort* I've often joked that one of the best reasons to homeschool our child is so that I don't inflict myself on the poor, unsuspecting teachers of our district.:D

[lionfamily1999]

*Snort* I've often joked that one of the best reasons to homeschool our child is so that I don't inflict myself on the poor, unsuspecting teachers of our district.:D

:lol:

[Holly IN]

Teacher allows no re-writes. Sadly!! Anyway ds is ok now that he knows others like Mrs. Mungo and a few others here came to the same conclusion.

 

Holly

[lionfamily1999]

Holly, I want to call and schedule a parent teacher conference now. Erg.

 

This is a separate class you signed him up for? You mostly hs, or do you after school?

 

If it's a class you signed him up for, then at least this is a lesson learned for all involved (no more classes with this teacher). If not... I'd be tempted to do make sure this would not happen again.

 

Not having conversations leading up to the paper... I don't understand that at all.

[Holly IN]

I think Charles Wallace has been nothing but kind and thoughtful in his responses, yet it was you who responded to him a bit 'snippy'. To me, it's not really fair to jump on a person and and question their length of time here, as if this board was some exclusive club. Also, you never mentioned that there was no discussion about this book before essays were written. IMO, that's a poor way to conduct a class for kids that age. Also, while I realize you claim Mrs Mungo's views were similar to your son's, I still think it would have been more helpful had you actually given a better description of what he actually wrote.

 

I didn't feel that he was kind. Oh well. I never stated this board was an exclusive club. I just questioned his statements as to why he was making them since they were total opposite of some on this thread. That was why I questioned a bit.

 

Sorry for "not" mentioning that there were no discussion of this book. When I wrote my first OP message for this I didn't think of everything until the postings came. Sorry I can't think of everything in the first post. I agree, that it is a poor way to conduct a class to have no class discussion until after the report was due.

 

My time is limited here so I can only do what I need to get some sort of help to figure out where my ds went wrong in his essay. Just frustrating to me!!

 

To answer your 2nd post question: I have no idea. This class is made up of homeschool students. The teacher is a fundamentalist big time. 3 of the students are "scared" of anything that would be deemed sinful. Yes we are to abstain from evil but for us it is different than the teacher and these 3 students. So for the book to have the bad words and the other stuff in it was a horrible thing some of the students. My ds learned from that is they love to censor books, movies and whatnot. We look at the story the author wants to tell and he didn't learn that in class. (at home he did!!) :) Thanks to SWB!!

I will never do a worldview class outside of the home ever again. Too many variables. This was a good lesson learned for me and ds. Too bad he will not learn in this class about how to properly analyze literature but only to put down the book based on certain criterias.

 

Anyway....

 

I do apologize if I seemed snippy with Charles Wallace.

 

Holly

[Holly IN]

Holly, I want to call and schedule a parent teacher conference now. Erg.

 

This is a separate class you signed him up for? You mostly hs, or do you after school?

 

If it's a class you signed him up for, then at least this is a lesson learned for all involved (no more classes with this teacher). If not... I'd be tempted to do make sure this would not happen again.

 

Not having conversations leading up to the paper... I don't understand that at all.

 

LOL!! I know. I do want to call a parent teacher conference too but do know that it will only make things worse for my ds. You can have the conference though. ;)

 

I homeschool for all subjects except for the Worldview class. So yes it is a class I signed him up for. Yep! Lesson learned. My hubby is very frustrated with this teacher as well. Some of the stuff she has said made my hubby scratch his head a lot. :) No more classes with this teacher!!

 

Holly

[lionfamily1999]

I can hear my mother in the back of my head (want to ring her scrawny little neck). :lol:

 

Tell ds, we appreciated his pov.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think Charles Wallace has been nothing but kind and thoughtful in his responses, yet it was you who responded to him a bit 'snippy'. To me, it's not really fair to jump on a person and and question their length of time here, as if this board was some exclusive club. Also, you never mentioned that there was no discussion about this book before essays were written. IMO, that's a poor way to conduct a class for kids that age. Also, while I realize you claim Mrs Mungo's views were similar to your son's, I still think it would have been more helpful had you actually given a better description of what he actually wrote.

 

And to be fair, my post actually agreed with CW's in that I stated the argument and its points must be well supported with quotes from the text. Background information also goes far. Did your son use the Robert Burns poem as part of his evidence? It is common knowledge that the Burns poem was the inspiration for the title. Quoting the poem and lining up the story with the poem are important elements in arguing this point. You can't just say "this is what I think," you must explain why in detail.

[Mrs Mungo]

I didn't feel that he was kind. Oh well. I never stated this board was an exclusive club. I just questioned his statements as to why he was making them since they were total opposite of some on this thread. That was why I questioned a bit.

 

Sorry for "not" mentioning that there were no discussion of this book. When I wrote my first OP message for this I didn't think of everything until the postings came. Sorry I can't think of everything in the first post. I agree, that it is a poor way to conduct a class to have no class discussion until after the report was due.

 

My time is limited here so I can only do what I need to get some sort of help to figure out where my ds went wrong in his essay. Just frustrating to me!!

 

To answer your 2nd post question: I have no idea. This class is made up of homeschool students. The teacher is a fundamentalist big time. 3 of the students are "scared" of anything that would be deemed sinful. Yes we are to abstain from evil but for us it is different than the teacher and these 3 students. So for the book to have the bad words and the other stuff in it was a horrible thing some of the students. My ds learned from that is they love to censor books, movies and whatnot. We look at the story the author wants to tell and he didn't learn that in class. (at home he did!!) :) Thanks to SWB!!

I will never do a worldview class outside of the home ever again. Too many variables. This was a good lesson learned for me and ds. Too bad he will not learn in this class about how to properly analyze literature but only to put down the book based on certain criterias.

 

Anyway....

 

I do apologize if I seemed snippy with Charles Wallace.

 

Holly

 

This isn't a class based on Thomas Jefferson Education is it? There is definitely a "how does this fit in our world view? Oh, it doesn't, therefore it is bad" vibe that fits with the TJ Ed stuff. Just curious.

[angela in ohio]

I didn't feel that he was kind. Oh well. I never stated this board was an exclusive club. I just questioned his statements as to why he was making them since they were total opposite of some on this thread. That was why I questioned a bit.

 

Sometimes the kindest people are the ones who are willing to go against the crowd and say what needs to be said instead of what everyone wants to hear. :001_smile:

[Charles Wallace]

 

Anyway....

 

I do apologize if I seemed snippy with Charles Wallace.

 

Holly

 

Thank you! I accept your apology with thanks.:001_smile:

[abbeyej]

I'm coming into the conversation rather late. I wanted to say though that I think Charles Wallace (and how could one not be inclined to love a poster with that name already!) actually gave you very *good* information and advice. Now, it's possible that this teacher is not very good and perhaps she did disagree with your son simply because his argument did not support her own conclusions or idea of world view (which can be a rather different topic than literary analysis). But generally speaking good literature teachers and professors *do* take the approach that CW described: they want students to read closely, think deeply, and support their arguments with specific examples from the text -- even when their conclusions differ from those of the instructor! (Granted, not all literature instructors are good -- but many are, and I think it's unwise and self-defeating to assume that most are not.)

 

If I were you, I would take two approaches. First, I would sit down with my son and his paper and read through it carefully. Does he offer sufficient support (drawn directly from the text) for his argument? Are his suggestions general (yours were, in your post here, but that could certainly be because you were summarizing for our benefit), or does he really provide true textual support for his arguments? Can the paper be improved upon by making more detailed and coherent arguments? Did he consider the quote from which the title was taken ("the best laid plans of mice and men...") and how that fits with his interpretation of "mice" and "men"? Do his arguments still hold up?

 

And second, I would ask the instructor for more detail as well. I would *not* be a "mother bear" in this case. I think that would be a mistake. But I would say, "Can you give us more information about what you felt was lacking in ds' paper and how you would have preferred he approach the assignment? What can he do differently in the future with regards to papers for your class?" At the least, you'll get information about how he can get a better grade on his next paper from this particular teacher. At best, he will learn good lessons about how to deal with a difficult teacher, and perhaps even learn something about how to be a better writer (maybe, lol)...

[lionfamily1999]

I'm coming into the conversation rather late. I wanted to say though that I think Charles Wallace (and how could one not be inclined to love a poster with that name already!) ...

NOW I realize why that name seemed so familiar!

 

Oh, L'Engle... What a good name :)

[Chris in VA]

(Just a little, fwiw, sticking-my-nose-in-it...--You can rest assured that Charles Wallace knows what *she* is talking about. Anyone familiar with Mental Multivitamin? :D)

[Caitilin]

That's Charles Wallace?? :D:D Color me thrilled. :D:D

[abbeyej]

(Just a little, fwiw, sticking-my-nose-in-it...--You can rest assured that Charles Wallace knows what *she* is talking about. Anyone familiar with Mental Multivitamin? :D)

 

Are you confusing Charles with Henry, perhaps?

[tex-mex]

OFF TOPIC: Mrs. Mungo,

May I just say that I absolutely love your signature quotes *every*single*time* I see them. Hilarious! :D Thanks for the much needed giggles!

Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

:iagree: My son giggles when he sees her siggy line -- he loves it! (MEOW)

[Charles Wallace]

As much as I would love to bask in praise, I actually have to earn it first! I have to admit, I am actually not the author of Mental Multivitamin (although that's a cool title). I take it that it's a blog? I'm glad folks enjoy it -- and now I have to check it out too.:D Nope, just a Madeleine L'Engle fan!!

 

Reporting back: I can see why you would (flatteringly!) assign me authorship of MM -- she and I have many overlapping interests!

Edited January 26, 2010 by Charles Wallace

[Holly IN]

And to be fair, my post actually agreed with CW's in that I stated the argument and its points must be well supported with quotes from the text. Background information also goes far. Did your son use the Robert Burns poem as part of his evidence? It is common knowledge that the Burns poem was the inspiration for the title. Quoting the poem and lining up the story with the poem are important elements in arguing this point. You can't just say "this is what I think," you must explain why in detail.

 

Ok

 

Here is the rub:

 

She never ever mentioned the poem not even after the report was due. He did back up his reasoning with examples. (great examples) She marked it in read and stated " not accurate" and "I do not agree with you on your opinion on this book".

 

She never gave any background on this book. DS said in class all they did was put the book down while he defended the book. (this was after the report was due)

 

I will take Charles Wallace advice for the next paper and see what happens. :001_smile:

 

Holly

[Mrs Mungo]

Ok

 

Here is the rub:

 

She never ever mentioned the poem not even after the report was due. He did back up his reasoning with examples. (great examples) She marked it in read and stated " not accurate" and "I do not agree with you on your opinion on this book".

 

She never gave any background on this book. DS said in class all they did was put the book down while he defended the book. (this was after the report was due)

 

 

There are a couple of issues here.

 

First, this isn't a literature class, correct? It's a worldview class. If it's a class that uses TJ Education (it sounds like it but maybe it doesn't), then I wouldn't expect any literary interpretation. I would expect a "this book is bad because it has bad language, lying, murder" or "this book is good and holy."

 

Second, even Wikipedia has enough information on the book to tell where the title comes from. This is the sort of thing that he could certainly look up before his discussion class. If they are actually discussing literary topics...which it doesn't sound like they are.

 

Because they are looking at "worldview" instead of working on literary interpretation, I would have a meeting with the teacher to find out what her expectations were for the students. The teacher isn't doing her job if she isn't letting them know what is expected and gave no comments other than "I disagree."

[Holly IN]

 

First, this isn't a literature class, correct? It's a worldview class. If it's a class that uses TJ Education (it sounds like it but maybe it doesn't), then I wouldn't expect any literary interpretation. I would expect a "this book is bad because it has bad language, lying, murder" or "this book is good and holy." 

 

 

 

It is a worldview class but there is a credit for Literature. The breakdown is: 2 credits for Bible/Worldview, 1 credit for literature and 1 credit for composition.

 

 

Second, even Wikipedia has enough information on the book to tell where the title comes from. This is the sort of thing that he could certainly look up before his discussion class. If they are actually discussing literary topics...which it doesn't sound like they are. 

 

 

We will do this next time. I do not believe they are doing a literary topics like SWB or TOG does. Which is disappointing to me because I have been scaling TOG literature back to accomodate the worldview literature readings.

 

 

 

Because they are looking at "worldview" instead of working on literary interpretation, I would have a meeting with the teacher to find out what her expectations were for the students. The teacher isn't doing her job if she isn't letting them know what is expected and gave no comments other than "I disagree

."

 

This is what I need to find out.

 

I am not sure if this is a TJ education. I do not agree with TJ education (some points are good and I have taken those points but threw the rest out of the window). My son has been asking her what her expectations are. She changes her story every single time so he is frustrated with the answers he is given. He really doesn't want me to talk to the teacher. He wants to handle it himself. (this is a maturity issue and he is showing maturity in this but I really want him to let me talk to her. :( )

 

Thanks!!

 

Holly

 

(I hope I did the quotes correctly).... Sorry if this didn't turn out the way I want to. Ok I guess I didn't do this right. I do not know how to do multiple quotes so hopefully you can read this.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Holly IN
sorry for not knowing how to do the quotes.

[forty-two]

First, this isn't a literature class, correct? It's a worldview class. If it's a class that uses TJ Education (it sounds like it but maybe it doesn't), then I wouldn't expect any literary interpretation. I would expect a "this book is bad because it has bad language, lying, murder" or "this book is good and holy."

 

As someone who is trying to do an intro to worldviews type class (for families, using children's movies), I completely disagree that you can somehow analyze the worldview(s) presented in a literary work without *first* doing some literary analysis to figure out what those worldviews *are* in the first place. I would throw a giant hissyfit if the level of analysis in a high school worldviews class was on the level of "this book is bad because it has bad language, lying, murder" or "this book is good and holy" (not that the pp was saying this was a good thing).

 

(That's really all TJEd calls for? I thought it had higher standards than that.:confused:)

 

And while I think it would be legit to count off for insufficient proof, I would expect the comments to be along the line of "you offered no proof for your assertion xyz" or "your cited fact abc doesn't prove your assertion xyz" - NOT "I don't agree with your opinion". It would have been helpful if she had elaborated on "not accurate" - stated what would have been accurate, or what made it inaccurate, something of that sort. Does your ds have any idea what was inaccurate about the cited statement?

[Charles Wallace]

As someone who is trying to do an intro to worldviews type class (for families, using children's movies), I completely disagree that you can somehow analyze the worldview(s) presented in a literary work without *first* doing some literary analysis to figure out what those worldviews *are* in the first place. I would throw a giant hissyfit if the level of analysis in a high school worldviews class was on the level of "this book is bad because it has bad language, lying, murder" or "this book is good and holy" (not that the pp was saying this was a good thing).

 

(That's really all TJEd calls for? I thought it had higher standards than that.:confused:)

 

And while I think it would be legit to count off for insufficient proof, I would expect the comments to be along the line of "you offered no proof for your assertion xyz" or "your cited fact abc doesn't prove your assertion xyz" - NOT "I don't agree with your opinion". It would have been helpful if she had elaborated on "not accurate" - stated what would have been accurate, or what made it inaccurate, something of that sort. Does your ds have any idea what was inaccurate about the cited statement?

 

I have to claim total ignorance here, and maybe someone can enlighten me? Is Mrs. Mungo's characterization of a worldview class fairly on the money -- that is (to paraphrase Mrs. M.), "This book is evil/this book is good and holy"? At the risk of giving offense I don't intend, I guess I'm wondering what the purpose would be in taking a class of this nature. Is it to question in what way or how a book is evil and/or good? Is it to compare one's own worldview (whatever that is) with the worldview of other authors?

[Mrs Mungo]

I have to claim total ignorance here, and maybe someone can enlighten me? Is Mrs. Mungo's characterization of a worldview class fairly on the money -- that is (to paraphrase Mrs. M.), "This book is evil/this book is good and holy"? At the risk of giving offense I don't intend, I guess I'm wondering what the purpose would be in taking a class of this nature. Is it to question in what way or how a book is evil and/or good? Is it to compare one's own worldview (whatever that is) with the worldview of other authors?

 

I don't think all worldview classes are like this but some definitely are. And yes, I think the point is to compare the worldview of the author and accept or reject what the author has to say based on his/her worldview.

[Nan in Mass]

Did you used to post on the old board? We used to have someone named mental multivitamin.