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Had some time to look more in-depth at CW


razorbackmama
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Oh it is just DELIGHTFUL!!!!!! Truly this is the sort of writing curriculum I have been looking for. Of course it all will boil down to time, time, time though.:tongue_smilie: But I think I may be able to pull it off, since one of my students that I'm teaching one-on-one this year will be folded into the group next year.

 

But of course, I have questions.:D

 

The kids I'll be doing it with will be in 8th, 6th, and 5th next year. They will all complete WWE 4 this year. I looked at the placement guide over at the CW website and message board, and I *think* the 8th grader might be able to do Older Beginners. I'm not sure though since he's got comprehension issues (as in, he often doesn't comprehend explanations or instructions:rolleyes: ). I may wait until the end of the year to figure out where to place him.

 

The younger 2 *might* be able to handle Aesop B, but would it be safer just to be sure they are solid on retelling narratives and such to start in Aesop A and just do both A&B next year?

 

Is it true that we would not need another grammar program in addition to Aesop A & B? Or should I have them do something in addition to CW, even though it's not tied in (as it is in Homer)?

 

From what I can tell, CW has the Harvey's assignments listed in the manual, so if we were to use that, we would just do those assignments? Or would we work through Harvey's sort of independently of CW and then just review when CW calls for something from Harvey's? Is that what those of you do who do NOT use Harvey's? I have to admit it's rather tempting to just go ahead and use Harvey's since the assignments are already laid out for me (from what I can tell). If we don't use Harvey's, I'd go with either JAG/AG or CLE, I think, but I'm not sure. I don't want to make too much work for myself trying to figure out how to line everything up.

 

I think I read a thread over at the CW forum saying that all the diagramming we'll need is covered in the CW manuals...is that true? Or do I need to be sure that the grammar program I choose covers diagramming as well? I'm assuming that Harvey's does not cover it?

 

Does anyone know if there is someplace where I can see a sample page or two of Harvey's? So far all I've been able to find is the table of contents, and that doesn't help me much LOL! Does it really cover as much grammar as AG or R&S or something like that does? The reason I wonder is because it's geared toward grades 4-6.:confused:

 

I *think* that's all of my questions, but I'll probably end up with more LOL.

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Harvey's does include diagramming. CW has it set up so that the workbooks that go along with the Harvey's Elem. Grammar textbook match the style of diagramming that they use in the CW Homer books.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=H8AAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA137&dq=harvey's+elementary+grammar+and+composition&as_brr=1&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

You can look at Harvey's at Google Books.

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Thanks!:D

 

Thought of some more questions as I looked through it some more.

 

Would we still need to do the grammar notebook if we used the workbooks that correspond with Harvey's that CW publishes?

 

If you don't use Harvey's, what does your grammar/CW time "look" like? What if whatever grammar program you use doesn't progress in the same order as Harvey's - is it a problem if you come to something in CW that you haven't covered yet? How do you handle that? Do you still do the grammar notebook that CW says to do, just using the definitions and such that are in your grammar program? I'm just trying to get a feel for how it would all work together if we went with another grammar program.

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I currently have two kids in CW - one in Homer and one in Herodotus. Let me see if I can address the questions...

 

First - yes put your oldest in Older Beginners. If you need to spend some extra time with him helping him understand the instructions then do that but if you put him back in Aesop and then through Homer, he won't get the more advanced writing instruction from the upper levels that he'll need early enough in high school to do him any good. Also, if you find you need him to do an extra assignment or two with a particular skill he's struggling with - just do it. You can just pull a model out of the books your younger ones are using or come up with your own.

 

Second - I would be pretty confident in saying that student in 6th or 5th grade who have done WWE4 could start in Aesop B. I don't really see a need for Aesop A in this case unless they are really struggling. If they were younger, I'd say go ahead with A but at that age - go with B.

 

Third - Grammar - we don't use Harvey's. I use Junior Analytical Grammar and Analytical Grammar. My oldest has finished AG so she doesn't do any more grammar - except for Latin. She's in 9th grade. My middle DD has done JAG and will do Analytical Grammar next year. Right now she is just doing the grammar assignments in Homer itself - not Harveys. I know my signature says Shurley. She's been doing that because I was a bit chicken about having a 'year off' separate grammar after JAG last year but I'm not finding I really need it so we are just doing the Homer grammar. I'll pull the Shurley back out for review while we take a break to do CW Poetry. As far as your kids in Aesop. I think you'll be fine with just that grammar until you get into Homer at which point you'll want some kind of outside grammar. If you want to do Harvey's - great. It's all scheduled for you. I didn't like Harvey's at all. Otherwise just pick something else. Obviously I'm partial to the AG products. You could do JAG with Aesop if you want as well.

 

Does this help?

 

Heather

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First - yes put your oldest in Older Beginners. If you need to spend some extra time with him helping him understand the instructions then do that but if you put him back in Aesop and then through Homer, he won't get the more advanced writing instruction from the upper levels that he'll need early enough in high school to do him any good. Also, if you find you need him to do an extra assignment or two with a particular skill he's struggling with - just do it. You can just pull a model out of the books your younger ones are using or come up with your own.

 

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I was concerned with as well.

 

Second - I would be pretty confident in saying that student in 6th or 5th grade who have done WWE4 could start in Aesop B. I don't really see a need for Aesop A in this case unless they are really struggling. If they were younger, I'd say go ahead with A but at that age - go with B.

 

That makes sense - thanks!

 

Third - Grammar - we don't use Harvey's. I use Junior Analytical Grammar and Analytical Grammar. My oldest has finished AG so she doesn't do any more grammar - except for Latin. She's in 9th grade. My middle DD has done JAG and will do Analytical Grammar next year. Right now she is just doing the grammar assignments in Homer itself - not Harveys. I know my signature says Shurley. She's been doing that because I was a bit chicken about having a 'year off' separate grammar after JAG last year but I'm not finding I really need it so we are just doing the Homer grammar. I'll pull the Shurley back out for review while we take a break to do CW Poetry. As far as your kids in Aesop. I think you'll be fine with just that grammar until you get into Homer at which point you'll want some kind of outside grammar. If you want to do Harvey's - great. It's all scheduled for you. I didn't like Harvey's at all. Otherwise just pick something else. Obviously I'm partial to the AG products. You could do JAG with Aesop if you want as well.

 

Do you think JAG would be doable with the Older Beginners? I know that he'll be in 8th which is prime AG age, but I've read that the vocabulary in the sentences can be tough, and vocab is definitely one area in which he struggles. BUT if JAG doesn't cover what Homer would need it to cover, then I guess we'd figure out a way to make AG work.

 

So when you say that you are just doing the grammar in Homer, what does that look like? Do you do the grammar notebook like the manuals say?

 

Thanks so much, Heather!

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Do you think JAG would be doable with the Older Beginners? I know that he'll be in 8th which is prime AG age, but I've read that the vocabulary in the sentences can be tough, and vocab is definitely one area in which he struggles. BUT if JAG doesn't cover what Homer would need it to cover, then I guess we'd figure out a way to make AG work.

 

So when you say that you are just doing the grammar in Homer, what does that look like? Do you do the grammar notebook like the manuals say?

 

Thanks so much, Heather!

 

Yes I think JAG would be sufficient during Older Beginners. It covers the same grammar as the first session of AG and should be enough to get you through Aesop and Homer levels (which is what Older Beginners is). There are a few differences in terminology but those are easy to deal with. We haven't had any issues.

 

As far as the 'grammar in Homer' - some of the analysis work is grammar. For example, the six sentence shuffle step 1 is parsing and diagramming the sentence. Or there are assignments to identify and classify the words in a particular sentence from the model. These are all under the 'analysis' section of the Instructor's Guide and part of the Homer student workbook. We do those. In the Instructor's guide, on the assignment checklist, there is also a section called 'Theory'. That is where the Harvey's grammar assignments are. We don't do those. If you chose not to do Harvey's, you would not need the Harvey's grammar workbook or text.

 

Heather

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We do keep the grammar notebook but it really does go along with the Harvey's book so if you decide against it you probably wouldn't need to keep it. We also keep a commonplace book but I allow her a lot of say in her entries. She must copy something meaningful to her and it usually must come from the books we are reading for that term but I also allow her to have days where she may copy anything she comes across that is meaningful to her. She has selections from literature, history, poetry, and Shakespeare but I have also encouraged her to include quotes from history and speeches too.

 

 

HTH:001_smile:

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We do keep the grammar notebook but it really does go along with the Harvey's book so if you decide against it you probably wouldn't need to keep it.

 

 

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH, OK. I think I get it LOL. So here is what I'm picturing...PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong somewhere LOL.

 

If we don't use Harvey's then we would do whatever grammar program on the side. They would not have to put together a grammar notebook. But they WOULD need to be familiar with the definitions/concepts listed in the assignment chart for that particular lesson? (I'm fuzzy on that part.) And in the actual CW program they would use the grammar knowledge they have thus far in the parsing and diagramming? So I would just need to make sure that whatever topic is covered in the parsing and diagramming has already been covered in our grammar program? (Does that correspond with the definitions that are listed on the assignment page, or would I need to dive deep into each lesson to make sure?)

 

If I DO have it right...any suggestions as to what to do if our grammar program hasn't covered a particular topic when CW calls for it? Or is that the sort of thing that I need to make sure of when choosing a grammar program?

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Yep - you've got it. And if you choose to use another grammar program, but end up needing grammar help - ask the HIVE. Seriously. Dont' stress yourself out over whether the grammar program you choose covers every detail in the right order for CW. It's just not worth that. If you are concerned that you'll really worry about that, then use Harvey's. That way you'll know for sure. If you are thinking about JAG/AG - I know you'll be fine. And if you need help, ask here or email me. If I don't know I can guarantee my 9th grader will. She's great with grammar.

 

Heather

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Thanks, Heather! I think you're exactly right. I might just get some sort of grammar handbook or something, to refresh my memory. I'm somewhat of a grammar geek (which comes in handy but can be frustrating when reading a poorly edited textbook by someone who does NOT know grammar ROFLOL!!!!!!! I had a read a book for my counseling class this semester, and OH MY WORD - the COMMA SPLICES!!!!!!!:001_huh:), but it's been a while since I've used proper terminology and such. So perhaps just having a handbook for reference can get me by if something comes up that we haven't covered yet. And then of course, the HIVE.;)

 

We are using R&S right now, and it's OK, but my kids don't seem to be retaining much. And they greatly prefer a worktext format (since I have so many we can't do the lessons orally, so they have to write). So I think I have it narrowed down to CLE or JAG/AG. I think.:lol:

 

I'm pretty sure I'm decided on CW. In fact, the ONLY thing stopping me from starting it once we start back to school after Christmas is the fact that I'll have a newborn. NOT the time to start CW.;)

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Yes I think JAG would be sufficient during Older Beginners. It covers the same grammar as the first session of AG and should be enough to get you through Aesop and Homer levels (which is what Older Beginners is). There are a few differences in terminology but those are easy to deal with. We haven't had any issues.

 

As far as the 'grammar in Homer' - some of the analysis work is grammar. For example, the six sentence shuffle step 1 is parsing and diagramming the sentence. Or there are assignments to identify and classify the words in a particular sentence from the model. These are all under the 'analysis' section of the Instructor's Guide and part of the Homer student workbook. We do those. In the Instructor's guide, on the assignment checklist, there is also a section called 'Theory'. That is where the Harvey's grammar assignments are. We don't do those. If you chose not to do Harvey's, you would not need the Harvey's grammar workbook or text.

 

Heather

 

 

Heather,

 

In Harvey's/Homer B they cover clauses, which JAG does not do. Is that just for diagramming or do they actually apply it in some way? I ask because if it is applied in some way, then she might want to do AG with the Older Beginners, so she can get to Season 2 where they cover clauses.

 

If the only place it is used is the 6 sentence shuffle I could see modifying the work for the child easily and catching up on grammar later.

 

My dd is on week 18 of Homer A, so I have only been able to "peek" at what is coming. Though I bought Homer B a while ago. Just too much to be done and not enough time for reading lately. (Which I am sure you can relate to!)

 

Heather

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I agree with starting with the Older Beginners. Even if you have to do it at half pace so that it really sinks in you will end up 6 months ahead of where you would be doing Aesop A and Homer A and B separately-assuming he could stay on schedule with those. To be honest the only way my dd stays on schedule is because I alternate it with the Poetry, which is lighter. If she had to do week after week of the Homer work....we would run into attitude problems. Every other week she handles well, even through it requires her to do the first about 8 weeks of Homer without a break. That is where it is at it's easiest.

 

I agree you can jump to Aesop B, as long as you are comfortable jumping into the grammar. Now B does review the grammar covered in A, and it isn't difficult grammar. You might want to just look at the sequence to be sure you are fine with it. I don't really think it would be a big deal.

 

 

With the grammar in Homer A I have my oldest correct a lot of her own work, so if her diagramming is off she just corrects it. Because of how complicated the verbage is in the CW models I really am not worried about her being a little off as long as she is doing well in AG. All her AG work I correct myself, so I know how she is doing.

 

As long as the clauses covered in Homer B/Harvey's is just for diagramming purposes then I think you would be fine doing JAG with the Older Beginners. You would have to have him parse and try to diagram the sentence, but once he had tried you would let him copy down the answer and do the rest of the 6 sentence shuffle from there. Not that big a deal. If you would rather he could do the diagramming on his own or if clauses are applied in some other way (I asked Heather below) then you would want to do AG because the 2nd season is clauses.

 

I don't remember the recommendation for a grammar notebook, but we don't keep one. The girls do have a set of cards on a ring that covers the parts of speech and how to diagram different situations in compounds, as a reference. Wonder if that would be a similar idea?

 

Heather/siloam

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I don't remember the recommendation for a grammar notebook, but we don't keep one. The girls do have a set of cards on a ring that covers the parts of speech and how to diagram different situations in compounds, as a reference. Wonder if that would be a similar idea?

 

Oh, that's a good idea! Did you get that idea from somewhere? Or did you come up with that yourself?

 

My only concern with AG is the vocabulary in some of the sentences. Comprehension/vocabulary is a HUGE struggle for him, and I'd hate for that to get in the way of him learning the concepts. We're working hard at it this year though, so maybe by the end of the year I can better determine whether AG would be too much for him. At this point I *think* it might be. Sigh.

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Oh, that's a good idea! Did you get that idea from somewhere? Or did you come up with that yourself?

 

My only concern with AG is the vocabulary in some of the sentences. Comprehension/vocabulary is a HUGE struggle for him, and I'd hate for that to get in the way of him learning the concepts. We're working hard at it this year though, so maybe by the end of the year I can better determine whether AG would be too much for him. At this point I *think* it might be. Sigh.

 

They suggest making the cards in JAG, and I ran with it. :D

 

I hear you with the vocab. It is pretty hefty. As long as the diagramming is all that it is used for I think you would do just fine with JAG and let him just copy the diagram work. It is only done once a week on two different sentences. He will get plenty of practice in JAG and later in AG, when you think he is ready for it.

 

Heather

 

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Thanks!:D

 

Thought of some more questions as I looked through it some more.

 

Would we still need to do the grammar notebook if we used the workbooks that correspond with Harvey's that CW publishes?

 

If you don't use Harvey's, what does your grammar/CW time "look" like? What if whatever grammar program you use doesn't progress in the same order as Harvey's - is it a problem if you come to something in CW that you haven't covered yet? How do you handle that? Do you still do the grammar notebook that CW says to do, just using the definitions and such that are in your grammar program? I'm just trying to get a feel for how it would all work together if we went with another grammar program.

 

Dd, 6th, is doing Diogenes this year. We have never used Harvey's. We have been using R&S and this year CLE. We have always used the CW workbooks, and if we came to grammar we hadn't covered yet sometimes I modified the sentences that were given for diagramming practice if they were just too complicated. Sometimes, and more so this year than in the past, we look up the parts that we don't know to diagram and that is the English lesson for that day!

 

Mary

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Dd, 6th, is doing Diogenes this year. We have never used Harvey's. We have been using R&S and this year CLE. We have always used the CW workbooks, and if we came to grammar we hadn't covered yet sometimes I modified the sentences that were given for diagramming practice if they were just too complicated. Sometimes, and more so this year than in the past, we look up the parts that we don't know to diagram and that is the English lesson for that day!

 

Mary

 

 

Ohhhh this helps! CLE is one of my front-runners for next year's grammar.:) Do you have a handbook or something that you look it up in? Do you end up keeping the LightUnits as reference to look back in?

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Well...I own the entire R&S series from previous dc, so usually we look up new grammar and diagramming in the 7th or 8th grade book. We do have a couple of handbooks, R&S (and I can't remember the other.) The handbooks don't cover the grammar in depth so I've found it easier to understand the new concepts using a text book.

 

This is our first year with CLE LA, and it would be really hard to look up how to diagram something in it! There is no index, only toc in the Light Units. I don't have the TM, just the answer key, so maybe there is more organization in there. CLE has a lot of good points. Students can use it independently more easily than R&S. CLE is fairly incremental and gives a good bit of review through out. CLE is fairly rigorous, but I think R&S is more in depth and more rigorous. I like the organization of R&S. IF you go with CLE, you could get an R&S 7 or 8 book for you to use as a reference. They're pretty inexpensive.

 

Grammar and diagramming are explained in the CW core manuals, but I really preferred explanations and examples in R&S. This is the first year we have really begun looking up the grammar we didn't know-mostly because I feel like we now have a good enough background after having completed R&S 6. When dd was working on Homer, I did a lot of sentence simplifications! I never bothered with trying to coordinate our English with CW-too much work for me. I always viewed CW as reinforcement and practical application. Have fun with CW!

 

Mary

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Well...I own the entire R&S series from previous dc, so usually we look up new grammar and diagramming in the 7th or 8th grade book. We do have a couple of handbooks, R&S (and I can't remember the other.) The handbooks don't cover the grammar in depth so I've found it easier to understand the new concepts using a text book.

 

This is our first year with CLE LA, and it would be really hard to look up how to diagram something in it! There is no index, only toc in the Light Units. I don't have the TM, just the answer key, so maybe there is more organization in there. CLE has a lot of good points. Students can use it independently more easily than R&S. CLE is fairly incremental and gives a good bit of review through out. CLE is fairly rigorous, but I think R&S is more in depth and more rigorous. I like the organization of R&S. IF you go with CLE, you could get an R&S 7 or 8 book for you to use as a reference. They're pretty inexpensive.

 

Grammar and diagramming are explained in the CW core manuals, but I really preferred explanations and examples in R&S. This is the first year we have really begun looking up the grammar we didn't know-mostly because I feel like we now have a good enough background after having completed R&S 6. When dd was working on Homer, I did a lot of sentence simplifications! I never bothered with trying to coordinate our English with CW-too much work for me. I always viewed CW as reinforcement and practical application. Have fun with CW!

 

Mary

 

Oh ack, for some reason I was thinking that CLE was as comprehensive as R&S, just laid out differently and more of a spiral approach than mastery? We are using R&S right now, but my kids greatly prefer a worktext format rather than having to write everything. (And since I have so many I can't do the lessons orally, so they do have to write stuff out.;) )

 

JAG/AG is my other choice besides CLE. Hmmmmmm.

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Oh ack, for some reason I was thinking that CLE was as comprehensive as R&S, just laid out differently and more of a spiral approach than mastery? We are using R&S right now, but my kids greatly prefer a worktext format rather than having to write everything. (And since I have so many I can't do the lessons orally, so they do have to write stuff out.;) )

 

JAG/AG is my other choice besides CLE. Hmmmmmm.

 

Kristin, in your case with all those dc I think CLE would be a great choice for you and it is thorough. I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to dissuade you! My dd (she's 7th IDK why I said 6th earlier) is using it for the reasons you want to use it. I don't have time right now to do oral lessons as much with her. Next year should be different. I like CLE, but R&S is my personal favorite. And I recognize that for DD the explanations in R&S 7 and 8 get pretty long, dry and tedious! She likes CLE. My main point in my rambling on in my previous post, is that if you wanted to look up a grammar concept addressed in CW or how to diagram something in CW, it would be hard to do in CLE Light Units. An additional resource for you might be helpful.:001_smile:

 

Mary

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Kristin, in your case with all those dc I think CLE would be a great choice for you and it is thorough. I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to dissuade you! My dd (she's 7th IDK why I said 6th earlier) is using it for the reasons you want to use it. I don't have time right now to do oral lessons as much with her. Next year should be different. I like CLE, but R&S is my personal favorite. And I recognize that for DD the explanations in R&S 7 and 8 get pretty long, dry and tedious! She likes CLE. My main point in my rambling on in my previous post, is that if you wanted to look up a grammar concept addressed in CW or how to diagram something in CW, it would be hard to do in CLE Light Units. An additional resource for you might be helpful.:001_smile:

 

Mary

 

Oh OK! Thanks!:D

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Thanks, Heather! I think you're exactly right. I might just get some sort of grammar handbook or something, to refresh my memory. I'm somewhat of a grammar geek (which comes in handy but can be frustrating when reading a poorly edited textbook by someone who does NOT know grammar ROFLOL!!!!!!! I had a read a book for my counseling class this semester, and OH MY WORD - the COMMA SPLICES!!!!!!!:001_huh:), but it's been a while since I've used proper terminology and such. So perhaps just having a handbook for reference can get me by if something comes up that we haven't covered yet. And then of course, the HIVE.;)

 

We are using R&S right now, and it's OK, but my kids don't seem to be retaining much. And they greatly prefer a worktext format (since I have so many we can't do the lessons orally, so they have to write). So I think I have it narrowed down to CLE or JAG/AG. I think.:lol:

 

I'm pretty sure I'm decided on CW. In fact, the ONLY thing stopping me from starting it once we start back to school after Christmas is the fact that I'll have a newborn. NOT the time to start CW.;)

Kristen,

 

Congrats!! Not a good time as you say, though.

 

I have found AG has all the terminology I have needed to date, but I know we aren't on the more difficult stuff yet. :rolleyes: If you wanted my computer file of terms I could send it to you. I had wrote out the diagramming through, so it would just be the parts of speech.

 

 

Heather/siloam

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