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Ack - I can't believe I'm asking this. My dd is taking an online French class for French IV. Previous years have been a combination of Rosetta Stone, some French grammar books, some French vocab books, and French in Action. The description of this online class sounded good. She's finding the teacher doesn't correct anybody's writing or pronunciation (and this is supposed to be an AP class!).

 

So... she'd like to supplement this class with some composition in French. Google provided more options than I would have thought. So what do you recommend? It doesn't have to be a composition/writing book per se, just provide lots of writing practice :) She doesn't want a French writing practice forum :001_smile:

 

Thanks!

Edited by readwithem
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What is the difference between a French composition program and an ordinary English writing program? What would the program provide that an English writing program doesn't, other than a little writing vocabulary like essay, expository, paragraph, etc.? (This isn't meant as a rhetorical question. I would really like to know. I am currently trying to teach my son to write in French.)

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Cleo - You have to be 16? Am I interpreting this correctly? And it is free? And there is a placement test? And there are two versions, one self-teaching and one with a tutor? Do you know if the whole thing download at once for you to do at your leisure or is it fed to you on a schedule? And do they keep track of who takes the course and what grades they received or is it like the MIT openware, where the whole course is posted for people to use as they please?

 

Readwiththem - Is your daughter 16?

 

-Nan

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Thanks Cleo and Nan. My dd is 17.

 

I guess what I want is something along the lines of Jensens Format Grammar, but for French and more at the sentence composition level. Does that make sense?

 

I guess the difference would be that English is her native language and she has a very good grasp of grammar and sentence structure in English. So I want something that will help her fine-tune her writing skills, using the right tense, putting the words in proper order, etc. But not a full blown course, just something to supplement.

 

Does that make more sense? Honestly I don't know WHAT I want :p

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in the books we've used, the French format is much more structured.

 

For example for argumentative writing, they have these lists of words you use to introduce the argument, which are fairly specific, for the argument to which they are to be applied.

 

They're called "connecteurs logiques" eg. if you are making a contradiction or opposition, here is the list

mais, or

cependant, pourtant, néanmoins, du reste, d’ailleurs, en revanche, au contraire

quoique, bien que, tandis que, alors que

Then there are other ones for cause, consequence, illustration, alternative, addition and the conclusion...

 

It all makes a lot of sense, it just seems more formalized and itemized than in English writing. There is more weight applied if you use the wrong one. Probably it is harder for me being a non-native speaker. Probably for maternal tongue speakers it seems natural and it is only my sloppy understanding...

 

I only write this to give you a brief idea of potential differences.

 

Then of course there is the difference in the perception of a "run-on". You can have a one page sentence in French literature and they think nothing of it.

 

And I find the introduction of ideas in general to be much more developed. That's probably too vague a notion and I have to get off now. Just thought I'd add food for thought.

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Sigh. It doesn't surprise me at all that they teach writing in a more logical fashion. My youngest noticed how nice and logical French was as he was learning it. It makes sense that it spills over into their writing. Thank you, Joan, for the description. I always waffle between teaching writing in a more formalized way (which is easier in some ways) and teaching it in a less formal way leaving room for my children to play with the nuances of their word choices.

-Nan

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that I only answered one part of your question and in a way it is not relevant to the AP exam.

 

My son took the AP French last May and I think that they didn't really test him on the type of French writing that I was talking about. (It's more equivalent to maternal tongue high school French). And my assessment of the AP is that it is about 8th grade level maternal tongue material wise and 9th grade speed/intensity wise.

 

I think if you focus on good French grammar and the things you find in the Barron's type practice books, your daughter should do well.

 

The more she practices speaking with proper French (vs translated) and reading French books, the better for the AP.

 

The books I'm familiar with are in French and tend to have lots of other material besides just composition (rédaction).

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You might want to take a look at

http://www.cned.fr/fle/Index-appr.htm

Warning, it's in French ;-)

 

Sorry I didn't respond to you directly previously, Cleo. Yes she did look at the website - thank you so much. I think it's a bit above her head at the moment (yes she's a bit like Goldilocks in wanting something "just right"). I've bookmarked it though - you never know how things will be a few months from now :)

 

Thanks so much for your input!! And I'm glad you haven't totally abandoned WTM for the SL board:001_smile:

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that I only answered one part of your question and in a way it is not relevant to the AP exam.

 

My son took the AP French last May and I think that they didn't really test him on the type of French writing that I was talking about. (It's more equivalent to maternal tongue high school French). And my assessment of the AP is that it is about 8th grade level maternal tongue material wise and 9th grade speed/intensity wise.

 

I think if you focus on good French grammar and the things you find in the Barron's type practice books, your daughter should do well.

 

The more she practices speaking with proper French (vs translated) and reading French books, the better for the AP.

 

The books I'm familiar with are in French and tend to have lots of other material besides just composition (rédaction).

 

Thanks so much Joan. The AP exam is only part of her concern, she really would like more writing evaluation in general from her class. We had talked about looking at AP review books - we'll probably defer that till after the holidays. :lol:

 

Ironically she has two writing assignments due in December so here's hoping the teacher steps up to the plate and gives her more feedback than she's done previously. :tongue_smilie:

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she really would like more writing evaluation in general from her class.

 

Here is a book we're using now which is meant for English speakers. It's not composition per se, but it methodically goes through areas where we have the most problems.

 

There is a 'traduisez' practice at the end of each section which is very useful. You can see where you tend to make errors.

 

The book and

http://www.amazon.ca/DIFFIC-EXPL-FRANC-AVANCE-Alain-Vercollier/dp/209033701X/ref=pd_sim_b_4

 

the corrections (couldn't get the hyper link to work)

http://www.amazon.ca/DIFFIC-EXPL-FRANC-AVANCE-CORRIGES-Kay-Bourlier/dp/209033844X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259098331&sr=1-1

 

He goes through them orally. Then he writes out the ones he missed on the exercises.

 

This says for advanced level, but there is no lower level....

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What is the difference between a French composition program and an ordinary English writing program?

 

I think that's the wrong question to ask. French composition is a way to learn proper written French, which is different from oral French.

When speaking, one would tend to use the 'passé composé', but when writing, one needs to use the 'passé simple'. Sentences are longer when writing French, than when speaking it. It's quite a step up actually.

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It was something I was curious about. We've been talking about the differences in the way grammar is taught (or not taught LOL). I wondered about writing. At this point, I am wondering if there is anything we do teach better in the US. It seems like the question of education elsewhere versus education in the US is reducing down to a question of rigor versus not-squashing-creativity-and-interest. Since I think creativity and interest are more likely to happen when one isn't struggling with the basics, but I also want my child to be a creative and self-educating adult, this is something I think about a lot, especially as I try to raise the bar for my son as he does high school work.

-Nan

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At this point, I am wondering if there is anything we do teach better in the US.

-Nan

 

I've been thinking about this for days, just hardly ever have time to write...It was very interesting for me to find out that my ds2 had not learned about the scientific method until the end of high school. And I talked with a recent French bacc grad who only learned about the scientific method at the end of high school as well.

 

Now they have recently started teaching it in jr hi here(I'm speaking Geneva and don't know other cantons), just last year! But hasn't it been taught in grade school in the US for years now? Certainly it has been taught in jr hi and high school for years.

 

Science fairs have been unheard of here. Though they started something recently here in CH but it seems to be for the "elite" and for the whole of Switzerland had maybe 100? participants.

 

One big difference I see society wise is the "do it yourself" mentality that is big in the US and taught somehow (school, home,..?). It ranges from build your own house to teach your own children to be your own psychiatrist with the help of a book. I think this is one reason why homeschooling has not yet really caught on, here on the continent. (I can't speak for the UK, but they were ahead of the continent even with the agricultural and industrial revolutions, so maybe that's why they are with home ed as well.) People leave things to the "experts", even when the "experts" are failing.

 

.. when writing, one needs to use the 'passé simple'.

 

I only write this for anglophones who could end up being scared off writing with the words "passe simple"...

 

Here I think there are two perspectives.

 

If you talk about sheer numbers of books, then this is probably accurate as so many books fall under the category of "literature"/stories where they tend to use "passe simple" (but can also use "present de narration"(present)).

 

But if you talk about all different kinds of writing, then my impression is that it is incorrect to say it is in "passe simple". Generally speaking, other types of writing - persuasive, expository, injoncif, etc. do use passe compose or imparfait. And the format writing book mentioned above is about expository writing, so for that type you wouldn't need ps.

 

HTH,

Joan

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The scientific method shows up in elementary schools in the US.

 

And do-it-yourself-ness... I guess that matches what my husband has noticed about the European engineers he's worked with. He works with start-up companies and he says the ones he happens to have worked with have a hard time with the start-up company do-it-yourself mentality. Startups tackle big problems with very little outside support. You have to wade in and make guesses and start trying things. He's only worked with a few, though. It may well be that the better European engineers don't wind up at tiny US companies.

 

Obviously good French writing is not anything I am capable of teaching GRIN. It is interesting to hear about it, though. Is there more difference between spoken French and written French than there is between spoken English and written English? Assuming we are talking about an average middle class family and say textbook French, something moderately formal but not super formal?

 

-Nan

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is an American idea being exported to Europe. So that fits with your husband's experience...hmmm. My son is in engineering....Maybe he can do a year in the US.

 

Cleo still has much more experience than I do in comparing spoken and written French. I just approach it with a foreign eye...

 

But I will add that there is a huge difference between the street French and the "courant" French - properly spoken French. And I understand there are different levels of that as well.

 

You can hardly understand the conversation between youths on the street. There's a book called Le francais que l'on parle which has the page of street lingo and the opposite page of properly spoken French. The street lingo would or should not be written.

 

two examples

J'ai bouffe un truc qu'est pas passe. = J'ai mange quelque chose que je n'ai pas digere. (sorry about lack of accents for compose, etc.)

 

C'est vachement chouette! Je t'imagine lisant ton canard comme un papi ou devant ta teloche en train de zaper. = C'est tres mignon! Je t'imagine lisant ton journal comme un grand-pere ou devant ta television en changeant de chaine constamment.

 

Here's a quick article, and if you search under that phrase, you'll find more.

 

That's for fun, but your son might have learned some of that steet lingo in his walking....

 

Peace,

Joan

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LOL! I think even I did! I understood the vachement and the bouffe un truc. The French who spoke some English said they could understand my son and I when we spoke to them, but couldn't understand us when we spoke to each other, so I suspect we do some of that, too. Or it might have been just a matter of speed, slurriness, and family shortcuts. Thank you for the site. That will be fun to look at.

-Nan

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