s/o submission poll - cc - "oneness"

[freetobeme]

can oneness (matthew 19:5-6) fit with the ephesians passage IF the submission is NOT mutual, but rather "man over woman" (for lack of better terminology)?

i have enjoyed the submission conversation. as i am attempting to put my life back together and understand what is really meant by the ephesians passage in particular, i have been given much to think about. . .from my personal experience, i can't see how there can be oneness without mutual submission. and i am trying to figure out how the headship of a man OVER his wife leads to oneness. is there hierarchy in ONEness? (the two shall become one as it is written. . .)

studied Bible students welcome here!!!!! :001_smile:

[BMW]

I am speaking from personal experience and my opinion...

 

Doubtful. If a man is OVER the wife in a patriarchal way, how can there be oneness? Of course we'll get responses that share the people they know who are patriarchal and loving and have beautiful lives... BUT, in my personal experience and in my opinion, it just doesn't go together.

 

In the patriarchal setting of my first marriage, with teaching that put us on that path... I was told not to speak up... never to question dh's decisions and choices... I was expected to keep house, raise children and sweetly serve my husband, without a voice. My husband even told me, as we walked out in public, that my place to walk was a few paces behind! I was told, "I am captain of this ship" and many times when I did voice my concerns over his leadership I heard, "Suck it up and do it". And I heard, "It's great to be the king!" Yep, he gloated over his almighty role of being the head. I know of 4 other families being taught at the same time, same place who suffered from the abuse. And, my dh loved the joke of the jew who woke up thanking God that he wasn't a gentile, dog or woman. I didn't respond to the first thread... This morning I feel like speaking up.

 

I know that not all families who live with the man as the "head" have the abuses. I believe the potential for the abuse gives us good reason to avoid teaching a woman's submission without a husband's devotion. If a husband adores his wife and would give his life for her, then he wouldn't lead her abusively and he would care what her opinions were... there WOULD be oneness. I believe the best teaching is scriptural... husbands lay down your lives for your wifes and women submit (my view of submit is giving honor and respect and when you disagree, let the man lead)

 

I teach my daughters that they need to know finances, have an ability to earn an income and make decisions under many life scenarios because if they have children, they need to know how to take care of themselves... in case something happens to the husband.

 

That said, I also believe a man's role IS to provide income and I believe that it is the primary role of the wife to serve in the home.

 

Sorry, this response isn't based on Bible study, it is based on life. I have studied the scriptures. I have agonized over them. I LOVE my Heavenly Father and am proud to be a Christian.

 

**Back to the OP... If, just for the sake of looking at another POV, the husband is OVER the wife BUT he adores her and lays his life down for her and simultaneously LEADS, I believe there can be oneness... because the wife is respected as a person. Without that mutual love and respect, no oneness...**

[Jugglin'5]

can oneness (matthew 19:5-6) fit with the ephesians passage IF the submission is NOT mutual, but rather "man over woman" (for lack of better terminology)?

i have enjoyed the submission conversation. as i am attempting to put my life back together and understand what is really meant by the ephesians passage in particular, i have been given much to think about. . .from my personal experience, i can't see how there can be oneness without mutual submission. and i am trying to figure out how the headship of a man OVER his wife leads to oneness. is there hierarchy in ONEness? (the two shall become one as it is written. . .)

studied Bible students welcome here!!!!! :001_smile:

 

Well, but see it is not supposed to be an either/or. The man has the headship, but their is still supposed to be mutual submission, with particular emphases on sacrificial love and understanding on the part of the husband, and respect/submission on the part of the wife.

 

 

From Ken Sande:

By God's design, man and woman are one in essence (see Genesis 2:23), and are therefore equal in dignity, value, and glory (see Gal. 3:26-29). Although God himself has assigned husbands and wives different roles within marriage, the essential unity of man and woman leaves absolutely no room for concepts of inferiority or superiority.

Christ himself vividly demonstrated this "different but equal" concept. Jesus was and is one in essence with the Father, yet Jesus was "sent" by the Father (see John 3:16) and willingly submitted to Him without protest (see Luke 22:42; John 14:31; 1 Cor. 15:28). (To submit means simply to yield, that is, not to insist on getting your own way.) The same may be said of the Holy Spirit; He is one in essence with the Father and the Son, yet He was "sent" by them (see John 14:26; 16:7) and willingly submitted. Similarly, Jesus was commended for being in submission to His parents, which certainly did not make Him inferior to them (see Luke 2:51).

 

Really, I would recommend the whole article.

http://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Articles/Love-and-Respect-in-Marriage

Edited November 18, 2009 by Jugglin'5

[LinRTX]

I always see the oneness as the man and wife are one unit--evrything belongs to the unit. As to the submission part, someone has to lead which means the other follows (submits). If a decision has to be made and the two disagree, there can be quite a lot of stife and discord. The oneness is destroyed. However if someone has the headship role, their decision is the one to follow. Th wife who submits then lovingly supports her husbands decision. She doesn't try to take the reins and go the other way or gossip and tear him down.

 

I would not want the headship--knowing that I am ultimately responsible for every decision made in our family.

 

Unfortunately, we live in a sinful world and some men do take the submit verse too far. They forget their part of the bargain, where they are supposed to love their wife as Christ loves the church. Christ gave His life for the church. He also gave up his heavenly home for a time to live on earth as a poor man. He came to serve and to save. Any man who is not following this does not understand the passage on the wife's submission. Both play a role in marriage.

 

Linda

[freetobeme]

thanks for all your thoughts. . .i think i almost know what i believe!

[angela in ohio]

can oneness (matthew 19:5-6) fit with the ephesians passage IF the submission is NOT mutual, but rather "man over woman" (for lack of better terminology)?

i have enjoyed the submission conversation. as i am attempting to put my life back together and understand what is really meant by the ephesians passage in particular, i have been given much to think about. . .from my personal experience, i can't see how there can be oneness without mutual submission. and i am trying to figure out how the headship of a man OVER his wife leads to oneness. is there hierarchy in ONEness? (the two shall become one as it is written. . .)

studied Bible students welcome here!!!!! :001_smile:

 

I actually have trouble seeing the opposite. To me, oneness is inherent in the submission of a wife to her husband and the love of a husband for his wife. Dh and I are two halves of one whole. Most people I know who believe that a married couple become one also believe in a wife's submission. I have personally never seen one espoused without the other.