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Tried to catch up on all the comments but it's not going to happen, so I guess I'll try the 60 second reply:

 

(start out serious): Legalism is indeed worse than indiscretion. (rapidly digress into sarcasm): Let's just walk around naked, since even if we cover every inch our bodies, there will be men who lust after us. There's no way we can not cause others to stumble, so that portion of Scripture which tells us to be sensitive to other people's weaknesses is just there for the rare spirit led moment, not every day living. And verses about modesty (as well as it being modeled throughout the Bible) really have no practical application today because of cultural irrelevance and the danger of any "effort" (actual acts of discerning and choosing) becoming legalism. (suddenly break out into song): Shake your booty, yeah, awhaw, I like it. (and finally, close with Shakespeare): Thou (of bare breast) doth protest.

 

:p

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I beg you to give me one reason why showing cleavage would be a positive? Yes, Really.

 

I think they are attractive. I also like my eyes, my silver hair and my small feet. I dress to accentuate these features, because seeing myself thus dressed gives me confidence.

 

Am I defined by my boobs? No, and no-one meeting me would think so - I am the same personality type as Hillary Clinton, if that helps to give you a picture. There's nothing kittenish about me. But I like dressing that way.

 

Laura

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I'm not here to find your compassion, or give you a trace of grace. These are my thoughts and only my thoughts.

Obviously.

If this bothers you, you need to look a little deeper at the real reasons.

Judging by the tone, it sounds like the real reason is that you like to show them, so anyone who disagrees with you on the subject must surely believe in female genital mutilation...that is as ridiculous as calling you a hussy for having cleavage. Both are ridiculous ended statements.

 

The POINT was, there are those that show cleavage due to inability to cover them or due to sensory issues (apparently, if they are equating covering cleavage with turtlenecks...either sensory issues or they are being as equally extreme in their statement, or extremely short torsoed). However, the general rule of the workplace, churches, and other places call for the common decency of showing as little cleavage as possible (note, I did not say covered in a burka).

 

I AM calling for grace from both sides.

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I have no idea, but I can tell anyone who does that I am not nearly as impressed with their booKs as they seem to be. If people are showing them because they think they're so wonderful and they just want to share with the whole world, please take note: we really don't want to see them. They're private body parts; please keep them that way :)

 

Now, I have a daughter who is well-endowed. My sister was also VERY well-endowed. They both manage to find shirts that cover what needs to be covered -- and none of their shirts are wrapped around their necks.

 

Let the flames begin....I'm just trying to keep it real and honest.

 

Both my SIL's are/were well endowed and both had breast reductions. I NEVER saw them wear anything that showed cleavage. They are NOT heavy (rather thin actually- size 6 on bottom) and have no dc. They chose breast reduction because of the strain on their backs - not for cosmetic reasons (or so I'm told).

 

My point is you can find clothes to fit your body/type but it takes work to find clothes that fit properly. Most people never want to spend the time to find clothes that fit right. It's HARD work for some of us! :tongue_smilie:

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Oh, no!!! We've descended into mud slinging!!!!! (Slinging. Get it?) STOP. Cleavage is not worth this. At least my fleavage is not worth this.

 

There are more important issues to debate; like the perennial "Which spelling program is best for my natural speller?" OR "I want to teach Singapore Math, but I feel so inadequate. Any suggestion from the hive?" OR "Why does the Comedy Channel show so many episodes of Futurama? Does anyone watch Futurama?"

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For me, yes, you would be.

 

The problem (one of them) with this thread is that it assumes each woman who does not agree with a particular style of conservative feels, acts and is motivated by the same situations.

 

More than one posters assumes that not only do I show it to be noticed, I get upset when I *am* noticed.

 

More than one poster, like the quote, assumes I do not think of myself as worthy beyond my books and that I do not have a vocabulary.

 

Where is the logic and critical thinking? Truly, you can't make character, intelligent, spiritual or esteem assumptions about women who show cleavage OR those who post against it.

 

I am clearly well spoken, have worth that goes beyond my boobs. I don't mind a glance from another man or a comment on my looks.

 

Are we really going to reduce moms here (or elsewhere) to stupid, vain, vapid whores simply because they dress provocatively and you don't? Really?

 

I guess I don't understand how women can be comfortable wearing that type of clothing that you have to worry about your bosom falling out.

 

We all have different ideas about what is acceptable and what looks good but we do have, as a society, to consider other people when we do the things we do in public view.... at the grocery store and at church.... :lol:

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One local post-secondary school I know of has a spoken rule, "no butt cracks, no boob cracks, both are inappropriate" and the majority of the women teachers are well endowed...so I figure if they are able to find a way to abide by it, then so are the students. And it's a secular school, no religion playing the field.

 

 

No cracks! :D

 

 

I don't like seeing butt cracks either! YUCK! :ack2: :ack2:

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DH: What you doing, honey?

Me: Reading an 18 page thread.

DH: What about?

Me: Cleavage.

DH: Cleavage? You mean rocks, earth science?

Me: No, I mean cleavage, as in breasts.

DH: Isn't that a homeschooling board? With homeschooling moms?

Me: Yes.

DH: Wow! (pause) I'll be happy to discuss cleavage with you if you feel a need to discuss it.

Me: Thanks sweetie. I'll take you up on it later.

 

an almost verbatim conversation I just had with hubby. I think he likes this board more now.

 

Janet

 

Boy, see what a trip to my local grocery store has started! :tongue_smilie:

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No cracks! :D

 

 

I don't like seeing butt cracks either! YUCK! :ack2: :ack2:

 

I heard some conservative muslims were appalled at the toe cracks seen when their women were wearing sandals! :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol:

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If my husband and I had that conversation, it surely would have ended with hubby questioning my credentials. OR me accusing him of thinking about my lack of credentials.

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I heard some conservative muslims were appalled at the toe cracks seen when their women were wearing sandals! :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol:

 

I DO show my TOE CRACKS! :lol:

 

So much for the NO cracks rule. :tongue_smilie:

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Tried to catch up on all the comments but it's not going to happen, so I guess I'll try the 60 second reply:

 

(start out serious): Legalism is indeed worse than indiscretion. (rapidly digress into sarcasm): Let's just walk around naked, since even if we cover every inch our bodies, there will be men who lust after us. There's no way we can not cause others to stumble, so that portion of Scripture which tells us to be sensitive to other people's weaknesses is just there for the rare spirit led moment, not every day living. And verses about modesty (as well as it being modeled throughout the Bible) really have no practical application today because of cultural irrelevance and the danger of any "effort" (actual acts of discerning and choosing) becoming legalism. (suddenly break out into song): Shake your booty, yeah, awhaw, I like it. (and finally, close with Shakespeare): Thou (of bare breast) doth protest.

 

:p

I have no idea what the point was. I do agree that naked is less attractive than cleavage. ;) Legalism is definitely worse than indiscretion. That I can agree with.

 

I AM calling for grace from both sides.
Bravo!

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I have absolutely no expectation that non-Christians would behave as Christians are supposed to. I don't expect them to adhere to scriptural directives about anything at all. I don't worry about what other people are doing, or about whether they're arousing Christian men. I'm not responsible for that, nor am I the morality police. I worry about what I'M doing. I do believe men have a responsibility to control their thought lives, but I also believe that it's cruel to push the envelope with them. I mean, if you have a friend who's tempted to steal, are you going to leave cash lying around? Probably not. To me, it's the same principle. I guess I prefer to "err on the side of caution". And, to me, there really is no real REASON to flaunt the boobies, so wearing modest tops is no real issue for me.

 

Michelle, I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I dress modestly for a few reasons; I dress the way I feel the Lord convcting me to. I dress the way my husband is comfortable with. And I dress the way I am comfortable with. For me, that means no cleavage at all. Why would I show off my cleavage to anyone but my husband?

 

To be quite honest, I frequently think, when seeing a woman with it 'all hanging out' while out with her husband 'isn't her husband embarrassed for all the other men to be staring at his wife that way?' I mean, I honestly don't get it. WHY would a husband want his wife to be s*xually alluring to other men?

 

Just my opinion.

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I'm not here to find your compassion, or give you a trace of grace. These are my thoughts and only my thoughts. If this bothers you, you need to look a little deeper at the real reasons. By the way, Grace, is not something I offer myself to give, but, something I thought appropriate to name a beautiful blessing. Go figure.

FOREVERGRACE

 

Why not? I truly don't understand why you wouldn't want to offer even a trace of grace. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Guess I'm not figuring.

 

Janet

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Legalism is definitely worse than indiscretion.

 

I agree. I don't think we need 'rules' for dressing modestly. But I also think that if you are a Christian woman, you should be very honest with yourself about why you dress as you do. I think if you are a Christian woman, and you have love for your Christian brothers, that should influence how you dress. And I think if you are a Christian woman with a Christian husband, his input and frank advice on how women's appearances affect men can be invaluable.

 

I don't go for legalism. I *DO go for loving others more than myself.

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I agree. I don't think we need 'rules' for dressing modestly. But I also think that if you are a Christian woman, you should be very honest with yourself about why you dress as you do. I think if you are a Christian woman, and you have love for your Christian brothers, that should influence how you dress. And I think if you are a Christian woman with a Christian husband, his input and frank advice on how women's appearances affect men can be invaluable.

 

I don't go for legalism. I *DO go for loving others more than myself.

Nicely stated. That goes for loving others enough to dress modestly and loving others enough to keep yourself from judging them.

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But even if you have to go with a long-lined bra, I would do that before I showed my bra straps. BUT, again, I admit that it is *my* problem, it's not your problem. Heck, the woman sitting in front of me at church this morning was wearing a flesh colored bra but the strap was hanging down her arm the entire service. She came in late and was sitting 2 rows ahead of me or I would have alerted her. It set of my pet peeve meter but I'm not sitting here thinking she's immodest, wasn't raised right or is a shameless hussy or something, I think that's the difference in how some of the posts come across, kwim?

Heck, no bra strap showing here. I suffocate myself in a bustier first.

I beg you to give me one reason why showing cleavage would be a positive? Yes, Really.

One positive: My husband thinks its sexy, and if we're going out alone without kids, loves to see me wear obvious Wife Wear as opposed to 'Mom Gear'.

Sure it's cultural. There are cultures where it's immodest and there are cultures where it's no big deal and there are cultures, like ours, where there is a divided opinion. Some cultures went thousands of years with women going completely topless and it was not considered in any way immodest or sexual in their society.

 

The stumbling block argument is exactly what Muslims use to justify their dress code for women. Women should have their hair/heads/faces/entire bodies covered (depending on how conservative the culture is) so as not to tempt men into impure thoughts.

 

My opinion is that at some point men should be responsible for keeping their own minds pure.

BINGO!! I hate that men are seemingly believed to be a slave to their hormones, not a thought in their heads, that need to be protected from themselves, the poor souls, because they're just not capable of controlling their lust.

Oh snap! Being a woman of "endowments", I have always suffered from accusatory looks and remarks. Sometimes they pop out. Seriously, I don't want your man. I like mine just fine;). I am not stupid or less intelligent because God created me with a veritable Thanksgiving feast for my babies. I did not ask for these freakish endowments. Please do not fault me if one of my "ladies" gets loose. I'm trying.

:iagree:I've been glared at while wearing a sweatshirt several sizes too big! No cleavage at all being shown, but I can't hide the BooKs completely, they're there under the material. Not my fault, I didn't grow them to be freakishly large on purpose!!

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Please tell me the blanket statement I made again, b/c I have had a few glasses of wine and I simply do not remember making blanket statements.I do not like blanket statements so I would like to remedy it ASAP.

 

The blanket-statement you made was saying that you were too busy spending time with your children to read 15 pages of posts, thus implying that people who have read the post are not spending time with their children. Nice.

 

If you truly wanted an answer, you would read the post instead of expecting people to restate their reasons for your benefit, further wasting their time and keeping them away from their children. :glare:

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I guess I don't understand how women can be comfortable wearing that type of clothing that you have to worry about your bosom falling out.

 

We all have different ideas about what is acceptable and what looks good but we do have, as a society, to consider other people when we do the things we do in public view.... at the grocery store and at church.... :lol:

 

The clothing I wear that shows cleavage does not have this risk. There is a lot of difference between showing cleavage and boobs falling out.

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To be quite honest, I frequently think, when seeing a woman with it 'all hanging out' while out with her husband 'isn't her husband embarrassed for all the other men to be staring at his wife that way?' I mean, I honestly don't get it. WHY would a husband want his wife to be s*xually alluring to other men?

 

Just my opinion.

 

Well, that one is easy. For some men it's a status symbol, just like fancy sports cars. Look what I have and you don't. That also feeds into why some women dress that way in the first place. They want their man to be the one thinking looks what I got instead of the one wishing he had what some other man does.

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Well, that one is easy. For some men it's a status symbol, just like fancy sports cars. Look what I have and you don't. That also feeds into why some women dress that way in the first place. They want their man to be the one thinking looks what I got instead of the one wishing he had what some other man does.

 

I get what you're saying. I guess it just comes down to the fact that I want my husband to be proud of my 'gentle and quite spirit which is very precious in the sight of God' instead of my physical looks. But of course, I understand there are women who don't think the way I do. :)

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That also feeds into why some women dress that way in the first place. They want their man to be the one thinking looks what I got instead of the one wishing he had what some other man does.
ding ding ding! And the prize goes to....

 

Congratulations! What are you going to do now?

 

 

Pssttt... you are going to Disneyworld.

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Well, that one is easy. For some men it's a status symbol, just like fancy sports cars. Look what I have and you don't. That also feeds into why some women dress that way in the first place. They want their man to be the one thinking looks what I got instead of the one wishing he had what some other man does.

 

WOW! That's new to me. :ohmy:

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I get what you're saying. I guess it just comes down to the fact that I want my husband to be proud of my 'gentle and quite spirit which is very precious in the sight of God' instead of my physical looks. But of course, I understand there are women who don't think the way I do. :)
Or women whose men don't think that way. Or maybe they even wish they did, but they still really enjoy looking at the other women.

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When I think of 'falling out' its not right out of the shirt, but getting the dreaded 4 BooK look. And that's under a normal shirt even, no cleavage.

 

*sigh*

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When I think of 'falling out' its not right out of the shirt, but getting the dreaded 4 BooK look. And that's under a normal shirt even, no cleavage.

 

*sigh*

 

My oldest sister does this sometimes and she has an "A" cup. Maybe she needs to go to a "B" cup?

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I guess it just comes down to the fact that I want my husband to be proud of my 'gentle and quite spirit which is very precious in the sight of God' instead of my physical looks. But of course, I understand there are women who don't think the way I do. :)

 

I don't believe it needs to be either/or.

 

We are more than our physical appearance, our mental intellect, our personalities and spirit. We are a sum of many things, no? And I'd suspect we all desire that our partners be proud of the total package, rather than individual parts :) - be those our breasts, or our personality.

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BINGO!! I hate that men are seemingly believed to be a slave to their hormones, not a thought in their heads, that need to be protected from themselves, the poor souls, because they're just not capable of controlling their lust.

 

 

I hate that, too. It assumes all men are mere animals. But I would go further than that.

 

Personally, I believe strictures of dress on women are simply a tool of patriarchal oppression. That women feed into this and coerce other women into it through shame and fear tactics is, to me, one of the most despicable things about (some) women. When we not only willingly pick up the shackles of mysogyny, but clamp them on fellow women, we are perpetuating the denigration of our own humanity.

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LOL, I was just at a Renaissance Faire yesterday. Talk about cleavage! I would say that was a totally appropriate setting for it, though.

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BINGO!! I hate that men are seemingly believed to be a slave to their hormones, not a thought in their heads, that need to be protected from themselves, the poor souls, because they're just not capable of controlling their lust.

 

 

 

Who believes this? I've not seen that stated here in this thread. This thread is like an aerobics class, with all the stretching, leaning and jumping. :lol:

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I dress modestly for a few reasons; I dress the way I feel the Lord convcting me to. I dress the way my husband is comfortable with. And I dress the way I am comfortable with. For me, that means no cleavage at all. Why would I show off my cleavage to anyone but my husband?

 

 

and some muslims would wonder why in the WORLD you would be wanting to show off your face, hair, and eyes to anyone but your husband. ;)

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I hate that, too. It assumes all men are mere animals. But I would go further than that.

 

Personally, I believe strictures of dress on women are simply a tool of patriarchal oppression. That women feed into this and coerce other women into it through shame and fear tactics is, to me, one of the most despicable things about (some) women. When we not only willingly pick up the shackles of mysogyny, but clamp them on fellow women, we are perpetuating the denigration of our own humanity.

 

well, i completely disagree that women feeling personally convicted to dress modestly necessarily equates to any of this.

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I'm a 36H and have no problem keeping my chest covered. It's big and sticks out, but it's covered and I don't ever wear anything tight. I'd be far too embarrassed to show something as intimate as cleavage.

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The clothing I wear that shows cleavage does not have this risk. There is a lot of difference between showing cleavage and boobs falling out.

 

Thank you ! :iagree:

 

I don't mind a little bit of clevage depending on what I am wearing and where we are going. Church-no. A rare evening out with hubby-maybe.:)

 

There is a big difference in having a bit of a lower cut neckline and letting everything show and fall out.

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I hate that, too. It assumes all men are mere animals. But I would go further than that.

 

Personally, I believe strictures of dress on women are simply a tool of patriarchal oppression. That women feed into this and coerce other women into it through shame and fear tactics is, to me, one of the most despicable things about (some) women. When we not only willingly pick up the shackles of mysogyny, but clamp them on fellow women, we are perpetuating the denigration of our own humanity.

 

Oh, now you are traveling down the dark and twisty roads of the human psyche. Women's sexuality can be a source of power and sometimes members of both sexes are threatened by that power and therefore do their best to keep it under control.

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I get what you're saying. I guess it just comes down to the fact that I want my husband to be proud of my 'gentle and quite spirit which is very precious in the sight of God'

 

that is simply ONE sort of spirit that God adores :)

 

Throughout scripture we are given numerous examples of other Godly women, and not all of them had "meek and quiet" spirits --or if they did, it was their spirits that were meek and quiet, not necessarily their dress and actions :).

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and some muslims would wonder why in the WORLD you would be wanting to show off your face, hair, and eyes to anyone but your husband. ;)

 

If that is their conviction, then they should follow it, I would say.

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I'm a 36H and have no problem keeping my chest covered. It's big and sticks out, but it's covered and I don't ever wear anything tight. I'd be far too embarrassed to show something as intimate as cleavage.

 

....which goes back to assuming that everyone has the same standards of what is intimate ;)

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I beg you to give me one reason why showing cleavage would be a positive? Yes, Really.

 

Because my dh might like it ? Just a little clevage of course, nothing falling out or spilling over.:001_huh:

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The blanket-statement you made was saying that you were too busy spending time with your children to read 15 pages of posts, thus implying that people who have read the post are not spending time with their children. Nice.

 

If you truly wanted an answer, you would read the post instead of expecting people to restate their reasons for your benefit, further wasting their time and keeping them away from their children. :glare:

 

That is an off base conclusion. My statement was referring to the fact that I was about to put my children to bed and did not have time to read 15+ pages of posts. I was not sitting here judging those that did have time to post. It truly was not a dig.

 

Secondly,

 

I never expected everyone to restate their views purely for my benefit. I was only stating that I was giving a quick response and that I had not read all the replies. Something that is often done on here.

 

If I wanted to insult anyone, I would do it directly and clearly so there would be no mistake what I meant. I am not afraid to say what I mean. Your assumptions of what I meant are wrong.

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The idea that a woman is responsible for a man 'stumbling' is what prompted that remark. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

 

I dated a guy that adored my long hair. That was his attraction, his favourite thing on a woman was long hair. Should I keep mine bound in a bun in case it causes a man to stumble?

 

I dated another guy who found a woman's eyes the most attractive thing, and my eyes are very unusual in colour. Should I wear sunglasses all the time?

 

What about men with foot fetishes and shoe fetishes? Or men that find a pregnant woman beautiful?

 

Men should be able to control their own 'stumbling' and not make it the issue of others. Its called self control.

 

If I'm wearing something that shows cleavage, its a 99% surety that I'm out with my husband, or simply the fit of the shirt. I distinctly remember wearing a lower cut dress (with leggings) that I normally wouldn't wear without my dh present to an appointment at the pain clinic. Why? Because struggling in and out of my shirt, sitting there in my bra was less modest to me than a low cut dress that they could insert a needle into my chest without my needing to strip. Less painful for me too.

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If that is their conviction, then they should follow it, I would say.

 

I agree.

i just stop short of questioning why anyone would want to show off X to anyone other than their husband ;)

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One local post-secondary school I know of has a spoken rule, "no butt cracks, no boob cracks, both are inappropriate" and the majority of the women teachers are well endowed...so I figure if they are able to find a way to abide by it, then so are the students. And it's a secular school, no religion playing the field.

 

which is another reason I hate the school scene: absolute rules that offer no consideration for comfort.

 

 

My point is you can find clothes to fit your body/type but it takes work to find clothes that fit properly. Most people never want to spend the time to find clothes that fit right.

 

yeah, there are ways to LOOK and FIND clothes that would be considered "suitable" by other people's standards, but not everyone HAS that time, money, or inclination to go out of their way looking for X Shirt when we have one that we're already comfortable with.

 

I guess I don't understand how women can be comfortable wearing that type of clothing that you have to worry about your bosom falling out.

 

just because something has a plunging neckline doesn't mean the bosoms are falling out ;) My clothes fit well and I never worry.

 

We all have different ideas about what is acceptable and what looks good but we do have, as a society, to consider other people when we do the things we do in public view....

 

and considering how other people feel about something does not mean we must bow to their standards. It means we have thought about it and understand there are some that have issues with it.

 

I heard some conservative muslims were appalled at the toe cracks seen when their women were wearing sandals! :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol:

 

ROTFLOL! excellent point ;)

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I hate that, too. It assumes all men are mere animals. But I would go further than that.

 

Personally, I believe strictures of dress on women are simply a tool of patriarchal oppression. That women feed into this and coerce other women into it through shame and fear tactics is, to me, one of the most despicable things about (some) women. When we not only willingly pick up the shackles of mysogyny, but clamp them on fellow women, we are perpetuating the denigration of our own humanity.

See I think that our society has everyone believing that a woman must be sexy in order to have value. That is even more damaging to women's rights IMO.

 

Oh, now you are traveling down the dark and twisty roads of the human psyche. Women's sexuality can be a source of power and sometimes members of both sexes are threatened by that power and therefore do their best to keep it under control.

See I think that in recent years our attitude has shifted. It used to be: "She dresses that way to please men and therefore must have little self-esteem, buy into the idea of being used; men believe women are just pieces of meat." Now it is "she is using the power of her sexuality". To me, it doesn't matter the attitude. That a woman is expected to be sexy/that being sexy is a coveted thing that every woman must strive for is detremental to our society.

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that is simply ONE sort of spirit that God adores :)

 

Throughout scripture we are given numerous examples of other Godly women, and not all of them had "meek and quiet" spirits --or if they did, it was their spirits that were meek and quiet, not necessarily their dress and actions :).

Godly men were also prized for being meek.;)

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Men should be able to control their own 'stumbling' and not make it the issue of others. Its called self control.

 

I absolutely agree, Impish.

If we cannot walk down the street without my husband gawking and staring at women's breasts, it seems to me that he would be the one with the problem, not the women with snug or low-cut tops.

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which is another reason I hate the school scene: absolute rules that offer no consideration for comfort.

 

Dunno, everyone at school looks pretty comfortable to me. No one is in turtlenecks. Many wear shirts with necklines that are 5-7in away from their necks, but still no cleavage, even on the bigger women. The most cleavage I may have seen is an inch, but that's not falling out of one's shirt (I personally wouldn't be comfortable as I have a long torso and that is a lot of bare chest area on me before you get to my cleavage...but that is me).

 

Men are responsible for themselves. At the same time, we don't have to shove things in their faces all the time. "Here's my arse, now control yourself". I'm willing to bet that this is not what most women showing cleavage here do though. I'm wondering if the OP was referring to the type that show as much cleavage as possible without bouncing the girls out of their tops vs a subtle amount of cleavage.

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:w00t:

 

At the grocery store, at church ... and not just a little!!

 

 

:001_huh:

 

I am guilty of occasionally showing a little cleavage...in my garden in the backyard on a 100-degree day in July. Or in my un-air-conditioned house on the same 100-degree day.

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I absolutely agree, Impish.

If we cannot walk down the street without my husband gawking and staring at women's breasts, it seems to me that he would be the one with the problem, not the women with snug or low-cut tops.

Exactly.

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