Circumcision: a straightforward question, NOT a debate

[Peek a Boo]

And emotion is a bad thing how? A part of one of the most sensitive and personal parts of one's body is being removed. It is what it is. *shrug*

meh. emotion's fine. the anti-abortion crowd uses it all the time when referring to ripping humans in utero limb from limb. Hey-- they have to reassemble the body parts to make sure they got all the developing human. *shrug* indeed.

 

Um, no. I'm sorry, but this is not fact. And I would hope that no one is depending on being circumcised to protect themselves from STDs. That is just playing with fire. Regardless of circ. status, men should have enough knowledge to use other means of protection.

 

 

nobody said that circumcision protects against STD's. CURRENT Medical facts show there ARE medical benefits wrt those issues and circumcision though.

[Peek a Boo]

The UTI problems are miniscule and not a good reason (unless you want to apply the same logic to girls, who have much bigger UTI issues, and given your previous posts I'm **** sure you don't) to circumcise.

 

It seems to me that if the risks of having an intact penis are so great, that any man will willingly have one as an adult to circumvent them. So either you think your child will underestimate the risks, or you think that his penis is not his to decide over.

 

Do we have ANY medical research showing that removing female genitalia can have medical benefits wrt uti? Because we DO have medical research showing benefit wrt uti on men and the penis. Logic relies on facts, not wrong analogies.

 

 

In this discussion, it's not so much that the risks are "so great" but the benefits so easily attained. As a parent, we do have that right to decide for our children whether certain medical procedures are preferable to known risks.

[Joanne]

Facts are facts though. If they look at the statistics and see that circumcised boys are in the minority, they'd have to be pretty block-headed to go on assuming that circumcised boys in their kids' generation are the majority. That's purposeful ignorance. It's not like a man who was circumcised as a baby and saw other boys teased in the locker room as a teen went through some sort of traumatic experience they can't get over. They saw someone else get teased.

 

It's akin to not letting your child wear glasses or braces because someone got teased. It's all painful. But if you *really* care that your boy not get teased, at this point forgo the circumcision.

 

 

This is an example of what I am talking about and what I experienced from staunch "no circ" types in regard to the male perspective.

 

And watching kids tease other kids *is* a traumatic experience. Have you ever been teased for your genitalia specifically or watched other people get teased for theirs? THAT is exactly what my xh (and thousands of others) are lovingly trying to protect their boys from. In this culture, circ is still very normative.

 

And the glasses/braces comparison is a red herring to the point I'm making.

[lionfamily1999]

This is an example of what I am talking about and what I experienced from staunch "no circ" types in regard to the male perspective.

 

And watching kids tease other kids *is* a traumatic experience. Have you ever been teased for your genitalia specifically or watched other people get teased for theirs? THAT is exactly what my xh (and thousands of others) are lovingly trying to protect their boys from. In this culture, circ is still very normative.

 

And the glasses/braces comparison is a red herring to the point I'm making.

I think for most women the equivalent is weight or breast size. I knew girls that were teased for having misshapen or uneven chest growth. I also know one girl whose daughter (now 13) is experiencing the same issue. The mother is doing everything she can to find a doctor willing to do ongoing implantation to keep her duaghter appearing even. For her, the physical pain far outshadows the emotional anguish. I was chubby in school and it's very very hard not to try to control dds eating and excercise to try and keep her out of the teasing camp.

 

Thinking of it that way, (not you, Joanne, but those that disagree or discount the man's perspective), do you think it's wrong for a mother to do whatever she can to keep her daughters from suffering the same problems they, or others they knew in school, faced? I mean, a man's penis is easily equivical (in the emotional weight it carries) as a woman's weight or breasts. I know many women that go out of their way to protect their dds from their early/late blooming.

[Sputterduck]

This is an example of what I am talking about and what I experienced from staunch "no circ" types in regard to the male perspective.

 

And watching kids tease other kids *is* a traumatic experience. Have you ever been teased for your genitalia specifically or watched other people get teased for theirs? THAT is exactly what my xh (and thousands of others) are lovingly trying to protect their boys from. In this culture, circ is still very normative.

 

And the glasses/braces comparison is a red herring to the point I'm making.

 

What doesn't make sense to me is that circumcising their child at this point is more likely to put them in the minority. So if teasing really is the issue, they won't do it!

[tofuscramble]

My sons are all intact. I really hate the idea of circumcision.

[Slartibartfast]

When I was researching the issue, my mothering peer group were a bunch of crunchy types, often uber crunchy. Some so stalwart that they'd divorce before having a son their spouse wanted to circ. I heard a LOT of how immature my (then) DH was for worrying about the locker room experience, how wanting his son to look like him was selfish, how his experience wasn't valid, how it needed to be discounted in light of actual medical info.

 

One thing the uber-radical-crunchy crowd often does on this issue is ignore that the men who are offering an opinion are offering a *valid* life experience of having grown up in a culture that practices routine infant circ. Not only are the locker room experiences real, so are their perceptions of medical issues! I'm not saying that the medical issues are real, but having heard them for years and from authority, coupled with the social reality, I *get* why Dads of today want their sons circed.

 

Lord knows I don't defend my xh.:lol: But that experience taught me a LOT about this issue and I do think in this regard, xh was (in part) coming from a real place in his heart as a man that needed to be considered, not disregarded.

 

But as a parent I want to END unhealthy cycles, not perpetuate them.

 

I make a lot of different choices than my parents did or dh's parents did. Our parents didn't have the internet and millions of people to learn about issues from or articles at the touch of a button. They HAD to listen to their Drs, parents and people in their circle.

 

Parents today are better informed, have better tools and more options than ever before. That is great! We are incredibly fortunate.

 

I am not uber-radical-crunchy. I just believe in ending cycles. My husband was circed but my son is not. If I had left it up to my husband without any research at all my child would probably have been circed but that just isn't how I function. My husband did want my son circed I gave him all the information and my husband agreed that there, "wasn't a good reason to do it."

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sis

[Peek a Boo]

But as a parent I want to END unhealthy cycles, not perpetuate them.

 

 

but circumcising an infant male isn't necessarily an "unhealthy" thing. especially with all the medical information we DO know. that organizations "don't recommend it" is a far cry from "consider it unhealthy"

[Slartibartfast]

but circumcising an infant male isn't necessarily an "unhealthy" thing. especially with all the medical information we DO know. that organizations "don't recommend it" is a far cry from "consider it unhealthy"

 

I also do not bind my daughter's feet or wear a corset.

 

It is a religious covenant. I am not Muslim or Jewish so I choose not to allow body modifications to my child's body unnecessarily without their consent. I also do not put coils around my child's neck, bind their craniums or tattoo their eyeballs.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sis

[SonshineLearner]

I also do not bind my daughter's feet or wear a corset.

 

It is a religious covenant. I am not Muslim or Jewish so I choose not to allow body modifications to my child's body unnecessarily without their consent.

 

Ok.... I ALMOST think that circ'ing should be outlawed, except for religious reasons. BUT, I find it very different than binding feet... or wearing a corset.

 

I think that this two examples given are extreme. While cutting off my son's skin wasn't something I chose, or my husband demanded, I would have had it done... had my husband had it on his list of "non-negotiable", and should he have fulfilled my requirements to have it done. (watch one before, be there with son while having it done.... and a long cut...)

 

I would NEVER let my daughter's feet be bound... wear a corset, or have other parts of her body altered... (except for her choosing ear piercing)

 

No one is circ'ing to be mean. I find it like vaccinating or doing anything that I don't agree with. As long as it's done with thought and information... Parent's want the best for their children and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

:-)

[Slartibartfast]

Ok.... I ALMOST think that circ'ing should be outlawed, except for religious reasons. BUT, I find it very different than binding feet... or wearing a corset.

 

I think that this two examples given are extreme. While cutting off my son's skin wasn't something I chose, or my husband demanded, I would have had it done... had my husband had it on his list of "non-negotiable", and should he have fulfilled my requirements to have it done. (watch one before, be there with son while having it done.... and a long cut...)

 

I would NEVER let my daughter's feet be bound... wear a corset, or have other parts of her body altered... (except for her choosing ear piercing)

 

No one is circ'ing to be mean. I find it like vaccinating or doing anything that I don't agree with. As long as it's done with thought and information... Parent's want the best for their children and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

:-)

 

Oh I agree. No one is doing it to be mean, they are trying to make the right choices, same as any of us are.

 

There are "some" medical benefits to other types of body modifications as well. No medical organization has seen any medical risks with the practice of elongation the neck with coils. But no one recommends elongating the neck with coils.

 

Parents who bound their daughter's feet were also not doing it to be mean, they were trying to help their daughters fit within the definition of beauty at that time. No one would bind feet now (I think it is illegal here??) but would we have bound their feet "then" when it was in vogue?

 

That sounds nastier than I mean it to, I am just trying to point out cultural aspects of body modifications and how different things have been done with perfectly good intentions.

 

I agree it is a bit different than binding the feet or corsets because those are things that require it to be done for years, not a quick moment. But I do think boys should have the same rights as girls in regard to medical choices and their bodies.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sis

[Sputterduck]

Ok.... I ALMOST think that circ'ing should be outlawed, except for religious reasons. BUT, I find it very different than binding feet... or wearing a corset.

 

I think that this two examples given are extreme. While cutting off my son's skin wasn't something I chose, or my husband demanded, I would have had it done... had my husband had it on his list of "non-negotiable", and should he have fulfilled my requirements to have it done. (watch one before, be there with son while having it done.... and a long cut...)

 

I would NEVER let my daughter's feet be bound... wear a corset, or have other parts of her body altered... (except for her choosing ear piercing)

 

No one is circ'ing to be mean. I find it like vaccinating or doing anything that I don't agree with. As long as it's done with thought and information... Parent's want the best for their children and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

:-)

 

If it was the cultural norm, you probably would wear a corset or bind your daughter's feet. And there would be teasing if you didn't.

[stripe]

Pain-free is not always simple. There are risks involved with anesthesia as well, and we really don't know the long-term impact (if any) of pain medication injected into the bloodstream of a newborn baby.

That's an interesting point, especially since at least some mothers who pursue natural childbirth do so because they think there are some dangers / undesirable side effects to some pain medication. In The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth by Henci Goer, she discusses how injecting a local anesthetic in the perineum just prior to delivery often causes swelling which leads to to tearing. So there are issues to consider.

 

I still think a societal adjustment to encourage men and boys to have more privacy would be a good thing. Why are men supposed to be conducting sports interviews with no pants on? It's a bit strange to me.

[Slartibartfast]

I still think a societal adjustment to encourage men and boys to have more privacy would be a good thing. Why are men supposed to be conducting sports interviews with no pants on? It's a bit strange to me.

 

Bleck! I agree!

[Joanne]

But as a parent I want to END unhealthy cycles, not perpetuate them.

 

I make a lot of different choices than my parents did or dh's parents did. Our parents didn't have the internet and millions of people to learn about issues from or articles at the touch of a button. They HAD to listen to their Drs, parents and people in their circle.

 

Parents today are better informed, have better tools and more options than ever before. That is great! We are incredibly fortunate.

 

I am not uber-radical-crunchy. I just believe in ending cycles. My husband was circed but my son is not. If I had left it up to my husband without any research at all my child would probably have been circed but that just isn't how I function. My husband did want my son circed I gave him all the information and my husband agreed that there, "wasn't a good reason to do it."

 

 

I am not defending routine infant circ. I am defending the reality of the adult male's perspective and what shapes their decision. To discard, invalidate and discount their reality as men emerging from the culture of their times does not change the circ culture.

[Slartibartfast]

I am not defending routine infant circ. I am defending the reality of the adult male's perspective and what shapes their decision. To discard, invalidate and discount their reality as men emerging from the culture of their times does not change the circ culture.

 

I don't discard or invalidate anything. I do think there are a lot of ways men can work through that and there are online groups dedicated to that purpose.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sis

[Peek a Boo]

There are "some" medical benefits to other types of body modifications as well. No medical organization has seen any medical risks with the practice of elongation the neck with coils. But no one recommends elongating the neck with coils. .

 

What medical benefits have been associated with coils, corsets, and foot binding?

Edited January 12, 2010 by Peek a Boo

[Slartibartfast]

What medical benefits have been associated with coils, corsets, and foot binding?

 

What medical organization has recommended circumcision?

[Peek a Boo]

What medical organization has recommended circumcision?

none. But there are plenty of current researchers that have documented the medical benefits of circumcision. that they don't consider those medical benefits strong enough to recommend it as an across-the-board practice is a far cry from saying that other body modifications have "no risk."

 

Those who choose to circumcise take those medical benefits into consideration [with other factors], especially since the risk here in a first world country is substantially reduced.

 

so back to my original question:

what medical benefits do coils and foot binding provide?

[Joanne]

I am not uber-radical-crunchy. I just believe in ending cycles. My husband was circed but my son is not. If I had left it up to my husband without any research at all my child would probably have been circed but that just isn't how I function. My husband did want my son circed I gave him all the information and my husband agreed that there, "wasn't a good reason to do it."

__________________

 

 

Sis, this is what I encountered when I was going through it. Many moms whose informed husbands simply agreed and didn't circ. They simply didn't understand

 

1) How I could let it go and have my son circ'ed

2) How my DH (at the time) didn't simply agree with the new, updated information

 

I had many talks with my DH, offered much new information, gave books, sites, statistics. In the end, I realized and admitted that the decision to circ or not sons in a culture where circ is the norm for generations is complicated. My DH (at the time) had a reality of experience in his head as a male growing up that all the info in the world wasn't going to change. I at first, fueled by perspectives not unlike yours, judged him harshly.

 

I later came to see that his fierce defense of circ'ing wasn't immaturity, wasn't superficial. It was a PART of him having grown up where and when he did and it was out of LOVE (as much as he was able but that's another topic) that he wanted his sons safe and not set up for the experience he was sure they'd have.

 

I don't discard or invalidate anything. I do think there are a lot of ways men can work through that and there are online groups dedicated to that purpose.

 

Actually, I do think your posts on this topic invalidate the male experience of growing up in a circ culture. A man whose whole being cries to defend his son over the issue isn't going to seek online support to change his mind or view anti-circ info with critical, unbiased eyes.

[Slartibartfast]

none. But there are plenty of current researchers that have documented the medical benefits of circumcision. that they don't consider those medical benefits strong enough to recommend it as an across-the-board practice is a far cry from saying that other body modifications have "no risk."

 

Those who choose to circumcise take those medical benefits into consideration [with other factors], especially since the risk here in a first world country is substantially reduced.

 

so back to my original question:

what medical benefits do coils and foot binding provide?

 

And those medical organizations have stated that those benefits are not enough to recommend circing.

 

Any "medical" benefits are small and even the American Cancer Society has stated that those benefits are not enough to outweigh the risks.

 

http://www.thaimed.us/long-neck-karen-tribe-thailand-burmese-border-remove-rings/2009/05/02/

 

Initial discomfort is reported after the coils are set, however they seem to pose no problem in later life. Experts assumed that removing the coils would lead to suffocation and death, because the neck muscles would not be strong enough to support the head. But as Zember has proved, the rings can be removed without serious consequences.

 

There are several accounts of why the Padaung practice this custom. Their own mythology tells how the coils will protect them from the bite of a tiger. Others speculate that it is done to to make the women unattractive so they are less likely to be captured by slave traders. However the most common explanation, is the opposite of this – that an extra-long neck is considered a sign of great beauty and wealth and that it will attract a better husband.

 

Which isn't any better or worse of a reason than a locker room.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sis

[Sputterduck]

Joanne, I think it *is* immature to not be able to look past our cultural norms and things we saw growing up, such as seeing others get teased, when making decisions for our kids.

[Peek a Boo]

let's try this again:

YOU made an assertion that I have yet to see you back up:

There are "some" medical benefits to other types of body modifications as well. No medical organization has seen any medical risks with the practice of elongation the neck with coils. But no one recommends elongating the neck with coils.

 

 

We KNOW that there ARE "some" medical benefits w/ circumcision, even if they are "too small to recommend across the board." That is not debatable. And I've already conceded that.

 

I have never heard of any BENEFITS [which is a far cry from "no risk] about neck coils or foot binding, which you claim.

can you clarify your statement, substantiate your statement, or do you need to recant it?

 

remember: we're talking about your statement of

There are "some" medical benefits to other types of body modifications as well.

[Slartibartfast]

 

 

Actually, I do think your posts on this topic invalidate the male experience of growing up in a circ culture. A man whose whole being cries to defend his son over the issue isn't going to seek online support to change his mind or view anti-circ info with critical, unbiased eyes.

 

I understand and I am sorry, that isn't my intention but to me I wouldn't want my son to have those same issues.

 

I think some of those online groups are men? I don't know I haven't joined any of them. It can be difficult to find a way of reason among all of the hysteria, on both sides. We are all trying to make the best decisions we can.

 

I appreciate your comments. :)

[dtb1999]

but circumcising an infant male isn't necessarily an "unhealthy" thing. especially with all the medical information we DO know. that organizations "don't recommend it" is a far cry from "consider it unhealthy"

 

 

I think strapping a tiny baby to a papoose board and removing a functional piece of his genitalia is quite unhealthy, actually. The foreskin is there for a reason. I think that the way our culture views the intact penis is unhealthy. I don't care what organizations consider or recommend, tbh.

[Slartibartfast]

let's try this again:

YOU made an assertion that I have yet to see you back up:

 

 

We KNOW that there ARE "some" medical benefits w/ circumcision, even if they are "too small to recommend across the board." That is not debatable. And I've already conceded that.

 

I have never heard of any BENEFITS [which is a far cry from "no risk] about neck coils or foot binding, which you claim.

can you clarify your statement, substantiate your statement, or do you need to recant it?

 

remember: we're talking about your statement of

There are "some" medical benefits to other types of body modifications as well.

 

Because it is a ridiculous question. What entails a medical benefit?

 

Eyeball tattooing makes eyes less reflective. It makes it easier for people to hide. It is certainly debatable that it would be a medical benefit in some circumstances.

 

I don't actually have a habit of tolerating people shouting at me, if you cannot be rational I am just going to place you back on my ignore list.

[SonshineLearner]

If it was the cultural norm, you probably would wear a corset or bind your daughter's feet. And there would be teasing if you didn't.

 

Nope.. I like walking without pain way too much! I won't even wear heals... You'll see me in comfy shoes wherever I am:-) And no, I wouldn't do the corset thing... although I would make sure my daughter was healthy:-)

 

I don't do things just because of culture... We've come too far....

 

:D

[lionfamily1999]

And those medical organizations have stated that those benefits are not enough to recommend circing.

 

Any "medical" benefits are small and even the American Cancer Society has stated that those benefits are not enough to outweigh the risks.

 

http://www.thaimed.us/long-neck-karen-tribe-thailand-burmese-border-remove-rings/2009/05/02/

 

 

 

 

 

Which isn't any better or worse of a reason than a locker room.

It's still not a medical benefit. Is there any medical benefit to foot binding? Do doctors ever recommend a parent start putting hoops around their kids' necks?

Joanne, I think it *is* immature to not be able to look past our cultural norms and things we saw growing up, such as seeing others get teased, when making decisions for our kids.

Isn't that funny? I always thought that our past was considered "experience" and using it as a way to react to the future was "wise." Learn something new every day ;)

[Heidi]

Saving the world from unnecessary surgical procedures... one foreskin at a time!

 

Seriously? I have an idea. I'm going to turn off my computer and go spend time with my happily circumcised husband :001_smile:

[BMW]

Following all of this, I want to add in that it is a choice. Parents following religious convictions may choose to circ. and in choosing to do so, see to it that they use the most acceptable method... choosing wisely who does the procedure and that the person performing the action does so with the baby's comfort in mind... All arguing aside, doesn't it come down to "IF" this is your choice, see to it that you follow through most responsibly?

 

Can I make that choice and be as careful/wise as possible and not be scorned by someone making a choice not to? Because I can certainly show consideration to your opposing choice and benefit from who you are and what you can teach me... And if parents across the globe each taught this to our children, and our children learned how important it is to treat others respectfully, wouldn't there be less "locker room" drama? Just wondering... Of course I tend to wonder in ideals...

 

When we disagree on issues, both sides are still convinced of their position on the matter. In this case, I have learned a lot and would pass that on to my children for their future choices... Why can't we learn from each other and give each other space on issues where we disagree?

 

And, thanks Peek, I enjoyed your input!

 

The only reason I will hit "submit reply" is that those who oppose my choice to circ. keep stating that since it isn't proven to be beneficial or healthier, it is a wrong choice. (those are my words, nobody elses and it's my interpretation of this conversation) My choice was religious and followed through as responsibly as it could be...

[Ginevra]

Ha, ha, ha, I thought this *wasn't* a debate! :lol::lol::lol:

[aggieamy]

Ha, ha, ha, I thought this *wasn't* a debate! :lol::lol::lol:

 

I had no idea that people cicumcision was such a controversial issue! Whoa. Learn something new on WTM everyday!

[Slartibartfast]

Following all of this, I want to add in that it is a choice. Parents following religious convictions may choose to circ. and in choosing to do so, see to it that they use the most acceptable method... choosing wisely who does the procedure and that the person performing the action does so with the baby's comfort in mind... All arguing aside, doesn't it come down to "IF" this is your choice, see to it that you follow through most responsibly?

 

Can I make that choice and be as careful/wise as possible and not be scorned by someone making a choice not to? Because I can certainly show consideration to your opposing choice and benefit from who you are and what you can teach me... And if parents across the globe each taught this to our children, and our children learned how important it is to treat others respectfully, wouldn't there be less "locker room" drama? Just wondering... Of course I tend to wonder in ideals...

 

When we disagree on issues, both sides are still convinced of their position on the matter. In this case, I have learned a lot and would pass that on to my children for their future choices... Why can't we learn from each other and give each other space on issues where we disagree?

 

And, thanks Peek, I enjoyed your input!

 

The only reason I will hit "submit reply" is that those who oppose my choice to circ. keep stating that since it isn't proven to be beneficial or healthier, it is a wrong choice. (those are my words, nobody elses and it's my interpretation of this conversation) My choice was religious and followed through as responsibly as it could be...

 

I support your right to practice your religion. :001_smile: I didn't see anyone condemn religious circ..I do feel that it is clearly stated that it is a religious covenant. I would not support anything limiting religious circ.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sis

[stripe]

I had my first cavity filled without anesthesia. (The dentist asked if I wanted to cross myself before he began....!)

[Peek a Boo]

Because it is a ridiculous question. What entails a medical benefit?.

 

well, some medical benefits of circumcision include less instances of HPV, including the type that causes cervical cancer. Fewer UTI is another. Easier hygiene is another benefit that is a default.

 

but I agree that claiming there's "some" medical benefit to practices such as neck coiling [and then trying to support your claim by showing "no risk"] is quite the ridiculous assertion.

Eyeball tattooing makes eyes less reflective. It makes it easier for people to hide. It is certainly debatable that it would be a medical benefit in some circumstances.

hm. "easier for some people to hide" doesn't sound like a MEDICAL benefit. you had specifically mentioned neck coiling and foot binding, and I certainly hadn't heard of eyeball tattooing. Do you have any medical research that would bring the supposed [and as yet not even presented] medical benefits of eyeball tattooing into the realm of Scientifically Debatable? Because we DO have medical research showing "some" increased medical benefits wrt circumcision.

I don't actually have a habit of tolerating people shouting at me, if you cannot be rational I am just going to place you back on my ignore list.

go ahead. You made a ridiculous statement that has no basis in fact and ignored a direct question twice. If you put me on ignore you'll just miss out on me pointing out your logical fallacies again: everyone else will see them and know how wrong the statement is.

[Peek a Boo]

Also, circumcisions during Jesus's time removed far less than what's removed today.

 

Eliana-- can you offer any insight to this? I have heard a couple different positions.....

[Nakia]

well, some medical benefits of circumcision include less instances of HPV, including the type that causes cervical cancer.

 

 

I was wondering if you could point me to a link with more information about this part of your post. Thank you.

 

 

 

(Not pointing fingers at anyone): I find it a bit ironic that some people are so much in favor of circ to help prevent HPV, but totally against Guardisil. And before anyone says there are very few risks associated with circs, let me tell you I have seen a circ gone bad, and it is a debilitating handicap with not only physical outcomes, but emotional as well. Just sayin'.

 

ETA: I am not trying to persuade anyone about Guardisil. I have no intention of getting it for my daughters.

[Peek a Boo]

I was wondering if you could point me to a link with more information about this part of your post. Thank you..

 

take your pick from google scholar:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=medical+benefits+of+circumcision&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2001&as_sdtp=on

 

wait a sec: here's one that i modified the search to return only articles published in the last ten years in the medical field:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=medical+benefits+of+circumcision&num=10&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=2000&as_yhi=2010&as_sdt=1&as_subj=bio&as_subj=med&as_sdts=5&btnG=Search+Scholar&hl=en

 

(Not pointing fingers at anyone): I find it a bit ironic that some people are so much in favor of circ to help prevent HPV, but totally against Guardisil. And before anyone says there are very few risks associated with circs, let me tell you I have seen a circ gone bad, and it is a debilitating handicap with not only physical outcomes, but emotional as well. Just sayin.

 

In addition to the reports above, We have centuries of proof that a circumcision does little to affect the ability of a man to function or reproduce. We have NO long term studies about the effect of Gardasil on a woman's reproductive system or future offspring. I'm not seeing the irony.....?

Edited January 13, 2010 by Peek a Boo

[Nakia]

take your pick from google scholar:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=medical+benefits+of+circumcision&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2001&as_sdtp=on

 

wait a sec: here's one that i modified the search to return only articles published in the last ten years in the medical field:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=medical+benefits+of+circumcision&num=10&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=2000&as_yhi=2010&as_sdt=1&as_subj=bio&as_subj=med&as_sdts=5&btnG=Search+Scholar&hl=en

 

 

 

In addition to the reports above, We have centuries of proof that a circumcision does little to affect the ability of a man to function or reproduce. We have NO long term studies about the effect of Gardasil on a woman's reproductive system or future offspring. I'm not seeing the irony.....?

 

Hey, I agree with you about Gardisil. I am not in favor of it. I just think it is ignorant to pretend there are NO risks with a circumcision. Like I said, I saw a circ gone bad, and that little boy will never have a pain-free erection. His life is going to be filled with plastic surgeons, pain, and embarrassment. It is just so important to be informed.

[Peek a Boo]

Hey, I agree with you about Gardisil. I am not in favor of it. I just think it is ignorant to pretend there are NO risks with a circumcision. Like I said, I saw a circ gone bad, and that little boy will never have a pain-free erection. His life is going to be filled with plastic surgeons, pain, and embarrassment. It is just so important to be informed.

 

((I don't recall seeing anyone say there were no risks to a circumcision....))

[Slartibartfast]

well, some medical benefits of circumcision include less instances of HPV, including the type that causes cervical cancer. Fewer UTI is another. Easier hygiene is another benefit that is a default.

 

And every medical organization on the planet still doesn't recommend it. There are plenty of things in this world that have "slight" benefits that are not actually good for us. Maybe there's a snowball's chance in hell of my child getting penile cancer because he isn't circed but the American Cancer Society doesn't think so.

 

I would rather listen to them than get my medical advice on what some idiot twelve year old thinks. If we did that I shudder to think of what sort of credence is being given the comments on youtube. Oh guess what!! I HOMESCHOOL!! My child wouldn't be in gym class with random idiot twelve year old.

 

but I agree that claiming there's "some" medical benefit to practices such as neck coiling [and then trying to support your claim by showing "no risk"] is quite the ridiculous assertion.

I didn't say there was, I said it was debatable. I am actually not an expert in cultural body modifications and mutilations. I am not going to bother researching the subject to fulfill some crazed need for you to nitpick and be nasty.

 

hm. "easier for some people to hide" doesn't sound like a MEDICAL benefit. you had specifically mentioned neck coiling and foot binding, and I certainly hadn't heard of eyeball tattooing. Do you have any medical research that would bring the supposed [and as yet not even presented] medical benefits of eyeball tattooing into the realm of Scientifically Debatable? Because we DO have medical research showing "some" increased medical benefits wrt circumcision.

 

go ahead. You made a ridiculous statement that has no basis in fact and ignored a direct question twice. If you put me on ignore you'll just miss out on me pointing out your logical fallacies again: everyone else will see them and know how wrong the statement is.

You have a long habit of being rude and putting words in mouths. In fact the last time we had this discussion I put you on ignore because you continually insisted I was stating I was anti-religious circ which was a lie.

 

If you want to bait and be nasty feel free. I don't really care what is logical in your world because it clearly lies outside of reality.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Sis

[Homemaker]

Where we live, circumcision is definately the majority. I even asked my nurse when I was having my son and she said it was about 96% are circumcised. All my friends get their boys circumcised. Also, I have changed many diapers working in church nurseries, and babysitting over the years, and I have only seen one uncircumcised boy, so I really don't believe it is taking over as majority.

[Mrs Mungo]

Where we live, circumcision is definately the majority. I even asked my nurse when I was having my son and she said it was about 96% are circumcised. All my friends get their boys circumcised. Also, I have changed many diapers working in church nurseries, and babysitting over the years, and I have only seen one uncircumcised boy, so I really don't believe it is taking over as majority.

 

What percentage of boys are circumcised really depends upon where you live. Some areas of the country are close to half, others still have a vast majority of boys who are circumcised.

 

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/285540/circumcision_rates_fall_in_the_united.html?cat=25

 

Routine infant circumcision has been dropping since the 70's but a new study released says it's at an all time low, according to the Associated Press.

 

The National Health and Life Survey reports that circumcision rates in the United States are now down to 57% among males born. That number is low compared to a whopping 90% circumcision rate in the 1960's. Some states have an even lower amount of routine circumcisions done at the rate of less than 50% of males are circumcised after birth. California has the least amount of newborns circumcised and reported 21% in 2004.

To speak to the thread in general (not just to the poster I quoted :) )They did not circumcise at the hospital where my son was born (in Germany). Doctors there actually do consider it barbaric unless it was medically necessary for some reason.

 

MOST people in the US who circumcise do so because the dad in the family is circumcised, that's the norm and they're going to stick with what they believe to be the norm. In other parts of the world circumcision is only extremely common in Muslim and Jewish communities. That's the bottom line. This is a purely cultural issue and arguing it from any other perspective is just silly.

[Peek a Boo]

I didn't say there was,

actually, you did. I bolded it and made it fairly large, in fact.

 

I said it was debatable.

 

I have not seen one iota of even quasi-debatable medical benefit for neck coiling or foot binding, unlike the iota --and yes,i agree it is an iota-- of proven medical benefit for circumcision.

 

I am actually not an expert in cultural body modifications and mutilations. I am not going to bother researching the subject to fulfill some crazed need for you to nitpick and be nasty.

 

that "crazed need" is the discussing of facts on a, uh, discussion board. I agree that your statements didn't reflect any expertise whatsoever, which is why I asked. There is simply no analogy to be made between male circumcision and the cultural, destructive practices of female genital cutting, foot binding, and neck coiling. i absolutely don't expect you to "bother researching" just to "prove Peek wrong" but you might want to consider it for your own benefit.

You have a long habit of being rude and putting words in mouths. In fact the last time we had this discussion I put you on ignore because you continually insisted I was stating I was anti-religious circ which was a lie.

 

I do have a long history of stating the obvious very boldly, and I do understand that many consider that rude. I find it just as rude to put forth opinion as fact, ignore clear evidence, and then make excuses for why they won't answer a simple question or why they made an inflammatory statement to begin with.

 

but prove it. Link to a post where I said that.

 

I also have a long history of nailing someone's intentions correctly.

[Peek a Boo]

This is a purely cultural issue and arguing it from any other perspective is just silly.

 

if you define "cultural" to reflect known medical benefits and hygiene conditions in some cultures then yeah, I can agree with that.

[Mrs Mungo]

if you define "cultural" to reflect known medical benefits and hygiene conditions in some cultures then yeah, I can agree with that.

 

Are you suggesting boys in the US don't know how to clean themselves properly and should therefore be circumcised?

[Slartibartfast]

actually, you did. I bolded it and made it fairly large, in fact.

 

 

I have not seen one iota of even quasi-debatable medical benefit for neck coiling or foot binding, unlike the iota --and yes,i agree it is an iota-- of proven medical benefit for circumcision.

What is a medical benefit to you? A reduction in tiger bites to the neck?? Making your eyes less reflective so you can hide better?? My point was there there are also random stupid reasons people do all sorts of things but a tiny tiny chance of less penile cancer wasn't any better of a reason to me than being worried about a tiger bite to the neck. :lol:

 

 

that "crazed need" is the discussing of facts on a, uh, discussion board. I agree that your statements didn't reflect any expertise whatsoever, which is why I asked. There is simply no analogy to be made between male circumcision and the cultural, destructive practices of female genital cutting, foot binding, and neck coiling. i absolutely don't expect you to "bother researching" just to "prove Peek wrong" but you might want to consider it for your own benefit.

I don't care, I was being flippant and you are SHOW ME NOW SHOW ME WATCH ME BE COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL!!!

 

I do have a long history of stating the obvious very boldly, and I do understand that many consider that rude. I find it just as rude to put forth opinion as fact, ignore clear evidence, and then make excuses for why they won't answer a simple question or why they made an inflammatory statement to begin with.

 

but prove it. Link to a post where I said that.

 

I also have a long history of nailing someone's intentions correctly.

Is your name SpyCar or Tea Time because that is who is in that post. How many accounts do you have? :lol: Edited January 13, 2010 by Sis

[Slartibartfast]

Are you suggesting boys in the US don't know how to clean themselves properly and should therefore be circumcised?

 

Obviously American boys are DIRTY DIRTY!!

Edited January 13, 2010 by Sis

[Peek a Boo]

Are you suggesting boys in the US don't know how to clean themselves properly and should therefore be circumcised?

 

nope.

I'm stating as a medical fact that circumcision makes hygiene easier, by default.

 

That does NOT mean that uncirc'd boys and men can't or won't clean well, but that it's simply one less thing to clean. Like long hair and short hair: it's plain ol' easier to keep shorter hair clean than longer hair. That doesn't mean all people with long hair [like me] are lice-ridden or nasty, tangled, and filthy, but it simply requires a bit more effort than if i had super short hair.

[Mrs Mungo]

nope.

I'm stating as a medical fact that circumcision makes hygiene easier, by default.

 

That does NOT mean that uncirc'd boys and men can't or won't clean well, but that it's simply one less thing to clean. Like long hair and short hair: it's plain ol' easier to keep shorter hair clean than longer hair. That doesn't mean all people with long hair [like me] are lice-ridden or nasty, tangled, and filthy, but it simply requires a bit more effort than if i had super short hair.

 

In other words, you are doing a lot of talking but not actually saying much.

 

Are you arguing that the slight medical benefits outweigh the slight medical risks or are you just circularly arguing that there is a slight medical benefit which may or may not outweigh the risks and parents should make the decision for themselves, each decision being equally valid?