Circumcision: a straightforward question, NOT a debate

[Spy Car]

I'm sure you noticed all the doctors who told people in this very thread that the baby was only crying because it was cold, or because it didn't like to be held down, or the doctors who refused to allow parents in the room during the procedure. :001_huh:

 

I would have a very low opinion of such physicians.

 

Just as I'd have a low opinion of a dentist who did potentially painful dental work without novocaine (or whatever). But I wouldn't not get a filling because there are bad dentists in the world. Nor would I by-pass the salutary effects of a circumcision because there are some bad physicians.

 

There is no reason for a circumcision to be anything but a simple pain-free procedure. And that's the way it ought to be for those who choose it for their sons.

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

DH took DS in at 8 days old. I originally wanted it done, but chickened out when the time came, so DH took care of it. DH watched it and it looked awful, and initially made him scream, but DS actually stopped crying before they were done, when doc did something with a clamp. He never seemed to be distressed by it after it was done. He did not fall asleep. They did use anesthetic.

[SonshineLearner]

Just remember that you can choose the have a "longer cut" and that's a decent circ still, and also that it only takes one generation... for the father to be able to say, "I'm not circ'd and my son can remain intact... and be just like me."

If I was Jewish, or another religion that demands circ'ing I would... but a really small snip:-) I find no logic in circ'ing just because dad is. Kids don't look like their parents in many ways, and by the time they do... they're old enough to explain. I do understand the health care part. Course, many men have grown old... without being circ'd and not had to be circ'ed in old age. I have a bit of experience with my friend's g-pa who she kinda did "hospice" care for... and I helped just a bit.... His uncirc'ed self was not a concern....

My son has had one infection, solved with 3 days of topical... kinda rubbed in meds... No problem...

:-)

[Lovedtodeath]

No, I'm not familiar with any old beliefs that babies don't feel pain. Such a belief is asinine.

 

That said, a properly performed circumcision with topical followed by local anesthesia is a pain-free procedure. That's the standard of care that should be met.

 

Bill

:iagree:

 

I was one of the babies that they didn't think could feel pain. I can still feel it (emotionally), the jerks. It was a surpressed memory without words, but it is there. (oh, it wasn't a circ. LOL. It was many procedures, one of which was a spinal tap.)

Edited January 12, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

How do you find this out beforehand? Does one solicit details from doctors on what methods they use, for example?

Of course. Why wouldn't you?

[Spy Car]

Y'all know Jesus was circumcised?

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

:iagree:

 

I was one of the babies that they didn't think could feel pain. I can still feel it (emotionally), the jerks. (oh, it wasn't a circ. LOL. It was many procedures, one of which was a spinal tap.)

 

Yikes! I'm sorry that happen to you Carmen.

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

Y'all know Jesus was circumcised?

So what kind of parent allows their son to be circumcised?

[Sputterduck]

Y'all know Jesus was circumcised?

 

Bill

 

:tongue_smilie: And he was Jewish, but my son isn't. Paul made it quite clear that Christians aren't under that covenant and also specifically that they don't need to be circumcised.

[Sputterduck]

The thought that a physician might perform a circumcision without anesthesia enrages me. It's not difficult to take proper measures, and not doing so is inexcusable. Grrrr!

 

Bill

 

Many parents don't ask and don't know. I respect you making sure your son got it done well.

[Spy Car]

:tongue_smilie: And he was Jewish, but my son isn't. Paul made it quite clear that Christians aren't under that covenant and also specifically that they don't need to be circumcised.

 

I never liked that Paul/Saul :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

I never liked that Paul/Saul :tongue_smilie:

It wasn't just Paul. The decision was made before he talked about it.

[Spy Car]

Many parents don't ask and don't know. I respect you making sure your son got it done well.

 

I think it's very important for parents to be well-informed, but I still can't imagine how a physician could consider it good practice to do a circumcision without taking full measures to eliminate the potential for pain to an infant no matter how ill-informed a child's parents might be.

 

As far as I'm concerned this would be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

 

Bill

[EthiopianFood]

Y'all know Jesus was circumcised?

 

Bill

 

Was it so he could look like his Dad? :001_huh: :tongue_smilie:

[Spy Car]

It wasn't just Paul. The decision was made before he talked about it.

 

Which decision?

[Spy Car]

Was it so he could look like his Dad? :001_huh: :tongue_smilie:

 

Of course. Everyone know God is circumcised :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

Which decision?

The decision that God's people were not required to be Jews and neither were they required to be circumcised.

[Sputterduck]

Of course. Everyone know God is circumcised :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

 

:lol:

 

I think that ends the debate and the circ side wins. At least for the religious people here.

[EthiopianFood]

Of course. Everyone know God is circumcised :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

But then Jesus didn't get anesthetic, so out of his own trauma, he declared that future Christians didn't need to circ? :D

[Slartibartfast]

Of course. Everyone know God is circumcised :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

:lol:

 

I think that ends the debate and the circ side wins. At least for the religious people here.

Many Christians do not believe in circumcising. :lol:

 

 

God created man in his own image right? If this was so wouldn't man be born without a foreskin? :)

[Veritaserum]

:lol:

 

I think that ends the debate and the circ side wins. At least for the religious people here.

 

Well, not to get into the whole corporeal/non-corporeal issue, but God made man in his own image and men are born with foreskins. ;) Also, circumcisions during Jesus's time removed far less than what's removed today.

 

I've been a Christian my whole life and I didn't know what circumcision was until after I was married. None of the males in my family are circumcised (with no problems) and I was completely horrified when I learned that it's so common, which seems to be a typical reaction to those who don't grow up thinking circumcision is normal. We happen to only have daughters, but we wouldn't circumcise any sons, either.

[SonshineLearner]

Yup.. all the Jewish people get to keep the covenant, and since I'm a bit envious of being a "Chosen People" ... I'll say it's not a bad trade for them. BUT, being a gentile..... I'll do the whole... don't need to be circ'd for my son... And... did you notice that it's been mentioned in this thread that when your circ is done by a Rabbi, that it's less drastic?? than when it's done by a DR.

[Slartibartfast]

Well, not to get into the whole corporeal/non-corporeal issue, but God made man in his own image and men are born with foreskins. ;)

Haha jinx! ;)

[Spy Car]

But then Jesus didn't get anesthetic, so out of his own trauma, he declared that future Christians didn't need to circ? :D

 

He did the whole crucifixion thing without anesthesia too. Tough guy!

 

If Jesus (not Saul) said future Christians didn't need to circumcised, then I missed that passage, but I think not.

 

Bill (who regrets he brought up the topic :tongue_smilie:)

[Sputterduck]

If I ever get crucified, I'm going to request anesthesia...

[Slartibartfast]

He did the whole crucifixion thing without anesthesia too. Tough guy!

 

If Jesus (not Saul) said future Christians didn't need to circumcised, then I missed that passage, but I think not.

 

Bill (who regrets he brought up the topic :tongue_smilie:)

 

He did actually, but that is in the Nag Hammadi text, The Gospel of Thomas

 

(53) His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?"

He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."

 

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sis

[RainbowSprinkles]

I sat with my newborn (1-day-old) nephew because my sister was too chicken to go. It was awful enough that when my own son was born I didn't even consider it. The child was not anesthetized. They stuck a pacifier in his mouth and restrained him in a baby-seat. When they started cutting him, he started to scream. His face turned purple and he couldn't catch his breath from screaming and shrieking. He screamed for another five minutes after it was over. The nurse said he didn't feel a thing, that he was just being fussy because he was restrained.

 

Just say no to ritual infant mutilation.

 

How horrible! Maybe parents should be with their little boys when they get that done....

 

Both my sons are uncircumcised. I don't feel I should decide whether or not they should be or not. When they are old enough and choose to be circumcised for their own personal reasons, they can go ahead and do that. But I don't believe in doing that to a baby.

[EthiopianFood]

He did the whole crucifixion thing without anesthesia too. Tough guy!

 

I think he also said not to crucify your son....

 

If I ever get crucified, I'm going to request anesthesia...

 

If it's a baby though, don't bother, because they can't feel it anyway. ;)

 

Can you joke about religion on this board? I can't tell which side of "the line" I'm on here. LOL

Edited January 12, 2010 by RaeAnne

[RainbowSprinkles]

What do you think it was like for the baby? :confused: Just my .02, but if you (general you) or your dh are so adamant on having your child circumcised, at least be there to comfort your child.

 

:iagree:

[Spy Car]

How horrible! Maybe parents should be with their little boys when they get that done....

 

 

I was. And properly done, there is no pain and no trauma. I know because I witnessed it myself.

 

Both my sons are uncircumcised. I don't feel I should decide whether or not they should be or not. When they are old enough and choose to be circumcised for their own personal reasons, they can go ahead and do that. But I don't believe in doing that to a baby.

 

I'd suggest you don't now the difference between the minor procedure this is in infancy vs the major surgery it is in adulthood, or you'd never suggest such a thing.

 

Bill

Edited January 12, 2010 by Spy Car

[keptwoman]

I'd suggest you don't now the difference between the minor procedure this is in infancy vs the major surgery it is in adulthood, or you'd never suggest such a thing.

 

Bill

But in the end it's still the mans decision isn't it, given it's his member. Sure it's a larger procedure but he can also take larger pain killers, and if he really feels it's that important then I'm sure he'd choose to do it anyway. Surely the owner of the penis should get the right to weigh up the pros and cons before something is chopped off of him?

[Spy Car]

But in the end it's still the mans decision isn't it, given it's his member. Sure it's a larger procedure but he can also take larger pain killers, and if he really feels it's that important then I'm sure he'd choose to do it anyway. Surely the owner of the penis should get the right to weigh up the pros and cons before something is chopped off of him?

 

No. I think that's crazy.

 

Adult circumcision is fraught with risks. And using terms like "chopped off" is just an appeal to emotion.

 

Delaying circumcision also exposes a child to all the retraction issues an uncircumcised boy faces, and the UTI problems. And would likely expose many minors to unnecessary risks of contracting STDs, AIDS, HPV and the like.

 

If a male child is going to be afforded the benefits of a circumcision the only rational time to do the procedure is at birth, barring a medical necessity of an adult circumcision for cause.

 

Bill

[keptwoman]

Delaying circumcision also exposes a child to all the retraction issues an uncircumcised boy faces, and the UTI problems. And would likely expose many minors to unnecessary risks of contracting STDs, AIDS, HPV and the like.

Bill

For retraction to be an "issue" it will have been done before it ought. Retraction is normal and painless and not at all an issue if it's not forceably done before it's ready.

The UTI problems are miniscule and not a good reason (unless you want to apply the same logic to girls, who have much bigger UTI issues, and given your previous posts I'm **** sure you don't) to circumcise.

 

Circumcison as a child is also fraught with risks, the risk of taking too much is a real one and can create a bendy penis. There are a lot of circ complications which an intact child will never deal with.

 

It seems to me that if the risks of having an intact penis are so great, that any man will willingly have one as an adult to circumvent them. So either you think your child will underestimate the risks, or you think that his penis is not his to decide over.

Edited January 12, 2010 by keptwoman

[stripe]

It is your baby, and the procedure is done at YOUR request. It is NOT up to them how it is done. YOU decide. If they refuse, find someone else to do it. I find it outrageously shocking that there are doctors who refuse to allow parents to attend! If it's "not a big deal," then there should be nothing to hide.

I agree that parents should be present, and I don't approve of weirdly secretive doctors dealing with minors. (It's a different matter for major invasive surgery under general anesthesia, for example, open heart surgery, where parents might not be advised to be in the room.) I just wasn't sure if doctors have various techniques they use, but anyway, thank you for the encouragement to open up the discussion.

 

If you would undergo a procedure such as this and expect no pain, or would only put on some topical numbing agent to deal with the pain, then by all means, don't worry about it (general statement, not directed at anyone specific).

I am committed to the use of anesthesia.

 

I wish this thread weren't getting off-track.

[Homemaker]

When my husband was growing up going to camp, there were two brothers that weren't circumsized and the other boys used to call them the "uns". Not saying that is right by any means, but my husband was 100% for circumcision because he know how boys can pick on other boys over that issue.

[Lovedtodeath]

For retraction to be an "issue" it will have been done before it ought. Retraction is normal and painless and not at all an issue if it's not forceably done before it's ready.

The UTI problems are miniscule and not a good reason (unless you want to apply the same logic to girls, who have much bigger UTI issues, and given your previous posts I'm **** sure you don't) to circumcise.

 

Circumcison as a child is also fraught with risks, the risk of taking too much is a real one and can create a bendy penis. There are a lot of circ complications which an intact child will never deal with.

 

It seems to me that if the risks of having an intact penis are so great, that any man will willingly have one as an adult to circumvent them. So either you think your child will underestimate the risks, or you think that his penis is not his to decide over.

It is a very real risk to have an uncirced child in an area where doctors do not know how to treat him. I am assuming that people in other parts of the world do not understand that.

 

And would likely expose many minors to unnecessary risks of contracting STDs, AIDS, HPV and the like.

 

I disagree. Irresponsible sex is what exposes minors to these diseases. Edited January 12, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[stripe]

Not saying that is right by any means, but my husband was 100% for circumcision because he know how boys can pick on other boys over that issue.

I think boys need to keep their clothes on more often. This comment is not about circumcision in particular. Just my opinion.

[dtb1999]

No. I think that's crazy.

 

Adult circumcision is fraught with risks. And using terms like "chopped off" is just an appeal to emotion.

 

 

And emotion is a bad thing how? A part of one of the most sensitive and personal parts of one's body is being removed. It is what it is. *shrug*

 

Delaying circumcision also exposes a child to all the retraction issues an uncircumcised boy faces, and the UTI problems. And would likely expose many minors to unnecessary risks of contracting STDs, AIDS, HPV and the like.

Bill

 

Um, no. I'm sorry, but this is not fact. And I would hope that no one is depending on being circumcised to protect themselves from STDs. That is just playing with fire. Regardless of circ. status, men should have enough knowledge to use other means of protection.

[dtb1999]

When my husband was growing up going to camp, there were two brothers that weren't circumsized and the other boys used to call them the "uns". Not saying that is right by any means, but my husband was 100% for circumcision because he know how boys can pick on other boys over that issue.

 

 

Why were they looking in the 1st place? I can pretty much guarantee you, not many boys are going to want to be called out for checking out another guys member in the locker room. This whole scenario is so played out by pro-circers. It's quite ridiculous, too. :glare:

[Joanne]

When my husband was growing up going to camp, there were two brothers that weren't circumsized and the other boys used to call them the "uns". Not saying that is right by any means, but my husband was 100% for circumcision because he know how boys can pick on other boys over that issue.

 

To be fair and in response to the posters who responded to this, boys take showers at camp and they do "look". They've always looked; they'll continue to look.

 

I do not know how old the poster's DH is, but his perception of the response to intact penis' is probably spot on. Circ has been the expected norm in this culture and boys who were intact were (and still are, to a lesser degree) looked at oddly, teased, etc.

 

When I was researching it 11 years ago for my youngest, my (ex)step son lived with us. I had left a book in the van about circ and he used the van on a night out with his friends. He was quite frankly verbally taunted, provoked and tortured the whole night long by his 16-17 year old peers. This, of course, reinforced my xh's decision to circ.

 

I don't agree with routine infant circ. I don't agree it's of medical necessity in most cases later in life. But, please, don't put down, patronize or discount the social and cultural reality that many of our DH's grew up in and how that shapes their decision on the issue. It's difficult to really comprehend the effect of expected circ on generations.

[ciyates]

 

 

 

I'd suggest you don't now the difference between the minor procedure this is in infancy vs the major surgery it is in adulthood, or you'd never suggest such a thing.

 

Bill

 

It is NOT major surgery as an adult! My DH insisted that our DS have the right to chose what he wanted done to HIS body. At the age of 13 he decided he wanted it done. Took less than 15 minutes. We were at a children's hospital but only because that is what my insurance required. He took tylenol only and was pain free the next day. He had no emotional scars or trauma. Don't make it something it isn't.

 

I believe it up to the parents to decide how they want to treat the issue and frankly don't feel this is a right or wrong decision.

[ciyates]

 

Both my sons are uncircumcised. I don't feel I should decide whether or not they should be or not. When they are old enough and choose to be circumcised for their own personal reasons, they can go ahead and do that. But I don't believe in doing that to a baby.

:iagree: That is what we did and when our son had it done at the age of 13 it wasn't a big deal. He had very little pain, and was fine the next day. I strongly believe it was his choice and am okay with him deciding to have it done.

[lionfamily1999]

But, please, don't put down, patronize or discount the social and cultural reality that many of our DH's grew up in and how that shapes their decision on the issue. It's difficult to really comprehend the effect of expected circ on generations.

Thank you Joanne. It's gets tiresome, doesn't it?

[Joanne]

Thank you Joanne. It's gets tiresome, doesn't it?

 

When I was researching the issue, my mothering peer group were a bunch of crunchy types, often uber crunchy. Some so stalwart that they'd divorce before having a son their spouse wanted to circ. I heard a LOT of how immature my (then) DH was for worrying about the locker room experience, how wanting his son to look like him was selfish, how his experience wasn't valid, how it needed to be discounted in light of actual medical info.

 

One thing the uber-radical-crunchy crowd often does on this issue is ignore that the men who are offering an opinion are offering a *valid* life experience of having grown up in a culture that practices routine infant circ. Not only are the locker room experiences real, so are their perceptions of medical issues! I'm not saying that the medical issues are real, but having heard them for years and from authority, coupled with the social reality, I *get* why Dads of today want their sons circed.

 

Lord knows I don't defend my xh.:lol: But that experience taught me a LOT about this issue and I do think in this regard, xh was (in part) coming from a real place in his heart as a man that needed to be considered, not disregarded.

[Peek a Boo]

Many Christians do not believe in circumcising. :lol:

 

 

God created man in his own image right? If this was so wouldn't man be born without a foreskin? :)

 

yabbut, what if the foreskin is a product of the Fall, like other genetic anomalies? ;)

[Sputterduck]

When my husband was growing up going to camp, there were two brothers that weren't circumsized and the other boys used to call them the "uns". Not saying that is right by any means, but my husband was 100% for circumcision because he know how boys can pick on other boys over that issue.

 

Yes, well baby boys who are circumcised now in my state are in the minority. So they will be the ones made fun of in the locker room, if that is going to happen.

[Joanne]

Yes, well baby boys who are circumcised now in my state are in the minority. So they will be the ones made fun of in the locker room, if that is going to happen.

 

That could be true. But it doesn't invalidate the actual "boy" experience of the dad growing up when intact males were made fun of. It's going to be very difficult for many of those males to accept that it's not the same locker room situation.

[Sputterduck]

That could be true. But it doesn't invalidate the actual "boy" experience of the dad growing up when intact males were made fun of. It's going to be very difficult for many of those males to accept that it's not the same locker room situation.

 

Facts are facts though. If they look at the statistics and see that circumcised boys are in the minority, they'd have to be pretty block-headed to go on assuming that circumcised boys in their kids' generation are the majority. That's purposeful ignorance. It's not like a man who was circumcised as a baby and saw other boys teased in the locker room as a teen went through some sort of traumatic experience they can't get over. They saw someone else get teased.

 

It's akin to not letting your child wear glasses or braces because someone got teased. It's all painful. But if you *really* care that your boy not get teased, at this point forgo the circumcision.

[MelanieM]

I would have a very low opinion of such physicians.

 

Just as I'd have a low opinion of a dentist who did potentially painful dental work without novocaine (or whatever). But I wouldn't not get a filling because there are bad dentists in the world. Nor would I by-pass the salutary effects of a circumcision because there are some bad physicians.

 

There is no reason for a circumcision to be anything but a simple pain-free procedure. And that's the way it ought to be for those who choose it for their sons.

 

Bill

 

Pain-free is not always simple. There are risks involved with anesthesia as well, and we really don't know the long-term impact (if any) of pain medication injected into the bloodstream of a newborn baby.

 

To piggy-back on your dental analogy... a couple of years ago I went in for some routine fillings and the pain medication resulted in a swelling of my throat to the point that I could barely swallow. The procedure was ended before it began, and I was ultimately all right, but it was extremely frightening to have that kind of reaction.

 

So again, it's not always as simple as saying as long as it's pain-free it's good. There are always risks that have to be considered.

 

One thing the uber-radical-crunchy crowd often does on this issue is ignore that the men who are offering an opinion are offering a *valid* life experience of having grown up in a culture that practices routine infant circ. Not only are the locker room experiences real, so are their perceptions of medical issues! I'm not saying that the medical issues are real, but having heard them for years and from authority, coupled with the social reality, I *get* why Dads of today want their sons circed.

 

Lord knows I don't defend my xh.:lol: But that experience taught me a LOT about this issue and I do think in this regard, xh was (in part) coming from a real place in his heart as a man that needed to be considered, not disregarded.

 

I completely agree with this. Even if I could not understand the viewpoint, it would be horribly unfair of me to dismiss someone else's feelings based on their experiences. People feel what they feel, and brow-beating, ignoring, or shaming them to try and make them feel something different is hardly kind or helpful.

 

Now, I don't believe that the way to honour a man's feelings about his childhood experiences is to alter his son as a form of protection for the boy. (In fact, I believe there is a lot of healing through self-acceptance that can happen here. And boys who will be mean will find something else to be mean about anyway.) But I do see why men who have experienced being treated poorly can have a difficult time sifting through their own emotions when making a decision like this.

[Mommyof4ks]

OP, no we did not watch the procedure. Our boys were taken to the nursery of the hospital at a few hours old and the pedi did the surgery. We were told that they numb the area, do the surgery and then bring the baby right back. Both boys were asleep when they came back to us, and within a few minutes they were happily eating.