Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Washington Post: Â "Nine days later [than the agreeing to a Cout Settlement not to engage in public prayer, admitting liabliity and agreeing to discontinue violating the student plaintiff's religious freedom] , Principal Lay asked athletic director Robert Freeman to lead a prayer at the beginning of a luncheon at Pace High School. Â http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/09/say_grace_go_to_jail.html?hpid=talkbox1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 CNN: Â "But on January 28, "Lay asked Freeman to offer a prayer of blessing during a school-day luncheon for the dedication of a new field house at Pace High School," according to court documents". Â http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/18/florida.school.prayer/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 There are also reports taking back a mis-reporting by Associated Press that the event took place at a church. That reporting was incorrect. The event took place at a public high school during school hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 (edited) the event was for adults -- and not for students -- it fell into a different category and was exempted from the types of school-sponsored activities in which prayer was expressly forbidden. Â The event was not exclusively for adults, and included students/children, faculty and members of the community. Â One tires of the misinformation being spread around this case. Edited September 19, 2009 by Spy Car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Here is the article in the paper local to the area (North West Fl) http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/large-20676-administrators-pensacola.html  The judge chastised them for bad judgment, questioned whether one ever intended to comply with the original order and found them not guilty. The verdict seems to have been based on the argument that they didn't know students were present and prayed before the meal out of habit. By the way, Pace is a tiny town with about 7000 people.  It was during the dedication of the field house and students were probably present - it is a small town and a small school - they would have known and knew better. But in a small town in the south, you are going to get a judge to convict the high school principal and the football coach for something like this unless they did it in the cafeteria at lunch time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Here is the article in the paper local to the area (North West Fl) http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/large-20676-administrators-pensacola.html The judge chastised them for bad judgment, questioned whether one ever intended to comply with the original order and found them not guilty. The verdict seems to have been based on the argument that they didn't know students were present and prayed before the meal out of habit. By the way, Pace is a tiny town with about 7000 people.  It was during the dedication of the field house and students were probably present - it is a small town and a small school - they would have known and knew better. But in a small town in the south, you are going to get a judge to convict the high school principal and the football coach for something like this unless they did it in the cafeteria at lunch time.  The Judge "bought" the argument (advanced by his attorney) that Principle Lay "forgot" he had a Court Order prohibiting him from promoting public prayer. Say what?  And Principle Lay is on record saying he was not doing to be stopped by the court settlement. This is a travesty of justice.  I think in a small town in the South you'll get justice when hell freezes over.  It's appalling!  Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 The Judge "bought" the argument (advanced by his attorney) that Principle Lay "forgot" he had a Court Order prohibiting him from promoting public prayer. Say what? And Principle Lay is on record saying he was not doing to be stopped by the court settlement. This is a travesty of justice.  I think in a small town in the South you'll get justice when hell freezes over.  It's appalling!  Bill  Oh yeah - the local paper has such great detail. You can clearly see the nuances that cnn left out. And when did "I Forgot" become a valid defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Oh yeah - the local paper has such great detail. You can clearly see the nuances that cnn left out. And when did "I Forgot" become a valid defense? Â And how do you "forget" a Court Order that is nine days old??? Â Included in the linked article is testimony of a member of the school-board that students were present at the event at the time of the prayer. And that she was shocked as it went against the settlement reached in Court. Â There was no justice here. Â Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009  You may think it's OK. But some of his students felt strongly otherwise. Strongly enough to go to Court to stop him.  It is a grave offense to abuse authority in the way this man has (repeatedly). It is dishonorable and illegal.  Bill  I didn't say it was OK. In my original post I even said he should lose his job but I could never accept a PRISON SENTENCE for this. And at the heart of the matter, for me, is our tendency to get so offended over everything that we sue everyone for everything. And maybe it's because I am living in a new culture where people from all different religions live side by side...not in perfect harmony...but without trying to force the other one to STOP being what they are.  On one single street you will see a christian church, a mosque, a buddhist temple, a hindu temple, etc. You will hear calls to prayer, see altar-type things with offerings to buddha sitting outside as you pass by homes and businesses, religious festivals abound and block traffic all the time, businesses and schools are closed for various religious holidays and no one gets upset. People wear whatever religious paraphanelia and clothing they want wherever they want and no one bats an eye.  I see police officers, paid for with everyone's tax dollars, stop what they are doing and get out their prayer mats when the call to prayer is made and no one sues the police department because they are praying on tax dollar hours.  No one here is suing to have all the altars to buddha in public places taken down (and no one defaces them either like you read about people defacing nativity scenes in the U.S.)...they wouldn't dare. It would be so disrespectful. No one is suing to have the muslim public calls to prayer banned.  This doesn't mean that all the groups are perfect and love each other perfectly. They do not and there are social issues between them. But they do respect everyone's right to their religion and do not try to stop each other from expressing that wherever they feel led. And that is the difference between "freedom OF religion" and "freedom FROM religion".  I would rather learn to live peaceably among all the other religions and expression of those religions than live in a religious vacuum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Â But they do respect everyone's right to their religion and do not try to stop each other from expressing that wherever they feel led. And that is the difference between "freedom OF religion" and "freedom FROM religion". Â I would rather learn to live peaceably among all the other religions and expression of those religions than live in a religious vacuum. Â I believe in freedom of religion but I do not believe that someone in authority such as a principal has the right to impose his religion on those not in authority such as students in the public realm of government run facilities such as public schools. Â What if he had led a prayer to Allah? Would that be ok with you? (I am not against Islam just for the record.) He is free to be himself but not to impose his religion on those he is in charge of IMHO. Teacher led prayer in schools, ten commandments posted in judicial courts, etc. really puts us at risk for theocracy which I do not want. I thank God we have separation of religion and state. If we allow religion into our government then we risk losing freedom of religion IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I'm confused. And not being sarcastic or snarky at all. I thought that religion was not to be a part of public school, period in the States? Can someone explain please? I don't get if its a public school why they would need to be having court orders in the first place.  Second, if you're in a position of power and authority, as a principal would be, and leading a public prayer, its a far different animal than someone quietly blessing their own meal. You don't need to be heard throughout the room to say your blessing aloud.  This just seems another case of 'one person's rights end where another's begin'. All people of all faith have the right to worship...but others have the right not to witnessing you doing so.  I didn't see where anyone answered your questions, so I'll take a stab.  Religion is not banned from public schools or any other venue in the US. However, the govt may not establish any religion. Numerous courts have found that neither teachers nor students give up their first amendment rights when they enter the school door; however, they have to walk a fine line to avoid infringing upon the rights of others. Teachers and other employees, as govt employees, cannot take actions that seem to impose their religion on students. That is why teacher or administrator-led prayer is forbidden under many circumstances in school; but student-led prayer is permissible in most circumstances.  There is no constitutional right to avoid witnessing others exercising their religion in school or elsewhere. Our first amendment guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, and explicitly states that the govt may not interfere with the free exercise of religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I believe in freedom of religion but I do not believe that someone in authority such as a principal has the right to impose his religion on those not in authority such as students in the public realm of government run facilities such as public schools. Â What if he had led a prayer to Allah? Would that be ok with you? (I am not against Islam just for the record.) He is free to be himself but not to impose his religion on those he is in charge of IMHO. Teacher led prayer in schools, ten commandments posted in judicial courts, etc. really puts us at risk for theocracy which I do not want. I thank God we have separation of religion and state. If we allow religion into our government then we risk losing freedom of religion IMHO. Â If it was a luncheon for adults and the adults consented, then no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 (edited) I believe in freedom of religion but I do not believe that someone in authority such as a principal has the right to impose his religion on those not in authority such as students in the public realm of government run facilities such as public schools. I guess I don't consider what he did "imposing" his religion on the students as much as expressing his religious beliefs in front of them. They were not FORCED to pray WITH him. Yes, they HEARD him pray but no one held a gun to their head and said pray or else. So they heard someone pray in front of them...big deal. If they didn't want to listen to the prayer they could have just ignored it and continued their conversations as if he was not praying or they could have left the room. They had choices too. They were not forced to sit and listen. And they weren't forced to repeat the prayer. They heard someone else pray, that's it. It's no different than my kids HEARING foul language from teenagers at the mall where we shop. I don't agree with it but they have the right to free speech so I can deal with it or leave. Â Â What if he had led a prayer to Allah? Would that be ok with you? Yes. that would be fine with me because if I don't want to listen to the prayer I can just leave the room OR I can acknowledge that this person is expressing gratitude in the most respectful way he knows how and I can choose to appreciate the sentiments behind the words even if I don't agree witht he mode of delivery and let it go at that. They are just WORDS. People act like if someone prays in front of you, you might catch some dreaded, fatal disease! Â ten commandments posted in judicial courts, etc. really puts us at risk for theocracy which I do not want. Really? "Don't steal. Don't kill. Don't lie." I don't understand how having words like that on a wall puts us at risk of anything. But giant billboards of half-naked Victoria's Secret models are OK? Wow, we really need to rethink our priorities. Â . Edited September 19, 2009 by Heather in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 All the news reports I've read say the event was at the Public High School and not a church and was a "school event".  If people want to go to a non-school event after school hours at a church to pray, who'd have a problem with that?  A school event at a church, with prayer? At a school with a Court Decree against its administrators where there is prayer? Big problem.  But where do you get this was at a church? Ever thing I've read said this was a luncheon at school. If that is the case, it is wrong, no?  Bill  http://www.pnj.com/article/20090917/NEWS01/909170317&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL  The Pensacola News Journal reported late Thursday that after a full day of testimony, Judge M. Case Rodgers said the prayer at a field house dedication during the school day that was held on church property was spontaneous, and there was seemingly no intent to violate the order. Lay could have faced up to six months in jail and $5,000 each in fines if the judge had ruled differently.   That was on the Washington's Post's web site, you can use the link if you'd like. It was held ON CHURCH PROPERTY.  I'll concede, though, it was during school hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 http://www.pnj.com/article/20090917/NEWS01/909170317&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSELÂ Â Â That was on the Washington's Post's web site, you can use the link if you'd like. It was held ON CHURCH PROPERTY. Â I'll concede, though, it was during school hours. Â And people are excused for short periods during the school day, still receiving salary, to attend religious funerals, Ash Wednesday, and other such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 And people are excused for short periods during the school day, still receiving salary, to attend religious funerals, Ash Wednesday, and other such. Â And in my public school employee's union, we got "duty-free" lunch periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 (edited) http://www.pnj.com/article/20090917/NEWS01/909170317&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSELÂ Â Â That was on the Washington's Post's web site, you can use the link if you'd like. It was held ON CHURCH PROPERTY. Â I'll concede, though, it was during school hours. Â This is at variance with the court reports and is likely a repeated (admitted) mistake in an AP report. Â The ceremony, from all credible reports, was on school (not church) property. Edited September 19, 2009 by Spy Car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I didn't say it was OK. In my original post I even said he should lose his job but I could never accept a PRISON SENTENCE for this. Â I agree, He should lose his job, and he should not go to PRISON. He should go to JAIL for Contempt of Court. Maybe a long weekend, maybe for a week or two depending how contrite he is. But prison? No. Â Â And at the heart of the matter, for me, is our tendency to get so offended over everything that we sue everyone for everything. And maybe it's because I am living in a new culture where people from all different religions live side by side...not in perfect harmony...but without trying to force the other one to STOP being what they are. Â No one is asking the Principle to stop being who he is. They are demanding he stop imposing his beliefs on others, who have objected to his actions in the past and successfully sued in court to be allowed to be themselves. Â On one single street you will see a christian church, a mosque, a buddhist temple, a hindu temple, etc. You will hear calls to prayer, see altar-type things with offerings to buddha sitting outside as you pass by homes and businesses, religious festivals abound and block traffic all the time, businesses and schools are closed for various religious holidays and no one gets upset. People wear whatever religious paraphanelia and clothing they want wherever they want and no one bats an eye. Â Who gets upset about various faiths having churches, mosques, temples, or other houses of worship here? Â Religious freedom is guaranteed in this nation. Thankfully so. Â But you can't use your authority to force your faith on another, especially when they have objected, and prevailed in Court. Â When such things happen is is a moral wrong. Â Freedom of religion includes not having a school principle forcing his faith on a child. Â Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I guess I don't consider what he did "imposing" his religion on the students as much as expressing his religious beliefs in front of them. They were not FORCED to pray WITH him. Yes, they HEARD him pray but no one held a gun to their head and said pray or else. So they heard someone pray in front of them...big deal. If they didn't want to listen to the prayer they could have just ignored it and continued their conversations as if he was not praying or they could have left the room. They had choices too. They were not forced to sit and listen. And they weren't forced to repeat the prayer. They heard someone else pray, that's it. It's no different than my kids HEARING foul language from teenagers at the mall where we shop. I don't agree with it but they have the right to free speech so I can deal with it or leave. Yes. that would be fine with me because if I don't want to listen to the prayer I can just leave the room OR I can acknowledge that this person is expressing gratitude in the most respectful way he knows how and I can choose to appreciate the sentiments behind the words even if I don't agree witht he mode of delivery and let it go at that. They are just WORDS. People act like if someone prays in front of you, you might catch some dreaded, fatal disease!   Really? "Don't steal. Don't kill. Don't lie." I don't understand how having words like that on a wall puts us at risk of anything. But giant billboards of half-naked Victoria's Secret models are OK? Wow, we really need to rethink our priorities.  I do think it is imposing for a person in authority to pray in a government run facility since the participants whether they are children or adults may feel uncomfortable leaving during the prayer. If teachers are frequently espousing their religion, then students may feel that they need to go along with it in order to seek approval from the teachers. This is also much different than hearing foul language in a mall setting which is not a government venue. There is no captive audience so to speak in a mall setting whereas in a school setting there is a captive audience. Frankly, I find this example that you used not a good one IMHO, since I do not frequent malls and I do not like or condone foul language:).   I do not think I am going to catch a dreaded disease if someone prays in front of me. I just believe that the proper venue is everywhere else but government facilities especially for those who work for these government facilities. I rather like prayer;). I just do not want to see a theocracy in our country or to have someone else's idea of religion imposed on me.  In regards to the 10 commandments being posted in courtrooms, I do think it is imposing religion on those who are not in a position of authority as well. Not everyone abides by the 10 commandments such as adhering to the prohibition of worshiping other gods or on graven images and that does not make them bad persons. The U.S. is not a Christian nation and many of our founding fathers felt that way.  Lastly, the comparing of Victoria Secret billboards is disingenuous as well IMO. Public billboards are not government run facilities. I also find billboards such as that offensive, but it has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I agree, He should lose his job, and he should not go to PRISON. He should go to JAIL for Contempt of Court. Maybe a long weekend, maybe for a week or two depending how contrite he is. But prison? No.   No one is asking the Principle to stop being who he is. They are demanding he stop imposing his beliefs on others, who have objected to his actions in the past and successfully sued in court to be allowed to be themselves.    Who gets upset about various faiths having churches, mosques, temples, or other houses of worship here?  Religious freedom is guaranteed in this nation. Thankfully so.  But you can't use your authority to force your faith on another, especially when they have objected, and prevailed in Court.  When such things happen is is a moral wrong.  Freedom of religion includes not having a school principle forcing his faith on a child.  Bill  Remember Bill, the principal is your pal. :lol: I hope everyone takes this spell check moment in the light-hearted way it was intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Since when are prayers just words? Â Or it is prayers from those who have differing religious beliefs that are just words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I shall speculate that the residents of Pace, Florida are nowhere nearly so bent-out-of-shape about this topic as are posters on various message boards. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 But how does one reasonably obtain consent to this under these circumstances? Standing up and asking for a show of hands isn't good enough IMO. I seriously doubt he could get every single person in the room to agree to that (when asked anonymously). Â Why not ask for a moment of silence before the meal? I could live with that. I think most people could live with that. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Lastly, the comparing of Victoria Secret billboards is disingenuous as well IMO. Public billboards are not government run facilities. I also find billboards such as that offensive, but it has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Â I find it disingenuous that people believe it to be so honorable and in the best interest of the nation to sue to have the 10 commandments taken down but I have not heard of lawsuits banning Victoria's Secret billbords. Why are we so RABIDLY against one but find no fault with the other? Because one is located on government-owned property and the other is not? Seriously? So it isn't about the prayer or the billboard...it's about who owns the property where it takes place? :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Since when are prayers just words? Or it is prayers from those who have differing religious beliefs that are just words.  A person can CHOOSE to be highly offended if someone of a differing religion prays in front of them or they can CHOOSE to see them as just words and not a "hex" placed upon you and let it go for goodness sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I find it disingenuous that people believe it to be so honorable and in the best interest of the nation to sue to have the 10 commandments taken down but I have not heard of lawsuits banning Victoria's Secret billbords. Why are we so RABIDLY against one but find no fault with the other? Because one is located on government-owned property and the other is not? Seriously? So it isn't about the prayer or the billboard...it's about who owns the property where it takes place? :001_huh: Â We're against the STATE putting up a sign in a courthouse that says, among other things, thou shalt have no other gods before me. If someone wants to rent a billboard and put the ten commandments on it, that's fine. I've seen many religious billboards as well as Victoria's secret billboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 I do think it is imposing for a person in authority to pray in a government run facility since the participants whether they are children or adults may feel uncomfortable leaving during the prayer. If teachers are frequently espousing their religion, then students may feel that they need to go along with it in order to seek approval from the teachers. This is also much different than hearing foul language in a mall setting which is not a government venue. There is no captive audience so to speak in a mall setting whereas in a school setting there is a captive audience. Â Â If you think that teenagers are the least bit intimidated by their teachers or would hesitate to speak their mind about this topic (or any topic really) then you have not been inside a public high school in a while. I taught high school for over a decade and teens these days are anything but shrinking violets. You can't even coerce a teen into doing their homework assignment much less coerce them to pray if they don't want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 A person can CHOOSE to be highly offended if someone of a differing religion prays in front of them or they can CHOOSE to see them as just words and not a "hex" placed upon you and let it go for goodness sake. Â So you choose to see prayers from a religion other than yours as just words? Is that what you are saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 So you choose to see prayers from a religion other than yours as just words? Is that what you are saying? Â nice try. I have not said what I choose to do in seeing these as just words versus prayers. I merely pointed out what SOME may choose to do (you know, in an effort to not walk around offended all the time). But I suppose they could choose to sue people instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 nice try. I have not said what I choose to do in seeing these as just words versus prayers. I merely pointed out what SOME may choose to do (you know, in an effort to not walk around offended all the time). But I suppose they could choose to sue people instead. Â Thanks for the sarcasm. Â I'm done. Â I'll pray the rosary for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Thanks for the sarcasm. I'm done.  I'll pray the rosary for you.  I appreciate it and I'll take it as prayers (and not just words). But don't try to twist my words. I don't appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 What if he had led a prayer to Allah? Would that be ok with you? Yes. that would be fine with me because if I don't want to listen to the prayer I can just leave the room OR I can acknowledge that this person is expressing gratitude in the most respectful way he knows how and I can choose to appreciate the sentiments behind the words even if I don't agree witht he mode of delivery and let it go at that. They are just WORDS. People act like if someone prays in front of you, you might catch some dreaded, fatal disease! Â I don't see how I twisted anyone's words. Â Â But it is pointless to defend myself. Â Every time I try to have a decent conversation, I get sacasm and nastiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 What if he had led a prayer to Allah? Would that be ok with you? Yes. that would be fine with me because if I don't want to listen to the prayer I can just leave the room OR I can acknowledge that this person is expressing gratitude in the most respectful way he knows how and I can choose to appreciate the sentiments behind the words even if I don't agree witht he mode of delivery and let it go at that. They are just WORDS. People act like if someone prays in front of you, you might catch some dreaded, fatal disease! I don't see how I twisted anyone's words.   But it is pointless to defend myself.  Every time I try to have a decent conversation, I get sacasm and nastiness. If it was held on Mosque property, no problem.  Apparently there are conflicting news articles as to where the event actually took place. So until someone can pull up a legal document... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 What if he had led a prayer to Allah? Would that be ok with you? Yes. that would be fine with me because if I don't want to listen to the prayer I can just leave the room OR I can acknowledge that this person is expressing gratitude in the most respectful way he knows how and I can choose to appreciate the sentiments behind the words even if I don't agree witht he mode of delivery and let it go at that. They are just WORDS. People act like if someone prays in front of you, you might catch some dreaded, fatal disease! I don't see how I twisted anyone's words.   But it is pointless to defend myself.  Every time I try to have a decent conversation, I get sacasm and nastiness.  Nope. You were definitely trying to bring the "Oh, you only feel that way about OTHER people's religions" angle in ... when really, all I've talked about in this thread is that we should just stop getting so darn OFFENDED by other people's religions. And if taking their prayers as just "words" helps that effort along then so be it. Maybe it would clear up some of the court dockets as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 If you think that teenagers are the least bit intimidated by their teachers or would hesitate to speak their mind about this topic (or any topic really) then you have not been inside a public high school in a while. I taught high school for over a decade and teens these days are anything but shrinking violets. You can't even coerce a teen into doing their homework assignment much less coerce them to pray if they don't want to. Â Most of your posts in this thread have come across as condescending and/or angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Most of your posts in this thread have come across as condescending and/or angry. Â Wow, you are just reading way too much into them then. Her posts have been excellent in comparing how other countries react in regards to freedom of religion vs how ours reacts with a call for freedom from religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 If you think that teenagers are the least bit intimidated by their teachers or would hesitate to speak their mind about this topic (or any topic really) then you have not been inside a public high school in a while. I taught high school for over a decade and teens these days are anything but shrinking violets. You can't even coerce a teen into doing their homework assignment much less coerce them to pray if they don't want to. I truly can't believe you are comparing homework assignments to religion. I'm also a certified teacher. While it is "cool" not to do homework assignments, in the South, it is NOT cool not to be a Christian. A teen who is not a Christian is very likely not to feel comfortable speaking out about religion; I know that I never did. Even as a teacher (adult), I feared that if I spoke out, I'd not only be ostracized but also eventually lose my job. Â Â There are plenty of impressionable teens. I was one of them. I was disappointed many times in my life as a young person by adults I thought were "cool" or decent. I doubt I was the only teen. Â There was a prayer at my (public) high school graduation. I didn't like that fact one bit. Do you think I said anything? No. And I know I wasn't the only one who felt that way. At the high school I graduated from, they still pray. They prayed on the football field at my niece's graduation this year (2009). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Wow, you are just reading way too much into them then. Her posts have been excellent in comparing how other countries react in regards to freedom of religion vs how ours reacts with a call for freedom from religion. Â Thank you for understanding. I am definitely NOT angry or trying to be condescending (one must be careful when reading tone INTO another's typed words). Â Again, let me reitirate that I do NOT think teachers or principals or really ANYONE for that matter should be trying to FORCE religion down anyone's throat. But I also don't believe that someone (from ANY religion) saying a prayer in front of you will damage your psyche or your self-esteem or your own personal religious beliefs (or lack thereof). Â And if it is distressful for you to hear another's prayers you might want to consider thinking of the prayer as just words if it helps you get by and keeps you from getting angry and indignant and filing lawsuits. Â And I have offered my example of what I see and hear every day in another country as proof positive that one who is a devout follower of one religion CAN endure the prayers of others on a DAILY basis without running to the courthouse and complaining. Â In fact, I think it enriches my life to be surrounded with people of different faiths and seeing them expressing their faith even if I don't agree with it. It is a rich cultural experience and not an OFFENSIVE one if you choose to see it that way. But if you'd rather spend your time being angry about it, that is your choice as well but I feel bad for you. Life is too short. Â Hope that clears it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Thank you for understanding. I am definitely NOT angry or trying to be condescending (one must be careful when reading tone INTO another's typed words). Â Again, let me reitirate that I do NOT think teachers or principals or really ANYONE for that matter should be trying to FORCE religion down anyone's throat. But I also don't believe that someone (from ANY religion) saying a prayer in front of you will damage your psyche or your self-esteem or your own personal religious beliefs (or lack thereof). Â And if it is distressful for you to hear another's prayers you might want to consider thinking of the prayer as just words if it helps you get by and keeps you from getting angry and indignant and filing lawsuits. Â And I have offered my example of what I see and hear every day in another country as proof positive that one who is a devout follower of one religion CAN endure the prayers of others on a DAILY basis without running to the courthouse and complaining. Â In fact, I think it enriches my life to be surrounded with people of different faiths and seeing them expressing their faith even if I don't agree with it. It is a rich cultural experience and not an OFFENSIVE one if you choose to see it that way. But if you'd rather spend your time being angry about it, that is your choice as well but I feel bad for you. Life is too short. Â Hope that clears it up. Beautiful post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 And I have offered my example of what I see and hear every day in another country as proof positive that one who is a devout follower of one religion CAN endure the prayers of others on a DAILY basis without running to the courthouse and complaining. Sure, but you're coming at this as a white American Christian who is comfortable in her own religion who has traveled, presumably as part of missionary work, to live in a majority-Muslim country. You are not an oppressed minority. Â All multicultural/multifaith societies are not the same, nor are the positions of each group within society the same. It might be better for you to imagine that it's a Jewish person (perhaps in the 1950s), or a Native American whose relatives were semi-forcibly converted, rather than an angry white middle aged atheist hippie sort, who does not wanting to be surrounded by a heavy-handed prayer to Jesus at work but might not feel comfortable speaking up. If the assumption is that this is a group prayer, that we (the organization) are making, that is different than one person crossing herself before eating. The context is very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Sure, but you're coming at this as a white American Christian who is comfortable in her own religion who has traveled, presumably as part of missionary work, to live in a majority-Muslim country. You are not an oppressed minority. All multicultural/multifaith societies are not the same, nor are the positions of each group within society the same. It might be better for you to imagine that it's a Jewish person (perhaps in the 1950s), or a Native American whose relatives were semi-forcibly converted, rather than an angry white middle aged atheist hippie sort, who does not wanting to be surrounded by a heavy-handed prayer to Jesus at work but might not feel comfortable speaking up. If the assumption is that this is a group prayer, that we (the organization) are making, that is different than one person crossing herself before eating. The context is very important.  Let me speak for myself as a Native American...we respect the faiths of others. No problem with someone offering a prayer in Thanksgiving. If anything, it is seen more as she sees it...we would rather see people expressing their faith. There is less discomfort in that than there is in worrying about what expressions of faith people are going to be screaming about being it is too "in their face". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 (edited) Thank you for understanding. I am definitely NOT angry or trying to be condescending (one must be careful when reading tone INTO another's typed words). Â I hope you are aware how much I appreciate your sweet personality, intellectual curiosity, and openness to the world. Nuff said. I like you. Â Again, let me reitirate that I do NOT think teachers or principals or really ANYONE for that matter should be trying to FORCE religion down anyone's throat. Â We agree. Â But I also don't believe that someone (from ANY religion) saying a prayer in front of you will damage your psyche or your self-esteem or your own personal religious beliefs (or lack thereof). Â Here I really think your missing the point. This Principal was clearly FORCING his religion down his student's throats. His students had to take him to Court to attempt to get him to knock it off. The Court found for the students. A settlement was entered into. The Principal had a legal duty to STOP forcing his religion on the kids. Â Nine days after the Consent Decree was issued he was back at it. His actions were unlawful. And disrespectful to the rights of his students to not have his religion forced upon them, and disrespectful to the Court and the law of the land. Â It's not so simple as someone saying a prayer in front of you. Â This man is a Principal of a public school and has created a hostile environment for his non-Christian students. His actions should not be condoned, or sluffed off as unharmful. It is harmful to young people to feel coerced by adults in authority. Â I'm sure there are ideologies you would be quite upset to find pushed on your own children. And while I'm sure it is difficult for you to understand, not everyone views right-wing fundamentalism as something to embrace in their lives, and strongly dislike having it forced upon themselves (or their children) by people in authority over them. Â In plain talk, I don't know you to be obtuse (anything but actually) but the analogies that you've offered are mind-boggling to me. And I wonder, coming from the point you do (namely that forcing religion on others, especially from a position of authority is not OK) that you seem to be excusing the Principals actions as if they are harmless. That it's no different than policemen praying in Malaysia. Or anyone saying a prayer in kindness. Â This is not that. Â And, respecting your intelligence and sensitivity, I'd expect you to acknowledge how wrongly this Principal behaved by forcing his faith on students in a hostile fashion. Â And if it is distressful for you to hear another's prayers you might want to consider thinking of the prayer as just words if it helps you get by and keeps you from getting angry and indignant and filing lawsuits. Â Heather here you are blaming the victims. The Principal created a religiously hostile environment. It was a situation that forced student into Court to stop this man. He promised to stop. And he lied. This is not an instance of a spontaneous prayer slipping out. This was part of an ongoing effort by this man to push his fundamentalist views on this students. Not OK. Â You know its not OK. Don't makes excuses for this. Please! Â And I have offered my example of what I see and hear every day in another country as proof positive that one who is a devout follower of one religion CAN endure the prayers of others on a DAILY basis without running to the courthouse and complaining. Â Yes, but you are comparing apples and peas. When you work or study under some one else's authority (especially when one is a minor) one deserves to have ones personal freedom of religion (including the right not to have another religion forced upon ones self) respected. Â Whether you choose to acknowledge it (or not) having an authority figure force their religious position on one feels very bad. Like an assault. It's not a small thing. It's a big deal. Â Just as I'm sure it would be a big deal if a young Christian person had a Principal ridicule their religious faith, or attempt to force an alien faith or ideological anti-faith on that young person. No one should have to endure this from a public school official. Â In fact, I think it enriches my life to be surrounded with people of different faiths and seeing them expressing their faith even if I don't agree with it. Â Me too. Â It is a rich cultural experience and not an OFFENSIVE one if you choose to see it that way. Â It can be very enriching to share in the cultural and religious experiences of those of other faiths and cultures. I certainly find it so in my own life. Â But a vital component to "enjoying" communing with other is that ones participation be of ones own volition and instigation. But having something forced on oneself that is unwelcomed by figures of authority can feel like spiritual-rape. Â But if you'd rather spend your time being angry about it, that is your choice as well but I feel bad for you. Life is too short. Â Hope that clears it up. Â I feel angry when I hear about students being treated the way they were in Florida. Very angry. That's just being straight-out honest. Â And this is from a person celebrating Rosh Hashanah today. And who not infrequently attends Mass at the Episcopal Church around the corner, and visits the Catholic Mass down the block, and attends the Orthodox (Greek) festival up the hill, and the Assyrian festival every year. Â And has studied the Qur'an and the Hadiths, and learned some Arabic, and memorized some verses. Â And isn't religious. But tries to learn form an appreciate peoples faiths. Â But we have to respect peoples freedom of conscious. I yours, and you mine. This Principal Lay didn't respect anyone, but his own grandiose and arrogant self. Â This violates the Golden Rule, and is hostile to the best of the traditions. Â Peace to you, Â Bill Edited September 20, 2009 by Spy Car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Here I really think your missing the point. This Principal was clearly FORCING his religion down his student's throats. His students had to take him to Court to attempt to get him to knock it off. The Court found for the students. A settlement was entered into. The Principal had a legal duty to STOP forcing his religion on the kids. Â This man is a Principal of a public school and has created a hostile environment for his non-Christian students. His actions should not be condoned, or sluffed off as unharmful. It is harmful to young people to feel coerced by adults in authority. Â I suppose I have veered from the small picture of this one case to a larger issue in my my mind. I have said that he should be fired for what he did but I said from my very first post that incarceration (of ANY kind ;)) was over the top. I know you and I do not see eye to eye on this point. Â But "hostile" seems like such a strong word to me. There were two students who filed a lawsuit. Did you read the articles about the overwhelming support of this man by students and parents? From what I have read he sounds like he is a good principal who has made some unfortunate choices that could be classified as insensitive...but hostile? I don't know, maybe it is the connotation of the word that bothers me...as if he were on a mission to deliberately make these two kids miserable. I can't see that. Â I see a man who feels so strongly about his faith that he defied a court order to do what he thought God would want him to do. You know there are examples of this kind of behavior throughout the Bible. We do not know what was going on inside this man's head. Maybe he felt called by God at that very instant to defy the court order. And I agree that he should be punished but I just really hesitat to use the word "hostile". Â As passionate as those two kids must have felt about NOT hearing prayers on a daily basis...this man obviously felt just as passionate that praying was the right thing for him to do. Can we not try to see both sides? Do we have to make him out to be a tyrant? A religious lunatic bent on converting others by the metaphorical sword? Take his job away since he won't follow the rules, but put him in jail? Like a common criminal? It is just so harsh and distasteful...like we are a mob with pitchforks and torches. Â In plain talk, I don't know you to be obtuse (anything but actually) but the analogies that you've offered are mind-boggling to me. And I wonder, coming from the point you do (namely that forcing religion on others, especially from a position of authority is not OK) that you seem to be excusing the Principals actions as if they are harmless. That it's no different than policemen praying in Malaysia. Or anyone saying a prayer in kindness. Â I have said he should be punished. But I also know that we all can also choose how to react to situations that we do not like. I am learning more about that on a daily basis (whether I want to or not!) as I face things here that I have never faced before. And daily I have to make decisions to be offended or accepting and with the exception of the TERRIBLE driving :tongue_smilie: , I am choosing to be accepting. And by accepting I do NOT mean that I condone everything (lest someone read into my words again) but I choose not to get angry or filled with righteous indignation and, as you well know, I am VERY MUCH in the minority in this country. Â I am thinking of today which is a day of celebration for the muslims in this country. As we were going to church this morning we passed throngs of muslims dressed in their very finest going to mosque to celebrate. As a middle class white woman from a very conservative christian background, I could have gotten all offended at the very notion of what they were going to be celebrating and made all kinds of negative comments to my family. You know us right wing fundamentalists can be SO close-minded. ;) Â But I didn't feel any of that. I felt a certain kind of kinship...we were off to worship and so were they and we smiled and waved as we passed each other and said good morning and have a nice day and even though I am technically part of an "oppressed" group in Malaysia, I felt at peace with it all. And it is so much better than filing lawsuits. Â And as I am off to dinner with my family while your half of the world slumbers, I leave you with a favorite saying of my dear grandmother (God rest her soul)....you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. :grouphug: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 (edited) I hope you are aware how much I appreciate your sweet personality, intellectual curiosity, and openness to the world. Nuff said. I like you.   We agree.    Here I really think your missing the point. This Principal was clearly FORCING his religion down his student's throats. His students had to take him to Court to attempt to get him to knock it off. The Court found for the students. A settlement was entered into. The Principal had a legal duty to STOP forcing his religion on the kids.  Nine days after the Consent Decree was issued he was back at it. His actions were unlawful. And disrespectful to the rights of his students to not have his religion forced upon them, and disrespectful to the Court and the law of the land.  It's not so simple as someone saying a prayer in front of you.  This man is a Principal of a public school and has created a hostile environment for his non-Christian students. His actions should not be condoned, or sluffed off as unharmful. It is harmful to young people to feel coerced by adults in authority.  I'm sure there are ideologies you would be quite upset to find pushed on your own children. And while I'm sure it is difficult for you to understand, not everyone views right-wing fundamentalism as something to embrace in their lives, and strongly dislike having it forced upon themselves (or their children) by people in authority over them.  In plain talk, I don't know you to be obtuse (anything but actually) but the analogies that you've offered are mind-boggling to me. And I wonder, coming from the point you do (namely that forcing religion on others, especially from a position of authority is not OK) that you seem to be excusing the Principals actions as if they are harmless. That it's no different than policemen praying in Malaysia. Or anyone saying a prayer in kindness.  This is not that.  And, respecting your intelligence and sensitivity, I'd expect you to acknowledge how wrongly this Principal behaved by forcing his faith on students in a hostile fashion.    Heather here you are blaming the victims. The Principal created a religiously hostile environment. It was a situation that forced student into Court to stop this man. He promised to stop. And he lied. This is not an instance of a spontaneous prayer slipping out. This was part of an ongoing effort by this man to push his fundamentalist views on this students. Not OK.  You know its not OK. Don't makes excuses for this. Please!    Yes, but you are comparing apples and peas. When you work or study under some one else's authority (especially when one is a minor) one deserves to have ones personal freedom of religion (including the right not to have another religion forced upon ones self) respected.  Whether you choose to acknowledge it (or not) having an authority figure force their religious position on one feels very bad. Like an assault. It's not a small thing. It's a big deal.  Just as I'm sure it would be a big deal if a young Christian person had a Principal ridicule their religious faith, or attempt to force an alien faith or ideological anti-faith on that young person. No one should have to endure this from a public school official.    Me too.    It can be very enriching to share in the cultural and religious experiences of those of other faiths and cultures. I certainly find it so in my own life.  But a vital component to "enjoying" communing with other is that ones participation be of ones own volition and instigation. But having something forced on oneself that is unwelcomed by figures of authority can feel like spiritual-rape.    I feel angry when I hear about students being treated the way they were in Florida. Very angry. That's just being straight-out honest.  And this is from a person celebrating Rosh Hashanah today. And who not infrequently attends Mass at the Episcopal Church around the corner, and visits the Catholic Mass down the block, and attends the Orthodox (Greek) festival up the hill, and the Assyrian festival every year.  And has studied the Qur'an and the Hadiths, and learned some Arabic, and memorized some verses.  And isn't religious. But tries to learn form an appreciate peoples faiths.  But we have to respect peoples freedom of conscious. I yours, and you mine. This Principal Lay didn't respect anyone, but his own grandiose and arrogant self.  This violates the Golden Rule, and is hostile to the best of the traditions.  Peace to you,  Bill  Nicely stated. We celebrated Rosh Hashanah with the blowing of the shofar at sunset this past Friday evening. Happy New Year everyone! Shana Tova! A new beginning -- may it be a good and sweet year to you all!  Heather, I personally am not trying to get you upset. I like you too! :001_smile: But, Bill has brought up a good point. I look at it as when I was in high school and was very impressionable. I ate up much of what my teachers taught and believed it -- without really thinking for myself what they were telling me. One teacher had me leaning towards a dangerous POV politically that really upset my family. But I believed more in my teacher's words than in what others were trying to tell me.  How great is the role of the teacher to young minds -- "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall inherit a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many ways. IF ANYONE DOES NOT STUMBLE IN WHAT HE SAYS, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well." (James 3:1-2 -- caps empasized by myself)  I do however beleive in student led gatherings to express their views or beliefs. I do not agree with what this man did -- it was coercive using his role as head of the school. His personal rights ended when he showed up for work that day. I don't mean to jump in here and put you in a corner. All we are saying is the dude had a chip on his shoulder from a religious POV. I don't think his battle should be yours. No one is arguing about other religions or countries... the OP you shared was the principal violating the judge's order. I admire where you come from as an administrator and your faith -- but maybe we all need to let this thread rest, kwim? :grouphug: Edited September 20, 2009 by tex-mex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Let me speak for myself as a Native American... Â Bill was pretty specific in his statement: or a Native American whose relatives were semi-forcibly convertedI'm a Native American. My grandmother was chief of our tribe until her death. However, I *do not* have any relatives who were converted (or that anyone attempted to convert) in this manner. I am from Oklahoma and I know many Native Americans whose parents and other close relatives were kidnapped from reservations and put in boarding schools in order to "save their souls" (oh yes, and take their mineral rights). They have much different feelings about it than I do and I respect that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 to STOP being what they are.[/b]Â Â Â Just because you don't lead a prayer in front of a group of people who may not hold your religious beliefs doesn't mean you stop being who you are. I'm surprised that you would even say that. No is is saying the man can't pray or that he has to stop being Christian. He simply can't lead prayers at school activities. I don't really get how you see that as having to stop being who he is. Â Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Bill was pretty specific in his statement:I'm a Native American. My grandmother was chief of our tribe until her death. However, I *do not* have any relatives who were converted (or that anyone attempted to convert) in this manner. I am from Oklahoma and I know many Native Americans whose parents and other close relatives were kidnapped from reservations and put in boarding schools in order to "save their souls" (oh yes, and take their mineral rights). They have much different feelings about it than I do and I respect that fact. The point was, there are some that are exactly in that spot that may feel that way and others that don't...let's not broadbrush, kwim? I'm Cherokee also and have family in Oklahoma as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Just because you don't lead a prayer in front of a group of people who may not hold your religious beliefs doesn't mean you stop being who you are. I'm surprised that you would even say that. No is is saying the man can't pray or that he has to stop being Christian. He simply can't lead prayers at school activities. I don't really get how you see that as having to stop being who he is. Tara  Well, you would need to read ALL of my words posted on this thread to understand where I am coming from...and maybe even then you still won't. But I stand by what I've said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 I look at it as when I was in high school and was very impressionable. I ate up much of what my teachers taught and believed it -- without really thinking for myself what they were telling me. One teacher had me leaning towards a dangerous POV politically that really upset my family. But I believed more in my teacher's words than in what others were trying to tell me. I understand. I was there myself in high school and college...a young woman devout in her beliefs and constantly ridiculed by teachers and professors who thought anyone who believed in the Bible was a fool. So I am looking at the situation from another angle but similar. Secular humanism is also a religion and it was shoved down my throat for years. But I chose to love my enemies and pray for those who persecuted me instead of making a huge deal out of it. Â All we are saying is the dude had a chip on his shoulder from a religious POV.I don't think I would call it a chip on his shoulder. Maybe just strong beliefs that he can't seem to reconcile with his career. Which is why I said he should be fired. But I still don't think he is a terrible person as he has been made out to be. Â I don't think his battle should be yours. I guess I just wish there didn't have to BE a battle. That's what makes me sad. :grouphug: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Heather, what would you do if your son's teachers or principal started leading a non-Christian prayer for their class every day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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