Children and independence

[Julie in Monterey]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately...independence with my kids. My oldest just turned 9 and she is beginning to branch out a bit on her own. Just this past year she started going to the bathroom by herself (at the library or Costco) which was a big step. Slowly, my husband and I have been nudging her on the path to more independence. She's begun to ride her bike to a friend's home with her younger sister 3 blocks away (a route we've gone a million times as a family). I've dropped her off at the library a few times.

 

I already had so much independence at her age when I was young. It really allowed me to stretch my wings...to discover. Many of my friends have a hard time with this issue. At some point we need to trust our children to make good choices. At what age is this? I'm just wondering what kind of impact hovering over our children will have upon them as a generation. Will they learn as easily to "trust their guts" or will they not pay attention because their parents do it for them? Are we creating children who need to be constantly entertained because they don't spend all of those hours outdoors exploring that we did? What are the long term ramifications of being under constant supervision?

 

Is it like this everywhere or just urban communities? I live on the coast of central California in a town of 14,000. Do kids still roam about in the country? I grew up half my life in rural Arkansas and we came in when it got dark. The other half, I lived in Phoenix and we came in when the street lights came on. At any given time, my parents figured we were either playing in the street(or in the woods in Arkansas) or at one of 4 or 5 houses. Do kids still do this? What's changed? There has always been crime, etc. Do we hear more of it or is it really worse?

 

Just really rambling here and thinking out loud (on the computer). I want my kiddos to grow up strong, safe and free to discover. Heck, they have never been out of my sight in the woods. How can I work on this? What do you do? Thoughts? Ideas? Insights?

 

Julie in Monterey

[Laura Corin]

We live in a village of 100 houses. My boys can wander off, go to the public-access woodland (no rangers/marked paths). I tell them when to be back, usually by nightfall.

 

In the nearby town, Calvin goes where he wants, including after dark. Hobbes doesn't, because he's dippy and I don't trust him on roads.

 

I do think that this kind of independence is important.

 

Laura

[lgm]

Well, we're rural, but the unparented,criminal & mentally ill are here (gov't programs) as well as the unleashed attack dogs, so the parented kids don't roam. Even with an adult escort there are too many incidents. For ex. the high school cross-country team now has runners buddy up b/c of incidents, despite police patrol and coaches with them with walkie-talkies. We have to have our radar on in store parking lots as there are now large numbers of obviously nonworking adults hanging out. Predators are aggressive. Kids do learn to trust their gut very early in this environment, even walking next to a parent and they learn to put on the confident front.

 

For safe outdoor exploration, people go in groups if they don't own large properties in areas away from the towns. Scouting is good...backcountry trips let the kids relax. Many kids are in karate or self-defense classes so they can handle the perps at school.

 

What's changed? imho many folks not raised in a religion to obey 'thou shalt not kill' and many not raised to respect other people's boundaries. And there are many mentally ill.

[Carrie12345]

It definitely depends on the location, imo.

I spent my summers traipsing through the woods from the age of 6, checking in for lunch and dinner. At home, I wandered the town from the soccer fields to the parks to the local pizza parlor at age 12 (and I walked to and from school from kindergarten to high school graduation).

 

As an adult, I've lived in cities where I would never allow my kids out of my site, and I've lived in an apartment complex where I wouldn't let them go any farther than the end of our building.

 

Now we're semi-rural. My oldest 3 can play in the yard unsupervised. They can also play on the playground *together* while I'm inside the building next door. That's about it. With traffic so light on most of our roads, nobody would notice if anything were to happen.

 

I hate that my kids don't have the kind of freedom I did. I do my best to give them as much independence as possible, but location plays an enormous part in my decisions.

[lgm]

I live near the metro NY area. After 9/11, many urban folks moved here, bringing the parenting practice of letting the kids run the street. The drug trade came with them. So did crime.

 

Also, the law has moved the mentally ill and emotionally disturbed out of specialized facilties and into the general populace. Group homes, fully included public school classes.

 

Yes, we are looking to sell!!

[lgm]

I see. We've got two group homes in my neighborhood for the mentally handicapped, tho yours may be of the more "dangerous" type. They plan on buying a third home. A few neighbors freaked out, but they've been excellent neighbors the past few years. Having house parents seems to make them happier, and I suppose its cheaper, than being in a state facility. We're getting ready to sell, too. (ironically, moving to your state), but it has nothing to do with the group homes. I much prefer them to my neighbor with a large Confederate flag in his yard.

 

The group home is fine here, nice folks and good supervision. The whole rest of the shebang..the inner city that wants to intrude on my life, take from the community rather than contribute, destroy the rule of law, and ruin the education of the nonurban public students here in the name of 'equality' is what I wish not to be around and contribute to.

 

I don't mean to imply that a religion is necessary. I am thinking that less people on a population percentage basis are religious in America compared to fifty years ago, so less are exposed to the idea of settling differences w/o hurting others physically or killing.

[Garga]

I read a book Protecting the Gift about how to teach your kids to be safe (like how to recognize a predator, gun safety, etc.)

 

The book wasn't written to be scary. It just gave practical advice. However, the author did state that sexual abuse is increasing and here's why he said it is:

 

When someone is sexually abused, then it's likely they'll grow up and abuse someone else. An adult male who is going to sexually abuse someone, usually abuses more than one person. So, the first adult abuses 5 kids (let's say.) Then 2 or 3 of those kids each abuse 5 kids. (that's now 10-15 abused kids.) Then they go on to abuse... and it just grows.

 

And the population of the world is growing at an amazing rate...so yes. I think that the dangers really are growing. Now, I'm not going to cower about it...but I don't think it's just a matter of it being reported more than usual. I think the rates really are growing.

[Scarlett]

 

Is it like this everywhere or just urban communities? I live on the coast of central California in a town of 14,000. Do kids still roam about in the country? I grew up half my life in rural Arkansas and we came in when it got dark. The other half, I lived in Phoenix and we came in when the street lights came on. At any given time, my parents figured we were either playing in the street(or in the woods in Arkansas) or at one of 4 or 5 houses. Do kids still do this? What's changed? There has always been crime, etc. Do we hear more of it or is it really worse?

 

My kid roams a bit. Arkansas family here (pm me and tell me what part of rural AR you grew up in if you want). My ds9 is an only child and I admit to worrying a little when he roams a lone, but snakes and wild dogs factor into that as much as a possible sex offender does. Now when he takes off with the two neighbor siblings, 11 yo girl and another boy 9 I feel ok. They don't go too far---usually with in hollerin' distance. :D

 

I worry much more about him going into a neighbor's house. I fine with the above mentioned neighbors---we are close to their family--but I tell him he is not allowed to go into anyone else's house unless he asks me first. I always say no. LOL. I just can't trust what might be going on in there..weapons? R rated movies? Porn of some kind? And then as they get older you have to start worrying more about the boy/girl hormone thing.

 

As far as the other things you mentioned, ds has been going to the bathroom at most public places alone for at least 2 years. I let him go look at toys alone while I am shopping at Wal-Mart....probably a year at least of that.

 

Just really rambling here and thinking out loud (on the computer). I want my kiddos to grow up strong, safe and free to discover. Heck, they have never been out of my sight in the woods. How can I work on this? What do you do? Thoughts? Ideas? Insights?

 

Julie in Monterey

 

You have woods in your area? A town of only 14,000? Do you generally feel safe? I'd certainly let a 9 year old and siblings roam a bit. We did the same thing as you said when we were kids....playing outside until dark and certainly outside of holler'n distance. It was a town of 5,000 and it was 35 years ago. Yes, I do think things are worse, but I am trying to not let it dictate my parenting style.

[Cammie]

We live in a gated community in Bangalore. Kids roam, ride bikes, are in and out of neighbor houses until dark. It is wonderful not having to worry all the time, not having to escort them or drive them every time they want to see a friend. We are lucky that we have a large family (8 kids) of homeschoolers right next door so my son has hit the friend jackpot! My mom came for a vist and said that our neighborhood reminded her of US in the 1950's when kids just roamed around until the factory whistle blew and everyone went home for dinner! It did take me years to get over my anxiety of having kids out of my sight. My Indian friends probably still would say I am a little on the more protective/hovering side!

[camibami]

Woah, I'm a Cami, and also overseas, but not in Bangalore. In Korea.

 

Kids are far more free range here, and I have happily let mine go, too, thought it wasn't without some angst at first. We live in a military base, so of course they can walk to the store, etc on post. Your regular neighborhood stuff.

 

But Korean kids have far more freedom, and that took some getting used to! Just last night, we were in Jaechon for a gymnastics meet and all went to dinner a few blocks from the hotel at around 9 pm after a late practice. The kids ate and then the other moms gave them some money for ice cream. My girls wanted to go too, of course, but they speak almost no Korean. No matter, off they went. Us mothers sat and finished eating and drank some beer :D, and after an hour left and there were all the kids, playing in the street in front of the hotel (at 11 pm!).

 

I have started letting my oldest go wander around the shops and restaurants by herself while her big sister is at gym practice, if she has to come along for some reason. She doesn't speak much Korean, but has a fabulous time. Since everyone knows us in the area as the "foreigners who do gymnastics at the high school" I am confident that if anything happened, I would know in about 20 seconds.

[angela in ohio]

I think there is a difference between teaching dc to be independent and mature and wanting to let them roam free. I think the hyper-focus on "free time to run around" when I was young is what created a generation of slackers (and I count myself, as I spent my childhood and adolescence running around with few responsibilities and had a hard adjustment to adult life.) My great-grandparents didn't run free in the streets when they were young; they worked hard to help their families, they spent time with their parents, learning to be a responsible adult.

 

I think a lot of the current attitude problem in our country started when people moved to the suburbs in the 50s and started letting their dc run around and play constantly while mom cooked and cleaned and dad did all the yard work. I have no desire to replicate that. My dc spend plenty of time outside and on their own, but it's in work most of the time. We are teaching them to be mature, independent adults by modeling it, so they spend a lot of time with dh and I, working alongside us, rather than running with their friends. My 13 yo can cook a meal for company, my 11 yo can entertain a group of preschoolers with a baby on her hip, and my 7 yo dragged an entire tree that was cut down back to the burn pile. That is independence to me. :001_smile:

[cougarmom4]

My dh and I have thought a lot about this issue recently. Our oldest just turned 12, and just started at the public junior high school. I have struggled with how much I need to/ought to let the apron strings relax. I think in our world today we do need to be careful, but as you mentioned, if they don't have experiences with making their own decisions/learning to trust their instincts, what will happen when they suddenly are faced with serious situations?

 

We've been working on compiling a list of things that we want to train him to do and/or let him take on his own. Kind of looking for opportunities to let him feel independent, but within limits...gradually expanding those limits. For example, this summer I started having him run into the grocery store to get milk while I wait in the van with the rest of the gang (after showing him where it is, how we compare prices of brands, load it in the cart, pay, checking price & change, etc); we let him and a friend go to the community swimming pool (after being dropped off & setting a time to meet at the front entrance); he walks to our neighbor and gets his own haircut (having to tell her how it should be cut & taking care of payment--next step is having him call for the appointment). As for ages of 'roaming,' our kids (7, 10, 12) are free to roam our neighborhood...but the road connecting our neighborhood to others is kinda scary (cars drive kinda fast & there isn't a sidewalk & overgrown weeds on both sides), so only ds12 is allowed to walk down that street alone. (And even then, I worry...but I gotta let go!)

 

I read a great book, "The Parenting Breakthrough" by Merrilee Boyack. Most of her emphasis is on training your children to take care of themselves & learn how to work, so it may not be what you're looking for, but what I love is she has an amazing list of each age and suggestions for what they might be ready to do on their own. If you're interested, I'll type up the things she has listed (like ironing clothes, placing a long-distance call, shopping for own clothing, order something on the internet, fill the car with gas, go to movies without parent)...but basically she says to think through what types of things you want to train your children to do, decide what age you think they would be ready, and develop a plan--like a checklist, and each year you simply take the time to teach those things. I love this list because there are a lot of things I hadn't really thought of...and I don't want my kids to suddenly be going off to college and have to cram it all in the weekend before they leave. (It is written from an LDS perspective, so there is a bit of religion in there, just fyi).

 

I'll keep checking this thread, it's always helpful to hear new ideas...the older my kids get the more I realize I don't know how to deal with everything!

[Impish]

I think it depends on the individual child and location more than it does age. Some children are more mature at 9 than others are at 12. Some areas are just safer than others.

 

Diva has been allowed to go to the corner store on her own for over a year. She'll be 11 in Nov. Its a few blocks away, she knows to cross at the lights, etc. The worst potential is that she goes when the highschools are out (there are three nearby) and the store is a complete zoo.

 

That being said, the owner of the store knows us. Heck, he invited us to move into his condo that he was renting out because he trusts us to be good tenants! Unfortunately, he was charging more than we pay here, so not something we were going to do...but he asked me to put the word out to friends and see if anyone would be interested. So, I know when Diva goes, he keeps an eye on her, no matter the zoo of kids. He's always complimenting me on my children's behaviour, which is so nice to hear, lol!

[Garga]

I think there is a difference between teaching dc to be independent and mature and wanting to let them roam free. I think the hyper-focus on "free time to run around" when I was young is what created a generation of slackers (and I count myself, as I spent my childhood and adolescence running around with few responsibilities and had a hard adjustment to adult life.) My great-grandparents didn't run free in the streets when they were young; they worked hard to help their families, they spent time with their parents, learning to be a responsible adult.

 

I think a lot of the current attitude problem in our country started when people moved to the suburbs in the 50s and started letting their dc run around and play constantly while mom cooked and cleaned and dad did all the yard work. I have no desire to replicate that. My dc spend plenty of time outside and on their own, but it's in work most of the time. We are teaching them to be mature, independent adults by modeling it, so they spend a lot of time with dh and I, working alongside us, rather than running with their friends. My 13 yo can cook a meal for company, my 11 yo can entertain a group of preschoolers with a baby on her hip, and my 7 yo dragged an entire tree that was cut down back to the burn pile. That is independence to me. :001_smile:

 

Very interesting perspective. I'm gonna chew on that one for awhile.

[hornblower]

I am thinking that less people on a population percentage basis are religious in America compared to fifty years ago, so less are exposed to the idea of settling differences w/o hurting others physically or killing.

 

:svengo::svengo::svengo:

[hsmom3tn]

I struggle with this, too, especially with my girls. I know that things can happen to boys, too, but I can't help worrying more about the girls.

 

My DS just turned 12. He is allowed to walk or ride his bike around our neighborhood, but not too far. We live very close to the post office, so sometimes he goes up there to drop off a package for me. Sometimes he goes into the bank to make a deposit for me. He pumps the gas. I have sent him into a store by himself to buy one or two things. He mows the lawn by himself. He went to a water park in another state with some friends of ours a few times over the summer. Occasionally he stays home alone, for short periods of time. He's been doing things like this for the past year or so.

 

My girls are 9 (and a half... must not forget the half... LOL) and I will let them walk to the corner, but that's it. Our library has 2 parking lots connected by a bridge and my kids like to walk across the bridge, so sometimes I will park and let them go across the bridge and into the library to return books for me. I wouldn't let the girls do this alone, though. Their brother has to go with them. The girls have gone to homeschool classes/workshops that I have dropped them off for, but otherwise haven't done much without me.

 

We bowl in the homeschool bowling league every week, and there have been a few times that I have just dropped them off and not gone in with them. We have been bowling there for 5 years, and know most of the people, so I am comfortable doing this. Maybe in a few more years I'll be ready to give the girls a bit more independence, but I'm just not ready for that right now.

 

It also doesn't help for me to have a friend who is married to a police officer, who tells me some of the horror stories that her DH tells her. We live in a city with A LOT of crime. She is extremely protective of her boys (they are 9 and 11), and hardly ever lets them out of her sight. I can tell that she is judging me about the things that I let my DS do - sometimes she evens comes straight out and tells me that I shouldn't do it; but I think he is old enough to start learning more responsibility and being a bit more independent.

[Laura Corin]

 

I think a lot of the current attitude problem in our country started when people moved to the suburbs in the 50s and started letting their dc run around and play constantly while mom cooked and cleaned and dad did all the yard work.

 

He had to paint the fence, but he spent an awful lot of time fossicking about the neighbourhood with his mates.

 

Laura

[littlebug42]

I think there is a difference between teaching dc to be independent and mature and wanting to let them roam free. I think the hyper-focus on "free time to run around" when I was young is what created a generation of slackers (and I count myself, as I spent my childhood and adolescence running around with few responsibilities and had a hard adjustment to adult life.) My great-grandparents didn't run free in the streets when they were young; they worked hard to help their families, they spent time with their parents, learning to be a responsible adult.

 

I think a lot of the current attitude problem in our country started when people moved to the suburbs in the 50s and started letting their dc run around and play constantly while mom cooked and cleaned and dad did all the yard work. I have no desire to replicate that. My dc spend plenty of time outside and on their own, but it's in work most of the time. We are teaching them to be mature, independent adults by modeling it, so they spend a lot of time with dh and I, working alongside us, rather than running with their friends. My 13 yo can cook a meal for company, my 11 yo can entertain a group of preschoolers with a baby on her hip, and my 7 yo dragged an entire tree that was cut down back to the burn pile. That is independence to me. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

 

I was a very "free range" kid when I was growing up and I don't believe it did me any favors. I certainly learned how to make decisions but I almost always made the wrong ones and while I learned my lessons, they were very hard fought, painful and many, emotionally scarring. I followed the rules, home by dark/curfew, Mom knew who I was with, etc but she never knew what we were doing and there was the problem. I do not think it is necessary for my children to learn these lessons in the same ways in order to be responsible, decisive adults.

[Danestress]

I think the question for me is how 'free' kids should be during the actual free time they have. I guess there are different types of freedom. My children, to the extent they have free time, are not "free" to play video games, watch tv, or hang out at the mall. But I do want them to have some of the freedom I had to explore the woods and trails around our home.

 

I agree with you that it benefits kids greatly to be part of a "team" and that the family team has work to do. But I want my children to also know how to play. I want them to enjoy time that is entirely self-directed. I also want them to be safe. There is some tension there.

[Julie in Monterey]

Wow! I love hearing from you all. That is the beauty of these boards..I'm able to get perspectives from all areas (of the world and country) and from different parenting philosophies. I love it! I've got two books on my list to take a look at now.

 

I'm going to mull over this info you kind people have provided me. I think I fall somewhere in the middle about "roaming". I agree that it isn't always the best thing to be able to roam the streets/woods. My sister and I did get into some pretty sketchy situations but we did figure them out. Not sure if we told our mom or not. I did grow up in a home that the children did a fair amount of "work", we always cleaned house on the weekends with our parents, washed our own clothes, cooked most dinners by around age 10 and 12 (my sister), and had the responsibility of the yard. So...I'm thinking for us, keep up those life skills, teach them to be "street smart" and "country smart", and gradually let go and foster that independence.

 

I guess I'm hoping for the best of both worlds,...grow responsible, independent children who know how to be alone, how to stay safe and also let them "discover" an area for themselves. I think the root of my issues with this stem from wanting them to be able to discover nature on their own terms without me over their shoulder. Some of my most treasured memories as a child are being outdoors with my sister or alone exploring and playing in the woods. Hmmm...lots to think about.

 

Thanks again for all of your input!!!!!!!

 

Julie in Monterey

[smrtmama]

I don't mean to imply that a religion is necessary. I am thinking that less people on a population percentage basis are religious in America compared to fifty years ago, so less are exposed to the idea of settling differences w/o hurting others physically or killing.

 

:001_huh:

 

I think the idea of not hurting or killing people is widespread, not something that is religiously inspired, and religion doesn't take the violence out of communities (history has shown us that). My police officer husband deals with gang violence every day -- except Sunday, when most of the gangbangers are in church w/ their grannies. It's parental involvement and decent upbringing that teach children nonviolence means of settling differences, and those ideals are secular, too.