How would you fix the American public education system?

[chiguirre]

I very much agree with the idea of separating sports from academics. School should exclusively focus on academics and extracurriculars should be provided by a separate community based organization. I think this would make a huge difference in the attitude of American middle and high school students toward academic achievement.

 

It never fails to amaze my Venezuelan friends when their 10 or 11 year old, bright child suddenly starts slacking in school. I've explained the social dynamic and the negative aspects of being perceived as a brain, geek, curve wrecker, etc. but it's so different than what they're used to that it's hard for the parents to make that shift. I've seen the same difference in emphasis in both Eastern and Western European and other Latin American countries too. It may be the lack of a national exit exam that determines your university options (something like the bac or abitur) or it might be the strict focus on academics in other countries' schools. It might just be part of the American national character to distrust the eggheads and admire the jocks. I do think this is the root of the problem, though I'm not sure there's any easy way to fix it.

[stripe]

5. Use same books year after year. Enough replacing perfectly good books with new ones!

Ha. When I was in high school, I had at least a 25 year old geometry book that had been stabbed through about half way, in multiple spots.

 

Hmm. I wonder. If our (applying this idea to both your country and mine) major minority groups were to teach in their home language and teach the majority language as a second language. Or, and I don't know if any of you read the "Chalet School" books as kids, but I wonder if their model would work? Say you lived in Florida and the school operated in English on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and Spanish on Tuesday and Thursdays? Or the same idea in Canada, but using English and French?

In some groups, bilingualism is seen as a threat to the American spirit. This might not go over well.

[mycalling]

I would want to see levels instead of grades in public schools. Everyone starts at level one in each subject and then moves up if they are ready. ...You can take them in any order, but they all must be passed before you move on. Oh, and kids should be able to test out of classes, just like college too, so if they are gifted/talented in a certain area they can continue to move up and be challenged without being bogged down in state regs.

 

I would make year round school mandatory, with only full days off (no late start/half-days). I would make the year into 2mth sections.

:iagree:This is brilliant! I would give the levels letters starting with J (Pre-K), K (Kindergarten), then L-Z would give them 15 levels to advance through. Starting with J will not confuse them with letter grades. High School courses could have level qualifications; for example, Chemistry 1 maybe be taken as Science level S or T. This would still afford children options in the upper grades.

 

I love the testing out option, too! Year-round is smart, maybe with trimesters. Some levels may take 2 trimesters, some 3. Electives can be 1 trimester units. That affords flexibility and the ability to take a trimester off in a subject or to retake only part of a subject's level before moving on. By the time peer issues for being smart develop in older years, children's subject levels will be so diverse.

 

I'm serious, this is brilliant and I think I'm going to implement this in our homeschool.

[Joanne]

Get rid of the teacher union. It's political, not educational.

 

I don't know how to do this, but I'd also remove the power, arrogance and attitude of the administration of public schools. I saw the damage and power for the sake of power operating when I worked @ public schools and it never emerged from the teachers, it was from the administration. The is true even at the level of bus drivers and their admin. It is/was ridiculous.

 

Get rid of the thought that more, earlier, of the same education that is failing will "work". Kids' actual readiness for formal education varies. Reading and learning math facts earlier does not = better. I don't know how to honor this in an institutional setting, but I bet a lot of 5 to 8 year old boys (and their families) would be happier! And not hurt in the long run academically.

 

I agree with separate sports from education. The sports culture is as damaging as it is a good thing (for those who are able).

 

I'd remove the mystic that surrounds teaching kids. It's not that complicated. Honestly.

 

I'd find a different way to allocate funds.

[st_claire]

I think I know what you are getting at, but for one thing it wasn't me who said it would result in some children not having access to school.

 

I was confused by the statement that millions of children don't go to school because I thought the discussion was referring to the US, and I wondered if there were in fact millions of children in the US who don't go to school (that would have been news to me). I realize there are children in the world who do not go to school. I don't know why you would assume I'm not aware of that fact. But we weren't talking about the education system of the world.

 

You shouldn't assume that all Americans are so ignorant to what goes on in the world.

 

I agree with your sentiment.

 

Ok, miscommunication then. It's hard to tell the tone of something online. Sorry for misjuding your comment.

[elfgivas]

Deal with the poverty issue. Educate parents how to parent, handle conflict, provide the best educational stimulation for their children and create stable home environments. When teacher's time is taken up solely dealing with the behavioral problems from kids with these kinds of difficulties, there is no way they can be present to do their true job of educating.

 

:iagree:

 

and we need to stop using the "they" word and start using the

"we" word. it is not some nebulous institution or person's job to fix this; its ours.

 

i have a hunch reforming media fits into the big picture somewhere, too.

 

fwiw,

ann

[elw_miller]

My grandma taught in a one-room school for a few years. She really enjoyed it and thought the kids learned a great deal (she had also been a student in a one-room). The school was maybe 25 kids spread over 8 grade levels. She gave the kids quite a bit of individual attention and independent work. They worked to mastery. Then, every Friday they had a free hour where they could work on a project--sewing, woodworking, etc.

 

My dad also learned in a one-room schoolhouse. He really enjoyed it, too. He liked listening in on the older kids' lessons and trying to answer himself the more challenging questions they were given.

 

This might work even in larger districts if the kids were divided up in this way, even if it only worked in the elementary schools. A PP included the fabulous idea of classifying kids by levels instead of grades and allowing kids to 'pass out' of classes--I think this idea would work really well in a one-room school kind of model.

 

I think that PP idea was outstanding! Write a letter to the Dept of Ed!! :)

[elfgivas]

Or, and I don't know if any of you read the "Chalet School" books as kids,

Rosie

 

we love, love, love the chalet school books. our third dd is just about ready to start on them :)

 

ann

[Susan in TN]

I would make every Governor, Mayor, school administrator, and school board member publish a plan for homeschooling their own kids (real or imagined if they didn't have any) for the next 6 years. They'd have to give specifics on what curriculum/books they'd use for each grade and why, plan their budget, and write a 3 page essay giving their philosophy/methodology of a great education.

 

If they felt even a minor responsibility for the education of someone they loved, it would make them think more carefully about what a good education consists of. (I'm not saying that they don't care, I think most of them haven't thought through education in a meaningful way that is also practical.)

 

Oh, I'd also eliminate the Federal govt. from all oversight/funding/involvement. Education should be a state/local matter, and the more the federal govt. gets involved, the messier and more expensive it becomes.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Susan in TN

[Ohdanigirl]

tough one.

 

First I think most of us would agree on class size needinig to be smaller. I also feel that responsibilty needs to go back on the student and the parents....how? Who knows?

 

And here is where my opinion may get contriversial, so I apoligize in advance...

 

I really don't believe there should be an option for students to do grades k-3 in Spanish if that is the only language they speak. I am aware that this is not offered in many areas, but in So Ca, where I am from, this is very common. This means that the students do not learn English in school until 4th grade. Although there may be many benefits for some children I have seen that it is not usually the case with the children in these classes. I speak Spanish/read and my mother taught me on her own time. She spent hours each year arguing with the school whenever they attempted to put me in ESL classes or some other idea they had even though I always tested above 95% on my English scores. Plus kids this young are like sponges and really do pick up the language quickly.

 

Also, I see this option as unfair since students who speak only English are often not allowed to enroll in this program as a emersion class.

 

For older students going into high school knowing no English think extra hours have to be required. It wold be great if subject like history,math and Science could be n their native tongue, but with so many people from so many backgrounds this would likely break the bank. It may be more realistic to focus a full year on English, then put them in the other classes...I would rather a student graduate late and understand the material.

 

I know this focuses on a minority of students, but I believe it affects all of the students.

 

Also, it would be great it we could find a way to make parents be more involved. I can elaborate i anybody would like, but for now I will shut my mouth....

[msjones]

I have an idea about teaching reading. It's based on my experiences tutoring, home-schooling, and teaching in a regular ps classroom.

 

Say a school has 100 1st graders and 100 2nd graders. I'd like to see each and every one of those kids go to scheduled reading lessons in groups (of no more than 4) for 20 - 30 min each day.

 

Each reading teacher could teach about 45 kids each day (8 or so per hour). So, each school would need about 5 of those teachers.

 

Kids would be taught daily -right at their level- by a well-trained reading teacher. Kids who needed more time would get it. Kids ready for more would get it. That's what we do at home, isn't it?

 

I find the difference between teaching a large group and tutoring to be VAST.

 

I think my plan would get results, and could be affordable if a school really wanted to do it.

[Momling]

I would retrain all teachers in a Montessori philosophy. I think that it's really the way to go. It's child appropriate, seriously academic, down to earth...

 

I would also look to other countries with a successful educational system and adapt it for the U.S.

[sunshine]

I would use the model of private schools. They somehow manage to function and educate with a fraction of the money the public schools make and usually 1/3 of the salary. They use their money for their schools. For the students, for the curriculum and for the buildings and lights, water, maintenance and janitors. All at about 6,500 a pupil. At least that is the average rate in my town. There is one school that charges upwards of 10,000 per student. This is considered an Ivy League guarantee private school.

 

How much per student do the public schools get?

 

I just read that South Carolina gets over 11,000 per student and they are ranked one of the lowest in the country #49

 

Ill. students received 18,000 of state money. that didn't include federal or lottery money.

 

I stopped looking then.

Edited November 21, 2009 by sunshine
poor grammar. and it still is bad

[mommyrooch]

Wow, if we really did this, I may have never had the opportunity to go school, along with millions of other children.

 

:iagree: The public school system, although not perfect, is a blessing to many families and children who would most likely not have an education otherwise.

[Cera]

School should have a point for each student and that point should not be the same for everyone. However, everyone should have an education that enables him or her to have a contributing place in society.

 

For some students, the goal should be college, but not for all.

 

For some students, the goal should be a particular vocation. Bring back respectable vocational education!!!

 

Graduating from high school should be about meeting your own plan. Not all students need algebra for their life to reach its potential. Some students need lots of experience in spatial relationships and mechanics for their full potential. Others need music. Having goals that are consistent with a child's strengths and personal goals, and that are realistic would go a long way toward student's investing in school. Who wants to work on something that you're bound to fail at? Why not cop an attitude and do as little as possible. But what if instead, your goals for graduating from high school jive with what you can do and want to do?

 

The federal govt should stay out of education except if it wants to give poorer states supplemental money. States should dictate as little as possible to districts, and districts should give teachers freedom to innovate. Parents should be given choices within their districts between differing approaches to teaching. For kids who are "behind", year end testing should be eliminated in favor of a plan for catching up. I can't tell you the number of times I have wished for the low-income students I tutored, that the school would slow down so that they could finally master something before moving on. (The teachers wish this as well.) Why should a student who has not mastered subtraction with borrowing be moved ahead just to be sure to cover stem and leaf plots? (Public school teachers wish this as well.)

 

We have taken away the ability for schools to discipline children. Could kids be put to work nowadays scraping gum off the bottom of desks as they were in years gone by? (etc.) This is where I think maybe school should be a privilege.

 

We should STOP shoving educational goals down to younger and younger ages. No one should be expected to know anything except how to behave when they come to kindergarten. I have a child in tutoring now who in K is expected to read, write, and do math. She can't. She doesn't have basic understanding of the sounds in words or in letters as symbols, but has homework (about 1 hour per day) of writing her spelling words, tracing numbers, etc. I'm sure there will be a conference to retain her. argh.

 

No homework until middle school. That would cut down on the obesity epidemic (as kids I'm familiar with have about 1 hour from K on up. In the winter, if they do their homework first, it's dark and there is no time for play. Homework after a 6 hour day also cuts back on free, creative play time--except for the smart students who get things done super fast. So the educationally rich get richer and the poor get poorer.)

 

Ask for less breadth in elementary school and more depth. Make the goal for kids to get really, really good at the 3 R's.

 

:iagree:This is exactly how I feel (and what I would have typed were feeling more motivated). I actually really believe in educational tracking as long as there is a way for children to move between the levels as they are able.

 

eta: I would also love to see changes to the union/tenure system. I simply can't understand how a system in which you are guaranteed a job regardless of your performance can be expected to work.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Cera

[Rosie_0801]

In some groups, bilingualism is seen as a threat to the American spirit. This might not go over well.

 

Yeah, well. Some people don't know what's good for them. ;)

 

Rosie

[DawnM]

While I agree with #2 in theory, the fact is that math and science teachers will always have massive amounts of openings and those with math and science degrees find far more lucrative jobs in those fields outside of teaching.

 

Sigh.

 

Dawn

 

1. Real school choice.

2. Overhaul schools of education. Better yet, get rid of them and require teachers to have a degree in a content area.

3. Once 2 is done, increase teacher pay.

 

 

 

Ducking and running. :auto:

[Jumping In Puddles]

I would make every Governor, Mayor, school administrator, and school board member publish a plan for homeschooling their own kids (real or imagined if they didn't have any) for the next 6 years. They'd have to give specifics on what curriculum/books they'd use for each grade and why, plan their budget, and write a 3 page essay giving their philosophy/methodology of a great education.

 

If they felt even a minor responsibility for the education of someone they loved, it would make them think more carefully about what a good education consists of. (I'm not saying that they don't care, I think most of them haven't thought through education in a meaningful way that is also practical.)

 

 

I love this! I don't think many elected officials or parents have ever thought carefully about what their education philosophy is.

 

One thing though; there are government officials who do have an educational philosophy and have researched curriculum and have a vision for education and yet still manage to be wrong (or at least very vague such as "children need to learn how to learn" :lol:)

 

I was hoping to hear from Heather in NC because she is a school administrator and homeschooler and she must see the enormous challenges that face the institution that families rarely have to face (unless each parent has an opposite educational philosophy).

[DawnM]

In CA when you enroll your child in school there is a line that asks what language you speak at home. If you mark Spanish, the child is automatically slated for ESL/ELD status. I often told parents who spoke both at home to put English down if they used both at home.

 

I think you are correct that K-3 should be in English or mostly in English with a 2-3 hour ESL program included. If you look at those who speak any other language than Spanish, they are not provided this program and they learn English far quicker.

 

As for High School, you really can't make HS a 5 year program, but what many schools do is have ESL as a 2 hour class that gives them an English credit and an elective credit. That is kind of the best they are able to do.

 

I taught high school ESL for many years in Los Angeles.

 

It isn't a perfect system for sure.

 

Dawn

 

tough one.

 

First I think most of us would agree on class size needinig to be smaller. I also feel that responsibilty needs to go back on the student and the parents....how? Who knows?

 

And here is where my opinion may get contriversial, so I apoligize in advance...

 

I really don't believe there should be an option for students to do grades k-3 in Spanish if that is the only language they speak. I am aware that this is not offered in many areas, but in So Ca, where I am from, this is very common. This means that the students do not learn English in school until 4th grade. Although there may be many benefits for some children I have seen that it is not usually the case with the children in these classes. I speak Spanish/read and my mother taught me on her own time. She spent hours each year arguing with the school whenever they attempted to put me in ESL classes or some other idea they had even though I always tested above 95% on my English scores. Plus kids this young are like sponges and really do pick up the language quickly.

 

Also, I see this option as unfair since students who speak only English are often not allowed to enroll in this program as a emersion class.

 

For older students going into high school knowing no English think extra hours have to be required. It wold be great if subject like history,math and Science could be n their native tongue, but with so many people from so many backgrounds this would likely break the bank. It may be more realistic to focus a full year on English, then put them in the other classes...I would rather a student graduate late and understand the material.

 

I know this focuses on a minority of students, but I believe it affects all of the students.

 

Also, it would be great it we could find a way to make parents be more involved. I can elaborate i anybody would like, but for now I will shut my mouth....

[DawnM]

What are you basing the "average worker" on? Are you basing it on those workers with the same degrees/training/experience?

 

I taught for 16 years and I have NO idea what you are talking about.

 

Dawn

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: The only caveat I have is that if the teachers already make more that average worker in the area, then I am not so sure about increasing pay especially if it involves increasing taxes and they already have cadillac benefits:) OTOH, I am sure that there are plenty of administrators and the like who could be cut in order to increase teacher pay:)

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

Dawn

 

The reason many are against vouchers is because they are concerned that minorities and low-performing students will be the only ones left in public schools as all of the "good" students "escape" from public schooling.

 

Sweden doesn't have that problem because they don't have a minority population to speak of.

[Pippen]

School should have a point for each student and that point should not be the same for everyone. However, everyone should have an education that enables him or her to have a contributing place in society.

 

For some students, the goal should be college, but not for all.

 

For some students, the goal should be a particular vocation. Bring back respectable vocational education!!!

 

I'm with you! Our district took the auto shop and made it into science labs/classrooms. The displaced auto shop kids went to a general shop room that wasn't large enough to drive a car into. :001_huh: The science teachers--even though they needed the space--were horrified as they saw the need for strong vocational program.

 

I would also add stronger vocational options beginning in middle school. Through the years--and especially since No Child Left Behind--the vocational classes have been whittled away to give extra minutes to academics.

 

The federal govt should stay out of education except if it wants to give poorer states supplemental money. States should dictate as little as possible to districts, and districts should give teachers freedom to innovate. Parents should be given choices within their districts between differing approaches to teaching. For kids who are "behind", year end testing should be eliminated in favor of a plan for catching up. I can't tell you the number of times I have wished for the low-income students I tutored, that the school would slow down so that they could finally master something before moving on. (The teachers wish this as well.) Why should a student who has not mastered subtraction with borrowing be moved ahead just to be sure to cover stem and leaf plots? (Public school teachers wish this as well.)

 

I would do away with No Child Left Behind. I'm homeschooling my daughter this year because she attended an elementary school where the low-income, at-risk, and special needs population has dramatically increased since our family started attending and she could no longer cope there. Through those years resources that were once available for average or strong students increasingly shifted to the lower performing students. Gifted program? All but gone. Band? Slashed from 3 times a week to 25 minutes per week. Summer programs? Forget it unless you struggle with reading or math. Individualization? Yup, lots of it if you're struggling or failing, but if you're a strong or gifted student what you get are 2-3 novels and lit discussion groups at your level and few challenging math worksheets on top of your regular work. Extra language arts class at the junior high? You betcha--whether you need it or not because they are required by law to increase those test scores.

 

Yet they've added another layer of administration to deal with discipline, extra resource teachers, more special education staff, additional reading teachers, after-school tutoring, breakfast programs, and summer school to deal with the difficult and/or struggling populations.

 

No Child Left Behind has ushered in the anti-Sputnik era. In constast to what happened in education in the post-Sputnik period, the US is throwing vast resources at a lot of kids in hopes of making them into scholars they weren't meant to be, at the expense of the scientists, doctors, researchers, etc of tomorrow. Don't get me wrong--I'm all for giving all children a decent, basic education but what is happening now is so wrong.

[DawnM]

And I had the job before my internship started! They were so desperate for teachers that I was paid teachers' salary for doing it!

 

This was back in 1989 though.

 

Dawn

 

See, and this was the exact opposite of my experience. It really varies by state & licensure requirements. I had to intern for 23+ weeks (full semester), 19 of which I was teaching, 17-18 full-time. I was so ready to get paid for all my work by the end of the semester that I wanted to scream :D!

[Haiku]

Cut the fluff. Stop trying to have schools be centers of social work to fix the problems kids bring to school. Focus on core academics. Shorten the school day. Institute real discipline that holds kids accountable for their behavior. End compulsory schooling after 8th grade; kids who actually want to be in school after that can then attend college-prep high schools or vocational schools. The kids who are "too cool for school" can go out and get jobs.

 

Tara

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I'll go back and read all the replies when I have a chance. This is such an interesting conversation. Forgive me if my answer duplicates someone else's.

 

The first thing I would do is reduce class size and put a limit on the number of students per teacher. I would not include so-called paraprofessionals when figuring ratios.

 

I would like to see class size under a dozen. Then each kid could have individualized attention from the teacher. I realize the obstacles to this are insurmountable (need more teachers, more buildings, paradigm shift, etc.)

 

I'm also a fan of multi-age/grade classrooms (again, with fewer students).

[kalanamak]

Get rid of the teacher union. It's political, not educational.

 

I don't know how to do this, but I'd also remove the power, arrogance and attitude of the administration of public schools.

 

I agree with separate sports from education.

 

I agree with this, and the quickest route to removing the power and arrogance is to raise teacher pay, lower admin pay, and require all admins to be PART time admins, and the rest of their time they can tutor small groups who need extra help or extra challenges.

 

I can't say it about all schools, but the jock mentality is damaging. Little kinglet and queenlets parading about with contempt for scholarship and community.

[kalanamak]

I would increase starting teacher pay to $85,000/yr topping out at $200k, both with full benefits. All positions would require re-interviewing within a general applicant pool.

 

In my memory there were energetic teachers who taught, and the sour lazy-bone ones who gave us word puzzles with a list of South American capitols (e.g.) for class. The energetic ones, even if they gave hard tests, were admired and loved, and the sour paper pushers were whispered about with hostility. They worked for the same pay. It had to do with character, too, and better pay (and the requirement to be an involved teacher) may stock the ranks with some better people. A good teacher is worth so much! Surely nearly every one of us can remember a teacher who inspired us! (I had one everyone called Killer Harrison. She even called herself Killer.)

 

However, 200K might be a leetle extreme.

[Pippen]

I agree with this, and the quickest route to removing the power and arrogance is to raise teacher pay, lower admin pay, and require all admins to be PART time admins, and the rest of their time they can tutor small groups who need extra help or extra challenges.

.

 

And do away with tenure.

[mom31257]

As a wife of a public school high school teacher, I do not think we will ever fix the all the problems in education until we fix what is wrong in a lot of homes. There are kids who are getting a good education, but it is the kids who are being raised to want it and expect it.

[mycalling]

the US is throwing vast resources at a lot of kids in hopes of making them into scholars they weren't meant to be, at the expense of the scientists, doctors, researchers, etc of tomorrow. Don't get me wrong--I'm all for giving all children a decent, basic education but what is happening now is so wrong.

I agree, though I doubt we'll be with popular opinion.

End compulsory schooling after 8th grade; kids who actually want to be in school after that can then attend college-prep high schools or vocational schools. The kids who are "too cool for school" can go out and get jobs.

Unfortunately, many of those who should go out and get a job will just end up misfits on the streets increasing crime rates.

 

I do agree with separate college-prep and vocational high schools. That's a great idea. Though most parents aren't ready to admit their kid needs the vocational school over the college-prep after 8th grade. Maybe school through 10th and only separate them the last two years. Plus, by the end of 10th they will be 16 and able to get jobs.

[kpupg]

I'm curious if maybe anyone here has some good ideas from homeschooling that could carry over to the public schools.

 

Well, I'm always the wet blanket, so here I go again ...

 

... I don't think there are all that many home schooling ideas/techniques that would actually work in an institutional setting.

 

I think the key to public school improvement is to improve the functioning of the institution. Eliminate tenure. Pay by performance, not seniority. Reduce the bloated bureaucracy and trendy program changes for the sake of change and trendiness. Eliminate many non-academic activities and programs in favor of emphasis on academics -- e.g. our public school system offers courses in cosmetology -- leave that to the post-high-school cosmetology schools. Require teachers to have a college degree in the field they are teaching -- not in "education" -- e.g. math teachers will have a full degree in math. Once you have high-functioning teachers who actually know the subject matter they are presenting, miracles will abound. None of this applies to or derives from home schooling.

 

You know what I just realized? It can be summed up this way: respect academic effort and achievement. All the woes of the institutional schools are due to a lessening of respect and focus on the academic mission.

 

The other critical issue in education is parental involvement. However, that can't be legislated or forced, much as we might wish to at times ...

 

Karen

[Heather in WI]

1. Real school choice.

2. Overhaul schools of education. Better yet, get rid of them and require teachers to have a degree in a content area.

3. Once 2 is done, increase teacher pay.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Mine would be:

 

1. Get rid of the teacher's union.

2. Get rid of schools of education and require teachers to have a degree in a content area.

3. Require teachers to pass a general knowledge test ala Anne of Green Gables. {grin}

 

 

Pay is not the answer, at least here in WI, as our teachers are highly paid and have amazing benefits and retirement packages.

 

 

Interesting article in the City Journal recently:

 

 

Who Needs Mathematicians for Math, Anyway?

 

The ed schools' pedagogy adds up to trouble.

 

 

 

A distinct lack of interest in allowing mathematicians a major voice in determining the content of the high school mathematics curriculum isn’t confined to educational research publications or presentations. A new effort is under way to develop national math standards for K–12. The two organizations running the effort—the National Governors Association and the Council of Chief State School Officers, with support from both the Department of Education and the National Education Association—have not yet invited a single mathematical or science society to ensure that the high school mathematics standards and “college-readiness” standards they propose in fact prepare American high school students for the freshman calculus courses that serve as the basis for undergraduate majors in engineering, science, and mathematics (as well as other mathematics-dependent majors and technical/occupational programs). The effort, which is being pushed very quickly, seems determined to do an end run around the country’s mathematical and scientific organizations and the panel’s recommendations on the major topics for school algebra.

 

Edited November 21, 2009 by Heather in WI

[Joanne]

As a wife of a public school high school teacher, I do not think we will ever fix the all the problems in education until we fix what is wrong in a lot of homes. There are kids who are getting a good education, but it is the kids who are being raised to want it and expect it.

 

With total respect to your situation, I'd really like to know the numbers represented in this situation.

 

I've always lived in suburban US, middle class with majority white but a mix of hispanic, asian, african american.

 

I may be stupid, naive or unrealistic, but I find MOST families adequate at least, and many more than that.

[Pajama Mama]

There are alot of great ideas on here. I haven't read them all so forgive me if this is a repeat. I think teachers should have a year round job and ps should be year round as well. They should have more smaller breaks throughout the year and maybe take one month off during the summer. That month should involve training for the teachers and time for tweaking their lessons. There are teachers that continue their education after becoming a teacher. But alot that I know take the summer off as their break. That's fine. But why not use some of the time to become a better and more knowledgeable teacher?

[Harriet Vane]

With total respect to your situation, I'd really like to know the numbers represented in this situation.

 

I've always lived in suburban US, middle class with majority white but a mix of hispanic, asian, african american.

 

I may be stupid, naive or unrealistic, but I find MOST families adequate at least, and many more than that.

 

The key to your statement here is your context, which I bolded/underlined above.

 

I grew up in the middle class, white suburbs. Within my own blue collar family, education was valued but perceived as unattainable, even often undesirable. Nevertheless for the misfit who loved education (me), it was something that was generally valued in both my societal and family context.

 

I now live in the city. My neighborhood is primarily blue collar or unemployed. The further east you walk, the higher the concentration of unemployed or criminal. I am not far from what people would consider the "inner city" and have worked for ten years with a difficult, urban population. In this context, there are two key differences from your context: (1) Education is NOT valued here, and has not been valued for generations; (2) There is a high percentage of dysfunctional families here.

 

These two differences make the practical, day-to-day reality of school markedly different than for middle class Americans. A culture that does not understand the day-to-day reality of good education and that does not value education behaves very, very differently than a culture that does value education at some level AND understands the daily discipline at some level that is required to attain an adequate education.

 

I find that here, in this culture, the statement about fixing families is true--good education cannot happen until the culture of the family and the family support system changes in two intrinsic ways: (1) to value education; (2) to learn the daily discipline and focus needed to successfully gain an adequate education.

Edited November 21, 2009 by strider
Change wording to more accurately reflect socio-economic dynamic.

[kindermommy]

There are alot of great ideas on here. I haven't read them all so forgive me if this is a repeat. I think teachers should have a year round job and ps should be year round as well. They should have more smaller breaks throughout the year and maybe take one month off during the summer. That month should involve training for the teachers and time for tweaking their lessons. There are teachers that continue their education after becoming a teacher. But alot that I know take the summer off as their break. That's fine. But why not use some of the time to become a better and more knowledgeable teacher?

 

 

As a teacher, I always agreed year 'round school would be a better option for the students. The last half of May was wasted as everyone was "winding down" and the entire month of September (now August it seems!) was wasted reviewing and reteaching.

 

As far as teachers using their summers as breaks vs. more teacher training - I agree with that in theory. Teachers MUST continue to grow and learn. BUT I know sometimes I would attend a training inservice and come back energized and excited about new ideas and changes, only to be deflated because I was faced with the reality that the material I already HAD to teach in a very specific way, never allowed me the room or freedom to implement any new ideas.

 

Also, during the year teachers (at least in my district) are asked to stay late for meetings, open houses, assemblies, etc SO OFTEN. I would arrive at school at 7:00 am and on MOST days not leave until 5:00 (unless I had a late night meeting). Of course at least half of those 5:00 days, I was bringing work home. Our "planning period" (all of 40 minutes) was often taken by meeting with specialists and admin. It was neverending. So by summer I was so burnt out I needed a complete mental break from it all (hence the true NEED for a summer break)

 

Now I suppose I could have *not* worked so hard - many teachers didn't. But I wanted to be a great teacher. I wanted to do the job RIGHT. Sadly though, at the end of my teaching career I realized I was swimming upstream the whole time and never really getting anywhere. I mean, I am sure I made a difference, and my choice to give it 110% was far better than just giving 50%! BUT, in the end, I could never do the job WELL, because it was simply not humanly possible given the workload and the time to do it all in. After 10 years of hard work I felt like a great big dummy for thinking I could have done it ALL WELL and RIGHT (and had 10 years of frustration to look back on because I simply couldn't)

 

As far as administrators - at least in the districts I taught, they were overworked too, at least at the elementary level. So cutting an admin just meant that entire workload they carried moved to another admin who was already stretched very thin (I've seen that very thing happen). Things need to change from the TOP to see real change at the bottom.

 

If you couldn't already tell, my experience working in the system has left me with such a distaste for the current state of public education in so many areas - from the NCLB and the way textbook companies gouge the educational system, right down to the way I saw MANY (if not most) teachers "cattle herding" their students down the hall - yelling and intimidating them into "submission". When I left and had children, my view on the job I thought I was born to do (teach) went through not just an attitude change, but a complete rebirth. I still want to educate, and will do so with my own children, but when they get older, I plan to try to be involved with new and innovative educational options for children. Right now I have my sights set here:

 

Ambleside School

 

I apologize if I'm rambled a bit. This thread has me so pumped up! I think the ladies ideas in is thread are so wise and innovative! I realize most are "idealized" notions - we all know that change is going to be slow if it happens at all. But I thank God for those of us who can see the "other side" and are working for change, even just by homeschooling our own children and hoping those same children will impact the world in a better way by having had parents whose eyes were wide open :)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

What are you basing the "average worker" on? Are you basing it on those workers with the same degrees/training/experience?

 

I taught for 16 years and I have NO idea what you are talking about.

 

Dawn

 

I am basing it on similar degrees such as bachelor degrees. I feel that teachers pay should be comparable to other professions with similiar training and the like:) RNs in my area are just beginning to catch up to teachers and I can testify that we have never had cadillac health insurance benefits or pensions:) I also think that RNs have a career that is just as rigorous and more demanding in many ways based on my experience since RNs have to be available 356 days a year, 24 hours a day so to speak. Any job in nursing usually entails evening or night shifts plus every other weekend and every other holiday;) it is usually very hard to get a day job with no weekends and holidays even with years of experience as well. Plus the job is physically, emotionally, spiritually, and intellectually demanding. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that teachers have their plate full especially if there are unruly children or demanding parents, but nurses deal with these sort of things all of the time as well:) I guess I was just shocked recently to read of a teacher who made $70,000/year with raises every year plus had great health insurance and a pension plan that would pay 70% of salary at retirement. It was just hard to take since as a nurse who worked in critical care for many years I never had it that good. Although, the area I live in has been woefully behind in nursing salaries for decades and is only now starting to catch up. Then to top it off, the school board raises our taxes every year the maximum allowed by law:( What makes the tax raises even worse is that there were many years nurses in our area did not get raises.

 

Sorry to ramble:)

Edited November 21, 2009 by priscilla

[silvermine]

School choice.

 

Let people decide what's important to them and pick a school that matches. Ta da! No more fights over most of the stuff people fight over about with schools. And schools are no longer a virtual monopoly and have to actually compete for students/money.

[Ohdanigirl]

As for High School, you really can't make HS a 5 year program, but what many schools do is have ESL as a 2 hour class that gives them an English credit and an elective credit. That is kind of the best they are able to do.

 

I taught high school ESL for many years in Los Angeles.

 

It isn't a perfect system for sure.

 

Dawn

 

Yes I know, but it would be nice. I took in three of my husbands siblings at ager 13 when they came from Mexico. We put the first two in public school and I learned that the way it was done was a real problem. They learned no English at school and sat n the other classes not understanding a word. S even though they were at grade level n other areas the schools solution was to put them in remedial classes. I fought tooth and nail to have my sister in law retested a couple time the first year so they could change her English level according to what I had taught her AT HOME. By the end of the first year we had her in regular classes, but not all children have someone who know the language and can work with them at home. Sad to say, BIL only lived with us a few months. He stayed in school and was promoted each year. HE SPEAKS LITTLE ENGLISH AND CAN'T EEN READ A BOARD BOOK TO HIS SON. So he actually lost much of what I taught him.

 

On a high note, I taught the third at home and he was pretty fluent within a year. MAybe f they can't add a year they really need to make summer school mandatory and add a night school class until the student is able to understand the language. I just hate to see a smart child never graduate because they didn't learn English.

 

Danielle

[Firefly]

I like the idea of (beyond learning the basics, of course) students having a real, vested interest in their own education. Imagine a school full of kids that want to be there; that love what they're studying. So there would be aptitude testing and encouraging of strengths and areas of interest. Let them choose what they want to study and when. The teachers and classrooms would be there to facilitate, guide, and offer assistance. Ideally these would be people who are passionate about their field. Introduce apprenticeships and bring back voc schools.

 

Also, I agree with the poster(s) that said the focus of schools should be education, not day care (though I realize many families need this).

[pqr]

Privatize it.

 

Pay private schools 50% of what we give public schools and a bonus of another 40% based on performance.

 

Get the government and the NEA out of the schools.

[Stacy in NJ]

I find that here, in this culture, the statement about fixing families is true--good education cannot happen until the culture of the family and the family support system changes in two intrinsic ways: (1) to value education; (2) to learn the daily discipline and focus needed to successfully gain an adequate education.

 

Actually, there are charter schools all over the US that serve high poverty, low educational attainment populations with incredible success. While their strategies are to try to engage parents and cultivate those values you've listed above, they don't depend on parents or familes to reach individual students.

 

Here's a link to one of the most successful. Harlem Success Academy:http://www.harlemsuccess.org/

 

Having families and communities onboard is a definate advantage, but not absolutely necessary for high performing schools serving at risk populations.

[Lovedtodeath]

If less education were required to become a teacher, the days were shorter, and the classes were smaller, then there would be many more teachers available. Requiring 4 years of college filled with extra classes that have nothing to do with teaching 3rd grade students (music appreciation to fill out my credit requirements, come on) is ridiculous. Part of the problem with the American Education system is that everyone thinks that more is always better.

 

The public school system, although not perfect, is a blessing to many families and children who would most likely not have an education otherwise.

That is all good and fine, but I strongly feel that the schools should provide education, not child care.

 

Also, kids spend so much time at school there is very little time for parenting. Teachers expect the kid to come to school, sit down, and shut up. They are expected to be ready and eager to learn beginning at 4 (or even younger). And how much parenting can occur when a parent only spends a few hours in the week with their children? I think parenting takes longer than that. Part of a young child's upbringing includes learning how to behave, etc. If a child is spending over 7 hours per day at school (that is a huge hunk of the day) and then time in after school activities (not with their parents) then can these institutions really expect much parenting to be going on? And can they reasonably expect that they will not have to take over some of the aspects of child development that is often associated with parenting if the child is required to be away from the parent for so long?

 

I only know that when my child has an issue with a certain behavior it doesn't necessarily go away because I tell him to stop. I have to work with him on it. How can I do that if I am away from him for 10 hours in the day?

 

Maybe part of the problem is that we have gotten away from family as the main source/influence in a young person's life to the impersonal institution as the main source/influence in a young person's life.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:I could not agree more! Making shorter school days will solve a lot of problems in school and out. I am sick that they are talking of doing the opposite.

 

I cannot stress enough the reduction of the mandatory education of teachers. It would reduce the burden on the public education system. Besides the availability of teachers, there would most certainly be more private schools with lower tuitions.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[CalicoKat]

Hire teachers as professionals and treat them as professionals (well-trained, pay based on merit, etc.). .

Additionally a yearly review that's includes peer AND their student's parent's voice. Their pay increase should be based on their review as in any professional job.

[jamijoy]

I'm not sure how this would work, but doing away with "grades" and rather grouping by ability, meaning classes based on what level of math or reading, etc. instead of making a child repeat an entire grade or passing a child when they are not ready. Electives (language, music, etc) are done this way in high school and math in some cases, but I volunteered in my son's class room in kinder and first grade before we started homeschooling and it was crazy how many different levels those children were on and I can imagine it's very difficult for teachers to give each level enough attention. Some kids are learning to read by age four and others not until they are seven or eight or more just because of how they are wired, not that they are behind or taught "wrong" or anything.

 

That's one of my favorite things about homeschooling. My oldest son learned to read with little help at age four. My second son is six and it is not coming easily to him, yet I can teach them both to their ability and on their own timeline.

 

I also agree with year round school and shorter school days, more pay for teachers and less homework.

[Lovedtodeath]

I completely disagree about paying teachers more. What we need is a smaller teacher/student ratio. Is that really going to happen if we pay teachers more? Likely it will do the exact opposite.

 

There are plenty of people like myself, for example, who would do a great job at teaching a small group of students for a short day, but would never dream of applying for a teaching job the way they exist now. There are also people, like myself, who did not complete their teaching degree because it takes considerable time and money on their part. Time and money that are not needed to learn how to teach a small group of young students.

[Harriet Vane]

Actually, there are charter schools all over the US that serve high poverty, low educational attainment populations with incredible success. While their strategies are to try to engage parents and cultivate those values you've listed above, they don't depend on parents or familes to reach individual students.

 

Here's a link to one of the most successful. Harlem Success Academy:http://www.harlemsuccess.org/

 

Having families and communities onboard is a definate advantage, but not absolutely necessary for high performing schools serving at risk populations.

 

Yes, I am very familiar with such endeavors through personal involvement and through friends.

 

I would say that such schools are trying to do exactly what I said in my post--change the culture to value education, and change the culture to embrace the habits necessary to acquire a good education.

 

Charter schools start with a population that has demonstrated some level of valuing education--these are people that go out of their way to put their children into a charter school. Within that group there are still wide variances in how much education is valued and in how well the parents will understand the need for certain disciplines. Also, people who go out of their way to put their children in a charter school also tend to be people who value their children, so they tend to be people who are willing to put in more effort towards their child's success in that setting.

 

Bottom line: Much of the charter schools' successes are based upon the fact that their student population come from families who are either already value education or who are willing to learn this value and the habits that are necessary for educational success.

[Perry]

nm- can't find the data

Edited November 21, 2009 by Perry

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I would start with getting rid of "No Child Left Behind". I just don't think it did what it was intended to do. I would get rid of tenure--if a teacher doesn't do their job and grow in their job, then they should stop teaching. I had so many teachers in school who should have retired or been let go, but, they had tenure and they just stopped caring. It's not fair to the students.

[FairProspects]

The key to your statement here is your context, which I bolded/underlined above.

 

I grew up in the middle class, white suburbs. Within my own blue collar family, education was valued but perceived as unattainable, even often undesirable. Nevertheless for the misfit who loved education (me), it was something that was generally valued in both my societal and family context.

 

I now live in the city. My neighborhood is primarily blue collar or unemployed. The further east you walk, the higher the concentration of unemployed or criminal. I am not far from what people would consider the "inner city" and have worked for ten years with a difficult, urban population. In this context, there are two key differences from your context: (1) Education is NOT valued here, and has not been valued for generations; (2) There is a high percentage of dysfunctional families here.

 

These two differences make the practical, day-to-day reality of school markedly different than for middle class Americans. A culture that does not understand the day-to-day reality of good education and that does not value education behaves very, very differently than a culture that does value education at some level AND understands the daily discipline at some level that is required to attain an adequate education.

 

I find that here, in this culture, the statement about fixing families is true--good education cannot happen until the culture of the family and the family support system changes in two intrinsic ways: (1) to value education; (2) to learn the daily discipline and focus needed to successfully gain an adequate education.

 

:iagree:

We are in an urban area and this culture/poverty/dysfunctional families are major issues that affect the quality of education and the public schools. The school cannot be solely responsible for educating when all work will be undone the second they leave school grounds.