Jewish faith question-Would someone be able to explain to me as simply as possible

[fj62]

What is the difference btw. a Messianic Jew and Orthodox in terms of belief? Is there a simple resource to explain this? I would really appreciate your helping me gain understanding in this area!

[Impish]

I'm not Jewish, but asked the same question before. It was explained to me (could be wrong) that Messianic Jews believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and Orthodox Jews do not.

 

That's the simplest explanation I've heard.

[MyLittleWonders]

Yep - Messianic Jews keep Jewish feast days and the commandments. They also worship Jesus as Son of God. There are a few different types of Messianic Jews - some congregations are made only of Jewish people who have become Christian (Messianic) and keep the feasts/commandments. Some congregations are made almost completely of Gentiles who were Christian to begin with and then adopted the Jewish feasts and commandments as their own without converting to Judaism. In the groups I have seen (2 different congregations), there was a very evangelical feel to them - worship/praise music complete with guitars and drums, usually dancing too, plus sometimes the feeling of being the ultimate right way to be doing things - feeling they were completely modeled after the first churches following the death of Jesus, where His followers were mostly all Jewish by birth but had begun to follow the Way. Typically Messianic Jews denounce Christmas and Easter as Pagan holidays and will only keep Biblical holidays.

[Spy Car]

The use of the term "Messianic Jews" to describe Christians causes an outrage and anger among Jews that is difficult for me to over-estimate.

 

To the great dismay of Jews who practice Judaism (whether highly observant or not), there are groups of Christians who have expropriated the term, and have used some of the trappings of Judaism in their services. Some are from an ethnic Jewish background, some are not.

 

But these so-called "Messianic Jews" are not practicing Judaism, they are Christians. And they use the term knowing full well it cause the gravest insult to Jews, because the term inherently negates the Jewish faith.

 

For what it's worth, Jews who practice Judaism are (in the main) "messianic". They expect a human (non-divine, non-savior) anointed leader-king or Moshiach who will usher in the Messianic age, according to their faith. But Jesus wasn't it.

 

The use of the term "Messianic Jews" by people who do believe Jesus was the Messiah (instead of them calling themselves what they are religiously, which is Christians) causes incredibly bad feelings among Jews.

 

I see the term used frequently on these boards (and no doubt often innocently) but I'd caution such use is about the most hurtful language a Jew could encounter. Is hard for me to express the degree of insult felt in the Jewish community by this terminology.

 

For any person not looking to cause grave offense, the use of the term "Messianic Jews" to describe people who practice Christianity should be avoided.

 

Bill

[specialmama]

For any person not looking to cause grave offense, the use of the term "Messianic Jews" to describe people who practice Christianity should be avoided.

 

Bill

 

To describe people who practice Christianity? That term would be Christian. Messianic Jews are Jewish people who recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

[Spy Car]

To describe people who practice Christianity? That term would be Christian. Messianic Jews are Jewish people who recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

 

Ethnically Jewish people (and others) who practice Christianity, and not the Jewish faith.

[Laurel]

The use of the term "Messianic Jews" to describe Christians causes an outrage and anger among Jews that is difficult for me to over-estimate.

 

To the great dismay of Jews who practice Judaism (whether highly observant or not), there are groups of Christians who have expropriated the term, and have used some of the trappings of Judaism in their services. Some are from an ethnic Jewish background, some are not.

 

But these so-called "Messianic Jews" are not practicing Judaism, they are Christians. And they use the term knowing full well it cause the gravest insult to Jews, because the term inherently negates the Jewish faith.

 

For what it's worth, Jews who practice Judaism are (in the main) "messianic". They expect a human (non-divine, non-savior) anointed leader-king or Moshiach who will usher in the Messianic age, according to their faith. But Jesus wasn't it.

 

The use of the term "Messianic Jews" by people who do believe Jesus was the Messiah (instead of them calling themselves what they are religiously, which is Christians) causes incredibly bad feelings among Jews.

 

I see the term used frequently on these boards (and no doubt often innocently) but I'd caution such use is about the most hurtful language a Jew could encounter. Is hard for me to express the degree of insult felt in the Jewish community by this terminology.

 

For any person not looking to cause grave offense, the use of the term "Messianic Jews" to describe people who practice Christianity should be avoided.

 

Bill

 

:iagree: Thank you Bill for always phrasing this so eloquently every time this subject comes up.

[Impish]

Bill. All I know is what I was told by someone that self identified as a Messianic Jew. So, I'm not going to avoid that term when someone self identifies in that way. The person I'm speaking of was raised Jewish, still observes dietary restrictions, Jewish Holy days, etc. But, she recognizes Jesus Christ as The Messiah.

 

I understand that those who self identify as Jewish would be bothered by the term, as it is different set of beliefs than their own. I get that. However, to say that the term 'Messianic Jews' shouldn't be used is completely ridiculous, and puts down an entire group of people who claim that title as their religion.

 

They have the right to use that term, and others do as well, since that's what they claim as their faith. One religious group of people does not have the right to tell another what they may or may not call their faith, nor dictate to them what they may or may not worship. As long as it is not illegal (ie promoting hatred) then one person/groups rights end where another's begin.

[Aubrey]

The use of the term "Messianic Jews" to describe Christians causes an outrage and anger among Jews that is difficult for me to over-estimate.

 

To the great dismay of Jews who practice Judaism (whether highly observant or not), there are groups of Christians who have expropriated the term, and have used some of the trappings of Judaism in their services. Some are from an ethnic Jewish background, some are not.

 

But these so-called "Messianic Jews" are not practicing Judaism, they are Christians. And they use the term knowing full well it cause the gravest insult to Jews, because the term inherently negates the Jewish faith.

 

For what it's worth, Jews who practice Judaism are (in the main) "messianic". They expect a human (non-divine, non-savior) anointed leader-king or Moshiach who will usher in the Messianic age, according to their faith. But Jesus wasn't it.

 

The use of the term "Messianic Jews" by people who do believe Jesus was the Messiah (instead of them calling themselves what they are religiously, which is Christians) causes incredibly bad feelings among Jews.

 

I see the term used frequently on these boards (and no doubt often innocently) but I'd caution such use is about the most hurtful language a Jew could encounter. Is hard for me to express the degree of insult felt in the Jewish community by this terminology.

 

For any person not looking to cause grave offense, the use of the term "Messianic Jews" to describe people who practice Christianity should be avoided.

 

Bill

 

How do you distinguish then between Jews who do not believe Jesus was the Messiah & ones who do? There seems to me to be a divide between Christians who follow a medieval tradition & ones who follow a more ancient tradition, some of them even being Jews. One could call these people Christians--& accurately--but I think it would be misleading to call a Jew, who fully embraces his religion but sees Jesus as the Messiah, a Christian in the same sense that a Sunday-morning Baptist is a Christian.

 

Not that one is more or less than the other, just that to call the Jew a Christian in this context seems to negate his faith at least as much as the term Messianic Jew.

 

I guess I've seen a tendency to tell Jews that they have to choose between one faith & the other, & it seems unfair. Jesus & his disciples were all Jews. They did not give up their customs; instead they saw deeper meaning in them. The 2nd 1/2 (or 1/3 would be a better measurement) of the Bible is FULL of Aha! so THAT'S what was meant!

 

There's no reason (that I see) to tear the Bible in 1/2 & tell people, CHOOSE. I think both 1/2s point to the other. That belief rarely causes me trouble in *my* life, but from what I understand, it can be a much more difficult situation for a Jew who wants to follow Jesus.

[Spy Car]

Bill. All I know is what I was told by someone that self identified as a Messianic Jew. So, I'm not going to avoid that term when someone self identifies in that way. The person I'm speaking of was raised Jewish, still observes dietary restrictions, Jewish Holy days, etc. But, she recognizes Jesus Christ as The Messiah.

 

I understand that those who self identify as Jewish would be bothered by the term, as it is different set of beliefs than their own. I get that. However, to say that the term 'Messianic Jews' shouldn't be used is completely ridiculous, and puts down an entire group of people who claim that title as their religion.

 

They have the right to use that term, and others do as well, since that's what they claim as their faith. One religious group of people does not have the right to tell another what they may or may not call their faith, nor dictate to them what they may or may not worship. As long as it is not illegal (ie promoting hatred) then one person/groups rights end where another's begin.

 

There is not apt analogy, so I won't offer one, but if there was a faith that self-identified in such a way that they (in the very name they chose) negated the Christian faith (especially in the situation where this group was in the majority and Christians in the minority) then I think the anger felt by Jews might be more comprehensible to you.

 

Just don't fail to understand that the term "Messianic Jews" causes outrage in the Jewish community. And if you, or groups self-identifying as such, use the term that it does cause grave insult to Jews.

 

Just so you are aware.

 

Bill

[sheryl]

What is the difference btw. a Messianic Jew and Orthodox in terms of belief? Is there a simple resource to explain this? I would really appreciate your helping me gain understanding in this area!

 

 

A Messianic Jew believes in Jesus (Yeshua) as Messiah! They are believers like I am, but they are Jewish. They know, believe, accept and teach Jesus was born, died and made atonement for sins. They are "completed Jews". Yes, Messianic Jews keep the feasts and many Gentile believers in Christ do too. For one example, Easter is not in the Bible. However, Passover is scriptural. Now as believers, Jews and Gentiles, we preach and teach the cross, but in terms of celebrating Easter it isn't scriptural.

 

Orthodox Jews, and there are many Jewish "groups" are strict in the beliefs and dietary restrictions to name two. HTH. Sheryl <><

[coralloyd]

I went to a Messianic Congregation for a while. The Rabbi and most of the members were Jews. We celebrated all the feasts, and held to most of the Jewish traditions of synagogue (they believe much, if not all of it, points to or is a picture of Jesus). The word Christian for many Jews has a very negative history to it. So these Jewish people, who follow Jesus as their Messiah, choose to use the term "Messianic Jews". The fact is that they are Jews. Jesus was a Jew, and identified himself as such (not as a Christian). They find no need to do away with their nationality or culture just because they belive in Jesus.

[sheryl]

There is not apt analogy, so I won't offer one, but if there was a faith that self-identified in such a way that they (in the very name they chose) negated the Christian faith (especially in the situation where this group was in the majority and Christians in the minority) then I think the anger felt by Jews might be more comprehensible to you.

 

Just don't fail to understand that the term "Messianic Jews" causes outrage in the Jewish community. And if you, or groups self-identifying as such, use the term that it does cause grave insult to Jews.

 

Just so you are aware.

 

Bill

 

 

Bill, I've never thought of it as an outrage. I'm guessing you are Jewish, I don't know. I am a Gentile and Christian who has a love for Israel (land and people). I don't even like to use the term Christian much anymore, but "follower of Jesus".

 

Many Messianic Jews have NEVER been taught about Yeshua. THey think he was a man, a teacher, but do not recognize Him as the Son of G-d, Savior of the world.

 

G-d has always brought Jewish people across my path. This started when I was a gril and my friend Lori and I were in the same activities together. I remember going to her house and looking at the Menorah.

 

And, today G-d is increasing my crossing paths with the wonderful Jewish people and community. I met a strict Orthodox Jewish man last week. He gave my daughter and I a Kosher lolli pop. I asked him if I could make and give him Rugelach or Noodle Kugel. He couldn't accept because he's kosher. I invited him out to lunch with my dd and I. He took our info and I hope to hear from him. He is a lovely 85 year old.

 

My interests are not to debate here. Atonement was made by animal sacrifice in Old Covenant, but in the New Covenant there is one who is the "perfect" sacrifice. He made atonement for sins.....check Him out.

 

Sheryl

 

PS....While I attend church, I also attend temple with a local Messianic congregation. Sam is one of the best teachers I've ever heard. What a gift.

[specialmama]

There is not apt analogy, so I won't offer one, but if there was a faith that self-identified in such a way that they (in the very name they chose) negated the Christian faith (especially in the situation where this group was in the majority and Christians in the minority) then I think the anger felt by Jews might be more comprehensible to you.

 

Just don't fail to understand that the term "Messianic Jews" causes outrage in the Jewish community. And if you, or groups self-identifying as such, use the term that it does cause grave insult to Jews.

 

Just so you are aware.

 

Bill

 

Sure, there are many apt analogies that are equal to what you are suggesting. Let's see. Oh, don't mention the term gay to straight people, it is very offensive. Or, don't mention the term Holocost to this group, because they don't believe it happened and it's a grave insult. Don't mention homeschooling to public schoolers, they get very angry. I'm sorry, Bill, but just because group A may be offended or angry by the mention of group B does not mean it is right to deny group B the title of their own choosing, nor does it warrant a warning to us as to whether or not we choose to use the title.

 

I went to a Messianic Congregation for a while. The Rabbi and most of the members were Jews. We celebrated all the feasts, and held to most of the Jewish traditions of synagogue (they believe much, if not all of it, points to or is a picture of Jesus). The word Christian for many Jews has a very negative history to it. So these Jewish people, who follow Jesus as their Messiah, choose to use the term "Messianic Jews". The fact is that they are Jews. Jesus was a Jew, and identified himself as such (not as a Christian). They find no need to do away with their nationality or culture just because they belive in Jesus.

:iagree: :iagree::iagree:

[Tangerine]

They are "completed Jews".

 

And the rest of the Jews are...incomplete?

[sheryl]

If he is Jewish, I am sorry he is offended. However, he cannot tell other Jews (that believe Jesus is the Messiah) not to call themselves Messianic Jews because Jews (who do not believe Jesus in the Messiah) are still waiting.

 

My husband is a Christian German Jew, and I resent Spy Car's statements. If my husband calls himself a Messianic Jew, a Christian Jew, or a Christian, that is his business, and it would NEVER be done to insult someone else.

 

Yes, I understand where you're coming from. However, as a follower of Christ I do not want to resent Spy Car or anyone else. I don't know his faith. The Jewish people gave us Jesus. Now we who follow the Messiah desire to give Jesus BACK TO THEM!

 

Please remember that most Jewish people do not teach Jesus to their children. Children grow up and it becomes cyclical.

 

I just sent an email to a Messianic Jewish man at the temple I attend on occassion. He is the cantor. When I read his testimony he "resisted" anything Jesus until his sister shared Yeshua with her brother. Beautiful!

 

So, thank G-d that your dh knows Jesus as L-rd! He can now share Messiah with others!! :001_smile:

[skirch]

What is the difference btw. a Messianic Jew and Orthodox in terms of belief? Is there a simple resource to explain this? I would really appreciate your helping me gain understanding in this area!

 

Rabbi Kushner spoke at our church last year and and this exact question was asked. His answer, quite simply, was "They are Christians."

[fj62]

So what do Orthodox Jews believe about Jesus? Do you know of a simple resource where I could learn more?

[Spy Car]

How do you distinguish then between Jews who do not believe Jesus was the Messiah & ones who do?

 

How do you not distinguish the two?

 

Jews (who practice Judaism) don't believe in a divine moshiach or messiah. They don't hold to the idea this "anointed one" will be a "son of God" or a component part of a divine god-head. Jews see the Moshiah as a great political leader but one who is "human" and only human.

 

And you know what Christians believe. It's not the same thing. These are two separate belief systems, that diverged thousands of years ago.

 

There seems to me to be a divide between Christians who follow a medieval tradition & ones who follow a more ancient tradition, some of them even being Jews.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying, but the so-called "Messianic Jewish" movement is a modern one. There were some antecedent "Hebrew-Christian" groups in the nineteenth century, but in the main this movement started in the 1960's as a way of converting Jews to Christianity.

 

It is not an ancient movement.

 

One could call these people Christians--& accurately--but I think it would be misleading to call a Jew, who fully embraces his religion but sees Jesus as the Messiah, a Christian in the same sense that a Sunday-morning Baptist is a Christian.

 

I would suspect many Christians would take issue with this. Would an Italian not be a Christian in the same way a Sunday-morning Baptist is a Christian. Why is it different for an ethnic Jew?

 

Not that one is more or less than the other, just that to call the Jew a Christian in this context seems to negate his faith at least as much as the term Messianic Jew.

 

Huh? If an ethnic Jew believes that Jesus was the messiah, then how is he (or she) not a Christian?

 

And in any case they are not practicing Judaism.

 

I guess I've seen a tendency to tell Jews that they have to choose between one faith & the other, & it seems unfair.

 

Unfair? How is it unfair? A person pretty much has to choose if they are a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim, as these faiths have some mutually exclusive ideas.

 

There's no reason (that I see) to tear the Bible in 1/2 & tell people, CHOOSE. I think both 1/2s point to the other. That belief rarely causes me trouble in *my* life, but from what I understand, it can be a much more difficult situation for a Jew who wants to follow Jesus.

 

No one has said a Jew couldn't "follow Jesus" and thereby become religiously Christian. They just couldn't become a Christian, and at the same time claim they were practicing Judaism. Not without causing grave offense to the Jewish community.

 

I would think that you are sensitive and intelligent enough to understand to understand the problem Jews have with this.

 

All the best,

 

Bill

[fj62]

so, do they not believe in any of the New Testament?

[Garga]

At first I was going to poo-poo Bill's points and say he was being over-the-top in his answer.

 

But then something reminded me of the scripture Acts 11:26 "...And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

 

The disciples were all Jewish men who believed that Jesus was the messiah the Jewish people had been waiting for.

 

So, I guess that Bill is correct! (Much to my surprise!) According to the bible, Jewish people who believe that Jesus is the messiah are...Christians!

 

As an aside: The term Messianic Jewish seems to mean: Christians (as Bill pointed out), who follow much of the Jewish traditions, that other Christians do not normally follow--such as the feasts like Passover, Hanukkah, etc, and perhaps the dietary restrictions, etc. Some of them follow these Jewish traditions as it is their racial heritage (is that the correct phrase? Racial?) and some follow these traditions because it enhances their Christianity. (They want to follow the same feasts, etc, that Jesus did--to be more like Jesus.)

Edited October 1, 2009 by Garga

[Erica in PA]

I disagree, Spy Car. So if there is a Jew who is a Christian, why aren't they considered a Messianic Jew?! Same belief, they just believe Jesus was it.

 

No one I know, who calls themselves Messianic Jews, are doing it to be rude or insulting, or "use the term knowing full well it cause the gravest insult to Jews, because the term inherently negates the Jewish faith". That is just astounding to me. :confused:

 

:iagree: I understand why Jews would prefer to say that those who accept Jesus as Messiah not refer to themselves as Jews anymore, but at the same time I don't think they have the right to insist that because someone adopts a different religious belief, they have given up their identity, and call no longer call themselves Jews at all. Ultimately I think people should choose for themselves what they want to call themselves.

[Impish]

I have problems with lots of things. That doesn't mean that I have exclusive rights and the ability to tell others what they can and cannot do.

 

Again, my rights ends where another's begins. And so it goes, in all things. Unless its illegal, you dictate to someone what they may or may not be, call themselves, worship, etc etc etc.

 

Friends of mine are Catholic. Their son converted to Judaism, and married a Jewish woman. They were hurt and upset...but didn't have the right to tell him no. They were offended that he turned his back on everything he'd been raised with, the faith that is very dear to them.

 

However, being intelligent people who loved their son, they accepted his choices. Too bad that the rest of the world can't get past their 'what I want' and quit putting their demands on others.

 

A Messianic Jew is a Messianic Jew, just as a Roman Catholic is a Roman Catholic, an Orthodox Catholic is Orthodox Catholic, etc.

 

One group's objections does not devalue another's faith. Nor do they have the right to restrict the title, the name of the other faith.

[Erica in PA]

How do you not distinguish the two?

 

Jews (who practice Judaism) don't believe in a divine moshiach or messiah. They don't hold to the idea this "anointed one" will be a "son of God" or a component part of a divine god-head. Jews see the Moshiah as a great political leader but one who is "human" and only human.

 

And you know what Christians believe. It's not the same thing. These are two separate belief systems, that diverged thousands of years ago.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you are saying, but the so-called "Messianic Jewish" movement is a modern one. There were some antecedent "Hebrew-Christian" groups in the nineteenth century, but in the main this movement started in the 1960's as a way of converting Jews to Christianity.

 

It is not an ancient movement.

 

 

 

I would suspect many Christians would take issue with this. Would an Italian not be a Christian in the same way a Sunday-morning Baptist is a Christian. Why is it different for an ethnic Jew?

 

 

 

Huh? If an ethnic Jew believes that Jesus was the messiah, then how is he (or she) not a Christian?

 

And in any case they are not practicing Judaism.

 

 

 

Unfair? How is it unfair? A person pretty much has to choose if they are a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim, as these faiths have some mutually exclusive ideas.

 

 

 

No one has said a Jew couldn't "follow Jesus" and thereby become religiously Christian. They just couldn't become a Christian, and at the same time claim they were practicing Judaism. Not without causing grave offense to the Jewish community.

 

I would think that you are sensitive and intelligent enough to understand to understand the problem Jews have with this.

 

All the best,

 

Bill

 

What do you make of the fact that Jews have no such problem with Jews who don't even believe in God at all? Secular Jews aren't told to not identify that way.

[Spy Car]

:iagree: I understand why Jews would prefer to say that those who accept Jesus as Messiah not refer to themselves as Jews anymore, but at the same time I don't think they have the right to insist that because someone adopts a different religious belief, they have given up their identity, and call no longer call themselves Jews at all. Ultimately I think people should choose for themselves what they want to call themselves.

 

Jews don't insist that their brothers and sisters who become Christians stop calling themselves Jews. These people are, from a Jewish perspective, still part of the Jewish people. But the religion they are practicing is not Judaism, it is Christianity.

 

And the problems arise from calling a variation of the Christian faith "Jewish" and not from converts to Christianity maintaing their Jewish ethnic identity.

 

ETA: I'm not Jewish.

 

Bill

[ThatCyndiGirl]

They are "completed Jews".

 

 

 

Please do not use such offensive language. I am going to assume that you didn't mean to inflame or insult, but to suggest, nay to SAY OUTRIGHT that Jews are not "complete" without adopting your belief is a HUGE insult!

 

 

Believe what you wish, but please don't insult Jews this way. Thanks.

 

 

ETA: My mother calls herself a messianic jew. To my understanding, when I researched it years ago, this movement was started in an Assembly of God church to get Jews to convert to xianity. A very offensive mission, to my mind.

[sheryl]

Sheryl, I never said I resented Spy Car. I said I resented the statement he made about Messianic Jews using the phrase to, basically, spite Jews. Very big difference! :001_smile:

 

Of course I know Jews do not "teach Jesus to their children". :confused: I'm not being rude, just trying to figure out where I led you to believe that.

 

I stand corrected. Yes, you did say statement. I forget the original statement..I'd have to see it. But, if children were taught about Jesus in Jewish homes, we wouldn't be having this discussion. ;)

 

Like I said, that's great about your dh!!!

[sheryl]

Please do not use such offensive language. I am going to assume that you didn't mean to inflame or insult, but to suggest, nay to SAY OUTRIGHT that Jews are not "complete" without adopting your belief is a HUGE insult!

 

 

Believe what you wish, but please don't insult Jews this way. Thanks.

 

Well, my Jewish believing friends use it.....so, where's the offense????

[ThatCyndiGirl]

The offense is in assuming that Jews who do not adopt xian beliefs are "incomplete".

[OnTheBrink]

My EXMIL calls herself a Messianic Jew, but quite frankly, I think she's in a cult. I don't believe MJ's are a cult; but I think what SHE'S involved in is one. Pretty strange, and frankly, inconsistent stuff. She's no more Jewish than my cat is, yet she fully believes she's one of the 144,000 spoken of in Revelations, and does adhere (at her convenience) to the OT feasts, laws, holidays, etc.

 

It's all very strange. I used to know a MJish family, and I went to Temple with them a few times and LOVED the service, but that was nothing like what EXMIL is involved in. I'm not sure what to think of it, tbh.

 

As far as MJ's calling themselves that simply to offend Jews--sorry, I find that ridiculous and contrary to what and how MJ's believe. I seriously doubt an entire belief system decided to identify themselves as MJ's solely to hack off another group.

[iammommy]

Thank you, Bill, for posting this!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

SolaMichelle, no I don't think that they call themselves that "to hack off another group". I think that they call themselves that to make their point.

 

 

I know the type of group you are talking about with your ex-MIL. My mom is involved in something similar. Very sad.

[sheryl]

Also, my Jewish believing friends:

 

Believe in Jesus as Messiah and Savior

Do NOT call themselves Christian!

They remain Jewish! They practice Hanukkah, Passover, etc.

 

They "remain" Jewish and keep the Holy Days....difference is they now profess Christ!

[OnTheBrink]

...to get Jews to convert to xianity. A very offensive mission, to my mind.

 

And that is exactly what Jesus' ministry was--convert the Jews, then the Gentiles.

 

So, do all Jews find Jesus' ministry to have been offensive? (not snarking--I know very little about Judaism and how they view Jesus today)

[Spy Car]

This is so rude. "I would think you are sensitive and intelligent enough to understand" how so.

 

It is not "rude". It is a historical fact. As a modern movement "Messianic Judaism" didn't even exist under this name until 1975.

 

Obviously 2000 years ago there was a period when Christianity and Jewish followers of Jesus transitioned into their own distinct faith. It wasn't an "over-night" separation.

 

But the fact remains that the so-called "Messianic Jewish" movement is a modern one as a "movement". Granting that it is an attempt to recreate an ancient form of Christianity where Jewish customs and holidays were still observed in the modern age.

 

Bill

[OnTheBrink]

SolaMichelle, no I don't think that they call themselves that "to hack off another group". I think that they call themselves that to make their point.

 

 

I know the type of group you are talking about with your ex-MIL. My mom is involved in something similar. Very sad.

 

Has the name Monte Judah come up at all with your MIL? Does your MIL call herself a "Sabbath Keeper?" If so, I'd love to compare notes with you on this stuff.

[sheryl]

The offense is in assuming that Jews who do not adopt xian beliefs are "incomplete".

 

Well.....complete in as much as they recognize and believe Jesus is Messiah! Jesus' lineage is Jewish. If a Jewish person believes and accepts Him as the Messiah then their faith is full circle/complete in as much as they have Him their lives now. Hope that makes sense.

 

I never thought about non-believing Jews as being incomplete so I can't help there.

[sheryl]

It is not "rude". It is a historical fact. As a modern movement "Messianic Judaism" didn't even exist under this name until 1975.

 

Obviously 2000 years ago there was a period when Christianity and Jewish followers of Jesus transitioned into their own distinct faith. It wasn't an "over-night" separation.

 

But the fact remains that the so-called "Messianic Jewish" movement is a modern one as a "movement". Granting that it is an attempt to recreate an ancient form of Christianity where Jewish customs and holidays were still observed in the modern age.

 

Bill

 

 

 

No Bill, "Hebrews" (New Covenant) were Messianic Jews

[specialmama]

Jews don't insist that their brothers and sisters who become Christians stop calling themselves Jews. These people are, from a Jewish perspective, still part of the Jewish people. But the religion they are practicing is not Judaism, it is Christianity.

 

And the problems arise from calling a variation of the Christian faith "Jewish" and not from converts to Christianity maintaing their Jewish ethnic identity.

 

ETA: I'm not Jewish.

 

Bill

 

Again, you sound all wise, but you've got it wrong. The religion they are practicing is Judaisim, with the prophesies fulfilled in Jesus.

Christians (meaning those who believe in Jesus but are not of Jewish lineage) have been adopted (or grafted) into the family (or tree). Messianic Jews have (by means of the promise to Abraham and lineage) retain their Jewish roots and many customs, including feasts (albeit more purposeful in light of Yeshua's coming). They have always been in the family, always on the tree. Christians do not need to run out and get circumcised, they do not need to adhere to OT law, they do not need to become Jewish (religion and/or culture). I think you're getting way too confused on this one. See, if a Jewish person (by religion and culture) sees Christ as the Messiah, he does not become Christian as we understand it. He does not get grafted on the tree, he's already there. He retains his Jewish roots (culture and religion, only with Christ as the Redeemer.)

[elizabeth]

What do you make of the fact that Jews have no such problem with Jews who don't even believe in God at all? Secular Jews aren't told to not identify that way.

Unlike Christianity there is no requirement for a Jewish person to believe in a personal savior God. There is no comparison to be made between the two ideas, that of a stealth Christianity masquerading as Judaism and a purely cultural secular Jewish person. The ideas on afterlife, diet, ethics , ritual etc all vary in extent and degree between Reform, Conservative , Orthodox , Hasidic and Reconstructionist Judaism. There are radically divergent ideas between Judaism and Christianity in terms of both teleology and metaphysics particularly as concerns afterlife. If you are curious there are many fine books about Judaism that are very solid sources of information. I would suggest that it is paramount to read one written by a Jewish author as it is nigh impossible to accurately understand Judaism if one is looking at it through Christian lenses. That leads to the very offensive ideas and misconceptions regarding the state of being spiritually for Jewish persons including but not limited to the idea that they are "unfinished or incomplete Christians." That is the underlying message of many Christian authors. It is offensive in ways that I cannot adequately express but the roots of disdain for those who want to practice Christianity yet call themselves Messianic Jews stems from this underlying paradigm that Jews are not" complete or fulfilled"spritually until they accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. To ask the question regarding secular Jews as offensive to practicing Jews for the act of self identifying as Jews makes clear that the differences between their world view and your own are vast.

[Impish]

Again, you sound all wise, but you've got it wrong. The religion they are practicing is Judaisim, with the prophesies fulfilled in Jesus.

Christians (meaning those who believe in Jesus but are not of Jewish lineage) have been adopted (or grafted) into the family (or tree). Messianic Jews have (by means of the promise to Abraham and lineage) retain their Jewish roots and many customs, including feasts (albeit more purposeful in light of Yeshua's coming). They have always been in the family, always on the tree. Christians do not need to run out and get circumcised, they do not need to adhere to OT law, they do not need to become Jewish (religion and/or culture). I think you're getting way too confused on this one. See, if a Jewish person (by religion and culture) sees Christ as the Messiah, he does not become Christian as we understand it. He does not get grafted on the tree, he's already there. He retains his Jewish roots (culture and religion, only with Christ as the Redeemer.)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Spy Car]

Again, you sound all wise, but you've got it wrong. The religion they are practicing is Judaisim, with the prophesies fulfilled in Jesus.

 

I think you make my point. If a group believes in a divine messiah (a concept unknown in Judaism), and they claim (rightly) not only to be "ethnic" Jews, but further claim that their religion is Judaism, then they lay claim to obliterating the Jewish faith in the process.

 

And this is exactly why Jews are so troubled by the use of the term.

 

Don't you see that?

 

Bill

[*********]

Something may not have existed under a cerain name, but that does not mean it did not exist! Christan Jews have continued to celebrate the Jewish feasts/festivals/commandments all this time!!! True, there may be more Christians (Gentiles) turning to this way of life, but it was always there. To say it was not, would just be historically incorrect!

 

You know, the twelve disciples were Christian Jews. Well, maybe not Judas, but you get my point. ;) They were Jews by faith and hertiage, and they accepted Christ as the Messiah.

 

The New Testament tells us it is ok to keep the feasts, or not keep the feasts; it is ok to follow Jewish tradition, or not follow Jewish tradition. It tells us that these things are not of the utmost importance; the important thing is that the Gentiles and Jews alike were following Christ.

 

I guess perhaps the term 'Christian Jew' would be more correct, if you will, than Messianic Jew. But who cares? Why would you take offense? I don't understand. Jews who do not accept Christ as the Messiah are Jews; Gentiles who accept Christ as the Messiah are called Christians; and some Jews who accept Christ as the Messiah can call themselves Christians or Messianic Jews, if that's what they want. I don't see how that's offensive to Jews.

 

However, since the followers of Christ, in the book of Acts, were called Christians, that's what I'll call myself. :001_smile:

[Impish]

I totally do not understand how anyone is being obliterated.

 

Nobody is FORCING anyone to change their faith, language, etc.

 

If we want to discuss obliteration, try Residential Schools that First Nations children were FORCED into, their hair cut, their language forbidden, their culture attempted to be wiped out, with a frightening degree of success.

 

People calling themselves Messianic Jews are not obliterating anyone.

[Sputterduck]

For what it's worth, Jews who practice Judaism are (in the main) "messianic". They expect a human (non-divine, non-savior) anointed leader-king or Moshiach who will usher in the Messianic age, according to their faith. But Jesus wasn't it.

 

 

Funny how at the synagogue I learned Hebrew at they told me that Jews waiting for a messiah was a Christian thought and that Jews aren't and never were. They were Reform though, and didn't exactly care about sticking to things word for word. I thought it was odd, but they all asserted it strongly.

[OnTheBrink]

I think you make my point. If a group believes in a divine messiah (a concept unknown in Judaism), and they claim (rightly) not only to be "ethnic" Jews, but further claim that their religion is Judaism, then they lay claim to obliterating the Jewish faith in the process.

 

And this is exactly why Jews are so troubled by the use of the term.

 

Don't you see that?

 

Bill

 

Bill, OT prophecy is full of references to a coming messiah. Why do you think the Jews don't believe in messiah? Read Isaiah, or any of the prophets.

 

And, I think it's a stretch to say that MJ's calling themselves MJ's is somehow laying claim to the obliteration of the Jews. That's not the goal and according to biblical prophecy, won't happen even if it were. Again, that would be contrary to what they believe.

[*********]

I think you make my point. If a group believes in a divine messiah (a concept unknown in Judaism), and they claim (rightly) not only to be "ethnic" Jews, but further claim that their religion is Judaism, then they lay claim to obliterating the Jewish faith in the process.

 

And this is exactly why Jews are so troubled by the use of the term.

 

Don't you see that?

 

Bill

 

Bill, I don't understand. If there were Jews in Jesus' time that accepted him as the Messiah, which the New Testament clearly indicates that there were, then how could the concept of a divine messiah be unknown in Judaism? No snark, just trying to understand what you're saying.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Has the name Monte Judah come up at all with your MIL? Does your MIL call herself a "Sabbath Keeper?" If so, I'd love to compare notes with you on this stuff.

 

 

OMG, yes! Monte Judah....don't get me started!! I live in OKlahoma and he slings his snake oil from Norman.

 

 

Grrr! I think that he was the one who made all of those "prophecies that God gave him" about the year 2000 then, when they didn't come true just never even addressed it!

 

"Time is the Enemy of the False Prophet!" I don't know who said it, but so true!

 

PM me, we can compare notes.

 

yes, she is a "Sabbath Keeper"

[Spy Car]

I totally do not understand how anyone is being obliterated.

 

Nobody is FORCING anyone to change their faith, language, etc.

 

If we want to discuss obliteration, try Residential Schools that First Nations children were FORCED into, their hair cut, their language forbidden, their culture attempted to be wiped out, with a frightening degree of success.

 

People calling themselves Messianic Jews are not obliterating anyone.

 

Because if you practice Christianity and you claim your religion is Judaism ("completed", Messianic, or otherwise) you are saying traditional Judaism is inauthentic.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Bill, I don't understand. If there were Jews in Jesus' time that accepted him as the Messiah, which the New Testament clearly indicates that there were, then how could the concept of a divine messiah be unknown in Judaism? No snark, just trying to understand what you're saying.

 

That is why faith traditions split. What is orthodoxy in one community is heretical in another.

 

Even in the early period of cleavage there were (from my understanding) a great many Jewish followers of Jesus who saw him as a great Rebbe, but not as a divine being.

 

But the Orthodox Jewish tradition is quite clear clear in their belief than the "anointed one" will be a human being and not a god. This is where Christianity and Judaism part ways.

 

Bill