5th Grade History Ancients Questions

[Heather in WI]

Gosh, I've been posting on TWTM boards (going back to the old board, obviously) since my oldest was three. I can't believe that I'm finally going to begin a new section of TWTM next year ..... the LOGIC stage. {smile}

 

I'm trying to get my head around & beginning to plan for next year's history. I will be teaching both a third grader and a fifth grader for history. I want to use SOTW: Ancients with both, but add in The Usborne Internet-Linked Encyclopedia of World History or the Dorling Kindersley History of the World for my fifth grader.

 

I just finished re-reading TWTM sections on logic stage history & reading and would like any advice I could get from those that have been through this before.

 

So, my questions are, what does your typical week schedule look like?

 

Do you have tips on "The Notebook"?

 

Opinions on Usborne or the DK book? Recommend either over the other one?

 

The Jackdaw Portfolios are expensive. Are they worth it?

 

For books for my fifth grader, I have listed (he is a strong reader):

 

Augustus Caesar's World -Foster

Tales from Ancient Egypt - Green

The Golden Goblet - McGraw

The Cat of Bubastes - Henty

Tales from China - Birch

Tales from Japan - McAlpine

Tales from India - Gray

Tales from Africa - Arnott

D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths - D'Aulaire

Famous Men of Greece - Haaren

The Golden Fleece - Colum

Tales of Greek Heroes - Green

The Tale of Troy - Green

The Trojan Wars - Coolidge

The Children's Homer - Colum

Black Ships Before Troy - Sutcliff

In Search of a Homeland: The Story of the Aeneid - Lively

The Last Days of Socrates - Plato

Famous Men of Rome - Haaren

The Young Carthaginian - Henty

Beric the Briton - Henty

Caesar's Gallic Wars - Coolidge

Cleopatra - Vennema

Outcast - Sutcliff

For the Temple - Henty

The Eagle of the Ninth - Sutcliff

The Silver Branch - Sutcliff

 

Any books that are *must read* that I missed for this time period? Any of these books that are 'meh' and you'd skip?

 

 

 

~Heather

Edited November 16, 2009 by Heather in WI

[Colleen in NS]

Hi Heather,

 

I had a 5th and a 2nd grader last year. What I did was read SOTW to both, then I had my 5th grader read the corresponding section from the KF (red) book, and the 2nd grader read the corresponding section in the Usborne book. The 5th grader would then write the dates from KF on his timeline. (I'd read SOTW on a Friday evening during our read aloud time, then they did their separate reading/timelining on Monday afternoons during "nap" time). The 5th grader would also pick a related history book from our library pile, and make a one-level outline (Monday morning) of about 5 or 6 paragraphs. On Tuesdays, he would pick more reading, and write a narration about something related. For the 2nd grader, I folded history reading into her WWE lessons for Mon. or Tues..

 

This year, I took a new idea from the new WTM - I have my 6th grader write a "list of facts" from the KF book, too. It replaces the outlining of the spine, and it still gives a general overview of history. The outlining practice comes from supplementary reading.

 

And in general, they take history/science/literature/art/music books with them to their rooms for "nap" time each day. I tend to reserve a lot of books from the library for them. I like your list, and I think I found a lot of those at the library.

 

As for the choice between Usborne and DK - it depends on how you want to use your spine. Is it just for reading? Usborne might be OK, if you supplement it a lot. DK has more reading in it, plus interesting pictures. Are you looking for a spine to outline? It might be easier to outline sections of SOTW rather than Usborne or DK. Usborne or DK would probably be fine for making a "list of facts" if that's a route you want to go.

 

I set up the notebook pretty much the same as shown in WTM. I added a "list of facts" section this year. Outlines don't have a separate section (because they aren't the general history overview for us), they just fit into the other sections.

 

I had a look at the Jackdaw website last year and said, "no way, too expensive." I'm sure they are great to use, but I decided to use the website for primary sources that is recommended in WTM. I keep it bookmarked and we look for something on there periodically, have a read and a discussion about it based on the questions in WTM, and I have ds write a narration about it. We had a hard time getting going with it last year, because I didn't really "get" how to do it, but this year is better. I typed up the questions to have on hand, so now the "primary source reading/discussion/writing" happens about every two weeks or so, folded into my weekly writing schedule (Thursdays are narration days, so I alternate primary source with literature discussion/narration). Hope that makes sense.

 

I'm enjoying this stage.

[Stacy in NJ]

You have a lot of overlap in Greek mythology and Homer.

 

D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths - D'Aulaire

The Golden Fleece - Colum

Tales of Greek Heroes - Green

The Tale of Troy - Gree

The Trojan Wars - Coolidge

The Children's Homer - Colum

Black Ships Before Troy - Sutcliff

 

D'Aulaire's and Tales of Greek Heros overlap. The Tale of Troy, The Trojan Wars, The Children's Homer and Black Ships all cover roughly the same material as well.

 

I would probably eliminate a couple of these and add in something like the Lamb's (Shakespeare) version of Julius Ceasar and the Bronze Bow.

[Heather in WI]

Thank you for replying. This is exactly the type of advice I was hoping to receive.

 

You have a lot of overlap in Greek mythology and Homer.

 

D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths - D'Aulaire

The Golden Fleece - Colum

Tales of Greek Heroes - Green

The Tale of Troy - Green

The Trojan Wars - Coolidge

The Children's Homer - Colum

Black Ships Before Troy - Sutcliff

 

D'Aulaire's and Tales of Greek Heroes overlap. The Tale of Troy, The Trojan Wars, The Children's Homer and Black Ships all cover roughly the same material as well.

 

I added the D'Aulaire's book because I saw it recommended on a lot of other lists. Since SWB recommended Tales of Greek Heroes, should I assume that is the better book and cross off the D'Aulaires? (I will most likely buy all of the books next year as I am expecting a new little one in May & am not sure how much time I'll have for frequent library trips.) Any advice on which to pitch of the other books?

 

I would probably eliminate a couple of these and add in something like the Lamb's (Shakespeare) version of Julius Caesar and the Bronze Bow.

 

Thanks. We have the Lamb's book. I didn't think of using that and I'll check out the Bronze Bow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had a 5th and a 2nd grader last year. What I did was read SOTW to both, then I had my 5th grader read the corresponding section from the KF (red) book, and the 2nd grader read the corresponding section in the Usborne book. The 5th grader would then write the dates from KF on his timeline. (I'd read SOTW on a Friday evening during our read aloud time, then they did their separate reading/timelining on Monday afternoons during "nap" time). The 5th grader would also pick a related history book from our library pile, and make a one-level outline (Monday morning) of about 5 or 6 paragraphs. On Tuesdays, he would pick more reading, and write a narration about something related. For the 2nd grader, I folded history reading into her WWE lessons for Mon. or Tues..

 

This year, I took a new idea from the new WTM - I have my 6th grader write a "list of facts" from the KF book, too. It replaces the outlining of the spine, and it still gives a general overview of history. The outlining practice comes from supplementary reading.

 

Can I say I'm hyperventilating now? Eeek! {smile}

I know I can move on to the logic stage with my oldest, it just seems so daunting right now! {deep breath} Ok, Let me get this straight:

 

Day 1: Read SOTW and Corresponding Usborne/KF/DK book. Make list of facts and add to notebook. Add information to timeline. Mapwork.

 

Day 2. Read book related to history reading and make one level outline of one page of text. (Is it accurate to say that all of the books I have listed above would only be for the literature tie-in to history and are not utilized for any of these steps? The books used in Day 2 and 3 are non-fiction, right?)

 

Day 3. Read a different related history book, right? Do narration (Is this the written summary?) of book.

 

 

As for the choice between Usborne and DK - it depends on how you want to use your spine. Is it just for reading? Usborne might be OK, if you supplement it a lot. DK has more reading in it, plus interesting pictures. Are you looking for a spine to outline? It might be easier to outline sections of SOTW rather than Usborne or DK. Usborne or DK would probably be fine for making a "list of facts" if that's a route you want to go.

 

I think I'd like if for the list of facts to use on day one. It sounds like I should go ahead with the DK -- he's a strong reader and great pictures are a plus.

 

I set up the notebook pretty much the same as shown in WTM. I added a "list of facts" section this year. Outlines don't have a separate section (because they aren't the general history overview for us), they just fit into the other sections.

 

I had a look at the Jackdaw website last year and said, "no way, too expensive."

 

Good to know that it wasn't only me!

 

I'm sure they are great to use, but I decided to use the website for primary sources that is recommended in WTM. I keep it bookmarked and we look for something on there periodically, have a read and a discussion about it based on the questions in WTM, and I have ds write a narration about it. We had a hard time getting going with it last year, because I didn't really "get" how to do it, but this year is better. I typed up the questions to have on hand, so now the "primary source reading/discussion/writing" happens about every two weeks or so, folded into my weekly writing schedule (Thursdays are narration days, so I alternate primary source with literature discussion/narration). Hope that makes sense.

 

I'm enjoying this stage.

 

I'll take a look at the website. I want to enjoy this stage! I feel like I'm in that position where I don't quite 'get' it yet, but hopefully it will become more concrete as we venture in. History is so easy in the grammar stage! We go boom-boom-boom through the SOTW text & activity book and we're done. It just seems not so clear cut next year.

[Stacy in NJ]

I would probably choose D'Aulaires' over Tales of Greek Heros. I like the illustrations in the D'Aulaires' books and would own them simply for that reason. By the by, another option would be to get the audio version of D'Aulaires' from the Metropolitan Museum and listen to that for fun, and then have him read Tales of Greek Heros.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Stacy in NJ
apostrophies

[Sorbie]

 

This year, I took a new idea from the new WTM - I have my 6th grader write a "list of facts" from the KF book, too. It replaces the outlining of the spine, and it still gives a general overview of history. The outlining practice comes from supplementary reading.

 

 

This is what we did and it is much easier than trying to outline from KF. We use Dorothy Mills' books for outlining.

 

As far as D'Aulaire or Green, I think it depends on the age of the child. My younger boys prefer D'Aulaire while my older two like Colum and Green. You also might want to look at Peter Connolly's Roman World Series. My boys really enjoyed them when we covered ancients last year.

[MamaSheep]

:lurk5:

[KarenNC]

:lurk5:

[Heather in WI]

By the by, another option would be to get the audio version of D'Aulaires' from the Metropolitan Museum and listen to that for fun, and then have him read Tales of Greek Heroes.

 

Ooh! That's a great idea.

 

This is what we did and it is much easier than trying to outline from KF. We use Dorothy Mills' books for outlining.

 

Which Dorothy Mills' books?

 

As far as D'Aulaire or Green, I think it depends on the age of the child. My younger boys prefer D'Aulaire while my older two like Colum and Green. You also might want to look at Peter Connolly's Roman World Series. My boys really enjoyed them when we covered ancients last year.

 

So, maybe D'Aulaires' for my younger and the Colum and Green books for my older? I'll check out the Roman Series books, too. Thanks!

[Colleen in NS]

Can I say I'm hyperventilating now? Eeek! {smile}

I know I can move on to the logic stage with my oldest, it just seems so daunting right now! {deep breath}

 

Nah, you can do it! It's a switch in thinking, for sure, but once you figure out a routine, it gets easier. I look back at last year as the transition-to-logic-stage year - there were bumps as I figured things out, but it's alright. I mean, I think we may have talked about two primary sources the whole year and I didn't do very well with the lit. discussion/writing thing, but I got it straightened out for this year. So, we have three years to develop all that and it's OK. So ds didn't read many primary sources last year - as long as I teach him the method over the next three years, he'll be able to read any primary source he wants throughout life, and be able to evaluate it. Same with lit. evaluations.

 

Ok, Let me get this straight:

 

Day 1: Read SOTW and Corresponding Usborne/KF/DK book. Make list of facts and add to notebook. Add information to timeline. Mapwork.

 

Day 2. Read book related to history reading and make one level outline of one page of text. (Is it accurate to say that all of the books I have listed above would only be for the literature tie-in to history and are not utilized for any of these steps? The books used in Day 2 and 3 are non-fiction, right?)

 

Day 3. Read a different related history book, right? Do narration (Is this the written summary?) of book.

 

Friday evening fun read-aloud time: Read SOTW to both kids

 

Monday: have ds pick related non-fiction history library book or World Book encyclopedia article (info. or biography), me pick 5 or 6 paragraphs for him to read and one-level outline. Naptime: Have ds read related KF pages, have him write "list of facts," have him put dates on timeline.

 

Oops, I only added in the "list of facts" for 6th grade, after I read the new WTM. I will confess, it's quite a bit of writing for Mondays, but ds types his outlines, so it makes it a bit easier. I'm still on the fence about including the "list of facts." But I like that it provides an overview of history for him to look back on. I don't think it's essential, but I do think outlining is essential.

 

Tuesday: Have ds pick related non-fiction history library book or World Book encyclopedia article (info. or biography), read 12-20 paragraphs or so, write grammar-stage style narration. A paragraph of about 3-5 sentences last year. Naptime: more history reading is in the reading pile.

 

Most of your booklist looks like it is either literature or historical fiction. I use non-fiction info. or biographies - factual information - for the outlines and narrations. Lit. narrations come later in the week.

 

It just seems not so clear cut next year.

 

It was a learning curve for me. I'm still working some things out. I only recently typed up pages of questions to keep in my notebook. I typed up the questions to use for outlining (from new WTM) so I can hand that to ds when he does his outline (after I worked with him a lot on understanding how to do it first), I typed up the lit. discussion questions, the biography discussion questions, and the primary source discussion questions. Being able to whip out a page while sitting on the couch with him while looking over a book/document just made things so much easier for some reason. I can get my thoughts together faster than when I tried to find the right page in WTM. It also just takes practice to get comfortable doing the whole discussion thing. But it is getting more natural. I think 5th grade was a transition for ds, too, not just me. I also learned from SWB at the PHP conference NOT to bombard our kids with ALL the discussion questions EVERY time ("Oh, so THAT was the problem last year!!! No wonder ds hated discussion times!!"). Start with one or two and let you and child get used to the process. Add in another question later on, gradually. Save "evaluation" questions for late 6th/7th/8th grade. Her advice at the conference was quite a bit more relaxed than what you read about in WTM.

[Lovedtodeath]

Here is a great thread about implementing logic stage history and primary sources, etc. that I kept.

[Heather in WI]

Colleen, you are an absolute gem! Thank you so very much.

 

And, Lovedtodeath, that link is fantastic. I tried searching the forums before I posted and didn't see it. Thank you very much for finding and posting it.

[Kate in Arabia]

I have a 6th grader and a 3rd grader, we're working on SOTW 3. For our history notebooks, I took apart the Activity Guide, inserted a couple of forms (one for narrations, one for extra readings) with each chapter, and had it bound as a separate notebook.

 

We read from SOTW text; complete mapwork (I sometimes give my older extra work, like naming additional countries on the map); complete coloring page while I read aloud from a supplemental book.

 

I generally have a small stack of books for each boy to read, with higher level ones for my older. I also try very hard to find a documentary or related movie; my older in particular loves history documentaries, I require him to watch the whole thing while my younger has to start it but can leave if it doesn't interest him. (I never have to "require" him to do it, he watches and re-watches history documentaries in his spare time.)

 

My older is also taking notes/writing summaries from the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia.

 

I am also really enjoying this phase with my older, because the interest is much more, and deeper, kwim? And they can start making mental connections to things they have already learned.

[HSDCY]

Thank you very much for starting this thread. We are going to do ancient next year for 6th grade, and I am enjoying reading all the replies.

[Heather in WI]

Thanks Kate!

 

I have a 6th grader and a 3rd grader, we're working on SOTW 3. For our history notebooks, I took apart the Activity Guide, inserted a couple of forms (one for narrations, one for extra readings) with each chapter, and had it bound as a separate notebook.

 

Wow, that is a great idea!

 

I generally have a small stack of books for each boy to read, with higher level ones for my older. I also try very hard to find a documentary or related movie; my older in particular loves history documentaries, I require him to watch the whole thing while my younger has to start it but can leave if it doesn't interest him. (I never have to "require" him to do it, he watches and re-watches history documentaries in his spare time.)

 

My oldest likes documentaries, too. I think I remember someone compiling a list of documentaries for different time periods. I'll have to search the boards.

 

My older is also taking notes/writing summaries from the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia.

 

Urgh! I just realized that the book I planned on using (the DK one) is OOP. Everyone else has mentioned the KF book, but I didn't put 2 & 2 together until just now. I guess we'll be going with that one!

 

I am also really enjoying this phase with my older, because the interest is much more, and deeper, kwim? And they can start making mental connections to things they have already learned.

 

Yes! This is what I can't wait to have with my oldest. It is a joy to teach him as he is getting older and we are just beginning to have meaningful discussions. I have the feeling that the best is yet to come (if I can only get this figured out, LOL!).

 

 

P.S. Has anyone bought an encyclopedia set? My dh gave me permission to buy one for next year, but I'm not sure what to look for. SWB recommends the World Book or Encyclopaedia Britannica. Has anyone used these and have a strong preference?

[Colleen in NS]

P.S. Has anyone bought an encyclopedia set? My dh gave me permission to buy one for next year, but I'm not sure what to look for. SWB recommends the World Book or Encyclopaedia Britannica. Has anyone used these and have a strong preference?

 

I did, but I got them used. Actually, now that I think about it, they were free. I have both World Book (1993) and Britannica (1985). For now, I figure the age doesn't matter SO much, as we are using them mostly for gaining info. and outlining/narration practice. Ideally, I'd like a new set when they get to high school, but I don't know if that will happen.

 

SWB recommends both in WTM. I have found Britannica to be difficult for ds11 - he doesn't like reading it as much as he likes reading WB. But, we have used it at times when we couldn't find something in WB. And then, I would scan through the article and find paragraphs that would be relevant to what he needed, so he wouldn't get discouraged with trying to find stuff himself. I don't want it to be a chore. He loves reading the WB books. And they are easy to outline/narrate from.

[Heather in WI]

Colleen, again, thank you! :)

[Strawberry Queen]

I've been enjoying the discussion. Thanks for the great info. I'm also heading into the logic-stage with a 3rd and 5th grader next year. I wanted to add that some libraries include online encyclopedia subscriptions in their collections. Our library had WB and Brit. but now only has WB as Brit was discontinued. So, check out your library services and you might get lucky. BTW, my library listed them online under the category of databases.

 

HTH

[Heather in WI]

I wanted to add that some libraries include online encyclopedia subscriptions in their collections. Our library had WB and Brit. but now only has WB as Brit was discontinued. So, check out your library services and you might get lucky. BTW, my library listed them online under the category of databases.

 

 

Thanks! That's definitely something to check out! :-)