How would you advise this family who wants to homeschool?

[StephanieZ]

I'm amazed at you gals who say she shouldn't even try. :001_huh: Whatever happened to self-learning, encouragement, and motivation to improve one's self? Some of you have written her completely off before she's even had a chance to find out what she needs to do. :confused:

 

That's all well and good, but responsible parenting trumps self improvement.

 

Every Single Time. Putting the child first is the foundation of responsible parenting.

 

It would be irresponsible to try to homeschool (presuming basically functional schools are available) if one was not a competent reader. Self-indulgent, childish, and IMHO, actually criminal.

 

Frankly, I'd go so far as to say it's the parents duty to MOVE to a decent school district if that is what it takes. Find a town/city with some jobs available and decent schools and reasonable social service/cost of living. . . Sell everything that isn't nailed down to get the $$ to move. . . Move, get social services, get kids in school, get jobs. . . Beg your relatives for help getting moved if you have to. Get welfare, get foodstamps, do whatever you have to in order to take care of those kids. In other words, Man Up!

 

If she wants to improve herself, she can do so while the kids are getting educated by someone else. Maybe she'll learn to read and then she can bring her kids home next year or the year after. . .

[swellmomma]

No way. Someone who has trouble reading EB White should NOT be homeschooling. IMHO, that should be illegal and probably is in plenty of places. Seems like asking for a child neglect case. . . maybe getting her kids taken away.

 

:001_huh: Very strong words about someone wanting to do what is best for her children all because she is not a strong reader. Insane.

[fivetails]

 

It would be irresponsible to try to homeschool (presuming basically functional schools are available) if one was not a competent reader. Self-indulgent, childish, and IMHO, actually criminal.

 

 

 

Criminal?? You've got to be kidding me. :blink:

[StephanieZ]

Criminal?? You've got to be kidding me. :blink:

 

Not at all. I'd argue it is educational neglect.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Am I the only one who thinks that homeschool is far less strain than ps?

I think it depends on what you are used to and what your values are. I think that breastfeeding is much easier than bottles. Many disagree. No one is wrong.

[StephanieZ]

:001_huh: Very strong words about someone wanting to do what is best for her children all because she is not a strong reader. Insane.

 

Yep. Strong words but I am not being insincere. I see you disagree and I am sure many people would.

 

Just my opinion, that's all.

[IsabelC]

If every home schooling parent had to pass tests in reading, math and whatever else I suspect that a fair few would get disqualified. I have a degree with first class honors, but I still sometimes learn things I'd never heard of before in the course of educating my 6yo. I don't think anybody who has never even met the family is really qualified to condemn them as criminal for wanting to home school.

[Lovedtodeath]

No way. Someone who has trouble reading EB White should NOT be homeschooling. IMHO, that should be illegal and probably is in plenty of places. Seems like asking for a child neglect case. . . maybe getting her kids taken away. Those kids should go to public school and she should look for paying work, IMHO. I'd advise the mom about where the better schools are (help her research it) and advise her on afterschooling bible, etc and using her "free time" while the kids are at school to improve her own literacy, get paying work, and do her daily tasks so she can enjoy her afterschool time with her kids.

 

Not everyone should homeschool. This is an open-shut case of someone who shouldn't IMHO.

I think that she would definitely run the risk of CPS looking into their education. Some parents end up in a custody battle over too many absenses from PS.

 

I do believe that she can improve her reading while teaching her children. Will she? That is yet to be seen.

 

I would advise her to use Elizabeth B's resources for herself and her children since she is low on funds.

 

Phonics Lessons

reading grade level test, the New Elizabethian Test and the Miller Word Identification Assessment (MWIA.) The MWIA is on Don Potter's Education Page.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Sara R]

I'd be really reluctant to encourage that. Even the best curriculum requires someone to teach it. Kids can't be self teaching until they themselves can read, and if her reading skills are that poor, can she reliably correct their reading until they are reading well? I wouldn't think so.

 

Also consider that reading problems are sometimes hereditary, and teaching a child with special academic needs is more difficult than the average student. I don't know what the nature of the medical needs are, but that could also make things difficult. Not to mention the foreclosure/job loss situation.

 

If these children don't learn to read well, her problems will be brought down to the next generation.

 

Homeschooling might be a possibility later, if her reading problems were instruction-related (whole language classroom?). She could supplement the children's education with phonics and teach herself and them. But I sure wouldn't plan on being the children's sole teacher without the ability to confidently read.

 

If dh lost his job, and if he feels so strongly about homeschooling, can he take charge of homeschooling while mom works?

[Aubrey]

That's all well and good, but responsible parenting trumps self improvement.

 

Every Single Time. Putting the child first is the foundation of responsible parenting.

 

It would be irresponsible to try to homeschool (presuming basically functional schools are available) if one was not a competent reader. Self-indulgent, childish, and IMHO, actually criminal.

 

Frankly, I'd go so far as to say it's the parents duty to MOVE to a decent school district if that is what it takes. Find a town/city with some jobs available and decent schools and reasonable social service/cost of living. . . Sell everything that isn't nailed down to get the $$ to move. . . Move, get social services, get kids in school, get jobs. . . Beg your relatives for help getting moved if you have to. Get welfare, get foodstamps, do whatever you have to in order to take care of those kids. In other words, Man Up!

 

If she wants to improve herself, she can do so while the kids are getting educated by someone else. Maybe she'll learn to read and then she can bring her kids home next year or the year after. . .

 

I'd recommend WTM to someone with this outlook. I don't have personal experience with this level of education, but acc'd to SWB's mom, it can be done. I believe her aunt & uncle were the ones who helped her, & they had some similar educational shortcomings.

 

As far as moving to a good sch district goes, one cannot call that a parental responsibility any more than one can call owning a nice car or house a parental responsibility. I'm sure they will if they can, but I'm sure that if it were up to them--if they had the resources--they wouldn't be moving in the first place.

 

If the mom can't read well, she probably can't make much $, so her income (vs hs'ing) is going to be negligible. IF she CHOOSES to hs, even for just a couple of yrs while the family gets back on its feet, she will likely gain academic skills herself, which could then be transferred to the workplace or applied toward further education.

 

Should she hs? I have no idea, really. I'm a strong proponent, & I'd happily support anyone who made that decision in whatever way I could. If the sch district avail is bad, I think hs'ing is very likely a better option, even w/ a parent who doesn't read well.

 

The key to a successful hs is a *dedicated* parent, not nec a well-educated one. I can think of plenty w/ less ed than me who'd probably do better than I manage. ;)

[Sara R]

Reading is different. Reading is the foundation of everything else, including math and all self-education. This is not just a fact here or there that the parent doesn't know yet.

[Starr]

She could also see about a friend or family member to help tutor (them both?).

[Caitilin]

I'd recommend WTM to someone with this outlook. I don't have personal experience with this level of education, but acc'd to SWB's mom, it can be done. I believe her aunt & uncle were the ones who helped her, & they had some similar educational shortcomings.

But I believe that the crucial difference between JW's aunt and uncle and this lady is that while they technically had only an 8th (?) grade education, what they actually KNEW was not commensurate with a modern 8th grade education--more like 12th in many areas, IIRC. The reason they were so helpful to JW was that they were actually educated, although a grade level description wouldn't show it. If this is a person who is struggling with EB White, she's not going to be helpful in parsing grammer, KWIM, still less other more demanding work. And yes, I realize that she's got only young children, but still--would any of you feel comfortable with a person with this background teaching your children? I certainly wouldn't. My 2 cents--YMMV, of course.

[Caitilin]

Reading is different. Reading is the foundation of everything else, including math and all self-education. This is not just a fact here or there that the parent doesn't know yet.

 

:iagree: completely.

[Joanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donna A.

I'm amazed at you gals who say she shouldn't even try. Whatever happened to self-learning, encouragement, and motivation to improve one's self? Some of you have written her completely off before she's even had a chance to find out what she needs to do.

 

I'm all about encouraging her to improve herself, to learn, to progress and to move forward.

 

But I'm not going to encourage her to homeschool her children when her own READING is not adequate.

 

This, from a staunch, idealogical homeschooler who encourages homeschoolers to stay the course nearly every time.

[kalanamak]

A Christian family I know have approached me to learn more about homeschooling. Their children, ages 6 & 8 are currently in a small country public school and doing OK, but not great. They are getting ready to move because they have lost their home due to forclosure (husband lost his job) and the husband has said they will not put their children in the public schools here.

 

So the mom is planning on homeschooling

 

Does she want to, or is she planning because hubby said so? Losing a house, moving, lack of confidence....I would try to get to know her better before offering an opinion. Have her observe your schooling. Talk about you state laws, and the some nuts and bolts of managing everything. Rather than advise a specific course, e.g. K12, gauge her reaction to your day: glowing with enthusiasm or pale and hyperventilating, and guide your advice from that. Just a thought.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Those of you who suggest she should homeschool no matter what need to remember that there are homeschoolers out there that should not be educating their children even though they have the legal right to. I know we don't like to talk about them but they do exist. Usually these hs'ers start out with the best of intentions but then loose their motivation for whatever reasons or because they are under educated and the stress of trying to keep up is overwhelming. Then their children's education stagnates. We have already established that this mom has reading deficiencys. If she is lacking in reading skills what other areas is she lacking in? Grammar and spelling are probably difficult for her. Does she have math skills, know basic World and American history or have a good understanding of the sciences? If she is constantly struggling to keep one step ahead of her children is she going to be an effective teacher? If the dc are in a small country school and not doing great I would be concerned that they have lds. Is she going to be able to deal with these things?

What are her motivations to homeschool. All we know is that the husband doesn't like the ps. I'm just guessing here but since they are coming from a small school the prospect of putting his children into a largely populated urban\city school is probably unappealing. Is this enough of a motivator for this mother to keep homeschooling even when it gets hard, when the kids don't cooperate, when she herself is having a hard time comprehending something?

 

I think the OP already has her answer. If her response to this woman wasn't a resounding "YES you definitely should homeschool" then I would say she has reasons to believe she shouldn't that may not just be the reading issue.

 

OP, don't allow this mother to transfer ownership of this decision to you. Be honest with her about your misgivings about her reading abilities. Tell her you don't feel comfortable advising her on something of this magnitude. Suggest she and her children get professionally evaluated. Give her an equal list of pros and cons based on your experiences, read through several homeschooling books with her. (since I'm assuming she can't read through them on her own) Answer her questions as objectionably as you can and tell her that you will support her no matter what her decision. DON'T tell her that anyone can homeschool because that simply is not true.

[Donna A.]

Well, without knowing more FACTS about the DEGREE of the mom's reading difficulties, so many of you have already judged and lynched the poor woman. Even the OP seems to have made that judgment, even though the woman didn't define WHY she thinks she might have trouble reading Trumpet of the Swan.

 

Michelle said:

 

"BUT BUT BUT here is the kicker, I found out she is not a very good reader. I showed her Trumpet of the Swans which I am reading right now to my younger girls and she said she "thinks" she could read that but it could be hard. "

 

Did she say WHY it would be hard for her to read the book? Did she elaborate on her problem at all? Why do you say she's "not a very good reader" because she said reading that particular book would be hard? Hard in what way? The size of the book? The size of the font/print style? The size of the words inside the book? Lack of self-confidence? Comprehension level? Is she dyslexic? Does she have visual processing problems? Is it something that needs professional help, or would a remedial reading program be sufficient to get her up to speed?

 

You said:

 

"I told her to get books on tape and follow along with a book to improve her own reading, but I am concerned that maybe she is just not going to be able to give her daughters a good education if she can't read very well."

 

So you've already decided the quality of her children's education even without knowing to what extent her reading difficulties go? What did she say about the books on tape and improving her own reading? Did she have a reply? Was she open to that? Did she ask for anymore suggestions other than wanting you to evaluate her children to see if they're up to grade level?

 

Why does she want YOU to evaluate her children? Is it because you have training in this area, or is it because you're a good friend and she comfortable with you? Did you point her to the many diagnostic tests available by various curriculum providers? Or standardized testing?

 

You said:

 

"The youngest has several medical issues that make it difficult to have long school days due to exhaustion. "

 

What kind of medical issues? Asthma? ADHD? Physical disabilities? A speech disorder? Exhaustion for whom... the child, or the mom? And why would the school days have to be "long"? She's only 6. How much time has to be spent doing academics with the child? She needs to be able to read and do basic beginning arithmetic, right? And if long school days are difficult because of medical issues, how would having her a classroom setting for 7 or 8 hours a day be helpful?

 

"Their children, ages 6 & 8 are currently in a small country public school and doing OK, but not great."

If they're already not doing "great" in a school setting, then how do we know being homeschooled with a mom who finds Trumpet "hard" would be any worse? Obviously the teachers and administrators of their current school aren't doing that "great" of a job with them, either. :glare:

 

"and the husband has said they will not put their children in the public schools here.... So the mom is planning on homeschooling,"

You don't say whether it's the dad pushing mom into homeschooling, or whether this is something the mom wants to do. You also don't say what he plans for his level of involvement to be. Does he have another job prospect lined up? Will he be working two jobs to make ends meet, or have to take a job that takes him away from home a lot? Or does he plan to help get the homeschool up and running while he's looking for a job?

 

"and was thinking of using K-12 (online charter school) but they are strong christians and are very concerned about the content and time required to teach the children."

 

Sounds to me like they're VERY concerned about the welfare of their children. I applaud them.

 

"The mom needs something completely laid out and easy to teach"

 

This sounds like something MANY moms say, even those who CAN read well. Again, I applaud her for recognizing that she can't do something as heavily mom-involved or mom-led as WTM. I still think ACE would be a good option for them... OR, if they can't afford to buy ACE for two children, perhaps something very basic, thorough, scripted, inexpensive, and non-consumable would be a better option. I'm thinking of Reading Made Easy, Rod & Staff math, and FIAR, perhaps. And a library card. Those would be great curriculum choices for her children's ages, and if phonics is the mom's problem (or even visual processing), she could certainly use the help that she herself would glean from teaching RME to her daughter. It is very doable.

 

We just don't have enough factual information to be making all the judgment calls that have been expressed in this thread, or even in the OP for that matter. The information given to us is too vague. :confused:

[EKS]

BUT BUT BUT here is the kicker, I found out she is not a very good reader. I showed her Trumpet of the Swans which I am reading right now to my younger girls and she said she "thinks" she could read that but it could be hard.

 

 

 

Does she mean she couldn't read it at all or that she couldn't read it aloud?

 

There is a huge difference.

 

I had huge problems reading aloud from anything other than the simplest children's books when my first son was born. Back when he was 7 and I read Stuart Little to him, I found it to be excruciating. But I pushed myself, particularly since we started homeschooling and I just recently finished reading Jane Eyre aloud.

 

I can pretty much read anything aloud now, and fairly well at that.

 

So if she's having issues with reading aloud, these can be overcome.

Edited November 3, 2009 by EKS

[Joanne]

The tag to this thread and also this:

 

We just don't have enough factual information to be making all the judgment calls that have been expressed in this thread, or even in the OP for that matter. The information given to us is too vague.

 

Are silly given the medium of communication we are on. It's a *message board* for homeschoolers. Certainly we are going to respond to a thread asking for - soliciting - feedback on whether a mom should endeavor to take on a homeschooling venture if she's not confident reading Trumpet.

 

Not only is it a message board for homeschoolers, it's one that is hosted by an author and leader in the homeschooling community who believes in a literature rich homeschool environment and the board itself is populated by "readers".

 

We didn't say that the woman being discussed in the OP was {insert character trait}. We simply said that encouraging homeschooling given the information we have is not something we are comfortable with.

 

Should we talk instead about Abeka, Thanksgiving recipes and bookshelves?

[HollyinNNV]

Well, without knowing more FACTS about the DEGREE of the mom's reading difficulties, so many of you have already judged and lynched the poor woman.

 

Wow. Lynching is a pretty strong word. It does not fit the posts, in my opinion. There is just a group of us that don't believe that this particular situation is a good one for homeschooling. We haven't judged or lynched her. We have just stated our opinion.

[5LittleMonkeys]

First of all I haven't read any replies that have said this woman is a bad mother or stupid. So we aren't passing judgement on her personally. We are responding to a question someone has put forth and we are basing our responses on the information we have been given. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what we do on this forum? :confused: I would hate it if I asked a question about something and the only reply I got back was "Can't answer due to lack of every detail, Sorry" If I were in the OP shoes I would want exactly the type of responses she has been getting. I would want to hear all the pros and all the cons and the reasons behind them.

 

No one is ever going to agree on this topic. We all think we are right but it isn't us that has to look this poor mother in the face and talk to her about it. I would not want to be in the OP's shoes. If she encourages her to homeschool and it turns out to be a disaster she will feel awful and if she advises not to homeschool the mother will want to know why and then the OP is faced with having to be honest about her reasons. This could cause the woman to feel hurt or even angry. My original opinion stands. Don't tell her she should or shouldn't but support her in her journey to figure it out on her own. Stay neutral.

[Caribbean Queen]

How about suggesting she work on improving her reading skills this school year and reconsider homeschooling this summer?

[Donna A.]

First of all I haven't read any replies that have said this woman is a bad mother or stupid. So we aren't passing judgement on her personally.

 

Oh no? Some of the words and phrases used in this thread were "criminal", "neglect", "self-indulgent", "educational neglect", "child neglect".... Those are all adjectives passing judgment. "Not a very good reader" was the decision made by the OP just because the woman said that reading Trumpet would be hard. "Someone who has low literacy" was another phrase used without knowing exactly WHY Trumpet would be "hard". "An educator who can't grasp the material" was another. I've seen a LOT of judgment statements made in this thread.

 

We are responding to a question someone has put forth and we are basing our responses on the information we have been given.

Which is why I posted again asking the OP more specific questions..... who hasn't even come back to this thread to respond or offer more information, btw. :confused:

 

"Can't answer due to lack of every detail, Sorry"

No one in this thread blew her off. Yes, some of us have asked for more details, but no one said they couldn't answer at all. In fact, the OP has been given a LOT of advice.... from both ends of the spectrum. My "not enough facts" comment was referring to the character judgments that have been made against this woman (and family's) character, motives, and abilities.

 

If I were in the OP shoes I would want exactly the type of responses she has been getting. I would want to hear all the pros and all the cons and the reasons behind them.

It would be nice to have the OP chime into her own thread again, to find out what she's thinking and whether she has anymore information to offer.

 

No one is ever going to agree on this topic. We all think we are right but it isn't us that has to look this poor mother in the face and talk to her about it. I would not want to be in the OP's shoes.

Again, that's why I asked the OP some more specific questions. If she's the one who's going to be advising her, she needs to think through the situation a little further.

 

If she encourages her to homeschool and it turns out to be a disaster she will feel awful

That's happened to a lot of moms who CAN read well.

 

Don't tell her she should or shouldn't but support her in her journey to figure it out on her own. Stay neutral.

That's the opinion on which my advice was based. But many in this thread have already decided that she either can't or shouldn't homeschool (despite not having more information). That's not neutral.

[Renee in NC]

Frankly, I'd go so far as to say it's the parents duty to MOVE to a decent school district if that is what it takes. Find a town/city with some jobs available and decent schools and reasonable social service/cost of living. . . Sell everything that isn't nailed down to get the $$ to move. . . Move, get social services, get kids in school, get jobs. . . Beg your relatives for help getting moved if you have to. Get welfare, get foodstamps, do whatever you have to in order to take care of those kids. In other words, Man Up!

 

 

 

Can you tell me where this place is? I'd love to live there!:lol::tongue_smilie:

[ezrabean2005]

No way. Someone who has trouble reading EB White should NOT be homeschooling. IMHO, that should be illegal and probably is in plenty of places. Seems like asking for a child neglect case. . . maybe getting her kids taken away. Those kids should go to public school and she should look for paying work, IMHO. I'd advise the mom about where the better schools are (help her research it) and advise her on afterschooling bible, etc and using her "free time" while the kids are at school to improve her own literacy, get paying work, and do her daily tasks so she can enjoy her afterschool time with her kids.

 

Not everyone should homeschool. This is an open-shut case of someone who shouldn't IMHO.

 

This is the part where it goes too far. These are pretty major claims from someone who still knows very little about the situation.

[ElizabethB]

I would give both her and her children the NRRF Reading Grade Level test and the MWIA. Her MWIA scores are helpful for determining how reading remediation will go, someone with true organic dyslexia will miss the same number of words on both sections and read them at the same speed, and will most likely take years to remediate. Someone with sight word induced problems that can mimic some dyslexic traits will read the phonetic words slower and miss more phonetic words. They can be remediated a lot faster. My phonics lessons followed by someone working one on one with her with "We All Can Read," or Webster's Speller should be helpful in that case.

 

There are computer programs that can read any text aloud (I think Lovedtodeath posted about one free one she found) and pens that you can buy that scan in text.

 

She should also be able to use the 1879 McGuffey readers successfully after she learned the marking system, they have all the difficult words marked for pronunciation.

 

Many of my students have learned even more by viewing my movies several times, the 2nd time through after she has it down a bit, she could watch with her children and they could all say the words and write the spelling words together.

[EKS]

No way. Someone who has trouble reading EB White should NOT be homeschooling. IMHO, that should be illegal and probably is in plenty of places. Seems like asking for a child neglect case. . . maybe getting her kids taken away. Those kids should go to public school and she should look for paying work, IMHO. I'd advise the mom about where the better schools are (help her research it) and advise her on afterschooling bible, etc and using her "free time" while the kids are at school to improve her own literacy, get paying work, and do her daily tasks so she can enjoy her afterschool time with her kids.

 

Not everyone should homeschool. This is an open-shut case of someone who shouldn't IMHO.

 

Do we *know* that she meant that she couldn't read it at all? She could have just meant that reading it aloud would be a problem. Some people never develop skill with reading aloud and it takes time to do so.

[joannqn]

This was my first thought. However, if I think about my math abilities I would be a hypocrite to say something about someone's reading abilities. I work on math every single day and I really feel like I'm learning a lot and will be able to help my children. I am very motivated to do the best job I can. Maybe this woman feels the same? I can't say for sure, but giving the benefit of the doubt you don't think a person can ever find a way to make it work?

 

 

Not being able to do math well and not reading well aren't equal, in my opinion. If you can read well, you can learn anything else, including math. If you can't read well, you are at a major disadvantage. Scholastic lists Trumpet of the Swan as 5.1 grade level, or ages 9-12. That's pretty low. Her older daughter, if she is and stays at grade level, would be reading better than mom within a couple of years. Once the older daughter reaches that point, mom wouldn't be able to help her with any of her work because it would most likely be written above her own reading level.

 

I'm not saying she can't do it, but I do think she must be willing to work on her own skills, or find a suitable tutor for the kids.

[zaichiki]

I know of two blind women who homeschool. One uses a reader device and the other works hard to get some of the curriculum materials in braille. Unfortunately, most homeschooling materials (other than trade books) aren't available in braille.

 

Anyway, these ladies, from what little I know, are doing a great job and their kids' academic abilities are advanced.

 

I think the pp who mentioned that more info is needed is correct: WHY is the reading a problem? English a second language? Dyslexia? Visual problems? IQ level? There could be SO many reasons... not all of which would be a barrier to homeschooling well.

 

OP: Good luck with your decision.

(I'd *always* feel stress at recommending homeschooling or any specific type of education, even if it was apparent that there were NO reading problems. Who knows what's best for someone else's kid anyway?)