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LCC or CM with MCT - do they go together or should they?


Merry
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From what I understand of the LCC, you learn the English grammar mostly through translating the Latin into English and vice versa. But you still do need to supplement some with an English grammar program and a progymnasmata writing program and maybe some spelling. Also, there is the dictation and narration the CM way. Not to mention the outlining and summarizing skills the WTM way. Does MCT have all that?

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I tend to follow CM's ideas and we're using MCT. However, I should say that I don't follow CM's ideas on "how" to teach the LA's, but I won't get into that. I do feel that it is somewhat CMasony. We sit together and discuss words and language, there are quirky stories weaved within the lesson, and the lessons can be rather short (you decide how much you want to cover). You could choose to use some of the practice sentences for copywork and dictation if you chose to. :001_smile:

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(Disclaimer: While I have read extensively on LCC and CM; CW/progym, MCT, and WWE/WTM writing; and English grammar, writing, and Latin in general - clearly I have no life :D - I have only tested all my grand theories on myself thus far. Plus I've only seen samples of MCT - love what I've seen & heard, though. So take all this for what it is - theoretical analysis, not btdt experience. Hope it has *some* value - esp after I typed out this paragraph-long disclaimer one-handed while nursing at the keyboard. :lol:)

 

Ok, MCT is a complete LA program, minus spelling - though you can cherry-pick whichever components you want. From what I've seen and read, it does not do copywork/dictation/narration, though you could certainly add it yourself, either prior to starting MCT - it starts ~3rd - or alongside. As well, it does not place explicit emphasis on summarizing (though he very well may teach it implicitly) - he believes that anything you write should contain your own ideas, that just a regurgitation of someone else's ideas, without any value added via your own interpretation, is pointless. I don't *think* he uses outlining per se - certainly not as much as WTM does - but he certainly teaches how to logically organize your writing to properly make your point. And his program does have a strong focus on analyzing worthy literature - seeing how it is put together at all levels and how it achieves its goals. Thus it is similar to CW in its goals and overall approach, but the nitty-gritty of how MCT goes about it is quite different from CW.

 

I think it is philosophically in line with CM - she advocates learning from (books by) people who are both skilled and passionate about their subject, and MCT certainly is that! His love for the English language shines through everything he says and does. As well, CM emphasized high standards, and correctness on the first pass, which MCT's books also emphasize. Also, MCT's focus on learning the core concepts of language and then applying them holistically (rather than learning a bunch of facts which the student may or may not ever see how they fit together) seems very CMish to me. All told, MCT seems to share much of CM's philosophy and goals for LA (and teaching in general), but I wouldn't say that MCT's *methodology* is particularly CMish. He emphasizes grammar study at an earlier age than CM, for example, but even so, I'd say their goals for learning grammar are very similar. Bottom line, I think that MCT could mesh well with a CM approach, even though I wouldn't call MCT a CM program.

 

As for LCC, MCT would fit in nicely with its ideal of multum non multa, and I think that MCT has comparable goals as the progym, LCC's rec'd writing method. I think MCT would prepare students well for the rigors of LCC's upper levels. However, LCC also has the goal of utilizing historically accurate classical methods as much as is practical. LCC considers the formative benefits of classical education to be important, as did the ancients, and thus wants to use methods that are conducive to this goal. MCT does things differently than the progym, and thus working through it would probably form different habits of thought than working through the progym. Would they be better or worse? No idea. I haven't put in nearly enough thought. But it ultimately would depend on your goals. Not everyone is concerned about the formative effects of education, and many people just don't share the ancients' opinion about what constitutes a good education, period. And we *have* had a couple millennia of progress - we *do* do some things better than the ancients did (LCC evens says as much wrt to math).

 

In conclusion, just as CM is sort of the neo-classical of her day - similar goals, but updated methodology - I'd say that MCT is the modern version of the progym (more or less), a comparison made on the giant thread about MCT/flavor of the month. They both rely heavily on studying great works, in technical detail, to figure out how they work. They both encourage making changes to the original and seeing what happens. But MCT doesn't seem to be a fan of adhering to anything that even smacks of being a "formula", whereas the progym, otoh, believes in learning via strict imitation at first, and gradually expanding one's horizons - making the basic structure your own - as you improve.

 

HTH

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I think it is philosophically in line with CM - she advocates learning from (books by) people who are both skilled and passionate about their subject, and MCT certainly is that! His love for the English language shines through everything he says and does. As well, CM emphasized high standards, and correctness on the first pass, which MCT's books also emphasize. Also, MCT's focus on learning the core concepts of language and then applying them holistically (rather than learning a bunch of facts which the student may or may not ever see how they fit together) seems very CMish to me. All told, MCT seems to share much of CM's philosophy and goals for LA (and teaching in general), but I wouldn't say that MCT's *methodology* is particularly CMish. He emphasizes grammar study at an earlier age than CM, for example, but even so, I'd say their goals for learning grammar are very similar. Bottom line, I think that MCT could mesh well with a CM approach, even though I wouldn't call MCT a CM program.

 

 

:iagree:...well said!

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progym which involves becoming familiar with the ancient writings might be lost if we use the MCT program? Hmmm, I wonder. But would learning Latin and/or Greek which would mean reading the ancient literature in the original make up for the loss of the benefits via the MCT? And I truly appreciate your taking the time to compare these, thanks.

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Well, ok, about the formative benefits of classical education through using the progym which involves becoming familiar with the ancient writings might be lost if we use the MCT program? Hmmm, I wonder. But would learning Latin and/or Greek which would mean reading the ancient literature in the original make up for the loss of the benefits via the MCT? And I truly appreciate your taking the time to compare these, thanks.

 

MCT does focus a lot on Rome & Latin, with not only Latin stems but "real Latin" sentences, plus quotes from Caesar's Gallic Wars (in English), oh and pictures of Caesar's statues -- would that count :lol:

Edited by Julie in MN
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(Disclaimer: While I have read extensively on LCC and CM; CW/progym, MCT, and WWE/WTM writing; and English grammar, writing, and Latin in general - clearly I have no life :D - I have only tested all my grand theories on myself thus far. Plus I've only seen samples of MCT - love what I've seen & heard, though. So take all this for what it is - theoretical analysis, not btdt experience. Hope it has *some* value - esp after I typed out this paragraph-long disclaimer one-handed while nursing at the keyboard. :lol:)

 

 

:iagree:

 

and...Thank you for this -- I printed this and two or three other posts for DH to read as he was curious regarding our new LA program.

 

And good job typing with one hand :lol: -- When dd29 was an infant, I learned to write with my left hand so I could do papers for school and stuff while nursing her. Necessity is the .................

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