Circumcision: a straightforward question, NOT a debate

[Sputterduck]

I never touched it.

 

How did it have retraction issues then? It's normal to not retract ever before 11.

[justamouse]

He kept getting infections -the tip of his penis would blow up like a balloon and they had to try and clean it out. It was horrible. And my Dr was Greek and knew how non circed boys went. He was the one to insist.

 

I understand why parents don't circ, I was there, I made that same decision. I also now know that the decision to circ is not the end of the world, and for some people it's the right one. After reading some of this thread I'm sorry I even commented.

[Sputterduck]

He kept getting infections -the tip of his penis would blow up like a balloon and they had to try and clean it out. It was horrible. And my Dr was Greek and knew how non circed boys went. He was the one to insist.

 

I understand why parents don't circ, I was there, I made that same decision. I also now know that the decision to circ is not the end of the world, and for some people it's the right one. After reading some of this thread I'm sorry I even commented.

 

Ouch. What all was tried before that, if you don't mind me asking?

[justamouse]

It was 19 years ago, I don't really remember all of the details that lead up to it.

[lionfamily1999]

Just curious what you meant... This is what I read...

 

The reduction in the rates males contracting HIV is not disputed. From your Google search:

 

"Trials in Africa, where there are several countries with severe AIDS and HIV epidemics, have shown that male circumcision reduced HIV infection risk by 50 per cent in heterosexual men who were at high risk of infection from women with HIV."

 

There is a suggestion that women are not protected by male partners (who have HIV) being circumcised.

 

Anti-circers argue that the far less than complete elimination of risk afforded by circumcision will cause men not to use condoms, thinking they are "protected" completely. I'd rather give a child an education and the risk-reduction.

 

Bill

Why don't you consider that the people who go in for circumcision are taught good hygiene and safe sex practices and the others aren't? The biggest problem in countries where STD's are rife, is lack of education, second is lack of condoms, 3rd is outdated rituals and practices that are unsafe (for example: the belief that having sex with a virgin will cure HIV). Why is it that people are so quick to take statistics at face value without stopping to think about ALL the variables?

 

The only medical benefit to chopping off a foreskin is that you can't get a disease in the foreskin. Well if we were to follow that logic... you know the rest.

 

Why don't I?

 

Are you arguing that males who've been circumcised are well-educated and clean, and the uncircumcised are dirty and ignorant? Because I don't think that's the case.

 

Bill

 

WOW! No I didn't say any such thing. I said that in poorer countries, the people who get circumcised are the ones who are more likely to have access to education regarding safe sex practices. The poorer people don't have access to tools and resources to perform circumcision or be educated about safe sex.

In summation, Bill said, studies show blah blah blah. Tofuscramble replied, you didn't take into account that circumsized people are taught about hygeine yada yada yada. Bill says, are you implying uncirced people are dirty an ill-educated. Tofuscramble says, you twisted my words! I said they are better educated.

Right, they are going in as an adult to have a procedure on a sex organ that is meant to help in the area of STD's and infections, so it makes sense that more information would be made available to him.

No, (wow, there is so much word twisting in this thread) I'm actually referring to families and people who have it done to their children at birth. These same people also generally have better living conditions, better medical care AND better education. Of course there is going to be a lower rate of STD's among these people.

Carmen says, I agree, circed people would be given the education about hygeine yada yada yada. Tofuscramble says, why are you twisting my words again?!? Circed people have better living conditions, medical care, and a better education.

 

 

 

I don't think you could call the studies wrong based on the ideas of better education etc., without implying that uncirced is not as well educated, thus less clean. From what I've read here (and the mothers that are chiming in about their own dss) I'd say the uncirced population is pretty well educated. Perhaps, if we're sticking with the studies in Africa then a better idea would be that those that were circed were exposed and accepted Western culture (if it's still okay to use that word). That's still a minefield and a half (what Eastern culture is so bad?!?)...

 

For what it's worth, I agree with Carmen and (shocker) Bill.

[tofuscramble]

Just curious what you meant... This is what I read...

 

 

In summation, Bill said, studies show blah blah blah. Tofuscramble replied, you didn't take into account that circumsized people are taught about hygeine yada yada yada. Bill says, are you implying uncirced people are dirty an ill-educated. Tofuscramble says, you twisted my words! I said they are better educated.

 

Carmen says, I agree, circed people would be given the education about hygeine yada yada yada. Tofuscramble says, why are you twisting my words again?!? Circed people have better living conditions, medical care, and a better education.

 

 

 

I don't think you could call the studies wrong based on the ideas of better education etc., without implying that uncirced is not as well educated, thus less clean. From what I've read here (and the mothers that are chiming in about their own dss) I'd say the uncirced population is pretty well educated. Perhaps, if we're sticking with the studies in Africa then a better idea would be that those that were circed were exposed and accepted Western culture (if it's still okay to use that word). That's still a minefield and a half (what Eastern culture is so bad?!?)...

 

For what it's worth, I agree with Carmen and (shocker) Bill.

 

Yes, I am purely talking about poor countries and specifically the data taken from Africa. I'm saying that many of the people who have access to circumcision as an option (ie: medical care) are more likely to also have access to good education in Africa. That is not to say that all people who are uncircumcised are poor and ignorant.

 

Access to medical care + Access to education != All intact people are dumb and ignorant.

 

I'm also not calling anyone ignorant as Bill tried to say and I'm not saying that people who are circed in Africa are older and getting the procedure because its safer, as Carmen tried to say. I didn't say either of those things, they were absolutely twisting my words.

 

Our society is different. I would assert that in America, people who don't circ are MORE likely to be read up on circumcision, because they are the ones going against the norm. Most people just go with it and accept that its the done thing.

Edited January 14, 2010 by tofuscramble

[Slartibartfast]

Yes, I am purely talking about poor countries and specifically the data taken from Africa. I'm saying that many of the people who have access to circumcision as an option (ie: medical care) are more likely to also have access to good education in Africa. That is not to say that all people who are uncircumcised are poor and ignorant.

 

Before they started on the circ clinics a lot of the circed people in Africa were for religious reasons. Muslims circ.

[tofuscramble]

Before they started on the circ clinics a lot of the circed people in Africa were for religious reasons. Muslims circ.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what your point is with this comment. Do you mind elaborating?

[nmoira]

 

About circ vs. incirc. The conclusion is that circ have more personality. So is it 'ick' or 'just lacking in personality.'

LOL. I haven't seen that episode, but just might seek it out after reading through this thread.

[Slartibartfast]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what your point is with this comment. Do you mind elaborating?

 

I am saying there are other reasons than just education. :)

 

Wasn't part of that discussion that they would also be more likely to practice safe sex because they are more educated? Another aspect is they are less likely to be promiscuous because they are religious.

 

Many missionaries circumcise the babies. Heck that football player? He was talking about performing circumcisions.

 

That was my point. :)

Edited January 14, 2010 by Sis

[tofuscramble]

I am saying there are other reasons than just education. :)

 

Religious beliefs and good education are not mutually exclusive. The two can and do coexist in perfect harmony. :)

[Slartibartfast]

Religious beliefs and good education are not mutually exclusive. The two can and do coexist in perfect harmony. :)

 

I was saying "in addition to..." not disagreeing. :)

[tofuscramble]

I am saying there are other reasons than just education. :)

 

Wasn't part of that discussion that they would also be more likely to practice safe sex because they are more educated? Another aspect is they are less likely to be promiscuous because they are religious.

 

Many missionaries circumcise the babies. Heck that football player? He was talking about performing circumcisions.

 

That was my point. :)

 

Ahh, now I understand what you mean. Thanks or the elaboration.

[Lovedtodeath]

hmmm.... we seem to be a bit snippy again.

[Joanne]

hmmm.... we seem to be a bit snippy again.

 

Pun intended? :D:lol::tongue_smilie:

[nmoira]

 

Pun intended? :D:lol::tongue_smilie:

I hope so, types the woman who just had to clean tea off her monitor.

 

[Slartibartfast]

hmmm.... we seem to be a bit snippy again.

 

Hee!

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you, thank you, I will be here all night.

[tofuscramble]

Thank you, thank you, I will be here all night.

:001_smile:

[lionfamily1999]

Yes, I am purely talking about poor countries and specifically the data taken from Africa. I'm saying that many of the people who have access to circumcision as an option (ie: medical care) are more likely to also have access to good education in Africa. That is not to say that all people who are uncircumcised are poor and ignorant.

 

Access to medical care + Access to education != All intact people are dumb and ignorant.

 

I'm also not calling anyone ignorant as Bill tried to say and I'm not saying that people who are circed in Africa are older and getting the procedure because its safer, as Carmen tried to say. I didn't say either of those things, they were absolutely twisting my words.

 

Our society is different. I would assert that in America, people who don't circ are MORE likely to be read up on circumcision, because they are the ones going against the norm. Most people just go with it and accept that its the done thing.

Ah.

hmmm.... we seem to be a bit snippy again.

:lol:

Thank you, thank you, I will be here all night.

But where were you this morning when I couldn't break into the hive?!?

[Lovedtodeath]

Sleeping. I have to do it sometime.:tongue_smilie:

[lionfamily1999]

Sleeping. I have to do it sometime.:tongue_smilie:

This is where I stomp around and pout, right?

[LBS]

including this decision. After all the heavy research, discussion and debate, it seemed to come down to a couple of smaller issues: 1. that my sons were most likely to only see other circumcised males in the locker room and family. 2. My goofy, Birkenstock-wearing, "you can deliver the babies standing on your head if you want to" (in the hospital) OB, agreed to do the circs, and nurses all told me he was sweet, gentle, and concerned. He did not strap his babies down, but had nurses help him. He used topical anesthesia (needle anesthesia was too much, he said) , and the ring thing. He carried them right down the hall to me, in about 60 seconds, so I could comfort my babies. My pediatricians were fine and respectful of him doing it, nobody cared of the proprieties of his doing surgery on a patient who was not his after the birth was accomplished. I vaguely remember there being some hospital issue, but he bypassed it.

 

My father, brothers, seven nephews, husband are all circumcised....only father in law is not, and he's so prissy my sons would never see him naked. His own son, my husband, can't remember seeing him at all. My mother in law mentioned that un-circ men pride themselves on having greater sensitivity with a protected penis, but, good heavens, those things are sensitive enough, who wants them to have a hair trigger? Oops, did I get controversial? Didn't mean to. But I have never even seen a non-circ penis except in a Playgirl in my early 20s and an art class....they just didn't look as pretty as a circ'd one. Different drummers......(saying "different strokes" seems the obvious comment, but it seemed to border on crude so I restrained myself. Sort of.)

 

LBS

 

PS I do remember using huge quantities of vaseline to protect the newly exposed little head, on nephews and sons, so no irritation ever got to them. Maybe it was nephews who had rings, and not mine, not sure now.

Edited January 14, 2010 by LBS
added PS

[Slartibartfast]

My mother in law mentioned that un-circ men pride themselves on having greater sensitivity with a protected penis, but, good heavens, those things are sensitive enough, who wants them to have a hair trigger? Oops, did I get controversial? Didn't mean to.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone said anything about a hair trigger. It isn't the same as sensitivity.

 

There are plenty of studies indicating that circumcision can reduce sensitivity but there is not a study that shows anything for certain in regard to satisfaction, much less satisfaction on the part of the woman. That is so subjective. :lol:

Edited January 14, 2010 by Sis

[Sputterduck]

including this decision. After all the heavy research, discussion and debate, it seemed to come down to a couple of smaller issues: 1. that my sons were most likely to only see other circumcised males in the locker room and family. 2. My goofy, Birkenstock-wearing, "you can deliver the babies standing on your head if you want to" (in the hospital) OB, agreed to do the circs, and nurses all told me he was sweet, gentle, and concerned. He did not strap his babies down, but had nurses help him. He used topical anesthesia (needle anesthesia was too much, he said) , and the ring thing. He carried them right down the hall to me, in about 60 seconds, so I could comfort my babies. My pediatricians were fine and respectful of him doing it, nobody cared of the proprieties of his doing surgery on a patient who was not his after the birth was accomplished. I vaguely remember there being some hospital issue, but he bypassed it.

 

My father, brothers, seven nephews, husband are all circumcised....only father in law is not, and he's so prissy my sons would never see him naked. His own son, my husband, can't remember seeing him at all. My mother in law mentioned that un-circ men pride themselves on having greater sensitivity with a protected penis, but, good heavens, those things are sensitive enough, who wants them to have a hair trigger? Oops, did I get controversial? Didn't mean to. But I have never even seen a non-circ penis except in a Playgirl in my early 20s and an art class....they just didn't look as pretty as a circ'd one. Different drummers......(saying "different strokes" seems the obvious comment, but it seemed to border on crude so I restrained myself. Sort of.)

 

LBS

 

PS I do remember using huge quantities of vaseline to protect the newly exposed little head, on nephews and sons, so no irritation ever got to them. Maybe it was nephews who had rings, and not mine, not sure now.

 

I'm curious. How long was the topical anesthesia on your son before cutting?

[nmoira]

 

I don't think anyone said anything about a hair trigger. It isn't the same as sensitivity.

I think it's best described as a greater range of sensation as opposed to a greater degree of the most intense stimulation. Yes, the foreskin is more sensitive to light touch than the underlying shaft, but according to my study of intact men (sample size = 1) the type of sensation experienced is not the super intense sort that hastens the bringing of the festivities to a close, so to speak. Edited January 14, 2010 by nmoira
clarity

[LBS]

I have done no research at all concerning un-circ men, so cannot speak with any knowlege, and the "hair-trigger" comment was my 79 year old mother in law's. She is pretty free speaking but did not tell me about her exact experiences, and I am sure never did any comparitive studies....so would not know if the "deal closer/festivities ending" was sooner or later, vs. a man who had been circ.

 

And you know, the "mine is more sensitive" may be a locker room chat kind of thing. Interesting to ponder, but too much info for me, since the only one I'm likely to see outside of a chance diaper environment, will be circ'd.

 

As nmoira is so kind to illustrate, its more complex, different sensations. I guess, when my mil and I were discussing this it was in relation to what I was doing with my own sons, and she waited for days to correct my assumption that my fil was circumcised....but he was born at home, the youngest of five, and was never in the military. He has a buddy who is his age, who was required to get circ'd in the 40's cause he was in the military, and was, supposedly, traumatized by that. She and I were probably laughing about sensitivity in relation to teenagers, but I don't remember the exact discussion, and it was not part of my decision making process, I just was letting her know what we were doing.

 

Sputterduck, I'm sorry, I don't think I was told how long the anethesia was applied before the actual incision....I forgot if I was....I asked my trusted OB if I should be in the room, in order to immediately comfort the baby, or should I wait in the hall or what...he said he would get the baby right down the hall to me....he did not even properly diaper him, but one baby boy had a diaper kinda wrapped hastily around him and the other was swaddled up with a receiving blanket, with tiny amt of blood on it...I think he came down the hall carrying the older of my boys (not the younger) and I can't remember about the younger now. Younger baby was so bruised from birth that he was purple and nurses kept snatching him up to resusitate him, before seeing he was just bruised. Nurses were flustered that doc carried baby down the hall instead of putting him in one of those cabbage bins on wheels. Both babies were crying, but not gasping or choking from upset....I just wanted to comfort asap, and had them nursing in 2 seconds....I wish I could remember about the anesthesia, but the less invasive topical seemed better than a needle....I guess it seemed the right thing to do at that time, and I had talked to doc ahead of time.

 

 

LBS

Edited January 17, 2010 by LBS
remembered more, I think