Help, please! Sticky situation with 13yo DD (adult content)

[AlmiraGulch]

I certainly remember reading stuff like that at her age and even reading all of my Moms medical textbooks in search of anything sexual.

 

I also know what it's like to have your kid (my son in my case) search through your room for things. It was an extreme violation of trust and I made sure he knew it.

 

One thing I wanted to make sure of when I went through that is that I let my kids know that everything the were feeling was natural. My mother flipped out on me and kept telling me how bad and sinful I was--it set up a lot of problems, and I didn't want that for my children.

 

Those feelings (physical) she gets when she reads and looks at those images feel good, and that's the way we're made. But in this day and age we ask our children to control a physical response that 1-adults have an outlet for (and don't do such a good job at controlling, either), and 2- are surging because of their hormones. Way back she would have been getting married or allowed to partner and have a release. In this day and age we ask our children to control their physical maturity for another 15-20 years while they get their schooling and attain jobs.

 

With my son I told him that reading those books is fine, and that self pleasure was a good outlet for those physical feelings. Just keep it private.

 

You bring up excellent points! I didn't freak out at all, and in fact tried to reinforce that her feelings are very normal. We've had a couple of very good, gentle discussions about it at this point, and while I'm angry about the disobedience and violation of my trust, I'm in no way angry that she's feeling sexual. Included in our discussions both in the last couple of days and even when I found her internet "research" previously have been very frank conversations even about self-gratification. She's very clear about why I am angry.

 

I was seeking advice initially on how others may have handled the situation, as well as on whether or not anyone thought perhaps she was interested in it more than normal. Thanks to everyone here I feel much better about that now!

 

I had not considered your point about the change in when and how we as a society allow our children to express their physicality. That is brilliant, and I'll be sharing that bit of wisdom with my friends as they encounter the same issues.

 

Thank you so much!

[gfam]

Addiction to pornography is very real, even in the young. There is a huge difference between taking care of those emotions in the privacy of your own room & repeatedly seeking out known pornography. It should be taken seriously. I did not read all the replies, but I do know your pain. :( The only difference was it was a son, not daughter. He admitted it was more than hormones & emotions. Once those images are in a persons heart & mind they take a very very very long time to fade. I will always have to live with the guilt of not having the necessary safe guards on my computer. So I do understand.

 

One resource that was helpful was this book. It also has a study guide for girls or boys as well. It does have a large Biblical element so that may or may not suit you. My husband went through the book with my son as a mentor & he said it did help. Those desires to seek out pornography will not just go away over night & may take some long term commitment to help. The other thing that was very helpful was finding a mentor we trusted that had been through this same problem to walk along side my son to keep him accountable with his feelings & struggles.

 

While none of this may be suitable for your daughter or situation it was just our experience. You are wise to seek counsel & take this as a serious issue. There is curiosity/rebellion & there is addiction. I pray it is not the later for your child.

 

Best of luck figuring out what is best for your family.

[EmilyK]

I realize I'm not the OP, but have a question seeing the replies here -- I get why people have the reservations about removing the door, but I also get that having to lock the parent's door can seem like the parent is being punished instead of the child. If it were me (and this may be me sooner than I'd like), I live in an old house and would have to buy padlocks or something for 2 doors. I can't imagine wanting to undertake that. (I do get keeping materials out of kids' hands.) So what would be a punishment for invasion of privacy that seems reasonable, and related to the privacy issue?

 

As a kid, I don't remember having much privacy (and I'm not sure I used what I had well). I don't think my door locked and my parents -- while not intentionally snooping -- felt free to walk in whenever, pick up the phone when I was on, etc. And my things were completely non-private -- my folks would "organize" if I was away at camp, I know my mom was aware what was in my trash etc. What is reasonable on this? The only thing I remember being bugged by were the trash comments, and by my folks throwing my things away. But it sounds like parents today give more privacy? I'm just trying to navigate future waters with my now 11 1/2 year old.

 

I do know I got in big trouble for getting into my mom's stuff. My kids seem totally uninterested in my stuff so far, and what there is isn't very interesting.

 

Is there more privacy, and or respecting these feelings, for older teens? I know my parents wouldn't have been cool with this sort of stuff at 13, but I'm sure acknowledged such feelings at say 15. Even if they wouldn't have been OK with the specifics.

 

I guess I'm just dreading instituting the parental controls on everything.

 

 

I'm not arguing in favor or against, just trying to understand what typical rules these days are.

[ConnieB]

Well, as a teen I found my dad's erotica books in his dresser when I was putting away his laundry (the drawer was too full to fit any more so I was taking it all out to put away neater hoping to fit....and there they were under his knickers, lol). I didn't take them right then, but they stuck in my mind for quite some time and eventually I did sneak back in and take them to read privately. I wasn't then, nor am I now, a deviant. I wasn't abused. I wasn't "active". I just had heard about "it" from school programs, from my mother's birds/bees talk, and of course from the high school kids in the neighborhood. So, yeah, I was very curious. Of course, years later when marital bliss wasn't quite the same as the Happy Hooker's bliss, it was a bit of a let down, lol....until some frank discussions with my DH about why I was disappointed.

 

I do also understand the pp saying it's a double standard. I never got caught with my Dad's book, but I think I would have cried foul if he'd punished me for reading it but it was ok for him to read. He was expecting me to behave more like an adult (the added chores and responsibilities, my behavior, etc), but other adult things were off limits.

 

Now....I found Dad's book by accident and while I'd likely have a problem now as the parent to my child then taking it.....if your book was hidden away and therefore she was snooping instead of just accidently finding it....I'd probably focus my punishment more on that aspect. In my house snooping and invading privacy is a serious offense.

 

I would also caution you to keep the conversations as unemotionally charged as possible. Not only do you not want to give the impression that sexual feelings are somehow objectionable in and of themselves (which I presume you don't think they are, your objection appears to be her age vs the maturity of the subject matter)....but you also don't want to close off her willingness to talk to you. It's a tough battle because you're reaction is understandable....you're not ready for her to be taking the steps into adulthood that she apparently is starting......but at the same time if you close the conduit of conversation it will be very difficult to ever open it again, on this or other subjects. Proceed with caution, though that doesn't mean condoning it.....it a slippery slope with no clear instructions that I've yet to find. But the communication is vitally important to me, perhaps moreso than this serious subject and it's consequences.

[Haiku]

So what would be a punishment for invasion of privacy that seems reasonable, and related to the privacy issue?

 

 

To some kids, having the parent lock their door (a visible sign that they have lost their parents' trust) would be a punishment. I also think that the logical consequence of snooping is that people lock you out.

 

Tara

[LibraryLover]

Porn teen girl punishment.

 

This thread has it all to be picked up by the pervs.

Edited November 10, 2009 by LibraryLover

[StephanieZ]

I think there is a difference btw accessing internet porn (which had been clearly forbidden and presents various clear dangers in addition to the particular static content) and reading the erotica book she found in your stuff.

 

Although I would freak out if I were in your shoes. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: to you. . . I would advise you to take a deep breath and rethink your consequences. I would ask how she got the book. I would explain that it is private and that you didn't want her to see it, which is why you hid it in whereever you had hidden it.

 

Then, I'd force myself (shove, push, choke, gag) to have a much more mature and explicit s*x talk with dd than I'd like to have. I'd present her with book(s) that I felt provided a healthy and comprehensive outlook about s*xuality. I'd try to be available to talk about it.

 

I think your dd is ready and begging for explicit s*x information from a trusted source. She wants details. I'd force myself to accept her as a s*xual being who owns her own body, s*xuality, etc and not try to hold it back. I wouldn't want her taking those drives on the road, tho!!! So, I'd try to give her the info she needed to explore those things on her *own*. I would not want to punish her for her natural drives. This is not an evil drive, IMHO, it is just one that makes us parents uncomfortable.

 

FWIW, I think nearly every 13 yo boy in the world is addicted to s*x/porn if trying to access images/info repeatedly is the definition. It is *healthy* to be interested at that age (and beyond, lol) What I'd want is to help that healthy interest focus on healthy images, not ones that might twist her view of self and relationships in the future or warp her own arousal/interests into less than optimum areas by exposing her to extreme/strange imagery -- which is why we'd want to avoid exposure to internet weirdness. . . .

[Mandy in TN]

I just don't know what else to do at this point. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I must have missed this thread previously, so I am chiming in a little late.

 

Anyway, I wanted to assure you that your dd's behavior sounds perfectly within the realm of normal. I wasn't s*xually abused or active and I spent plenty of time looking through my dad's and step-brother's magazines at 13yo.

 

Along those lines, I do think that if it is in the house you should expect her to seek it out. If you don't want her to see it, remove the pictures from the home. After all you can look at it online! LOL OTOH- she shouldn't be looking through other people's things. If she was told that she would loose her door for doing so, then from my perspective you now must follow through. The door must come down. She can masterb*te in the bathroom for a couple of weeks.

 

:grouphug: Aren't teenagers fun?!

Mandy

[Lovedtodeath]

Yikes about the pervs!

 

QVAlencia, I do not think that you are handling this all wrong. I do think that these posts were some great reminders.

I would talk to her about what she's seen. I'd talk to her about how it made her feel. And about what she might be wondering about.

Make sure that she knows how completely unnatural p*rn is. Make sure you know. ;)

 

In my opinion she certainly deserves discipline for sneaking through your belongings, but not for reading the book. I think it is a bit soon to be concerned about a porn addiction too. How do you feel when you develop an interest in something and can't find the information you are looking for? I think the best way to deal with her interest is to satisfy it. Obviously porn isn't an age appropriate way though! I would suggest a conversation along the lines of "You are in deep trouble for sneaking through my stuff, you know way better than that. However, I can see that this is an important issue for you and we need to address that. Perhaps you can explain what sort of information you are looking for and I will think of a healthy way for you to learn it." I think banning everything and punishing her over it is a very good way to encourage more sneaking, because she will *know* she can't talk to you about it. Not that 13 year olds usually want to talk to their parents about such things...

 

Rosie- (Yeah, fine for me to say, my oldest is 2)

:iagree: Edited November 10, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[asta]

Then, I'd force myself (shove, push, choke, gag) to have a much more mature and explicit s*x talk with dd than I'd like to have. I'd present her with book(s) that I felt provided a healthy and comprehensive outlook about s*xuality. I'd try to be available to talk about it.

 

I think your dd is ready and begging for explicit s*x information from a trusted source. She wants details. I'd force myself to accept her as a s*xual being who owns her own body, s*xuality, etc and not try to hold it back. I wouldn't want her taking those drives on the road, tho!!! So, I'd try to give her the info she needed to explore those things on her *own*. I would not want to punish her for her natural drives. This is not an evil drive, IMHO, it is just one that makes us parents uncomfortable.

.

 

Best $20 I ever spent:

 

All about S.E.X.: The Scarleteen Book.

 

It doesn't pull any punches.

 

 

a

[Sweetpeach]

I didn't read the whole thread.

Delete. Delete. Delete.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Sweetpeach

[stripe]

I realize I'm not the OP, but have a question seeing the replies here -- I get why people have the reservations about removing the door, but I also get that having to lock the parent's door can seem like the parent is being punished instead of the child.

Well, I don't see that enforcing my own privacy is a punishment -- I like having a lock on my front door and on the bathroom door, for example.

 

I can understand why one wouldn't want to do it, but it's not necessarily punishing the mother. She wouldn't have to use it all the time, or ever.

 

But if a mother doesn't trust her daughter not to get into her stuff, I think the only REAL solutions are:

1* remove material: mother gets rid of anything she doesn't want daughter to find

2* limit access (barrier method): mother physically prevents daughter from having access to items she doesn't want daughter to find (e.g. move to a storage unit, put in locked safe, hide well, or lock the room)

3* limit access (opportunity): daughter is prevented from being alone/unsupervised, because that is when she had the freedom to get into her mother's stuff

 

The OP expressed irritation when I suggested option 3. I don't think she has an interest in option 1.

 

I still don't see how the "solution" of removing the daughter's door, especially after having walked in on her daughter during some private moment that the mother herself characterized as the daughter needing more privacy -- so maybe the real problem is not enough privacy for the daughter. Maybe having her mother walk in on her in the middle of an, er, "intimate moment" led to her seeking "revenge" of sorts by going through her mother's things and finding her own private material. Just a thought.

 

And wondering if others are deviant for looking at material that one has in one's own home does suggest there is a bit of a disconnect!

 

I think this whole situation is complex, and several other issues are NOT being dealt with at all.

[st_claire]

Hi, I didn't not read most of the replies, so I'm just addressed the OP here.

 

Your daughter is curious about sex. You say that is normal, but then you say it wrong for her to look at things. I'm sensing you think it's normal to want to look but one must resits their feelings and repess their curiosity. That doesn't sound healthy to me.

 

For most of history, she would be married by now or very shortly. She would be having sex with her husband. Her body is ready for sex (or almost ready), why shouldn't she be allowed to find out about it?

 

I would talk to her about masturbation, and how one can make themselves feel good. I would take her shopping for some erotica books of her own and, if she feels comfortable with the idea, a vibrator. These things will help her learn what pleases her. She will also feel less need to develop a sexual relationship with a partner if she can take care of her needs herself.

 

If she likes looking at adult content on the internet, I would get her her own computer. I would explain that these things are normal, and healthy, but they should be done in private.

 

I hope this advise helps. I think you should empower your daughter to feel good about her developing sexuality, I worry your reaction will result in shaming her.

[lionfamily1999]

to get into her stuff, I think the only REAL solutions are:

1* remove material: mother gets rid of anything she doesn't want daughter to find

2* limit access (barrier method): mother physically prevents daughter from having access to items she doesn't want daughter to find (e.g. move to a storage unit, put in locked safe, hide well, or lock the room)

3* limit access (opportunity): daughter is prevented from being alone/unsupervised, because that is when she had the freedom to get into her mother's stuff

 

 

I still don't see how the "solution" of removing the daughter's door, especially after having walked in on her daughter during some private moment that the mother herself characterized as the daughter needing more privacy -- so maybe the real problem is not enough privacy for the daughter. Maybe having her mother walk in on her in the middle of an, er, "intimate moment" led to her seeking "revenge" of sorts by going through her mother's things and finding her own private material. Just a thought.

 

And wondering if others are deviant for looking at material that one has in one's own home does suggest there is a bit of a disconnect!

 

I think this whole situation is complex, and several other issues are NOT being dealt with at all.

Society is not going to bend around someone that breaks rules. We do not tell people, well if someone broke into your house then you need to get better locks, it's your own fault. Making the mother alter HER behavior, because her DAUGHTER has an issue with respect does not make any sense.

 

While I would not remove a door, I can see where the OP is coming from. Her daughter violated the privacy of others, so she loses her own privacy. It makes sense.

 

As for deviant material... Adults, over 18 are legally able to buy pornagraphy. An adult is legally able to have that in their posession. A 13 yo is not. Same way I can keep beer in my fridge, because I am an adult, and still expect the dcs to keep out, because they are not adults. There is a difference.

 

Also, Q did not seem angry that her daughter was reading it so much as upset at her daughter violating her privacy, going through her things, to get at it. If the morals were the issue, then I'd agree about the book. If I was anti-alcohol having beer would be hypocritical of me, but Q did not express concern about the book itself so much as the violation of privacy.

[st_claire]

Society is not going to bend around someone that breaks rules. We do not tell people, well if someone broke into your house then you need to get better locks, it's your own fault. Making the mother alter HER behavior, because her DAUGHTER has an issue with respect does not make any sense.

 

While I would not remove a door, I can see where the OP is coming from. Her daughter violated the privacy of others, so she loses her own privacy. It makes sense.

 

As for deviant material... Adults, over 18 are legally able to buy pornagraphy. An adult is legally able to have that in their posession. A 13 yo is not. Same way I can keep beer in my fridge, because I am an adult, and still expect the dcs to keep out, because they are not adults. There is a difference.

 

Also, Q did not seem angry that her daughter was reading it so much as upset at her daughter violating her privacy, going through her things, to get at it. If the morals were the issue, then I'd agree about the book. If I was anti-alcohol having beer would be hypocritical of me, but Q did not express concern about the book itself so much as the violation of privacy.

 

 

Society does say if a child drowns in your pool, you should have put a fence arround it. It is your responsiblity.

 

also, the OP said it was erotica, not pornography. Children are allowed to see erotic art in museums for example. Did the dd even know the book was off limits?

 

She is not allowed to search the web, she cannot read books on the topic, where is this poor young lady supposed to get information from?

[lionfamily1999]

Society does say if a child drowns in your pool, you should have put a fence arround it. It is your responsiblity.

 

also, the OP said it was erotica, not pornography. Children are allowed to see erotic art in museums for example. Did the dd even know the book was off limits?

 

She is not allowed to search the web, she cannot read books on the topic, where is this poor young lady supposed to get information from?

Yes, but if you are raising your child to be a member of society, then they need to know how society is going to expect them to behave. Rather than bending around them (let's all install better locks so the poor criminal doesn't break the law again) they'll get punished for having broken the law. In this case, dd breached privacy, she went through her mother's things, and so she loses her own privacy.

 

If you have to dig through someone's things to find something and you're being sneaky about it, it should be obvious it's off limits.

 

Where she gets her info from is up to her mother. Q does not sound like she's holding her dd down. She's done some sex ed, she explained what's going on and imo, she's handled this extremely well. Porn and erotica are not real examples of sex/sexuality, they're bizarre distorted views of them. I would have never considered the internet a viable solution to sex ed, nor would I chuck a few eroticas to my kids. There's way better, and more realistic, resources than either of those have to offer.

 

 

ETA: Having read your post (missed it the first time) I see we completely disagree about this and I don't think that will change. So... I'll leave my response, but I don't think we'll get to understanding each other at all.

Edited November 10, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[st_claire]

Yes, but if you are raising your child to be a member of society, then they need to know how society is going to expect them to behave. Rather than bending around them (let's all install better locks so the poor criminal doesn't break the law again) they'll get punished for having broken the law. In this case, dd breached privacy, she went through her mother's things, and so she loses her own privacy.

 

If you have to dig through someone's things to find something and you're being sneaky about it, it should be obvious it's off limits.

 

Where she gets her info from is up to her mother. Q does not sound like she's holding her dd down. She's done some sex ed, she explained what's going on and imo, she's handled this extremely well. Porn and erotica are not real examples of sex/sexuality, they're bizarre distorted views of them. I would have never considered the internet a viable solution to sex ed, nor would I chuck a few eroticas to my kids. There's way better, and more realistic, resources than either of those have to offer.

 

 

ETA: Having read your post (missed it the first time) I see we completely disagree about this and I don't think that will change. So... I'll leave my response, but I don't think we'll get to understanding each other at all.

 

She sounds very much like she is holding her down. "some" sex ed? She is 13! She should have had tons of sex ed.

 

How are porn and erotica "not real examples of sex/sexuality"? Videos for example, are indeed real sex. No camera tricks lol. Erotica is almost always fiction yes, but it neither are supposed to be about realism, it's about fantasy. Fantasizing is healthy.

 

I never once implied the internet or erotica were "solutions" to sex ed. I said they were solutions to getting off, which her dd is obviously interested in.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes, but if you are raising your child to be a member of society, then they need to know how society is going to expect them to behave. Rather than bending around them (let's all install better locks so the poor criminal doesn't break the law again) they'll get punished for having broken the law. In this case, dd breached privacy, she went through her mother's things, and so she loses her own privacy.

 

If you have to dig through someone's things to find something and you're being sneaky about it, it should be obvious it's off limits.

 

Where she gets her info from is up to her mother. Q does not sound like she's holding her dd down. She's done some sex ed, she explained what's going on and imo, she's handled this extremely well. Porn and erotica are not real examples of sex/sexuality, they're bizarre distorted views of them. I would have never considered the internet a viable solution to sex ed, nor would I chuck a few eroticas to my kids. There's way better, and more realistic, resources than either of those have to offer.

 

 

ETA: Having read your post (missed it the first time) I see we completely disagree about this and I don't think that will change. So... I'll leave my response, but I don't think we'll get to understanding each other at all.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:Very well said! I wanted to say something but couldn't put it to words.

[Pammy]

I never once implied the internet or erotica were "solutions" to sex ed. I said they were solutions to getting off, which her dd is obviously interested in.

 

It amuses me to find this here, but I guess I shouldn't be shocked. It was on Oprah a few months ago... everyone... run out and buy some erotica and sex toys for your 13 yodd so she can get off!!! (NOT)!

[st_claire]

It amuses me to find this here, but I guess I shouldn't be shocked. It was on Oprah a few months ago... everyone... run out and buy some erotica and sex toys for your 13 yodd so she can get off!!! (NOT)!

 

 

What is shocking about it? Why shouldn't a young lady be encouraged to enjoy her sexuality? What is so offensive to you about a woman's sexual empowerment?

[Pammy]

What is shocking about it? Why shouldn't a young lady be encouraged to enjoy her sexuality? What is so offensive to you about a woman's sexual empowerment?

 

Why would one want to arouse (pun intended) sexual feelings in a 13 yo girl before she is ready to marry? Don't you know that our societal norm is not what it used to be ages ago... most teens don't marry til they are legal age. If you prematurely awaken those feelings, that is setting up said teen for seeking pleasure elsewhere. It is not normal, it is in fact abnormal, for a 13 yo girl who was just playing with dolls a few years before to start doing things a mature woman would do. That is my take on it.. call me prude or whatever. It so happens I come from a past that I see young girls who are victims of sexual abuse, and it started with this liberal mentality you speak of.

[stripe]

Society is not going to bend around someone that breaks rules. We do not tell people, well if someone broke into your house then you need to get better locks, it's your own fault. Making the mother alter HER behavior, because her DAUGHTER has an issue with respect does not make any sense.

 

Aha, but I never issued as my sole suggestion that the mother lock her door! In fact, the OP was irritated with the number of ideas I had to actually address the issue of her daughter. I also think it's excessive to equate a child rustling through her mother's belongings with burglars. There is too much nervousness that the least little thing means the child is a criminal or a pervert.

 

The fact remains, if YOU want to be sure YOU will have privacy, the only way to do that is to limit access to your stuff by that person -- either by limiting access to the thing itself or controlling the movements of the other person.

 

Someone might come across it, even innocently (e.g. the daughter who found her father's porn when putting away his clothes), so if it's important to you to have privacy, YOU have to create privacy. People stumble across their parents having sex, for example -- there've been numerous threads on this board! If you don't want someone to walk in on you, either send the kids to grandma's (or whatever, that takes the kids out of possibly walking in) OR lock the door!

 

And I still think it's interesting that the mother thinks the daughter's problem is insufficient privacy YET her solution is to eliminate all privacy.

Edited November 10, 2009 by stripe

[AlmiraGulch]

Well, I don't see that enforcing my own privacy is a punishment -- I like having a lock on my front door and on the bathroom door, for example.

 

I can understand why one wouldn't want to do it, but it's not necessarily punishing the mother. She wouldn't have to use it all the time, or ever.

 

But if a mother doesn't trust her daughter not to get into her stuff, I think the only REAL solutions are:

1* remove material: mother gets rid of anything she doesn't want daughter to find

2* limit access (barrier method): mother physically prevents daughter from having access to items she doesn't want daughter to find (e.g. move to a storage unit, put in locked safe, hide well, or lock the room)

3* limit access (opportunity): daughter is prevented from being alone/unsupervised, because that is when she had the freedom to get into her mother's stuff

 

The OP expressed irritation when I suggested option 3. I don't think she has an interest in option 1.

 

I still don't see how the "solution" of removing the daughter's door, especially after having walked in on her daughter during some private moment that the mother herself characterized as the daughter needing more privacy -- so maybe the real problem is not enough privacy for the daughter. Maybe having her mother walk in on her in the middle of an, er, "intimate moment" led to her seeking "revenge" of sorts by going through her mother's things and finding her own private material. Just a thought.

 

And wondering if others are deviant for looking at material that one has in one's own home does suggest there is a bit of a disconnect!

 

I think this whole situation is complex, and several other issues are NOT being dealt with at all.

 

First of all, I did not express irritation when you suggested that she has too much alone time. I simply stated that you are incorrect. I believe I made that clear when I posted a direct response to you. Perhaps you didn't read that one...

 

I also have never given any indication of what I would or would not do with the material that she found. You are making assumptions for which you have no basis.

 

I have never implied that my child is "deviant." If you actually read what I've written, you will see that I've told her time and time again that her interest in the material is perfectly normal. My concern, because I've never dealt with this directly before, was whether or not her interest seems to go beyond what is "normal" for her age.

 

Finally, I will state again that it is my belief that there is nothing wrong with an ADULT having ADULT reading material, or even any form of sexual aid, in the home.

 

Clearly this is a hot button issue for you based on the intensity of your responses. I'm sorry if you've been offended in any way. Perhaps it would be best if you would stop exposing yourself to this thread. It seems that you will not be satisfied until my opinion is perfectly reflective of yours, and that simply isn't going to happen. Again, I do appreciate your initially taking the time to post. I do welcome all points of view, no matter how vehemently I may disagree with them.

[Lovedtodeath]

Q, I have been very impressed with the way that you have responded to everyone in this thread.

[st_claire]

Why would one want to arouse (pun intended) sexual feelings in a 13 yo girl before she is ready to marry? Don't you know that our societal norm is not what it used to be ages ago... most teens don't marry til they are legal age. If you prematurely awaken those feelings, that is setting up said teen for seeking pleasure elsewhere. It is not normal, it is in fact abnormal, for a 13 yo girl who was just playing with dolls a few years before to start doing things a mature woman would do. That is my take on it.. call me prude or whatever. It so happens I come from a past that I see young girls who are victims of sexual abuse, and it started with this liberal mentality you speak of.

 

 

I disagree compleatly. The feelings are not premature, they are very very normal and right on target. Our bodies have been this way for thousands of years, just because societ decides to encourage later marrying (mostly because we all live so much longer now), doens't mean our bodies wait to be sexually ready.

 

Yes, children do grow up fast. It is very normal for them to be playing with dolls and have sexual feelings at the same age, let alone only a few years apart.

 

I know survivors of sexual abuse, and masturbation is something very few of them are interested in actually, or are only so after tons of therapy. Abuse makes one's body a source of pain, not pleasure.

 

It is normal and very healthy for a 13 year old to masturbate and to be very interested in sex in general.

 

An sexual abuse did not start with a liberal mentality. Sexual abuse has been around for as long as a woman has been able to think "no, I do not want this." In fact, a liberal mentality greatly reduces the chances of abuse. A liberal mentality says a woman owns her sexuality. She can say no. She is not required to obey any man, even her partner. A liberal mentality says sex is ok to talk about. It tells children to ask if something is ok. It tells them to speak out if someone hurts them.

 

A 13 year old is old enough to be charged with murder as an adult. In many places they are old enough to marry. As we already discussed, she is physically old enough to have children of her own. She is 100% old enough to decide for herself about her own sexuality and to handle reading some erotica.

[AlmiraGulch]

Society does say if a child drowns in your pool, you should have put a fence arround it. It is your responsiblity.

 

also, the OP said it was erotica, not pornography. Children are allowed to see erotic art in museums for example. Did the dd even know the book was off limits?

 

She is not allowed to search the web, she cannot read books on the topic, where is this poor young lady supposed to get information from?

 

I will not allow my "poor child" open access to pornography on the internet, and I do not consider erotica to be appropriate reading material for a 13 year old.

 

She gets "information" from me directly. We talk quite openly about sex and sexuality. She also has an open door relationship with one of her aunts in case there is any subject she feels too uncomfortable to talk about with me. So far, she has not felt the need to go that route.

 

The original purpose of this post was to ask opinions and advice about whether or not her interest in porn may perhaps go beyond what is "normal" for her age, and what to do about it if it did. I also expressed my anger about her violating a firm house rule about violations of personal space and privacy, and asked what others might do in my circumstance. I have received a wealth of feedback for which I am grateful.

 

How it went from that to an undercurrent of "this-woman-is-repressed (or deviant)-and-that-poor-girl-has-no-outlet-for-her-sexual-questions-and-tensions-and-gets-no-sex-education-from-her-mother" is both confounding and amusing!

[Tidbits of Learning]

Why would one want to arouse (pun intended) sexual feelings in a 13 yo girl before she is ready to marry? Don't you know that our societal norm is not what it used to be ages ago... most teens don't marry til they are legal age. If you prematurely awaken those feelings, that is setting up said teen for seeking pleasure elsewhere. It is not normal, it is in fact abnormal, for a 13 yo girl who was just playing with dolls a few years before to start doing things a mature woman would do. That is my take on it.. call me prude or whatever. It so happens I come from a past that I see young girls who are victims of sexual abuse, and it started with this liberal mentality you speak of.

 

I hate to say this, but marriage is not a requirement to have sex and it hasn't been deemed that for quite a while. If you don't talk about these things, you will be having this talk in an ob office with your pregnant 15 year old. Ignoring it or making it seem not normal will make them hide things from you and not talk to you.

I have seen too many 15 year old girls knocked up and their parents clueless b/c they didn't give them the tools to protect themselves and the knowledge to make a truly informed decision. While I won't want my children having sex at a young age, I am not going to be stupid and not supply them with birth control and the knowledge to prevent diseases. In that same respect, I won't make them feel bad if they peak at an early age and seek out self pleasure. It isn't abnormal or wrong, it is human.

The mentality that if I pretend it is not right and that I just don't talk about it with my child for fear of awakening desires is dangerous. Anyone that thinks ignoring the facts of life is a solution is in for a rude awakening.

I believe these feelings are already awakened in this girl and it would be remiss of her parent not to talk to her and let her know it is absolutely normal to want to feel pleasure.

I don't think here interest is abnormal for her age. Children reach all stages of development at different times. I think the op is doing a great job letting her child know that she is not alone and that it is perfectly normal. The internet would bug me b/c of viruses and the sheer variety of unusual things she could be exposed to at this age. If she needs visual stimulation, then I would purchase some things for her that wouldn't require the computer.

If she feels the loss of a door will help her daughter to realize that she shouldn't snoop and plunder, then I think she knows her better than we do. I would also put a lock on my door though.

[AlmiraGulch]

Yes, but if you are raising your child to be a member of society, then they need to know how society is going to expect them to behave. Rather than bending around them (let's all install better locks so the poor criminal doesn't break the law again) they'll get punished for having broken the law. In this case, dd breached privacy, she went through her mother's things, and so she loses her own privacy.

 

If you have to dig through someone's things to find something and you're being sneaky about it, it should be obvious it's off limits.

 

Where she gets her info from is up to her mother. Q does not sound like she's holding her dd down. She's done some sex ed, she explained what's going on and imo, she's handled this extremely well. Porn and erotica are not real examples of sex/sexuality, they're bizarre distorted views of them. I would have never considered the internet a viable solution to sex ed, nor would I chuck a few eroticas to my kids. There's way better, and more realistic, resources than either of those have to offer.

 

 

ETA: Having read your post (missed it the first time) I see we completely disagree about this and I don't think that will change. So... I'll leave my response, but I don't think we'll get to understanding each other at all.

 

Thank you, Julie, for the support.

[Jenny in Atl]

Would there be this much worry if it was a 13 year-old boy?

 

I agree with the previous posts about going through other's items w/o their okay. Not cool... no matter the subject/item. But, I would not be upset with my 13 dd being interested in adult materials. I would however point her in a better direction than porn, say movies/books/etc with more tasteful content, that still allow her to explore this natural progression towards womanhood. For me it's more a quality issue than subject matter.

[st_claire]

I will not allow my "poor child" open access to pornography on the internet, and I do not consider erotica to be appropriate reading material for a 13 year old.

 

She gets "information" from me directly. We talk quite openly about sex and sexuality. She also has an open door relationship with one of her aunts in case there is any subject she feels too uncomfortable to talk about with me. So far, she has not felt the need to go that route.

 

The original purpose of this post was to ask opinions and advice about whether or not her interest in porn may perhaps go beyond what is "normal" for her age, and what to do about it if it did. I also expressed my anger about her violating a firm house rule about violations of personal space and privacy, and asked what others might do in my circumstance. I have received a wealth of feedback for which I am grateful.

 

How it went from that to an undercurrent of "this-woman-is-repressed (or deviant)-and-that-poor-girl-has-no-outlet-for-her-sexual-questions-and-tensions-and-gets-no-sex-education-from-her-mother" is both confounding and amusing!

 

Given your response, I would very much doubt she would feel comfortable talking to you about sex. You have made it clear to her that you feel she has no business being interested in it. I hate to see what you would do if you caught her having intercourse. You might think it is "open door", but I would bet she doesn't.

 

I answered your questions. It is normal. Very normal. You should encourage her. I gave some ideas for how you could undo some of the damage you probably caused by your reaction.

 

As for the house rule, you obviously don't respect her privacy (you look at her internet history), why should she respect yours? (from her point of view I mean).

 

Threads go beyond the original speicfic topic all the time, especially ones with this sort of topic. If you don't want threads to diverge, don't post on a public forum.

[st_claire]

I hate to say this, but marriage is not a requirement to have sex and it hasn't been deemed that for quite a while. If you don't talk about these things, you will be having this talk in an ob office with your pregnant 15 year old. Ignoring it or making it seem not normal will make them hide things from you and not talk to you.

I have seen too many 15 year old girls knocked up and their parents clueless b/c they didn't give them the tools to protect themselves and the knowledge to make a truly informed decision. While I won't want my children having sex at a young age, I am not going to be stupid and not supply them with birth control and the knowledge to prevent diseases. In that same respect, I won't make them feel bad if they peak at an early age and seek out self pleasure. It isn't abnormal or wrong, it is human.

The mentality that if I pretend it is not right and that I just don't talk about it with my child for fear of awakening desires is dangerous. Anyone that thinks ignoring the facts of life is a solution is in for a rude awakening.

I believe these feelings are already awakened in this girl and it would be remiss of her parent not to talk to her and let her know it is absolutely normal to want to feel pleasure.

I don't think here interest is abnormal for her age. Children reach all stages of development at different times. I think the op is doing a great job letting her child know that she is not alone and that it is perfectly normal. The internet would bug me b/c of viruses and the sheer variety of unusual things she could be exposed to at this age. If she needs visual stimulation, then I would purchase some things for her that wouldn't require the computer.

If she feels the loss of a door will help her daughter to realize that she shouldn't snoop and plunder, then I think she knows her better than we do. I would also put a lock on my door though.

 

:iagree: Well said.

[Denisemomof4]

Hi, I didn't not read most of the replies, so I'm just addressed the OP here.

 

Your daughter is curious about sex. You say that is normal, but then you say it wrong for her to look at things. I'm sensing you think it's normal to want to look but one must resits their feelings and repess their curiosity. That doesn't sound healthy to me.

 

For most of history, she would be married by now or very shortly. She would be having sex with her husband. Her body is ready for sex (or almost ready), why shouldn't she be allowed to find out about it?

 

I would talk to her about masturbation, and how one can make themselves feel good. I would take her shopping for some erotica books of her own and, if she feels comfortable with the idea, a vibrator. These things will help her learn what pleases her. She will also feel less need to develop a sexual relationship with a partner if she can take care of her needs herself.

 

If she likes looking at adult content on the internet, I would get her her own computer. I would explain that these things are normal, and healthy, but they should be done in private.

 

I hope this advise helps. I think you should empower your daughter to feel good about her developing sexuality, I worry your reaction will result in shaming her.

 

wow. I think my husband would admit me to a psyche ward if I bought my daughter erotica and toys to please herself at the age of 13. Maybe I'm just too conservative, but I do think this is going way to far. I'm sorry to single you out and say that, but to give a 13 year old sex toys and her own computer to have unlimited access to online pornography is totally and completely dangerous.

 

My oldest daughter is 10 and this post has me seriously considering how I'm going to talk to her and share normal feelings and behavior. Whew. I'm not quite there yet.

[st_claire]

wow. I think my husband would admit me to a psyche ward if I bought my daughter erotica and toys to please herself at the age of 13. Maybe I'm just too conservative, but I do think this is going way to far. I'm sorry to single you out and say that, but to give a 13 year old sex toys and her own computer to have unlimited access to online pornography is totally and completely dangerous.

 

My oldest daughter is 10 and this post has me seriously considering how I'm going to talk to her and share normal feelings and behavior. Whew. I'm not quite there yet.

 

I realize not everyone is comfortable talking to their children about sex or encouraging them to self pleasure. A big reason why is because many of us were not raised in sex positive homes. We carry those feelings of shame with us and pass them on in a cycle.

 

But there is nothing dangerous about sex toys or porn. In fact, think about it, no risk of STIs or pregnancies, not even broken hearts.

 

If she is 10, I hope that you talk to her soon. Sexuality education should start much younger than 10 I think. At this age she probably already has lots of questions. maybe talk with her while washing dishes after dinner some time this week? Good luck :)

[tdeveson]

This may not be the answer you're looking for, but your daughter sounds like a normal 13-year-old. This kind of heightened curiosity about all things sexual is textbook normal. At this time she needs a mom that will discuss these things openly with her without giving her the idea that she's a pervert or a weirdo.

 

In my opinion, publicly humiliating her by ripping the door off her room was exactly the wrong thing to do. Unless you're planning to chain her to her bed, she will have internet access at her friends' houses. She will have access to erotica at any bookstore, and she will satisfy her curiosity whether you like it or not. The only thing accomplished is that now you will never know about it again, and you will never again have the opportunity to discuss it with her, to guide her or to make sure she understands the difference between that and the real world.

 

Just my opinion. I hope things work out.

[st_claire]

This may not be the answer you're looking for, but your daughter sounds like a normal 13-year-old. This kind of heightened curiosity about all things sexual is textbook normal. At this time she needs a mom that will discuss these things openly with her without giving her the idea that she's a pervert or a weirdo.

 

In my opinion, publicly humiliating her by ripping the door off her room was exactly the wrong thing to do. Unless you're planning to chain her to her bed, she will have internet access at her friends' houses. She will have access to erotica at any bookstore, and she will satisfy her curiosity whether you like it or not. The only thing accomplished is that now you will never know about it again, and you will never again have the opportunity to discuss it with her, to guide her or to make sure she understands the difference between that and the real world.

 

Just my opinion. I hope things work out.

 

 

:iagree: Well said.

[lionfamily1999]

She sounds very much like she is holding her down. "some" sex ed? She is 13! She should have had tons of sex ed.

 

How are porn and erotica "not real examples of sex/sexuality"? Videos for example, are indeed real sex. No camera tricks lol. Erotica is almost always fiction yes, but it neither are supposed to be about realism, it's about fantasy. Fantasizing is healthy.

 

I never once implied the internet or erotica were "solutions" to sex ed. I said they were solutions to getting off, which her dd is obviously interested in.

No camera tricks, but they are ACTING. It is not realistic.

 

Fantasizing can be enjoyable and alright, it can also be unhealthy. Too much fantasy leads to unrealistic expectations, too much fantasy leads to too little interest in the real world.

I disagree compleatly. The feelings are not premature, they are very very normal and right on target. Our bodies have been this way for thousands of years, just because societ decides to encourage later marrying (mostly because we all live so much longer now), doens't mean our bodies wait to be sexually ready.

 

Yes, children do grow up fast. It is very normal for them to be playing with dolls and have sexual feelings at the same age, let alone only a few years apart.

 

I know survivors of sexual abuse, and masturbation is something very few of them are interested in actually, or are only so after tons of therapy. Abuse makes one's body a source of pain, not pleasure.

 

It is normal and very healthy for a 13 year old to masturbate and to be very interested in sex in general.

 

An sexual abuse did not start with a liberal mentality. Sexual abuse has been around for as long as a woman has been able to think "no, I do not want this." In fact, a liberal mentality greatly reduces the chances of abuse. A liberal mentality says a woman owns her sexuality. She can say no. She is not required to obey any man, even her partner. A liberal mentality says sex is ok to talk about. It tells children to ask if something is ok. It tells them to speak out if someone hurts them.

 

A 13 year old is old enough to be charged with murder as an adult. In many places they are old enough to marry. As we already discussed, she is physically old enough to have children of her own. She is 100% old enough to decide for herself about her own sexuality and to handle reading some erotica.

Natural does not mean healthy. Normal does not necessarily mean healthy. The liberal mentality that, because they are curious it is alright to explore can lead to abuse. Why? Because they are not READY to explore. Just FYI, I do not mean punishing them for touching themselves, but I do mean that buying them things to 'help' them or encouraging them to go outside themselves for pleasure is beyond what they are ready for at that age. Just because you have feelings does not mean you should follow them and, imo/e, at the age of 13 you are extremely vulnerable to the mentality that, if it feels good it must be good. Therefore, to be good I should endulge in this good feeling. Thus anyone that gives me that good feeling must also be good and I would be wrong or bad to deny it. Plenty of younger teens end up promiscuous because of that line of thought, they also end up mothers and diseased. Not because Mom hid the truth, but because Mom said, 'go ahead honey! Enjoy! Don't forget your rubbers in the rain ;)' Thing is, those don't feel good, so they must be bad.

 

I simply, completely disagree with the last bolded statement. 13 is too young and impressionable for that sort of free reign.

 

Given your response, I would very much doubt she would feel comfortable talking to you about sex. You have made it clear to her that you feel she has no business being interested in it. I hate to see what you would do if you caught her having intercourse. You might think it is "open door", but I would bet she doesn't.

 

I answered your questions. It is normal. Very normal. You should encourage her. I gave some ideas for how you could undo some of the damage you probably caused by your reaction.

 

As for the house rule, you obviously don't respect her privacy (you look at her internet history), why should she respect yours? (from her point of view I mean).

 

Threads go beyond the original speicfic topic all the time, especially ones with this sort of topic. If you don't want threads to diverge, don't post on a public forum.

Do you have children?

 

Thank you, Julie, for the support.

I thought you sounded way more rational than I would've :p

[Denisemomof4]

Q, I have been very impressed with the way that you have responded to everyone in this thread.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I want to be like you when I grow up!!! :p

[Denisemomof4]

I will not allow my "poor child" open access to pornography on the internet, and I do not consider erotica to be appropriate reading material for a 13 year old.

 

She gets "information" from me directly. We talk quite openly about sex and sexuality. She also has an open door relationship with one of her aunts in case there is any subject she feels too uncomfortable to talk about with me. So far, she has not felt the need to go that route.

 

The original purpose of this post was to ask opinions and advice about whether or not her interest in porn may perhaps go beyond what is "normal" for her age, and what to do about it if it did. I also expressed my anger about her violating a firm house rule about violations of personal space and privacy, and asked what others might do in my circumstance. I have received a wealth of feedback for which I am grateful.

 

How it went from that to an undercurrent of "this-woman-is-repressed (or deviant)-and-that-poor-girl-has-no-outlet-for-her-sexual-questions-and-tensions-and-gets-no-sex-education-from-her-mother" is both confounding and amusing!

 

you sound like a LOVELY mother and I want to thank you for being brave enough to post all of this here so I could learn from it. :D

 

You've shared much of your story here but only you know your family life, your daughter, and your history. What I've learned is to ALWAYS trust my Mommy Gut. It has NEVER failed me.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[st_claire]

Natural does not mean healthy. Normal does not necessarily mean healthy. The liberal mentality that, because they are curious it is alright to explore can lead to abuse. Why? Because they are not READY to explore. Just FYI, I do not mean punishing them for touching themselves, but I do mean that buying them things to 'help' them or encouraging them to go outside themselves for pleasure is beyond what they are ready for at that age. Just because you have feelings does not mean you should follow them and, imo/e, at the age of 13 you are extremely vulnerable to the mentality that, if it feels good it must be good. Therefore, to be good I should endulge in this good feeling. Thus anyone that gives me that good feeling must also be good and I would be wrong or bad to deny it. Plenty of younger teens end up promiscuous because of that line of thought, they also end up mothers and diseased. Not because Mom hid the truth, but because Mom said, 'go ahead honey! Enjoy! Don't forget your rubbers in the rain ;)' Thing is, those don't feel good, so they must be bad.

 

 

Why should they not do things that feel good that don't cause any harm? If it feels good and causes no harm, then you should indulge it! Plenty of younger teens end up promiscusous because they want to feel good and don't know how to do it themselves.

[Pammy]

(QUOTE)Natural does not mean healthy. Normal does not necessarily mean healthy. The liberal mentality that, because they are curious it is alright to explore can lead to abuse. Why? Because they are not READY to explore. Just FYI, I do not mean punishing them for touching themselves, but I do mean that buying them things to 'help' them or encouraging them to go outside themselves for pleasure is beyond what they are ready for at that age. Just because you have feelings does not mean you should follow them and, imo/e, at the age of 13 you are extremely vulnerable to the mentality that, if it feels good it must be good. Therefore, to be good I should endulge in this good feeling. Thus anyone that gives me that good feeling must also be good and I would be wrong or bad to deny it. Plenty of younger teens end up promiscuous because of that line of thought, they also end up mothers and diseased. Not because Mom hid the truth, but because Mom said, 'go ahead honey! Enjoy! Don't forget your rubbers in the rain ' Thing is, those don't feel good, so they must be bad. (QUOTE). That is exactly what I experienced growing up, as well as most of my childhood friends that were abused. It is really presumptuous to believe that giving young teens the "Sexual empowerment" that feminists have championed for all these years will give them a healthy outlook on sex. It often does just the opposite.

[laundrycrisis]

I am responding late, I know. But still hoping to maybe be helpful. I do not intend any criticism of your approach OP. I am only answering from my own perspective.

 

First I do not think her curiosity is in any way abnormal.

 

If it was my child, I would address the violation of my own privacy, and the violation of a rule I had made clear concerning appropriate books and use of the computer, as separate from the sexual nature of it. Violating a parental rule and a parent's privacy are things that for me would have consequences whether there was an issue of sexual content or not.

 

With books, I would set down some specifics about what makes a book age appropriate or not. There is a big difference between romance books that convey passionate feelings and skim over the physical details (ie would perhaps describe kissing and embraces but not intercourse, or books in which intercourse is assumed but the narration stops at the bedroom door and skips to the next day, etc) and books of a more adult nature that get really explicit. You could perhaps assist her in finding books that are "adult lite" that do not contain explicit descriptions of sexual acts if you are not comfortable with her reading yet.

 

Going beyond those - perhaps at a later age - if at some point you were comfortable with her reading about more details, my biggest concern would be finding books in which at least the main characters and the relationships were somewhat healthy and the book was not glamorizing characters, relationships, and behavior that I found to be highly unethical, or unhealthy lifestyles (ie drug use, sleeping around with different partners, etc). I do think it's normal and not unhealthy or inappropriate at all for teen girls to explore ideas of romantic and physical relationships by reading fiction about them. IMO some parental guidance and open discussion regarding what is being glamorized in the specific books is a good idea though.

 

With the computer, there are reasons beyond your objection to the content not to use a computer to look at porn. It's a prime way to get computer viruses; to get charged money without meaning to; to possibly get your computer hacked; to possibly by accident view websites that can get you into real legal trouble; and worst of all, a way for a kid to stumble into a situation with an internet predator. I would prefer to buy my DD (if I had one) an entire library of British/Irish Chick Lit (my own favorite type of girly reading) books with all the sex included, than have her taking risks on the internet.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Laundrycrisis2

[myfunnybunch]

I guess this is where I am stuck at this point in the discussion, which i've been following since it started: It is one thing to support a young girl in whom sexual feelings are blossoming. But it is a huge leap to assume that parental discomfort with the idea of buying pornography and sex toys for a teen=sexual repression or offense at sexual empowerment, and that there is no openness about sexuality within that home. (Just as it would be wrong to assume that a parent who does choose to provide those things is negligent or too liberal.)

 

Healthy sexual boundaries within families are family specific and fall along a continuum. It is entirely possible to find ways to encourage and support healthy sexual curiousity without providing sex toys. I think one of the most valuable lessons a family can teach is "Here are our boundaries and beliefs around sexuality. Here is why we hold those." And keep talking about those beliefs and setting boundaries (whatever those might be) and talking some more.

 

Cat

[Blessedfamily]

I guess this is where I am stuck at this point in the discussion, which i've been following since it started: It is one thing to support a young girl in whom sexual feelings are blossoming. But it is a huge leap to assume that parental discomfort with the idea of buying pornography and sex toys for a teen=sexual repression or offense at sexual empowerment, and that there is no openness about sexuality within that home. (Just as it would be wrong to assume that a parent who does choose to provide those things is negligent or too liberal.)

 

Healthy sexual boundaries within families are family specific and fall along a continuum. It is entirely possible to find ways to encourage and support healthy sexual curiousity without providing sex toys. I think one of the most valuable lessons a family can teach is "Here are our boundaries and beliefs around sexuality. Here is why we hold those." And keep talking about those beliefs and setting boundaries (whatever those might be) and talking some more.

 

Cat

 

True.

[st_claire]

Source?!!??

 

Although there have been some cultures at some times in history where a 13 year old marrying was standard, it has never been as widespread as your post implies. [in medieval Europe, for example, nobility often married earlier (especially royalty), and, yes, many of those marriages were consummated, but even then it was the norm for other segments of society. But even then, Herlihy's Medieval Households says:

"In Italy the average age for marriage was 17; in France it is 16yo; and in England and Germany 18yo was the average age - all for first marriages"

 

For middle/lower class women, the average age was, I believe, 22 during the Middle Ages (in Europe).

 

 

...and from the 1700s on, women's average age at marriage (in Western society) was in the early 20's, at least. [Here's a chart from a book searchable through Google showing women's ages at first marriage from 1675-1849. If the link doesn't work, it is page 74 of The Economic History of Britain since 1700.]

 

 

I don't, personally, think the historical argument is of relevance to this discussion (more about that below), but your misconception is a common one (and one which always irks me!), so I wanted to respond to it.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what constitutes "readiness" for physical intimacy... but I do know that being physically capable of conceiving does not mean a young girl's body is "ready" to bear a child (with reasonable safety/well-being for her and the baby). And I feel that same distinction applies to less measurable factors as well.

 

The early teen years are the beginning of the development of readiness for any number of things... including intimacy, romance, commitment, and childbearing. As I tell my kids, it isn't an instantaeous switchover - it's a gradual process, and part of that gradualness is having physical and emotional urges which one is not "ready" (by my culture's value system) to follow... just as one has the adjustment of hormones and other physical development over a period of years before bearing a child is a safe, healthy choice, so too, one has an adjustment emotionally/spiritually/etc before one is ready for intimacy/marriage.

 

 

 

 

This is certainly one approach. And it is one which makes sense if s*xual desires are viewed as a... hunger (?can't find the right word here) or a basic physical need. And I certainly respect your right to take that approach.

 

But, in my culture, the physical and spiritual can't be disconnected in this area... and these desires are to be used in a holy way... and an approach of satisfying oneself for the pleasure of it is antithetical to our values. (Regardless of age.)

 

 

 

Again, I can see how this is consitent with your approach, and I respect that, but, aside from the issues I mentioned above, I have another concern - one specific to teens and not directly religious:

 

I don't think it is healthy to develop one's s*xuality based on fantasy creations. I can see it as different for an adult, who has already had her own experience(s) and fully developed sense of self and s*xuality (though I would not use/read/view/consume those types of materials myself), but it seems harmful for a younger person to base her development and expectations on unrealistic words and images... not, imho, a recipe for a happy, satisfying marriage. ...but ymmv.

 

 

 

I agree very strongly with this, but I think we differ in our approaches to achieve that goal..

 

From earlier in your post:

 

 

I've tried to teach my children that following our desires is not always appropriate, constructive, or healthy... that doesn't make those desires wrong or shameful, but it does mean that we need to use our judgment to determine when is is appropriate.

 

As an adult, I strongly censor my own reading/viewing/surfing to within the limits of what my faith deems appropriate... and I limit my food consumption to only what is certified kosher, no matter how appealing a particular food might be, no matter how hungry I am at a given moment. And I believe it right that even if someone were (G-d forbid) to love and/or desire someone who should not be available to them, that s/he resist his/her feelings and repress those desires... keeping within the bounds of living a life of kedusha (holiness).

 

I think this is part of developing a healthy sense of boundaries.... and even if you and I might deraw our lines in different places, I sense that we might agree on this in principle, at least...

 

I apreciate the polite tone of your comments by the way :) And I enjoy discussing different view points.

 

The average age for a roman girl to marry was 13 or 14.

 

By saying one's body is physically ready to bear children, I mean that she is fertile. She has started menstration and could become pregnant.

 

I see no purpose in denying oneself a pleasure that causes no harm. God is another topic altogether lol (but I'm happy to have that one also, just on another thread).

 

I agree that we both want the same thing. I sure almost any parent wants their child to be happy, healthy, and safe. But yes, it is the balance of those things which people so often disagree on. I see happy as number 1. If I could only have one of the three, it would certainly be happyness. The other two are also very important, and in some issues win out (punching someone who steals your parking spot might make you happy for example lol...), but I see far too many cases where happy should win and doesn't. Kids today live in virtual plastic bubbles because many parents aren't aware at how low the risks of danger actually are. On this topic, masturbation is 100% safe. It even has health benefits. Heck, it's even free. Why shouldn't it be encouraged? The 13 year old dd is obviously interested in it. I see no negatives from her having a good time with herself.

 

ETA: Oh, one more thing, I assume from your comments you are Jewish (me 2). Girls are considered to be adults at 12 in Judeism.

[st_claire]

I guess this is where I am stuck at this point in the discussion, which i've been following since it started: It is one thing to support a young girl in whom sexual feelings are blossoming. But it is a huge leap to assume that parental discomfort with the idea of buying pornography and sex toys for a teen=sexual repression or offense at sexual empowerment, and that there is no openness about sexuality within that home. (Just as it would be wrong to assume that a parent who does choose to provide those things is negligent or too liberal.)

 

Healthy sexual boundaries within families are family specific and fall along a continuum. It is entirely possible to find ways to encourage and support healthy sexual curiousity without providing sex toys. I think one of the most valuable lessons a family can teach is "Here are our boundaries and beliefs around sexuality. Here is why we hold those." And keep talking about those beliefs and setting boundaries (whatever those might be) and talking some more.

 

Cat

 

Very well said. I did not mean to imply one *must* buy those things for their children, in fact I think I even advised that not everyone would feel comfortable doing so, I was merely providing some ideas for the OP. I do think that punishing a 13 year old for looking at porn is sexual repression though. And I feel sorry for anyone who has that done to them.

[Tree House Academy]

I have not read all of the posts to this thread, nor do I plan to. When I was a child, I was "caught" looking at something inappropriate and punished harshly. My mother made me think that sex was bad, wrong, awful, sinful, you name it. What did I do? Why I had sex at 14 to spite her. To this day, though, there is that little voice (her voice) in the back of my head that comes out every now and then and says, "sex is dirty"..."wrong..."...."bad..."

 

Fact is, your dd is curious and interested. Instead of freaking out and jerking the door off her room, how about you get her a book about sex, intimacy, etc. that you think is APPROPRIATE for her age. Explain things to her, answer her questions, and encourage her to learn about what makes her curious through appropriate materials (you know...so she doesn't decide to just learn about them through...experience).

[Lovedtodeath]

Given your response, I would very much doubt she would feel comfortable talking to you about sex. You have made it clear to her that you feel she has no business being interested in it.

I do agree that this is the impression that I got after reading the OP.

 

But there is nothing dangerous about sex toys or porn. In fact, think about it, no risk of STIs or pregnancies, not even broken hearts.

WRONG! I know of plenty of broken hearts that would have been avoided if porn was not available.

 

I'm not sure what constitutes "readiness" for physical intimacy... but I do know that being physically capable of conceiving does not mean a young girl's body is "ready" to bear a child (with reasonable safety/well-being for her and the baby). And I feel that same distinction applies to less measurable factors as well.

 

The early teen years are the beginning of the development of readiness for any number of things... including intimacy, romance, commitment, and childbearing. As I tell my kids, it isn't an instantaeous switchover - it's a gradual process, and part of that gradualness is having physical and emotional urges which one is not "ready" (by my culture's value system) to follow... just as one has the adjustment of hormones and other physical development over a period of years before bearing a child is a safe, healthy choice, so too, one has an adjustment emotionally/spiritually/etc before one is ready for intimacy/marriage.

 

I don't think it is healthy to develop one's s*xuality based on fantasy creations. I can see it as different for an adult, who has already had her own experience(s) and fully developed sense of self and s*xuality (though I would not use/read/view/consume those types of materials myself), but it seems harmful for a younger person to base her development and expectations on unrealistic words and images... not, imho, a recipe for a happy, satisfying marriage. ...but ymmv.

:iagree:Absolutely, and well said!

[Lovedtodeath]

Regarding sexual abuse and masturbation: Not all sexual abuse is r*pe. I know from personal experience and that of my family members that sexual abuse can encourage masturbation rather than discourage it.

[st_claire]

 

WRONG! I know of plenty of broken hearts that would have been avoided if porn was not available.

 

 

 

Person x looking at porn causes person x's heart to be broken? I don't see how. Or do you mean Person x's partner looking at porn causes person x's heart to be broken? This is usually routed in low self-esteem. One's partner looking at porn should in no way cause hurt feelings to that person. Or do you mean their partner cheated and it started with porn? In that case I would bet that porn or not, they would have cheated anyway. Or is it something else and I misunderstand?

[st_claire]

Regarding sexual abuse and masturbation: Not all sexual abuse is r*pe. I know from personal experience and that of my family members that sexual abuse can encourage masturbation rather than discourage it.

 

I'm sure it can happen, but you were talking about your experiences, and I was talking about mine. I don't know anyone where abuse encouraged masturbation.

 

ETA: And isn't this confusing cause and effect anyway? Masturbation certainly doesn't promote abuse.