Health professionals asking about discipline

[ThatCyndiGirl]

For the OP,

The first thing you need to concern yourself with are the laws that pertain to this issue. KNOW your rights!! I also wanted to say that I think it would be wise to NEVER post things of this nature again on the forum. These women don't even know you and yet that has not stopped them from assuming that you are a monster for the answers you gave. Come on ladies!! It's fine to talk about how you think spanking is wrong, but is another thing to make everyone who admits to spanking there kids child abusers.

 

 

 

I don't think that anyone thinks that the OP is a monster. I certainly can't speak for everyone on this board, or everyone who has posted to this thread, but I don't think that.

 

I am against spanking. This isn't about that.

 

She asked about being asked that question. Someone looked up Candadian law. Spanking with an object is considered abuse under Canadian law.

 

That is a big difference. She has been advised to secure an attorney. I think that is good advice.

[Seeker]

I believe that they have that right.

If you are willing to answer these questions, then I support your decision, but please don't get rights and mandates confused. They don't have the right, but they may be mandated.

[Dawn in OH]

I don't think that anyone thinks that the OP is a monster. I certainly can't speak for everyone on this board, or everyone who has posted to this thread, but I don't think that.

 

I am against spanking. This isn't about that.

 

She asked about being asked that question. Someone looked up Candadian law. Spanking with an object is considered abuse under Canadian law.

 

 

 

For what it's worth; I don't think the OP is a monster either. And I've spanked with a spoon, because I am one of those people that read, and agrees with the idea that your hand (an instrument of love) should not be used for a spanking.

 

Although I do admit, I do not like to spank and will not do it unless as a last resort. I try to find ways to avoid spanking.

 

I am NOT religious in the least, but I do believe in the "spare the rod spoil the child" theory. I grew up not doing a lot of "bad" things other kids did because I knew I would get my butt beat, and didn't want that.

 

While spanking may not be for ALL parents, I do think that in some instances (and for some children), it can be an effective tool for discipline.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

If you are willing to answer these questions, then I support your decision, but please don't get rights and mandates confused. They don't have the right, but they may be mandated.

 

 

I guess I'm confused in where you think the difference lies. If someone is mandated to do something, to me that means that they have been given a right to do it, or are we just talking semantics here?

 

 

I don't know how medical professionals could be told, "you are mandated to ask questions, but you don't have a right to ask questions". ??

[Lifelearnin']

I don't think that anyone thinks that the OP is a monster. I certainly can't speak for everyone on this board, or everyone who has posted to this thread, but I don't think that.

 

I am against spanking. This isn't about that.

 

She asked about being asked that question. Someone looked up Candadian law. Spanking with an object is considered abuse under Canadian law.

 

That is a big difference. She has been advised to secure an attorney. I think that is good advice.

 

That's only part of the story. There are people questioning why she would use a spoon, talking about her beating with a spoon, and equating her with child abusers who would admit to abusing their kids. I totally agree with her knowing what the law says on this issue. Leave it at that! She didn't ask for advice on how to discipline her kids or if everyone agreed with her. Like I said before, the OP should have never brought it up here. This topic gets too heated and becomes more about our own personal feelings than the original advice she was asking for.

[Seeker]

I guess I'm confused in where you think the difference lies. If someone is mandated to do something, to me that means that they have been given a right to do it, or are we just talking semantics here?

 

 

I don't know how medical professionals could be told, "you are mandated to ask questions, but you don't have a right to ask questions". ??

There is a HUGE difference. A right is something you are entitled to and a mandate is something you are legally obligated to do.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'm just imagining a parent saying to a nurse or dr, "I understand that you are legally mandated to ask this question, but you don't have the right".

 

It sounds absurd.

 

I understand what you are saying in how you are using those two words: we have a right to homeschool, but we are not mandated by law to homeschool. Totally understandable, but I don't think it applies in this situation.

 

When people intentionally and repeatedly dodge a reasonable question (and we disagree that the quesioning is reasonable) then it quickly begins to look like, "what are they trying to HIDE?!" To be clear, I am not talking about YOU and any question I have asked YOU, you have been quite forthcoming in our conversation. I am speaking directly to medical professionals asking questions of their patients/patients parents.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

No kidding, right? And I'm not even Canadian. I just live here.

Me neither... I have never even been to Canada.:)

[Seeker]

I'm just imagining a parent saying to a nurse or dr, "I understand that you are legally mandated to ask this question, but you don't have the right".

 

It sounds absurd.

Really? It sounds right to me. ;)

 

Although, I would not advise that approach either. I am sticking with the "quid pro quo" approach personally. Much more fun.

[Greta]

I'm just imagining a parent saying to a nurse or dr, "I understand that you are legally mandated to ask this question, but you don't have the right".

 

It sounds absurd.

 

 

Really? It sounds right to me. ;)

 

What about "I understand that you are legally mandated to ask this question, but I have a right not to answer." Isn't that more what we're getting at here? Or am I missing something? :001_smile:

[fivetails]

Well, here's one Canadian who has never - NEVER - been asked any sort of "parenting" questions by any pediatricians, family doctors, nurses, or whatever. :)

 

The only "parenting" convos I've gotten into have been ones that *I* initiated with a few specific people when I wanted some outside ideas in terms of altering a few of ds10's behaviours - and that was years ago. (Special needs kiddo)

 

Then again, we lived in a small place and had the same ped & family doctor forever, so they knew us.... we moved last autumn and as the kids haven't needed to see a doctor in our new province yet, I can't speak to what they're like here.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Really? It sounds right to me. ;)

 

Although, I would not advise that approach either. I am sticking with the "quid pro quo" approach personally. Much more fun.

 

 

I truly hope that no one here is considering the quid pro quo method of "non-answering". It's like me going to the Dr and she asks, "what was the date of your LMP?" and me asking HER. ??? She's not the patient.

 

 

I don't know what one would gain by doing something that a reasonable person would suspect is antagonizing. It is like playing the echo game when you were kids.

 

It is still seen as evasive. THAT would raise red flags.

[Harriet Vane]

I think there is confusion over the term "mandated reporter." Mandated reporter doesn't mean mandated interviewer. Mandated reporter is a term for someone who can be help liable if they don't report evidences of abuse or neglect. It does not bestow any special rights upon the person.

 

Well said.

[PineFarmMom]

I truly hope that no one here is considering the quid pro quo method of "non-answering". It's like me going to the Dr and she asks, "what was the date of your LMP?" and me asking HER. ??? She's not the patient.

 

 

I don't know what one would gain by doing something that a reasonable person would suspect is antagonizing. It is like playing the echo game when you were kids.

 

It is still seen as evasive. THAT would raise red flags.

 

No, actually, it's nothing like that. My doc asking a person a question a MEDICAL question is much different than them delving into parenting questions which have nothing to do with the visit.

[Pink Fairy]

According to the law and the OP's own admission to beating with a spoon... yes this is an abusive parent.

 

Why would you use this word? It's emotionally charged, and it's not AT ALL what the OP said. This is a perfect example of why people are reluctant to be interrogated by strangers. It's too easy to be misheard, misinterpreted, and misquoted by those who think they know better.

[CAMom]

I hardly think it's traumatic to answer "how do you discipline your children?" In addition, while stressful, having Children's Aid come to call on an unsubstantiated case is hardly traumatic.

 

And yes, I think it's worth it. If they come visit me for something silly, that's fine - particularly since it means they're also visiting the people who are beating their children regularly as well.

 

OK...I've been trying to read this entire thread before I respond but I. just. can't!!

 

Have you ever been falsely accused and had the "authorities" visit you? I can tell you from first hand experience that it is, indeed, very traumatic!

 

Several years ago someone saw fit to call 911 and report that my husband "beats me and drags the children around by their hair." Nothing and I mean nothing could possibly be further from the truth.

 

But the police showed up at my door and, yes, they did traumatize me! It is traumatizing to have the cops demand entrance to your home without a warrant telling you that they are going to "examine" your children. It is traumatizing to tell them that you are not comfortable permitting such entrance and having them push right by you and let themselves into the house where they start walking through to find your kids. It is traumatizing to have such outrageous allegations made against your gentle and loving husband. It is traumatizing to your children to have the police appear in their home and start questioning them.

 

It is traumatizing!

 

This is outrageous! I can't believe the things I've read towards the original poster. Someone even referred to her discipline as "your plastic spoon beatings." Are you freakin' kidding me? This is exactly the reason why we are so strongly against this intrusion! Some health care provider can meet you for 5 minutes, ask a couple of "innocent" questions with no context whatsoever, and turn around and report you child services.

 

When, in reality, the OP could mean that, on serious occasion, she administers one swat on a covered bottom with the handle of a spoon in order to give a sting without leaving a single mark. She could have chosen that implement because it is flexible and not rigid and, therefore, carries little risk of even leaving a red mark. She may routinely swat her own leg with said implement to continuously be aware of how hard she is spanking to make sure that it a merely a sting.

 

And, yet, that nurse could take that one answer and turn it into some fantasy that this mother is using "plastic spoon beatings." Where in the world is the justice in that?

 

My own ped has a habit of asking me how many servings of fruits and veggies my kids eat. He also tells me every time I go in that kids should never eat hamburgers or french fries. So, what's next? We have mandatory reporting that parents are not following the food pyramid? What about the mom here who posted about letting her teens drink two cans of soda a day? Isn't it obvious that she is risking their health? Let the nurse call CPS on her, too.

 

It's never going to end! We are definitely like the frog in the pot who eventually gets boiled.

[Care]

OK...I've been trying to read this entire thread before I respond but I. just. can't!!

 

Have you ever been falsely accused and had the "authorities" visit you? I can tell you from first hand experience that it is, indeed, very traumatic!

 

Several years ago someone saw fit to call 911 and report that my husband "beats me and drags the children around by their hair." Nothing and I mean nothing could possibly be further from the truth.

 

But the police showed up at my door and, yes, they did traumatize me! It is traumatizing to have the cops demand entrance to your home without a warrant telling you that they are going to "examine" your children. It is traumatizing to tell them that you are not comfortable permitting such entrance and having them push right by you and let themselves into the house where they start walking through to find your kids. It is traumatizing to have such outrageous allegations made against your gentle and loving husband. It is traumatizing to your children to have the police appear in their home and start questioning them.

 

It is traumatizing!

Yes. Yes, I have. And while the visit from the cops, breaking down my door at 11:00 at night, one week after I had returned home from a birth-rape with my infant son WAS traumatizing, the visit from the social worker was not. Distinct difference between police officers demanding (or forcing) entry into your home and a social worker making an appointment to come visit your house.

 

As a matter of fact, I've been falsely accused twice. Once for "imminent distress" and once for "unsafe feeding practices." Both, after the initial mess, were dismissed. Neither visit *from the social worker* was particularly traumatic.

[Plucky]

According to the law and the OP's own admission to beating with a spoon... yes this is an abusive parent.

 

You're lying. She never said beat. Another poster sampled a spoon on her leg and said that it only stung. This is exactly why people are hesitant to answer questions, because people with an agenda will twist their words.

[pqr]

OK...I've been trying to read this entire thread before I respond but I. just. can't!!

 

Have you ever been falsely accused and had the "authorities" visit you? I can tell you from first hand experience that it is, indeed, very traumatic!

 

Several years ago someone saw fit to call 911 and report that my husband "beats me and drags the children around by their hair." Nothing and I mean nothing could possibly be further from the truth.

 

But the police showed up at my door and, yes, they did traumatize me! It is traumatizing to have the cops demand entrance to your home without a warrant telling you that they are going to "examine" your children. It is traumatizing to tell them that you are not comfortable permitting such entrance and having them push right by you and let themselves into the house where they start walking through to find your kids. It is traumatizing to have such outrageous allegations made against your gentle and loving husband. It is traumatizing to your children to have the police appear in their home and start questioning them.

 

It is traumatizing!

 

This is outrageous! I can't believe the things I've read towards the original poster. Someone even referred to her discipline as "your plastic spoon beatings." Are you freakin' kidding me? This is exactly the reason why we are so strongly against this intrusion! Some health care provider can meet you for 5 minutes, ask a couple of "innocent" questions with no context whatsoever, and turn around and report you child services.

 

When, in reality, the OP could mean that, on serious occasion, she administers one swat on a covered bottom with the handle of a spoon in order to give a sting without leaving a single mark. She could have chosen that implement because it is flexible and not rigid and, therefore, carries little risk of even leaving a red mark. She may routinely swat her own leg with said implement to continuously be aware of how hard she is spanking to make sure that it a merely a sting.

 

And, yet, that nurse could take that one answer and turn it into some fantasy that this mother is using "plastic spoon beatings." Where in the world is the justice in that?

 

My own ped has a habit of asking me how many servings of fruits and veggies my kids eat. He also tells me every time I go in that kids should never eat hamburgers or french fries. So, what's next? We have mandatory reporting that parents are not following the food pyramid? What about the mom here who posted about letting her teens drink two cans of soda a day? Isn't it obvious that she is risking their health? Let the nurse call CPS on her, too.

 

It's never going to end! We are definitely like the frog in the pot who eventually gets boiled.

 

Oh come on.....we have professionals out there who know so much more than the average person. They can tell us how to raise our children, they can invade our privacy, they can make calls upon our fitness to be parents, husbands, wives, they have seen it all and they have decided to let us know what is good for us.

Never mind small things such as the Constitution and the concept of innocence until proven guilty....that is a mere distraction.

Just listen to the professionals and all will be made right. After all they have seen so much more than us that our opinions are rendered unimportant and just plain silly.

[Care]

You're lying. She never said beat. Another poster sampled a spoon on her leg and said that it only stung. This is exactly why people are hesitant to answer questions, because people with an agenda will twist their words.

The word "beat" is irrelevant in this case. The LAW states that it is abuse to strike a child with an implement. Therefore, spanking your child with a spoon is ILLEGAL, and legally defined as abuse.

[Plucky]

Yes. Yes, I have. And while the visit from the cops, breaking down my door at 11:00 at night, one week after I had returned home from a birth-rape with my infant son WAS traumatizing, the visit from the social worker was not. Distinct difference between police officers demanding (or forcing) entry into your home and a social worker making an appointment to come visit your house.

 

As a matter of fact, I've been falsely accused twice. Once for "imminent distress" and once for "unsafe feeding practices." Both, after the initial mess, were dismissed. Neither visit *from the social worker* was particularly traumatic.

 

Do I dare ask what a birth-rape is?

[Care]

Do I dare ask what a birth-rape is?

You are absolutely welcome to ask about it. And someday, if I have the mental capacity to discuss it in depth with people who don't live in my house without breaking into tears, I might tell you about mine.

 

As it stands, birth-rape is generally defined as an assault on a pregnant woman during the course of her giving birth. Generally perpetrated by doctors and/or nurses, and occasionally assisted by the victim's family and/or friends.

[Plucky]

You are absolutely welcome to ask about it. And someday, if I have the mental capacity to discuss it in depth with people who don't live in my house without breaking into tears, I might tell you about mine.

 

As it stands, birth-rape is generally defined as an assault on a pregnant woman during the course of her giving birth. Generally perpetrated by doctors and/or nurses, and occasionally assisted by the victim's family and/or friends.

 

With that, I think I'm done here. :001_huh:

[CAMom]

 

 

 

 

I don't recall anyone equating her to a monster for doing it, but simply suggesting that she find an attorney ASAP.

 

Really? Because Audrey called her a child abuser on page 19:

 

According to the law and the OP's own admission to beating with a spoon... yes this is an abusive parent.

[mommaduck]

Do I dare ask what a birth-rape is?

http://www.truebirth.com/2008/02/more-than-a-traumatic-birth/

[secular_mom]

You're lying. She never said beat. Another poster sampled a spoon on her leg and said that it only stung. This is exactly why people are hesitant to answer questions, because people with an agenda will twist their words.

 

What is the 'agenda' of a person who believes that striking a child with an object is abuse? What is the 'agenda' of a person who would call such action 'beating'? :001_huh:

[mirth]

... medical care teams should always be feared primarily for their bills and ability to turn a 9:30am appt into something you wait until noon to start. But,

 

Answering the questions of a mandated reporter serves no advantage to me if we assume I am innocent. Even if they are really screening to give a Mother Of The Year Award at the clinic, yeah that's okay. Smile. Pass me the bean dip.

Edited October 29, 2009 by mirth

[Care]

Really? Because Audrey called her a child abuser on page 19:

Correct. As, according to the law where the OP lives, it IS abusive to strike a child with an implement. Therefore, people who strike their children with implements are, by law, abusing them. Hence the suggestion that she find an attorney ASAP to try to keep the situation from getting any worse.

[Plucky]

What is the 'agenda' of a person who believes that striking a child with an object is abuse? What is the 'agenda' of a person who would call such action 'beating'? :001_huh:

 

The fact that they believe their way is the only way, and if others do not do things their way then there will be punishment. I've seen it on this board over and over.

[PineFarmMom]

Why would you use this word? It's emotionally charged, and it's not AT ALL what the OP said. This is a perfect example of why people are reluctant to be interrogated by strangers. It's too easy to be misheard, misinterpreted, and misquoted by those who think they know better.

 

When the word "beating" is used in these instances, I always view that it is an intent to remove any credibility from the opinions of or parenting choices of the person who chooses to spank and to move it out of a disciplinary category and into an abuse category.

[Plucky]

When the word "beating" is used in these instances, I always view that it is an intent to remove any credibility from the opinions of or parenting choices of the person who chooses to spank and to move it out of a disciplinary category and into an abuse category.

 

Well said.

[Care]

http://www.truebirth.com/2008/02/more-than-a-traumatic-birth/

Thank you for having a far more succinct, direct answer than my own. Appreciated.

[Plucky]

Thank you for having a far more succinct, direct answer than my own. Appreciated.

 

I had 2 bad hospital births, which led me to homebirth. I'm as pro-homebirth as they come, but I'd never call it birth-rape. Maybe I've missed the new lingo. I think that is too strong a word. You seem to run in the extremes.

[Seeker]

What about "I understand that you are legally mandated to ask this question, but I have a right not to answer." Isn't that more what we're getting at here? Or am I missing something? :001_smile:

You got your "rights" right. :001_smile:

[secular_mom]

The fact that they believe their way is the only way, and if others do not do things their way then there will be punishment. I've seen it on this board over and over.

:lol: I've seen this over and over on this board too, but not in relation to disciplining children. ;)

[Tangerine]

When the word "beating" is used in these instances, I always view that it is an intent to remove any credibility from the opinions of or parenting choices of the person who chooses to spank and to move it out of a disciplinary category and into an abuse category.

 

It seems when spanking threads come around, someone always takes exception to using a term besides spanking. I use "hit". While hitting, or beating may be charged, it seems too often the terms spank or swat are preceded by the phrase "just a little". As in "just a little smack on the bottom". I think this sanitizes what I see as nothing better, and perhaps worse, than hitting a spouse would be. I use the word I see as appropriate. I wouldn't call hitting a child with a spoon "beating", because beating to me seems like something intended to cause grievous injury. I don't believe that is the intent, nor result of hitting someone with a spoon. So I go with hitting for such instances.

[jplain]

I had 2 bad hospital births, which led me to homebirth. I'm as pro-homebirth as they come, but I'd never call it birth-rape. Maybe I've missed the new lingo. I think that is too strong a word. You seem to run in the extremes.

Not all bad births are traumatic.

 

You weren't there for her birth, and you certainly didn't experience it for yourself, so you don't get to decide whether the word rape is too strong for her to use.

 

If I'd had vaginal exams forced on me by a callous medical professional, I might very well liken it to rape.

[Care]

Handled better later, really.

[Plucky]

Not all bad births are traumatic.

 

You weren't there for her birth, and you certainly didn't experience it for yourself, so you don't get to decide whether the word rape is too strong for her to use.

 

If I'd had vaginal exams forced on me by a callous medical professional, I might very well liken it to rape.

 

Fair enough.

[Care]

Not all bad births are traumatic.

 

You weren't there for her birth, and you certainly didn't experience it for yourself, so you don't get to decide whether the word rape is too strong for her to use.

 

If I'd had vaginal exams forced on me by a callous medical professional, I might very well liken it to rape.

Thanks.

 

Let's hear it for thread derailment!

 

But really, thank you.

[mommaduck]

Thank you for having a far more succinct, direct answer than my own. Appreciated.

 

Your welcome.

 

 

True Blue, for some women, yes, birth-rape is too strong of a word. But for others, it is beyond traumatizing.

 

Care, by the same token, having a social worker show up on your doorstep may not have been traumatizing to you, but for others it can wreck havoc. Just knowing that someone is out there telling horrid lies that could lead to a temporary break up of the family and traumatization of the children or break a breastfeeding relationship with a babe is extremely traumatizing, emotionally distressing, and draining.

[CAMom]

 

Care, by the same token, having a social worker show up on your doorstep may not have been traumatizing to you, but for others it can wreck havoc. Just knowing that someone is out there telling horrid lies that could lead to a temporary break up of the family and traumatization of the children or break a breastfeeding relationship with a babe is extremely traumatizing, emotionally distressing, and draining.

 

Yes! Thank you for saying that.:grouphug:

[Seeker]

I truly hope that no one here is considering the quid pro quo method of "non-answering". It's like me going to the Dr and she asks, "what was the date of your LMP?" and me asking HER. ??? She's not the patient.

 

 

I don't know what one would gain by doing something that a reasonable person would suspect is antagonizing. It is like playing the echo game when you were kids.

 

It is still seen as evasive. THAT would raise red flags.

In this case, the parent was not the patient either, but it all goes back to my original argument: The questions are no more relevant to the purpose of why we were there than the questions that would be asked of the nurse, however I have the just as much right to know the same things about the people who are examining and treating my daughter. Perhaps if they don't answer, it raises red flags for me. Perhaps it makes me suspect them of abuse. Perhaps someone needs to be checking on them.

[Care]

Care, by the same token, having a social worker show up on your doorstep may not have been traumatizing to you, but for others it can wreck havoc. Just knowing that someone is out there telling horrid lies that could lead to a temporary break up of the family and traumatization of the children or break a breastfeeding relationship with a babe is extremely traumatizing, emotionally distressing, and draining.

Okay, see, I think this might be an issue of delineation - see, I think the traumatic thing is having the people out there, and not the social worker's visit in and of itself. Of course, that's my own experience - as per usual.

[pqr]

I think this sanitizes what I see as nothing better, and perhaps worse, than hitting a spouse would be.

 

Wow so now a good percentage of the fathers of posters on this board are in the same box as husbands who beat their wives?

 

I think your perceptions may be a little skewed as few, if any, would deem spanking an errant child akin to wife beating.

[Sputterduck]

My take on this is a medical professional is a hired worker. If someone gets too nosy, I would fire them and hire another. And I *was* an abused person. Snooping around looking for abusers doesn't help. I had one doctor who knew and she didn't tell anyone. And thank God she didn't. If she had, I would have been afraid to seek medical help from then on, which would have been even more dangerous.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Originally Posted by mommaduck

Care, by the same token, having a social worker show up on your doorstep may not have been traumatizing to you, but for others it can wreck havoc. Just knowing that someone is out there telling horrid lies that could lead to a temporary break up of the family and traumatization of the children or break a breastfeeding relationship with a babe is extremely traumatizing, emotionally distressing, and draining.

 

 

This is how I see it.

[mommaduck]

Of course, that's my own experience - as per usual.

Yes. I think everyone has their own triggers for what is and is not traumatizing. A death of an elder is traumatizing for some people and simply a fact of life for others, kwim? No one reacts the same. And many times it's the circumstances around the incident (how a social worker reacts or what led up to a woman being strapped to a bed) that can determine how traumatic the incident it.

 

Just trying to walk the path of grace on this one ;) Hugs to both.

[Jugglin'5]

 

I've got zero tolerance for the Nanny State movement in the United States. I'd rather cuddle a cockroach than humor even one simpering fascist with a savior complex.

 

:thumbup:

[Elizabeth Conley]

I guess I'm confused in where you think the difference lies. If someone is mandated to do something, to me that means that they have been given a right to do it, or are we just talking semantics here?

 

 

I don't know how medical professionals could be told, "you are mandated to ask questions, but you don't have a right to ask questions". ??

 

How about "You're mandated to ask questions, but you aren't entitled to answers."

 

Asking is not the same as demanding. Asking is definitely not the same as extorting. Asking is reasonable, threatening people with unreasonable searches if you don't get your answers is tyranny.