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Just saw this H1N1 article on yahoo: What do you think?


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So, according to the CDC, there have been 2,416 deaths linked to something that was like the flu...but they are only sure that 411 WERE actually the flu by a confirmed lab test? So where does the 1000 people dying of H1N1 come from then????

 

If you go to the link I gave to the CDC it gives this explanation for the large numbers.

 

"Reports can be based on syndromic, admission or discharge data, or a combination of data elements that could include laboratory-confirmed and influenza-like illness hospitalizations."

 

What I get from that is if someone dies with influenza like symptoms they are being lumped in with H1N1.

 

I don't even trust the smaller number though, because what they count as 'testing positive' is "Laboratory confirmation includes any positive influenza test (rapid influenza tests, RT-PCR, DFA, IFA, or culture), whether or not typing was done." So if someone tests positive for influenza type A but isn't typed to figure out if it's the H1N1 strain, it still counts as a death with a positive test result.

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I don't even trust the smaller number though,

 

There is no reason NOT to trust the # because there IS constant spot checking & PCR analysis & genetic codes filed for the researchers. Everyone is watching for significant mutations as well for the possible appearance of seasonal flu. The sentinel checks are telling us that virtually ALL type A now is coming back as the novel H1N1. There is no need to check every sample to have a good idea of what is going on.

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There is no reason NOT to trust the # because there IS constant spot checking & PCR analysis & genetic codes filed for the researchers. Everyone is watching for significant mutations as well for the possible appearance of seasonal flu. The sentinel checks are telling us that virtually ALL type A now is coming back as the novel H1N1. There is no need to check every sample to have a good idea of what is going on.

 

So what about the article posted last night on here about how 80% of the ILI was NOT flu? If all type A is H1N1, but 80% of ILI is NOT flu, then what? The numbers are just literally all over the place.

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There is no reason NOT to trust the # because there IS constant spot checking & PCR analysis & genetic codes filed for the researchers. Everyone is watching for significant mutations as well for the possible appearance of seasonal flu. The sentinel checks are telling us that virtually ALL type A now is coming back as the novel H1N1. There is no need to check every sample to have a good idea of what is going on.

 

I believe the 411 is probably very close, just not 100% accurate. Even the 411 is a far cry from the 2400 deaths they are attributing when they count in those diagnosed with symptoms rather than tests.

 

I personally believe the numbers are inflated, and that the larger numbers go further in terms of scaring people. The media these days seems like it is more in the entertainment business rather than the news business, and fear sells more than facts.

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Just because the CDC says they use a sophisticated model to track the flu does not mean they have accurate information to begin with. That's what a model is, a representation of what they think is happening. Without conclusive lab testing, no one can assume anything about the flu.

 

Formaldehyde may be present in many products, but that doesn't make it safe. Cancer can also be produced by the body. Does that make it safe?

 

The President has declared a state of emergency regarding H1N1. The media is making it very clear how "virulent" this strain of the flu is, so you better run right out and get immunized.

 

The bottom line is this: there are other ways to protect and treat yourself if you get any illness, other than vaccinations. I vaccinated both my kids according to the normal schedule, but I feel it was not something I casually decided to do because I was told or expected to. They have not and will not be getting any flu vaccinations.

 

My daughter (4) came down with flu-like symptoms on Saturday night. She was completely fine Sunday night. Was it the flu? I don't know, but it looked like it. I got it Sunday night and while I'm not the best I've ever been, I know I can get through my day without being sidelined on the couch. I attribute this to the supplements and daily care taken to remain healthy. That's why we don't need the flu shot. If you want it Perry, go ahead and get it. Just don't try to convince me I need it.

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What form do you use this and how much do you give? I would really like to know.

 

Thanks!

 

We use North American Herb and Spice P73 Superstrength. It's available at any health food store in America. The superstrength is triple strength. It is spicy to some people. I like spicy food so it doesn't bother me. It's like oregano on steroids. I give to myself, my husband, and my kids 7 and 4. They would much rather take it than be sick.

 

As I meantioned in another reply, my 4-year-old came down with the runs, body aches, and a slight fever Saturday night. I gave her her children's probiotic, upped doses of vitamin d3, astragalus and oil of oregano (every hour while she was awake on the ooo.) By Sunday night she was running around like normal. I got the symptoms Sunday night, and while my stomach is bothering me a little and I have slight body aches, it's nothing compared to how I used to get the flu. I'm not sidelined on the couch. Life and school will o on. There is no guarantee that we have the flu without testing, but it certainly feels like it.

 

I believe in using natural means first to prevent and treat illness. Natural cures work, but the FDA does not allow them to claim they "prevent or treat disease". I'm sure part of that is quality control, but I believe part of it is money. That's fine with me. I know they work from personal experience. I don't want the government involved in natural cures. Then they'll have control over the supply and price of them, just like prescribed medications

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I forgot to mention that we take 3 drops of superstrength at a time. I dosed my daughter 3 times before she went to bed Saturday night, and three times Sunday morning. I kept up the other supplements (vitamin d3 and astragalus) but have stopped the ooo. She's fine.

 

Honestly, we very rarely get sick. But, we eat organic, healthy food (mostly), supplement with vitamin d3, and probiotics. I take krill oil, as well. When we do occasionally get sick it never lasts more than a day. It's the oil of oregano. It also comes in capsule form for people who don't like spicy food.

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Just because the CDC says they use a sophisticated model to track the flu does not mean they have accurate information to begin with. That's what a model is, a representation of what they think is happening. Without conclusive lab testing, no one can assume anything about the flu.
They have enough information to make estimates. It is inaccurate to say they can't assume anything about the flu. You don't have to have exact counts to make estimates.

 

Formaldehyde may be present in many products, but that doesn't make it safe. Cancer can also be produced by the body. Does that make it safe?
But just because it's there doesn't mean it's harmful. It's all about the dose. The amount of formaldehyde in the vaccine is minuscule when you compare it to the amount you are bombarded with in the environment.

 

 

 

If you want it Perry, go ahead and get it. Just don't try to convince me I need it.

I don't believe I have EVER tried to convince anyone to get the vaccine. I have said that I will get it, because people have asked me. I want people to make informed decisions based on good information, so when people post something about the vaccine that I believe is misleading or incorrect, I am going to point it out.

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I read an article in our local newspaper this week-end. It said that the majority of persons infected with H1N1 have NO symptoms. :confused: No, I did not read it wrong! I read it over and over and even had my hubby take a look at it. It said symptoms are very mild and most have no symptoms at all. So, how in the world are they tracking that?

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I don't believe I have EVER tried to convince anyone to get the vaccine. I have said that I will get it, because people have asked me. I want people to make informed decisions based on good information, so when people post something about the vaccine that I believe is misleading or incorrect, I am going to point it out.

 

:iagree: The few times Perry has posted about whether or not she will get the vaccine, I am pretty sure *I* have asked her. So yes, please don't think she is trying to sway us all. I really think she is just giving us factual informaiton. I am sl happy she is here because she can interpret and explain the data side of things when they totally make no sense to the rest of us. I have also never felt any "fear mongering" from Perry's posts.

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Okay, this is an alarmist article, but I read it and would love to know what the Obama supporters (since it seems pretty clear that these folks are NOT in that camp) think:

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/027330_fema_pandemic_H1N1.html

 

The emergency thing, especially after having read that article, DOES bother me.

 

Really, though, my biggest problem is that I no longer know who I can trust, iykwIm. On the one hand, it doesn't seem like H1N1 is turning out to be the boogeymonster I expected, on the other it seems like the country is reaching fever pitch in its (our) terror of it. I'm ready for a bomb shelter, if only so I don't have to worry about it at all anymore.

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Okay, this is an alarmist article, but I read it and would love to know what the Obama supporters (since it seems pretty clear that these folks are NOT in that camp) think:

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/027330_fema_pandemic_H1N1.html

 

The emergency thing, especially after having read that article, DOES bother me.

 

Really, though, my biggest problem is that I no longer know who I can trust, iykwIm. On the one hand, it doesn't seem like H1N1 is turning out to be the boogeymonster I expected, on the other it seems like the country is reaching fever pitch in its (our) terror of it. I'm ready for a bomb shelter, if only so I don't have to worry about it at all anymore.

 

Natural News puts a spin on things sometimes. However, I did read in an article somewhere else that this declaration allows hospitals to turn people away now if they are at capacity...and those they turn away will be the ones that have been deemed "expendable." :( Very elderly people, those who are not "expected" to recover (how do we play God here?), and those who are terminally ill (the thought...hey, they are going to die anyway, what does it matter??? Heaven help us!)....

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Okay, this is an alarmist article, but I read it and would love to know what the Obama supporters (since it seems pretty clear that these folks are NOT in that camp) think:

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/027330_fema_pandemic_H1N1.html

 

The emergency thing, especially after having read that article, DOES bother me.

 

Really, though, my biggest problem is that I no longer know who I can trust, iykwIm. On the one hand, it doesn't seem like H1N1 is turning out to be the boogeymonster I expected, on the other it seems like the country is reaching fever pitch in its (our) terror of it. I'm ready for a bomb shelter, if only so I don't have to worry about it at all anymore.

 

While it does bother me that the national emergency was declared and it could impact our rights, I don't really buy into most of what that article says either. The theory about the FEMA camps has been debunked before.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4312850.html

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Natural News puts a spin on things sometimes. However, I did read in an article somewhere else that this declaration allows hospitals to turn people away now if they are at capacity...and those they turn away will be the ones that have been deemed "expendable." :( Very elderly people, those who are not "expected" to recover (how do we play God here?), and those who are terminally ill (the thought...hey, they are going to die anyway, what does it matter??? Heaven help us!)....

 

Medical people have to do triage all the time. When EMT's show up to the scene of a huge accident they have to prioritize who to treat first. When you have limited resources that's what you have to do. If one person is likely to die, but you can save 2 others in the time it takes to TRY to save the 1, than you save the 2. If beds are at capacity in a hospital and you have to choose between a person you can treat, and a person you're merely providing palliative care for, you treat the person you can save and send the other person home or to an alternate facility with some really good drugs.

 

Granted my training was with the military so we focused a lot on MASCAL events and the first thing we had to do in any MASCAL training was run around to all the 'injured' and decide who was the priority. We labeled them with tags for those coming in behind us to round up the guys. Black tag meant 'expectant', that the person was likely so they are last on the list to be treated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage

 

Triage is a necessary part of the medical field and as long as there are adequate resources no one should be left to die.

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Natural News puts a spin on things sometimes. However, I did read in an article somewhere else that this declaration allows hospitals to turn people away now if they are at capacity...and those they turn away will be the ones that have been deemed "expendable." :( Very elderly people, those who are not "expected" to recover (how do we play God here?), and those who are terminally ill (the thought...hey, they are going to die anyway, what does it matter??? Heaven help us!)....

That's what bothers me about the declaration. Are there really all those other things that will go into effect. Does it allow our C. rights to be set aside? And, if as I read, the H1N1 is NOT as bad as was forcast (they made it sound like we'd all be living in bubbles or dead, imo), they WHY make the declaration?

While it does bother me that the national emergency was declared and it could impact our rights, I don't really buy into most of what that article says either. The theory about the FEMA camps has been debunked before.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4312850.html

Thanks! Seems like, anymore, you have to find 50 extreme views and parse them into one non-extreme view, just to get the truth :(

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Medical people have to do triage all the time. When EMT's show up to the scene of a huge accident they have to prioritize who to treat first. When you have limited resources that's what you have to do. If one person is likely to die, but you can save 2 others in the time it takes to TRY to save the 1, than you save the 2. If beds are at capacity in a hospital and you have to choose between a person you can treat, and a person you're merely providing palliative care for, you treat the person you can save and send the other person home or to an alternate facility with some really good drugs.

 

Granted my training was with the military so we focused a lot on MASCAL events and the first thing we had to do in any MASCAL training was run around to all the 'injured' and decide who was the priority. We labeled them with tags for those coming in behind us to round up the guys. Black tag meant 'expectant', that the person was likely so they are last on the list to be treated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage

 

Triage is a necessary part of the medical field and as long as there are adequate resources no one should be left to die.

I think the key, though, is 'turning away.' Ime, hospitals take in the most likely to die from their injuries and turn away (if need be) those with a paper cut. Terminals go first, I thought. Granted, that's very different in war. You want to get the worst injuries treated first, but if someone is injured to where death is immenent, then you want to spare the supplies to give life to those that can recieve it. All the same, I don't think you ever leave someone to die, right? I mean, everyone comes home and all that. From what Treehouse wrote, it seems like people would be left to die.

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I think CBS did their own research and testing and found that 80% of the people thought to have swine flu didn't and the CDCs #s were grossly over exaggerated. Esp since they weren't testing.

 

Not that I could get the vac, anyway. There's none here (practically none) and my Dr isn't so I'd have to search high and low for it.

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I don't believe I have EVER tried to convince anyone to get the vaccine. I have said that I will get it, because people have asked me. I want people to make informed decisions based on good information, so when people post something about the vaccine that I believe is misleading or incorrect, I am going to point it out.

 

 

So am I.

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I think the key, though, is 'turning away.' Ime, hospitals take in the most likely to die from their injuries and turn away (if need be) those with a paper cut. Terminals go first, I thought. Granted, that's very different in war. You want to get the worst injuries treated first, but if someone is injured to where death is immenent, then you want to spare the supplies to give life to those that can recieve it. All the same, I don't think you ever leave someone to die, right? I mean, everyone comes home and all that. From what Treehouse wrote, it seems like people would be left to die.

 

If a hospital doesn't have beds, they don't have beds. They would have to turn people away at that point. Hopefully they could refer or transport them to another hospital, or give them really good drugs to go home with and hope for the best. Also if a hospital is extremely short staffed, maybe out with the flu, it could impact readiness and how many patients they can treat. I'm curious now if the passing of the national emergency will impact how many patients a doctor or nurse is legally allowed to care for at one time? You know, it's probably really selfish, but I'm glad right now that I'm no longer a practicing nurse.

 

But, back to the topic of triage, the wikipedia article explains triage really well. The worst patients don't always get seen first.

 

At its most primitive, those responsible for the removal of the wounded from a battlefield or their care afterwards have always divided victims into three basic categories:

1) Those who are likely to live, regardless of what care they receive;

2) Those who are likely to die, regardless of what care they receive;

3) Those for whom immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome.

 

And while a person on the battlefield wouldn't be 'left to die' in the sense that they're left in a field somewhere they are 'left to die' in CSH area. The expectant patients would all be put in one area and given palliative care when possible (pain medication if supplies are available) but that's about it.

 

Referring back to the wikipedia article again, In advanced triage, doctors may decide that some seriously injured people should not receive advanced care because they are unlikely to survive. Advanced care will be used on patients with less severe injuries. Because treatment is intentionally withheld from patients with certain injuries, advanced triage has ethical implications. It is used to divert scarce resources away from patients with little chance of survival in order to increase the chances of survival of others who are more likely to survive.

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I am a conservative Republican and I don't think the swine flu is a conspiracy, that anyone is setting up camps to herd us in, or anything like that. WHat I do think is that there has been a royal screw-up between the government and the media. The message since Spring has been -this is really serious and we will have a handle on this by fall. Until a few days ago, the government spokespeople kept reiterating that vaccines are available and people who need them can get them or will within a week or so. That was in early to mid October. I live very near the Nation's capital and we don't have it. We have so few that only pregnant women and babies can get it and very few of them. No one else. Not high risk children, not high risk youths, not high risk adults, not regular risk chidren or youths. Our allotment was supposed to be 40K and now they are hoping for 13K. In an area of millions, this is inadequate to put it mildly. The emergency allows the relaxation of some paperwork rules on Medicare patients and allows hospitals to open offsite areas, if needed. They aren't needed at this point.

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If a hospital doesn't have beds, they don't have beds. They would have to turn people away at that point. Hopefully they could refer or transport them to another hospital, or give them really good drugs to go home with and hope for the best. Also if a hospital is extremely short staffed, maybe out with the flu, it could impact readiness and how many patients they can treat. I'm curious now if the passing of the national emergency will impact how many patients a doctor or nurse is legally allowed to care for at one time? You know, it's probably really selfish, but I'm glad right now that I'm no longer a practicing nurse.

 

:iagree: Not a nurse, but a working paramedic in a fairly busy urban/suburban system.

 

But, back to the topic of triage, the wikipedia article explains triage really well. The worst patients don't always get seen first.

 

At its most primitive, those responsible for the removal of the wounded from a battlefield or their care afterwards have always divided victims into three basic categories:

1) Those who are likely to live, regardless of what care they receive;

2) Those who are likely to die, regardless of what care they receive;

3) Those for whom immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome.

 

And while a person on the battlefield wouldn't be 'left to die' in the sense that they're left in a field somewhere they are 'left to die' in CSH area. The expectant patients would all be put in one area and given palliative care when possible (pain medication if supplies are available) but that's about it.

 

Referring back to the wikipedia article again, In advanced triage, doctors may decide that some seriously injured people should not receive advanced care because they are unlikely to survive. Advanced care will be used on patients with less severe injuries. Because treatment is intentionally withheld from patients with certain injuries, advanced triage has ethical implications. It is used to divert scarce resources away from patients with little chance of survival in order to increase the chances of survival of others who are more likely to survive.

 

I've been on MCI's and had to black tag people who were technically still alive. Like it or not, the START method of triage works really well and in a true epidemic or pandemic that's more than likely the method ER's will have to use. ICU's fill up very quickly and beds and vents are very limited in most parts of the country. In my area there are around 15 hospitals in a two county area (high population in both counties). Each of those hospitals has a limited number of resources (including personnel). When those resources are used up, they're used up and there is no getting more.

 

Triage is all about providing the most good to the greater number of people. Unfortunately, that means decisions have to be made about who to treat. It's not pleasant (and it marks your soul in a way), but it's reality. That's also why hospitals (especially ER's) have to meet very specific criteria before instituting that type of triage. It won't (or shouldn't) happen just willy-nilly.

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I think CBS did their own research and testing and found that 80% of the people thought to have swine flu didn't and the CDCs #s were grossly over exaggerated. Esp since they weren't testing.

 

I'm inclined to believe that one of the (apparently many) reasons they are not testing because the current test isn't accurate, meaning they would need to develop a test to identify just this particular strain of H1N1. But they haven't said as much.

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I'm inclined to believe that one of the (apparently many) reasons they are not testing because the current test isn't accurate, meaning they would need to develop a test to identify just this particular strain of H1N1. But they haven't said as much.

 

There are several tests that can do this, but they're expensive, time consuming, require resources only available to certain labs, and require specialized training. The problem is with the rapid tests done in doctors offices. If the prevalence of illness is high, and the patient has symptoms, a negative test is likely to be a false negative. However, a positive test is likely to be a true positive. So they aren't completely useless.

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The problem is with the rapid tests done in doctors offices. If the prevalence of illness is high, and the patient has symptoms, a negative test is likely to be a false negative. However, a positive test is likely to be a true positive.

 

Those are the tests I was talking about.

 

And thank you very much for taking the time to share your wealth of information - I am really learning a lot from these threads that I probably would not have understood before.:)

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Medical people have to do triage all the time. When EMT's show up to the scene of a huge accident they have to prioritize who to treat first. When you have limited resources that's what you have to do. If one person is likely to die, but you can save 2 others in the time it takes to TRY to save the 1, than you save the 2. If beds are at capacity in a hospital and you have to choose between a person you can treat, and a person you're merely providing palliative care for, you treat the person you can save and send the other person home or to an alternate facility with some really good drugs.

 

Granted my training was with the military so we focused a lot on MASCAL events and the first thing we had to do in any MASCAL training was run around to all the 'injured' and decide who was the priority. We labeled them with tags for those coming in behind us to round up the guys. Black tag meant 'expectant', that the person was likely so they are last on the list to be treated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage

 

Triage is a necessary part of the medical field and as long as there are adequate resources no one should be left to die.

 

Exactly. Triage came to mind immediately. There is nothing new here.

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I think CBS did their own research and testing and found that 80% of the people thought to have swine flu didn't and the CDCs #s were grossly over exaggerated. Esp since they weren't testing.

 

 

That was done in July, when you wouldn't expect ANY flu. I think the results would look different if they did it again now that flu season has started. It is true that overall, most cases of ILI (influenza-like-illness) are caused by things other than flu. But as flu prevalence increases, the fraction of ILI cases due to flu goes up.

 

Example: (I'm making these numbers up; this is just meant as illustration)

 

Let's say that clinic A and clinic B, located in 2 different communities, tests everyone who comes through the door with ILI (CDC ILI surveillance case definition: fever (≥100ºF [≥37.8ºC]), plus cough, sore throat, or both in the absence of another known cause of illness).

 

In July, let's say each clinic sees 100 cases of ILI based on the above definition. In a normal year, almost none of those (~<5%) will be caused by influenza. The vast majority (~95%) will be caused by something else: strep, adenovirus, rhinovirus, etc.

 

 

In December, they will have lots more ILI, obviously. In community A, there is an influenza epidemic. If they test all ILI cases, they are likely to see the majority (70-80%+?) of ILI caused by influenza, with the rest from other causes.

 

Community B is not having an epidemic of inluenza yet. Of 1000 cases of ILI there, it's more likely that they will have very few cases due to influenza, with the majority caused by adenovirus, RSV, rhinovirus, etc.

 

Overall, if you look at ILI through the whole year, the majority isn't influenza. If you look at it during an outbreak, the majority WILL be influenza.

 

IOW, if you have a fever and sore throat and there is a flu epidemic in your community, you probably have flu. If you have those symptoms and there is very little flu in the community, you probably have one of the other numerous respiratory viruses, or strep.

 

So the fraction of ILI caused by influenza depends quite a bit on when you test, and the prevalence of the disease in the community. It's not static, and the results they got in July aren't relevant now.

 

I'm also wondering how many of those influenza negative tests are true negatives. It appears the test they use for surveillance is very good, and the test shouldn't have too many false negatives, but improper collection of specimens is always an issue. People don't always do an adequate job of swabbing, especially with an uncooperative wriggling child, and if there is a lot of mucous in there it can be hard to get a good sample. I've never seen any data on this, but it's something to consider.

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I forgot to mention that we take 3 drops of superstrength at a time. I dosed my daughter 3 times before she went to bed Saturday night, and three times Sunday morning. I kept up the other supplements (vitamin d3 and astragalus) but have stopped the ooo. She's fine.

 

Honestly, we very rarely get sick. But, we eat organic, healthy food (mostly), supplement with vitamin d3, and probiotics. I take krill oil, as well. When we do occasionally get sick it never lasts more than a day. It's the oil of oregano. It also comes in capsule form for people who don't like spicy food.

 

Thanks so much for responding! I see that you use the liquid and not the gel capsules. Do you recommend this because it is more versatile or because the dose is smaller and can be more controlled for a child? The capsules are over three times the strength of two drops (180 milligrams to 50 milligrams). Also, I wonder about the safety of giving a child the capsules as often as you give the liquid during a flu situation - do you think that would be possible? I think I am tending towards the liquid, but would love the ease of a capsule! :D How did you find out your information on OO? I would love to read more about it and really appreciate your help! :001_smile:

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Newsmedia inflation of flu-fears would have a way to go if they were serious about creating panic. The # of individual pediatric deaths reported since April 09 in the news can easily be looked up using Lexis-Nexis. This reportable# (195) appears to be about 2x the official CDC number (~100) and was 3x that of CDC a few days ago (76).

 

This same reportable # is also something like 4x of previous years' total pediatric flu deaths (~53). Even CDC's # is 2x previous year total ped flu deaths. And it's not even the start of flu season yet.

 

If this doesn't give a parent pause, I don't know what would. It is a news story in itself. These are unbelievably weird statistics, and there are few ways you can slice it up such that it doesn't matter. If there is such an analysis, please pass it onto me. I would love to feel that the # of ped deaths due to H1N1 has been inflated to sell newspapers or vaccines.

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Newsmedia inflation of flu-fears would have a way to go if they were serious about creating panic. The # of individual pediatric deaths reported since April 09 in the news can easily be looked up using Lexis-Nexis. This reportable# (195) appears to be about 2x the official CDC number (~100) and was 3x that of CDC a few days ago (76).

 

This same reportable # is also something like 4x of previous years' total pediatric flu deaths (~53). Even CDC's # is 2x previous year total ped flu deaths. And it's not even the start of flu season yet.

 

If this doesn't give a parent pause, I don't know what would. It is a news story in itself. These are unbelievably weird statistics, and there are few ways you can slice it up such that it doesn't matter. If there is such an analysis, please pass it onto me. I would love to feel that the # of ped deaths due to H1N1 has been inflated to sell newspapers or vaccines.

 

I am not disagreeing with you. I don't think that "pediatric deaths" is the thing that many of us feel is fear mongering. It is the statistical data that is mis-reported or misleading, saying we will have vaccine and implying that without it, we could surely die...but then falling VERY short of having enough for everyone. Or the fact that many can't take flu vaccines - no alternative is being offered really. These type things lead to panic.

 

The CDC is posting confirmed cases for pediatric deaths. Many cases in the newspaper are unconfirmed or suspected.

 

The other point I want to make is that flu seasons aren't always exactly the same in the dates they run to a from. If you think about it, there are plenty of years that you hear, "late start to flu season" or even "early start to flu season." H1N1 hung around all summer and did just what was expected - spread like wildfire when kids went back to school. The rest, though, is unknown. It very well could hit us for a few mos. and then lose steam once a good portion of us have been infected and then you will see cases decline and it be "over." It may have BEEN our seasonal flu and then again, it may just be the first round of what could be a devistating flu season. No one...not a model, not a person can predict which way it will go right now. Things are very uncertain right now - and it could really go either way.

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this is not to take away rights. the main thing it does is give hospitals options to provide care in alternate methods and still receive reimbursement (medicare/medicaid).

 

For instance: Without the declaration if a hospital wants to set up a flu clinic off site, no reimbursement. With the declaration, if necessary, schools, churches, or other buildings can be turned into triage centers or flu clinics and hospitals can be reimbursed.

 

Some hospitals are doing drive-through triage for those patients with flu-like-illness. Makes sense to me because then people can stay in their cars and not infect the entire hospital or be infected by the entire hospital. Without the declaration, any treatment beyond 200 yards from the hospital is not reimbursed (and remember as go medicare/medicaid reimbursements, so goes insurance reimbursements). With the declaration, one hospital I work at that is having people drive into the ambulance bay can now have a nurse go out into the parking lot. No need to measure to see if the hospital will get reimbursed.

 

One more example. My mother is a nurse. One of her patients has cancer. Last week this patient needed her oral chemo drug that is usually given to her in the outpatient dept of the hospital. The cancer patient did not want to come to the hospital because it is full (yes, literally full) of flu patients. She was afraid that in her immunocompromised state, she would get sick from walking into the outpatient department. My mother told her that if she brought the drug to the patient's home, Medicare would not pay for it and the patient would have to pay $1,000. In this instance, the rules were bent and the patient called from her cell phone in the parking lot and the drug was taken out to her in her car. The Emergency Declaration would allow my mom to take the drug to the patient and the hospital would get reimbursed.

 

As far as the less information - let me tell you, it is a huge PITA to admit someone to the hospital. I usually tell patients, "Now I'm going to ask you a hundred questions that you've already answered, but I have to ask them again to get your answers into the computer." Depending on hospital and system (varioius computer systems are easier/faster) it takes anywhere from 30 - 45 minutes PER ADMISSION. If hospitals are overwhelmed with flu victims, it would be nice to get them treatment without going through that process. Believe me, some of the questions have no bearing on how I treat the patient. How do I know? Because I've treated plenty of nonresponsive patients with no family and the admission history does not get completed until hours or days later.

 

Sitting snug and secure in our homes, it is hard to imagine that there are reasons for the declaration, and easy to call it premature. Personally, I'm glad these measures are in place BEFORE we need them.

 

Others have addressed the triage issue so I won't comment to that other than to say much of what is being called "extreme" and shouted about is SOP in the healthcare industry already.

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Thanks so much for responding! I see that you use the liquid and not the gel capsules. Do you recommend this because it is more versatile or because the dose is smaller and can be more controlled for a child? The capsules are over three times the strength of two drops (180 milligrams to 50 milligrams). Also, I wonder about the safety of giving a child the capsules as often as you give the liquid during a flu situation - do you think that would be possible? I think I am tending towards the liquid, but would love the ease of a capsule! :D How did you find out your information on OO? I would love to read more about it and really appreciate your help! :001_smile:

 

I feel that the liquid is more immediately available to the bloodstream by taking it under the tongue. I'm sure some does end up in the stomach, but under the tongue it is immediately entered into the blood. The capsules may be difficult for a child to swallow. That's another reason I use the liquid. I also like simplicity (one form for all of us.) Check the P73 website for more dosage information as I haven't ever used the capsules and I'm not sure what the manufacturer recommends.

 

I found out about oil of oregano about two years ago. I have a history of chronic bladder infections (goes back about 20 years) and I was on a preventative antibiotic for 15 years. That stopped working. My symptoms had changed from the regular e-coli infections that are typical. I saw several urologists, including the chair of the department at Northwestern in Chicago, and no one could find a problem. Regular urinalyses test for fast growing bacteria, such as e-coli, that show they are growing. I never came back with any bacterial counts. So, I overnighted a urine sample to the only lab in the US that does a broth culture. See, lab techs sometimes throw out certain bacteria that are viewed as contamination of the sample. A broth culture reports everything that comes back, including counts. My broth culture came back positive for one type of bacteria: staph coagulase negative, which is usually seen on the skin and is considered a contaminant in urine. I did research on the internet and learned oil of oregano is very good for treating staph infections. I've been taking it for two years this February, and I haven't had one bladder problem since. Coincidence? Possibly. But I tend to think the regular urine test just didn't fit my problem. I also think there may be bacteria that haven't been identified yet and that's the problem for many of the women suffering from interstitial cystitis. But that's a whole other story.

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this is not to take away rights.

 

The government now has the right to force vaccinations and medications and take us away and charge us if we refuse...how is that not taking away rights? They can't do it without fear manipulation. Problem, reaction, solution.

 

Like I said before, there is less chances of forced vaccinations this year if more than half of the population willingly takes the shot. This is a reminder for non-vaxers to not try to convince pro-vaxers to not get the vax.

 

In July, 2008, 39 states passed the MSEHPA the "Model State Emergency Health Powers Act" following the lobbying and extensive pressure of the Bush admin (this goes way beyond just Obama). Under this law, the federal and state governments now have the right to force examinations of individual citizens, isolate the ill, quarantine in specially designed encampments anybody subjectively deemed to have been exposed or who refuses vaccination, and allows the state to confiscate private property.

 

 

Model State Emergency Health Powers Act:

http://www.publichealthlaw.net/MSEHPA/MSEHPA2.pdf

 

ARTICLE VI

 

SPECIAL POWERS DURING A STATE OF PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY: PROTECTION OF PERSONS

 

Section 602 © The public health authority may isolate or quarantine, pursuant to Section 604, any person whose refusal of medical examination or testing results in uncertainty regarding whether he or she has been exposed to or is infected with a contagious or possibly contagious disease or otherwise poses a danger to public health.

 

Section 603 (a)(3) To prevent the spread of contagious or possibly contagious disease the public health authority may isolate or quarantine, pursuant to Section 604, persons who are unable or unwilling for reasons of health, religion, or conscience to undergo vaccination pursuant to this Section.

 

Section 604 Isolation and quarantine

 

(a) Authorization. During the public health emergency, the public health authority may isolate...or quarantine...an individual or groups of individuals. This includes individuals or groups who have not been vaccinated, treated, tested, or examined pursuant to Section 602 and 603. The public health authority may also establish and maintain places of isolation and quarantine, and set rules and make orders. Failure to obey these rules, orders, or provisions shall constitute a misdemeanor.

Edited by Devotional Soul
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The government now has the right to force vaccinations and medications and take us away and charge us if we refuse...how is that not taking away rights? They can't do it without fear manipulation. Problem, reaction, solution.

 

Like I said before, there is less chances of forced vaccinations this year if more than half of the population willingly takes the shot. This is a reminder for non-vaxers to not try to convince pro-vaxers to not get the vax.

 

In July, 2008, 39 states passed the MSEHPA the "Model State Emergency Health Powers Act" following the lobbying and extensive pressure of the Bush admin (this goes way beyond just Obama). Under this law, the federal and state governments now have the right to force examinations of individual citizens, isolate the ill, quarantine in specially designed encampments anybody subjectively deemed to have been exposed or who refuses vaccination, and allows the state to confiscate private property.

 

 

Model State Emergency Health Powers Act:

http://www.publichealthlaw.net/MSEHPA/MSEHPA2.pdf

 

ARTICLE VI

 

SPECIAL POWERS DURING A STATE OF PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY: PROTECTION OF PERSONS

 

Section 602 © The public health authority may isolate or quarantine, pursuant to Section 604, any person whose refusal of medical examination or testing results in uncertainty regarding whether he or she has been exposed to or is infected with a contagious or possibly contagious disease or otherwise poses a danger to public health.

 

Section 603 (a)(3) To prevent the spread of contagious or possibly contagious disease the public health authority may isolate or quarantine, pursuant to Section 604, persons who are unable or unwilling for reasons of health, religion, or conscience to undergo vaccination pursuant to this Section.

 

Section 604 Isolation and quarantine

 

(a) Authorization. During the public health emergency, the public health authority may isolate...or quarantine...an individual or groups of individuals. This includes individuals or groups who have not been vaccinated, treated, tested, or examined pursuant to Section 602 and 603. The public health authority may also establish and maintain places of isolation and quarantine, and set rules and make orders. Failure to obey these rules, orders, or provisions shall constitute a misdemeanor.

 

Well, if its any consolation to you, the CDC has stated that it is too late to try to contain the H1N1 by vaccination or quarantine.

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I feel that the liquid is more immediately available to the bloodstream by taking it under the tongue. I'm sure some does end up in the stomach, but under the tongue it is immediately entered into the blood. The capsules may be difficult for a child to swallow. That's another reason I use the liquid. I also like simplicity (one form for all of us.) Check the P73 website for more dosage information as I haven't ever used the capsules and I'm not sure what the manufacturer recommends.

 

I found out about oil of oregano about two years ago. I have a history of chronic bladder infections (goes back about 20 years) and I was on a preventative antibiotic for 15 years. That stopped working. My symptoms had changed from the regular e-coli infections that are typical. I saw several urologists, including the chair of the department at Northwestern in Chicago, and no one could find a problem. Regular urinalyses test for fast growing bacteria, such as e-coli, that show they are growing. I never came back with any bacterial counts. So, I overnighted a urine sample to the only lab in the US that does a broth culture. See, lab techs sometimes throw out certain bacteria that are viewed as contamination of the sample. A broth culture reports everything that comes back, including counts. My broth culture came back positive for one type of bacteria: staph coagulase negative, which is usually seen on the skin and is considered a contaminant in urine. I did research on the internet and learned oil of oregano is very good for treating staph infections. I've been taking it for two years this February, and I haven't had one bladder problem since. Coincidence? Possibly. But I tend to think the regular urine test just didn't fit my problem. I also think there may be bacteria that haven't been identified yet and that's the problem for many of the women suffering from interstitial cystitis. But that's a whole other story.

 

Wow! I love stories like that. What a blessing. I really appreciate your help. I plan to buy the oil in liquid form. I found it online at Vitacost for $41.54 for 1 fl. ounce. Have you found it for a better price?

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:confused: Then WHY exactly are we all urged to get the vaccine?:confused:

So YOU don't get it (I think :p). IOW, there's no point in forced vaccinations, it's too late for that, but on an individual level, you can still keep yourself from getting it...

 

At least, that's what I think they meant ;)

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So YOU don't get it (I think :p). IOW, there's no point in forced vaccinations, it's too late for that, but on an individual level, you can still keep yourself from getting it...

 

At least, that's what I think they meant ;)

 

Ahhh...it just sucks that they aren't really saying much more than to vaccinate. What about all of those who CAN'T? :(

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:confused: Then WHY exactly are we all urged to get the vaccine?:confused:

 

Think about it. Lots of over exaggeration of cases and deaths and not much advice except to get the vax and tamiflu. For the makers of the vax and tamiflu, it is for their profit. There is evidence that this was made in their lab, and they have even admitted to sending vaccines to Africa with AIDS in them.

 

For the people who think that the world is overpopulated, they want it to mutate to a vax-resistant strain that is much more dangerous than the flu.

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Ahhh...it just sucks that they aren't really saying much more than to vaccinate. What about all of those who CAN'T? :(

We can, but won't ;)

 

I think we might've already had this, but we didn't go to the doctor's so it's unconfirmed. For us, we're just being slightly more careful, I'm willing to be rude :p if I see someone sick and flat out bail on them.

 

For folks that can't and aren't generally healthy, then I'd say avoid public.

Think about it. Lots of over exaggeration of cases and deaths and not much advice except to get the vax and tamiflu. For the makers of the vax and tamiflu, it is for their profit. There is evidence that this was made in their lab, and they have even admitted to sending vaccines to Africa with AIDS in them.

 

For the people who think that the world is overpopulated, they want it to mutate to a vax-resistant strain that is much more dangerous than the flu.

That is a scary thought. It's also one reason I just want to drop out of life all together. It's just too hard to decifer who's telling the truth. I've read about bad vaccines, ones that carried diseases, but I also know that medical people, in general, are in their business to help people.

 

ETA, so no one thinks I'm gonna jump or anything :p I meant 'drop out of life' more in a 'go hide under a rock' sort of way.

Edited by lionfamily1999
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Think about it. Lots of over exaggeration of cases and deaths and not much advice except to get the vax and tamiflu. For the makers of the vax and tamiflu, it is for their profit. There is evidence that this was made in their lab, and they have even admitted to sending vaccines to Africa with AIDS in them.

 

For the people who think that the world is overpopulated, they want it to mutate to a vax-resistant strain that is much more dangerous than the flu.

You do realize that the doses of H1N1 vaccine are coming directly from the CDC, not a pharma company right? And CDC has not reccommended Tamiflu?

 

There are many, many conspiracy theories that are mutating and spreading faster than wildfire thanks to the internet. Please don't add to it with half-truths.

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Think about it. Lots of over exaggeration of cases and deaths and not much advice except to get the vax and tamiflu. I don't agree that there is exaggeration. The CDC is reporting the information they have. As far as I can tell, the confusion comes from people blogging and writing articles who don't really understand what they are talking about.

 

For the makers of the vax and tamiflu, it is for their profit. There is evidence that this was made in their lab, and they have even admitted to sending vaccines to Africa with AIDS in them.

 

Could you please link the evidence that it came from a lab? It could happen; it seems to have happened in 1977, although which lab it came from has never been determined. But there is no evidence AFAIK, just a lot of empty speculation.

 

For the people who think that the world is overpopulated, they want it to mutate to a vax-resistant strain that is much more dangerous than the flu.

What is a vax-resistant strain? You can make a vaccine to any flu strain. Some work better than others, but there is no such thing as a vaccine resistant strain. And if it mutates, what does it become, if not flu? It can't turn into something else. And so what if people hope it mutates. The virus doesn't exactly care what people want.

x Edited by Perry
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You do realize that the doses of H1N1 vaccine are coming directly from the CDC, not a pharma company right? And CDC has not reccommended Tamiflu?

 

 

 

I saw a news report that listed at least 5 different drug companies that are making the H1N1 vaccine. In a quick search, I found a news report about Meriden Co making them.

 

(I have to go make dinner, but I will look for more later...)

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You do realize that the doses of H1N1 vaccine are coming directly from the CDC, not a pharma company right?
The CDC is not in the drug manufacturing business. All of the H1N1 vax are coming from the pharma industry.

 

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccines Composition and Lot Release

 

The four manufacturers will make the Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines using the established manufacturing processes for their seasonal influenza vaccines. FDA approved these vaccines as a strain change to each manufacturer’s seasonal influenza vaccine. There is considerable experience with seasonal influenza vaccine development and production and influenza vaccines produced by this technology have a long and successful track record of safety and effectiveness in the United States. The Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines will undergo the usual testing and lot release procedures that are in place for seasonal influenza vaccines.

 

Lot release information will be updated weekly. Last update: 10/21/2009.

Manufacturer, Total Number of Lots Released by FDA

CSL Limited , 5

MedImmune LLC, 26

Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Limited, 11

Sanofi Pasteur, Inc., 28

 

-

Approved Vaccines

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine (CSL Limited)

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine (MedImmune LLC)

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine (Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Limited)

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine (Sanofi Pasteur, Inc.)

 

(The above can be found at http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/default.htm )

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They are not widely reporting the adverse reactions from the vaccine. I went searching yesterday and found that trials in other countries had experienced deaths that were thought to be linked to the vaccine. A man in (some country over seas) died within 12 hours of having the H1N1 vaccine. This is the sort of thing I am "waiting" on (meanestmominthemidwest asked yesterday in another thread) - I am waiting to see if the deaths associated with the vaccine start climbing rapidly or even surpass that of the illness itself.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#H1N1_vaccine

 

Baxter International Inc. (NYSE: BAX), is an American health care company with headquarters in Deerfield, Illinois. The company primarily focuses on products to treat hemophilia, kidney disease, immune disorders and other chronic and acute medical conditions. The company claims to have world-wide sales of $12.3 billion, across three manufacturing divisions (BioScience, producing blood plasma proteins; Medication Delivery producing intravenous therapy products and liquids; and Renal producing equipment for dialysis and the treatment of kidney disorders).[2] The company is also involved in the production of a vaccine for the H1N1 influenza.

 

The company was involved in several controversies. In 2001, malfunctioning dialysis machines resulted in several deaths; in 2008 the company supplied contaminated heparin; in 2009 lethal H5N1 avian flu virus was delivered to laboratories across Europe mixed with seasonal influenza vaccines; also, the company was charged with excessive billing of Kentucky Medicaid.

 

H1N1 vaccine

 

In June 2009, Baxter International announced it expected to have the first commercial vaccine for the H1N1 ("swine flu") influenza as early as July of the same year. The company has been one of several working with the World Health Organization and United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on the vaccine, and uses a cell-based rather than egg-based technology that allows a shorter production time.[11]

 

2009 avian flu contamination

In early 2009 supplies of contaminated vaccine material with Avian flu virus (Influenza A virus subtype H5N1) provided by Baxter International were sent to a series of European laboratories[17][18]. The deadly H5N1 strain was mixed with the less harmful H3N2 subtype of the seasonal flu virus, and was detected after it killed test animals in a lab in the Czech Republic. Though the serious consequences were avoided by the lab in the Czech Republic,[19] Baxter claimed the failed controls over the distribution of the virus were 'stringent' and there was 'little chance' of the lethal virus harming humans, apart from its deadly effect.[20]

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It seems most news reports on this are no longer on the internet, seriously, the links are 'no longer available', but I had saved info about it happening February 9, most just say early February, this article gave 'update 2' on Feb. 24.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I

 

Baxter Sent Bird Flu Virus to European Labs by Error (Update2)

 

Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Baxter International Inc. in Austria unintentionally contaminated samples with the bird flu virus that were used in laboratories in three neighboring countries, raising concern about the potential spread of the deadly disease.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/Swine_flu/article6725830.ece

 

Swine flu 'patient zero' found in Mexico

 

The world's first known swine flu victim was a six-month-old baby girl in northern Mexico who had no known contact with pig farms, the head of a laboratory studying the virus said on Thursday.

 

"It's a six-month-old baby girl from San Luis Potosi who is alive" said Celia Alpuche of the Institute of Epidemiological Diagnosis and Reference (INDRE) in Mexico City.

 

The little girl first showed symptoms of the new strain of the influenza A(H1N1) virus on February 24, she said.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

While Baxter was shipping H5N1 to various labs in European countries, the first Patient Zero of H1N1 comes out of Mexico. Nearly the same time....

 

Baxter H5N1 Lab Release: February 6, 2009

 

First H1N1 Swine Flu case: February 24, 2009

 

18 days apart.

 

 

 

On a lighter note:

 

Edited by Devotional Soul
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