"I do what I want, too bad for you" trend

[Saille]

Oh, please! Let's put the responsibility for this squarely where it belongs - on the woman choosing to feed openly or not. The OP was lamenting the loss of consideration for others in our society.

 

The woman breastfeeding in complete disregard to whether it might be uncomfortable or create a negative effect in others is taking a very self centered position. She may be within her rights, but she is showing no kindness or caring to others who may be struggling with their own weaknesses.

 

You are not the only busy homeschooling farm mama up in here. I have no time to solve someone else's self-created crisis, particularly when it revolves around a natural necessity. Farm mamas are well aware of the silly behavior of people who eat meat and veggies all their lives, but dislike the smells, manual labor and general earthiness of farm life. That is EXACTLY how I feel about breastfeeding. Breasts were not created (regardless of how much men like them during sex) to excite anyone. Their sole purpose is to provide food to an infant, and that infant's right to eat whenever (s)he wants is protected in every federal building in this country. To the man who thinks I should prioritize his genitals over a mother's breast or an infant's tummy, I say he is testicularly challenged, and he should "man up". If that's tough for him, that's just fine. Challenges are difficult for. a. reason. I am not going to start up the slippery slope that ends with some woman who was walking home at night "deserving" to be raped, and that is EXACTLY where this line of reasoning leads.

 

To me, this is an example of people having way too much time on their hands, and too much self-interest to live. The most important fact about a hungry child being fed is NOT how it makes you feel.

[Impish]

Yes, I'm guilty of being the wavemaker in some cases. I got tired of being hurt time and time again by being expected to bow down to the crowd despite how I felt and/or what I needed. Why do some people expect that the wavemaker should be the one who tolerates the others with a fake smile on his face? If it isn't fair for the crowd to be that way, why should it be fair for the wavemaker?

 

Unfortunately, the wavemaker can become a loner. As much as I want a friend(s), I won't put myself in the position to be hurt, humiliated, and kicked down anymore.

I'll be your friend. Us surfers need to make waves :D:grouphug:

 

I personally find it humourous, if not down right ridiculous that the debate about 'covering up' when nursing in public rages on. I mean, have you SEEN billboards lately? Turned on the TV? There's so much more s*xually based content and boobs showing than a nursing mom could EVER compete with.

 

I never used a cover. Tried to, but the babies all pulled them off. Hot and sweaty under even the lightest of receiving blankets. So, I pulled my shirt down right to the baby's mouth, and cuddled them. I've had folks ask to see the baby, they were so unaware of what I was doing!

 

Your rights end where mine begin. Your right to not potentially be exposed to a half second flash of boob/nipple ends (and I'm talking at the max, I'm unaware of ANY time I flashed anything) where my baby's need to eat begins.

 

We're homeschoolers on this board, ppl. Talk about 'wave makers' and doing what's right for US, our children, without care of other folks kids, school boards, etc. Heck, there was an article someone linked recently talking about how we OWE the schools our children, in order to set example and help the other kids, and we, as involved parents would be a help to the school.

 

Perhaps we should line up to register our children, since wave making and putting our own needs and callings FIRST is such a bad thing.

[Orthodox6]

Why did this thread morph straight into the b-feeding warfare ?

 

The original point of the thread was very interesting. This other is "old stuff" recycled from other threads, no matter whether one be pro- or con-.

[Mandy in TN]

Oops - I very rarely comment on the boards and don't keep track of who says what, etc., so I don't know who is married to whom. I hope I didn't offend you. Sorry. No offense intended. I just meant that requiring women to cover up to prevent a man from possible sexual arousal is a slippery slope that I don't see Americans wanting to start down. And starting with breastfeeding moms isn't the right place. Seriously, does anyone see nursing moms flinging themselves around and I'm missing this somehow? I'm not talking about radical nursers. I'm talking about standard, run of the mill mom whose 6 month old needs a feeding. She's probably paranoid about being seen already without making her feel like she's the reason for the downfall of Western Civilization! lol

 

No offense taken and I totally agree with what you're saying as would my Muslim dh.;)

Mandy

[mrsrevmeg]

 

Men are wired differently and teenage males in particular typically have limited control over the biological response of arousal. Sometimes arousal happens even when they very much don’t want it to.

 

 

As a wife, daughter, sister, and the mother of three sons, I wouldn’t want another woman intentionally exposing herself to the men in my life just to prove that her breasts can be used to nurse especially while flatly denying the s*xual aspect of nudity.

 

 

 

 

 

I very much agree with what she said. When i was breastfeeding my children, I always felt it was the nice thing to do to take the time to consider the feelings of others around me. Yes, my child needed to eat, when they needed to eat. No, I did have to expose myself in order to meet that need.

 

This is not the only the only I have with the "i am going to do what I want, who cares what others think think" mentality. I really have issues with women who walk around dressed provocatively and then complain that "others should not be judgmental" or if it makes a man uncomfortable he should "deal with it or look away".

[Saille]

I have one more thing to say about this topic, and then I'm going to hope for a spin-off thread, which I think is needed.

 

There continue to be women in poverty who don't realize what a trap formula-feeding can be until their milk dries up. Women in third world countries are mixing formula with pestilential water for their children instead of giving them safe milk full of antibodies from their breasts. This is a health crisis, and it's one humans have created all on their own, because it was somehow more "modern" or posh to provide formula made by scientists from a nice tidy bottle than to deal with the messy, physical facts of being a lactating mammal. I am ashamed of us.

 

The "shock" of being confronted with a human breast (and we aren't hearing many actual stories of extreme exposure in this discussion) seems very contrived to me. Of all the things to worry about! How many people here are sponsoring or have sponsored an impoverished child? How can we honestly spend this much time focused on whether a nursing mother incites sexual desire, when it's clearly so important to encourage mothers to nurse? If I was pregnant and had not yet decided whether to nurse, discussions like this would scare me to death.

 

As an issue of priorities, I'd say "Eek! A booby" is a fail.

[Mandy in TN]

"For Women Only" is a great book by Shaunti Feldham about how men think and it addresses this "oogling" issue very well, imo. I learned a lot from it. Her information is garnered from surveys she gave men.

 

And, I'm absolutely pro-breastfeeding, but I'm also absolutely pro-modesty, respect and discretion, as well.

 

As for the other issues in the OP, all I can come up with is this, "every man did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 17:6b

 

Hey, was this the book that talked about men creating a mental rolladex of all the women that they see or have been with or something to that effect?

 

If so, this is exactly what I talk to my boys about. If they spend time looking at naked women/ s*xual images they may be setting themselves up to be in a position where no individual real woman can live up to the expectations or the image that lives in their mind.

 

Mandy

[HRAAB]

Why did this thread morph straight into the b-feeding warfare ?

 

The original point of the thread was very interesting. This other is "old stuff" recycled from other threads, no matter whether one be pro- or con-.

 

I think it was because of this comment in the OP:

 

"I saw the same thing in the breastfeeding thread a few weeks ago. The theme on there was, "I will show my breast, areola, nipple, wherever and whenever I want because my kid needs to eat right this very second." Even though half the population doesn't have breasts, (or breastfeeding ones) and it might make them uncomfortable. But, no....the bfeeding mom has no responsibility to them...just to her & baby's needs...screw what everyone else feels."

 

I actually thought the OP had a valid point which could lead to a worthwhile discussion until I got to this.

 

Janet

[mirth]

The "I do what I want, too bad for you" trend is especially alarming when judges take this attitude and the result is judicial activism.

[PineFarmMom]

I very much agree with what she said. When i was breastfeeding my children, I always felt it was the nice thing to do to take the time to consider the feelings of others around me. Yes, my child needed to eat, when they needed to eat. No, I did have to expose myself in order to meet that need.

 

 

 

:iagree: Courtesy can be used no matter what the issue.

[lionfamily1999]

Mote, plank. Don't look to lust.

 

Was it Basheba or David that was punished?

 

I think personal responsibility trumps social obligation any day. It's our own responsibility to be sure we don't get led into temptation, it's up to us to monitor what situations we are a part of. It's our job to be sure that we treat others the way we want to be treated.

 

Instead of worrying about people being so selfish as to not consider how hard it is for you... perhaps a better idea would be to monitor yourself, to see whose toes your grinding beneath your heels. If we were all a little more personally responsible, then we wouldn't have time to point to someone else and say, it's all YOUR fault that life stinks.

[Happy]

Why did this thread morph straight into the b-feeding warfare ?

 

The original point of the thread was very interesting. This other is "old stuff" recycled from other threads, no matter whether one be pro- or con-.

 

:iagree: The original question is an interesting one.

[Word Nerd]

Why did this thread morph straight into the b-feeding warfare ?

 

The original point of the thread was very interesting. This other is "old stuff" recycled from other threads, no matter whether one be pro- or con-.

 

For one, the OP used it as a prime example to illustrate her point.

[justamouse]

Actually, an appropriate comparison would be to ask if everyone who is alright with flashing nipples in public to bf would be alright with their teenage son having the top half of a playboy centerfold hanging on his bedroom wall.

 

Mandy

 

Those are two TOTALLY different things.

 

And if you have studied art history, you'd see pictures of the Madonna, beastfeeding, full breast exposed, nipple and all.

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

Ok, as I've read through the responses to my post, a few thoughts/clarifications/corrections.

 

 

I didn't plan to rehash old debates, but that's what happened...so after I clean the tomatoes off my face, here's my defense and personal perspective:

 

I'm an introvert myself. I like being alone. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to keep to themselves. I'm just alarmed at how many people seemed bothered by others simply trying to socialize with them. As if to say, "The nerve of them! Trying to talk to me.... just what were they thinking?" People talk to you because they are trying to be....FRIENDLY. They do not scope you out and say, "Oooh, that person wants to be alone. I'm going to plant myself down next to her and MAKE her talk to me." There are polite ways to show that you're not interested in making friends, and that's fine. Being rude or bashing those who are trying to be nice...not fine.

 

About the breastfeeding. I should have known to find a different example. My fault. I didn't expect the following insult. My comment was this:

I saw the same thing in the breastfeeding thread a few weeks ago. The theme on there was, "I will show my breast, areola, nipple, wherever and whenever I want because my kid needs to eat right this very second." Even though half the population doesn't have breasts, (or breastfeeding ones) and it might make them uncomfortable. But, no....the bfeeding mom has no responsibility to them...just to her & baby's needs...screw what everyone else feels.

and then another poster said this:

 

I know others have addressed this, but I just have to say this is a truly ignorant thing to say. I didn't even BF.

 

Well, I DID breastfeed. For 4 years. Not a world record, for sure, but I think I know a thing or two about it, and definitely not ignorant. My post was referring to mothers who literally walk around with their breasts hanging out so that their baby can feed as needed. Like it or not, this is offensive to people. I fed my babies on demand, I didn't always use a blanket or leave the room, but I was discreet. My babies didn't starve. It took maybe two seconds for them to latch on. Baby's happy, I'm clothed, no one is in danger of getting aroused or being uncomfortable or whatever. Why make waves when it isn't at all necessary?

 

Doing something just because you can isn't always the right thing to do. I just think people need to be more considerate of one another and take a second or two to think about other people's feelings now and then. And it's hard to raise children in a world where no one does this anymore.

 

Finally, I find it ironic that the same people who like to do whatever they want are the ones who are so bothered when I write whatever I want.

 

(maybe I am a wavemaker! Wow...who knew?) ;)

[OH_Homeschooler]

I'm feeling philosophical this morning.

 

I've noticed this on many threads on this board, but lately on the anti-social/introvert thread. There seems to be a recurring theme that, "I don't feel like talking to you...so I won't answer the phone, make small talk, be neighborly, etc..... Too bad if this hurts your feelings but I just don't feel like doing these things so deal with it." Meanwhile, the person being ignored feels bad because the introvert doesn't feel like making any sort of effort to live in society.

 

These are just my thoughts lately. It just makes me sad.

 

It makes me sad that you'd talk about how rude introverts are for not worrying about hurting others' feelings. Do you not see the irony? You're insulting an entire group of people here who posted in that thread (and the other threads you mentioned in the OP) without worrying about how that might make them feel.

 

Just feeling philosophical...perhaps what offends you shouldn't be at the center of everyone's world. Perhaps you should also learn to care about other people's feelings. Then maybe you have a right to feel "sad" about the state of our world.

[Penelope]

I have one more thing to say about this topic, and then I'm going to hope for a spin-off thread, which I think is needed.

 

There continue to be women in poverty who don't realize what a trap formula-feeding can be until their milk dries up. Women in third world countries are mixing formula with pestilential water for their children instead of giving them safe milk full of antibodies from their breasts. This is a health crisis, and it's one humans have created all on their own, because it was somehow more "modern" or posh to provide formula made by scientists from a nice tidy bottle than to deal with the messy, physical facts of being a lactating mammal. I am ashamed of us.

 

The "shock" of being confronted with a human breast (and we aren't hearing many actual stories of extreme exposure in this discussion) seems very contrived to me. Of all the things to worry about! How many people here are sponsoring or have sponsored an impoverished child? How can we honestly spend this much time focused on whether a nursing mother incites sexual desire, when it's clearly so important to encourage mothers to nurse? If I was pregnant and had not yet decided whether to nurse, discussions like this would scare me to death.

 

As an issue of priorities, I'd say "Eek! A booby" is a fail.

:iagree:

 

Thank you, thank you, for saying this.

 

What is truly important? One of the reasons more people even in our own country don't nurse, thereby increasing their baby's health risks and lowering the general health of our society, is fear of nursing in public and dealing with the ridiculous, ongoing societal taboo of breastfeeding. People need to get over their squeamishness. When I'm in public and have a nursing shirt, a sling, and my hand right on the top of my shirt ready to cover up anything "Just in case" and still have women hovering around me trying to usher me into a room, or turning their chairs around so they can't see me, it makes me feel...well, like they think I"m doing something shameful or wrong. And I have nursed several children already and am more immune to these things than I was as a new mom. It's horrible, really.

 

The OP mentioned consideration for others, and then mentioned it is different if someone is trying to "better society", or something like that. Well, breastfeeding in public IS bettering society. It doesn't mean we need to flash anyone, but the more women continue living their lives and breastfeeding whereever they happen to be, the more breastfeeding will seem normal and maybe we can finally have a generation of babies who are mostly fed the way nature intended.

[Penelope]

I always get confused by the talk about moms who breastfeed leaving their entire chest hanging out, flashing people, because, honestly, I have never, ever seen this outside of a mom's group where all of the moms were nursing and were being less careful about it (though I have to admit, I did not really want to be flashed in that situation, either ; I DO think it is polite to try to expose only what you need to, unless there are breastfeeding issues or the baby is a very young newborn. BUt that's only my preference).

[OH_Homeschooler]

Ok, as I've read through the responses to my post, a few thoughts/clarifications/corrections.

 

 

I didn't plan to rehash old debates, but that's what happened...

 

Yes, because you dug up those old debates and quoted them in the OP. What did you honestly expect to happen?

 

 

Well, I DID breastfeed. For 4 years. Not a world record, for sure, but I think I know a thing or two about it, and definitely not ignorant. My post was referring to mothers who literally walk around with their breasts hanging out so that their baby can feed as needed. Like it or not, this is offensive to people. I fed my babies on demand, I didn't always use a blanket or leave the room, but I was discreet. My babies didn't starve. It took maybe two seconds for them to latch on. Baby's happy, I'm clothed, no one is in danger of getting aroused or being uncomfortable or whatever. Why make waves when it isn't at all necessary?

 

OK, seriously? I have never in my life seen a mother "walking around with their breasts hanging out." If that's happening around you, and frequently, I agree that's obnoxious. If the women are not actually feeding a baby and just walking around Target with their "breasts hanging out" then I would think it's okay to call that woman on indecency charges. But I honestly find that whole scenario hard to swallow and not believable.

 

ETA: Posted at the same time as PP-glad to see I'm not the only one who finds that whole notion a little difficult to believe.

[lionfamily1999]

Well, I DID breastfeed. For 4 years. Not a world record, for sure, but I think I know a thing or two about it, and definitely not ignorant. My post was referring to mothers who literally walk around with their breasts hanging out so that their baby can feed as needed. Like it or not, this is offensive to people. I fed my babies on demand, I didn't always use a blanket or leave the room, but I was discreet. My babies didn't starve. It took maybe two seconds for them to latch on. Baby's happy, I'm clothed, no one is in danger of getting aroused or being uncomfortable or whatever. Why make waves when it isn't at all necessary?

 

Doing something just because you can isn't always the right thing to do. I just think people need to be more considerate of one another and take a second or two to think about other people's feelings now and then. And it's hard to raise children in a world where no one does this anymore.

 

Finally, I find it ironic that the same people who like to do whatever they want are the ones who are so bothered when I write whatever I want.

 

(maybe I am a wavemaker! Wow...who knew?) ;)

I'm sorry, what country are you talking about. Like an ego-centric American I assumed you were talking about the good ol' US of A (or maybe those other places like England or Canada ;) )... I have never, ever, seen a woman walking around topless just in case her baby got hungry, except on Nat'l Geographic, and those ladies were topless around the clock regardless.

 

I take your irony and toss it right back. You were rude. You implied that wanting to be alone, or not wanting to join in idle prattle was wrong. You implied that people that did not wish to be social butterflies were destroying society. I was pretty irritated by this (dare I say, offended).

 

People were bothered because you brought up topics you knew to be controversial, bfeeding, and you make hurtful remarks. Tossing the blame of the fall of society on everyone else's shoulders was wrong. People reacted because it was percieved as a bash on them or people they care about.

 

Again. Mote, plank. Personal responsibility. Avert your eyes. I have things I need to work on for myself. Everyone in society does. Wagging fingers doesn't do anything except make people cling tighter to the things they may need to work on. See also, THIS is why I don't socialize. If someone had said these things to me, in public, I would have been hard pressed to bite my tongue and walk away.

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

nevermind

[Orthodox6]

Gently please with non-nursers, even if you have to choke back your mean-spirited words. Women do not nurse for various reasons. Drop from shock now, but there even are women whom God fashioned with breasts so badly inverted that nursing is impossible, no matter what instrument of torture is applied in a futile attempt to remedy the problem. I tried, valiantly, with four children. Even the LLL woman understood that I was not a wicked, evil, perverted woman, and that nursing simply was not going to succeed on account of anatomical structure beyond human modification.

 

This entire subject sticks in my craw because of the nastiness exhibited from women-to-women. What happened to that mythology about women standing together to support each other ?!

 

It is hard to think well of us women as a group whenever I encounter such outlandish hostility (from either side of the issue).

[OH_Homeschooler]

Finally, I find it ironic that the same people who like to do whatever they want are the ones who are so bothered when I write whatever I want.

 

Wow, how did I miss this gem in my response? Clearly, you are admitting that you personally don't care how you might offend others. This means that you yourself are guilty of what you are so "sad" to see happening around you. Maybe you should stop complaining about the sad state of society until you can refrain from contributing to it.

[HRAAB]

 

Well, I DID breastfeed. For 4 years. Not a world record, for sure, but I think I know a thing or two about it, and definitely not ignorant. My post was referring to mothers who literally walk around with their breasts hanging out so that their baby can feed as needed. Like it or not, this is offensive to people. I fed my babies on demand, I didn't always use a blanket or leave the room, but I was discreet. My babies didn't starve. It took maybe two seconds for them to latch on. Baby's happy, I'm clothed, no one is in danger of getting aroused or being uncomfortable or whatever. Why make waves when it isn't at all necessary?

Where in the world do you live that women walk around with their breasts hanging out? That you speak of it like it is a common, everyday occurrence? I breastfed for a total of 12 years. I was around breastfeeding women all the time. I never once saw a woman walking around with her breasts hanging out. In fact, I have never seen that here in America in my entire life. Not to say it hasn't happened; but to present it as if it were a common occurrence really discredits your argument.

 

Doing something just because you can isn't always the right thing to do. I just think people need to be more considerate of one another and take a second or two to think about other people's feelings now and then. And it's hard to raise children in a world where no one does this anymore.

This I totally agree with. I often tell my children just because you can doesn't make it right.

 

Finally, I find it ironic that the same people who like to do whatever they want are the ones who are so bothered when I write whatever I want.

 

(maybe I am a wavemaker! Wow...who knew?) ;)

 

Statements such as the above regarding breastfeeding do bother me because they seem to be exaggerations of infrequent events.

 

Ack! I can never get those quotes in quotes right.

 

Janet

Edited September 10, 2009 by Ishki
The quote thing...

[lionfamily1999]

Statements such as the above regarding breastfeeding do bother me because they seem to be exaggerations of infrequent events.

 

Janet

Oh, I don't know Janet. There's places where the women are bare breasted all the time. Maybe we're just coming from the wrong continent.

 

 

 

 

 

This is tongue in cheek. I am joking, sort of.

[Impish]

You know what bothers me most about breast feeding debates when it comes to public feedings?

 

The implication, or out right stated that men cannot control themselves. Those poor unfortunates that are simple slaves to their hormones, we must do nothing to provoke them to the brink of helpless arousal.

 

Huh.

 

As the mother of sons, the wife of a husband, I find the whole idea that men are helpless to their hormones and must be protected to be insulting. Otherwise, we shouldn't allow the poor simple minded souls out of the house. There might be someone scantily clad in an advertisement that puts him over the edge...or a provocatively dressed woman at work or on the street, and he may be helplessly led to an affair, since he's controlled by his hormones, the poor simpleton. :glare:

[HRAAB]

Gently please with non-nursers, even if you have to choke back your mean-spirited words. Women do not nurse for various reasons. Drop from shock now, but there even are women whom God fashioned with breasts so badly inverted that nursing is impossible, no matter what instrument of torture is applied in a futile attempt to remedy the problem. I tried, valiantly, with four children. Even the LLL woman understood that I was not a wicked, evil, perverted woman, and that nursing simply was not going to succeed on account of anatomical structure beyond human modification.

 

This entire subject sticks in my craw because of the nastiness exhibited from women-to-women. What happened to that mythology about women standing together to support each other ?!

It is hard to think well of us women as a group whenever I encounter such outlandish hostility (from either side of the issue).

 

 

I am sorry you were made to feel this way. I admit I have encountered women who are so fanatical about breastfeeding, that they would make a non-breastfeeding mother feel like less of a woman. That is absolutely wrong. After all those years of breastfeeding, my youngest decided had health issues which necessitated my supplementing her feeding and consequently weaning her earlier than I wanted. It couldn't be helped; her health was the primary concern. Which is why I breastfed my others, but for her other means were better for her health.

 

I so wish women could support other women: nursing, not nursing, homeschooling, not homeschooling, working, staying home. The list goes on and on, but we seem to like to draw our lines.

 

Janet

[justamouse]

You know what my evidence is that people just don't care as much as they used to care?

 

Urine covered toilet seats. And I mean yellow urine, not just water that might have splashed up from a flush.

 

It is getting worse. every. year. Stores, restaurants, parks, etc... it seems like every toilet is covered with urine!!!

 

It is selfish & disgusting not to mop up after yourself.

 

Tell me about it! When we went to the state parks this year it was like a garbage dump and the bathrooms were beYOND disgusting. I even had the kids help clean up the beach!

 

AND, part of the OP: an introvert is NOT a person who doesn't LIKE people or society, an introvert is a person who needs SOLITUDE to recharge, rather than getting their energy from people/crowds/public.

[lionfamily1999]

I so wish women could support other women: nursing, not nursing, homeschooling, not homeschooling, working, staying home. The list goes on and on, but we seem to like to draw our lines.

 

Janet

 

 

introvert, extrovert, cart recoverer, cart ditcher, all natural, all chemical....

 

it would be a nicer place to be, that's for sure

[unsinkable]

introvert, extrovert, cart recoverer, cart ditcher, all natural, all chemical....

 

it would be a nicer place to be, that's for sure

 

...i was wondering when someone would bring up the shopping carts...

[Senorita Tuna Fish]

Popping in again--today I am waiting for an incubator of chicks to hatch, so have enough time to play on the computer!

 

There is so much talk about whether the male should or shouldn't get aroused in a public breastfeeding situation or what he should or shouldn't be thinking. Oh, please! Let's put the responsibility for this squarely where it belongs - on the woman choosing to feed openly or not. The OP was lamenting the loss of consideration for others in our society.

 

The woman breastfeeding in complete disregard to whether it might be uncomfortable or create a negative effect in others is taking a very self centered position. She may be within her rights, but she is showing no kindness or caring to others who may be struggling with their own weaknesses.

 

"Anyone who is aroused at seeing the average uncovered BFer in public has a problem. I would advise that person to spend more time in prayer regarding this issue."

 

I could run around in extremely suggestive clothing because it might be cooler than what I normally wear. I could say that my farmer neighbors have a problem because my clothing would put inappropriate thoughts into their heads. And I could march around, arrogant and stalwart in my position. OR I could have compassion on these people. I could think about the struggles they and their wives have been through and determine that I would suck it up and sweat a bit more and wear something that would not add to their problem. I could be a part of the solution, not adding fuel to the fire. If only I cared enough about my fellow human beings to inconvenience myself just the littlest bit. If they had improper thoughts, is it their problem not mine? Of course. Should they pray about their inadequacies? Of course. Am I reasonable to expect them to be perfect? Of course not. Am I? (That doesn't even deserve an answer!:D)

 

Each of us has the option of choosing to help our fellow human beings along in the struggle of life or to disregard them as we plow forward meeting our own needs, leaving them behind to deal with their own problems.

 

I am a busy homeschool farm mom. I don't have time to spend in idle chatter but I definitely love others enough to curb some of my conveniences and pleasures to try to make sure that we all make a success of life. I would hate to live in a society where no one else was willing to do the same.

 

Very well said! I was reading all the post and i wanted to comment but I didn't want to just say "anything" that came to mind. I'm glad you said what you said because it should bring us back to the OP original thoughts about people not caring about anyone else. NO ONE ALWAYS want to follow the crowd but that doesn't mean that we have to put it out there for everyone to see feel taste and touch just because we can. I would really like to thank the OP because as a new person to the thread I wanted to say something about this very thing but as a new person I knew it wouldn't be taken very well. I see it wasn't taken very well period.

[ezrabean2005]

We're homeschoolers on this board, ppl. Talk about 'wave makers' and doing what's right for US, our children, without care of other folks kids, school boards, etc. Heck, there was an article someone linked recently talking about how we OWE the schools our children, in order to set example and help the other kids, and we, as involved parents would be a help to the school.

 

Perhaps we should line up to register our children, since wave making and putting our own needs and callings FIRST is such a bad thing.

 

 

:iagree:

This is why I find it fascinating that this conversation has gone this direction. I thought it would go the other way. We are the wavemakers....some more than others. Some choose to not report anything to the state and others will follow the law to the letter. Some are polite about it and some might judge others for not doing the same. But either way, we are still choosing our family's rights / our rights and preferences over that of "society's" perceived rights (to send our children to a school away from home).

 

Oh. But I don't make waves by peeing on a toilet seat. Ew.

I don't know why: but I wanted to make that clear.:lol:

Edited September 10, 2009 by ezrabean2005

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

Gently please with non-nursers, even if you have to choke back your mean-spirited words. Women do not nurse for various reasons. Drop from shock now, but there even are women whom God fashioned with breasts so badly inverted that nursing is impossible, no matter what instrument of torture is applied in a futile attempt to remedy the problem. I tried, valiantly, with four children. Even the LLL woman understood that I was not a wicked, evil, perverted woman, and that nursing simply was not going to succeed on account of anatomical structure beyond human modification.

 

.

 

 

Oh no....I certainly didn't mean to offend non-nursers. It's such a personal choice. I'm really, truly sorry if I hurt your (or anyone's feelings) about that. I just had to defend myself about being called ignorant. Please forgive me.

 

Where in the world do you live that women walk around with their breasts hanging out?

 

 

Shoppers Food Warehouse....Fredericksburg, VA. I'm walking through the frozen food section and BAM! There's a mom walking around with her shirt wide open, everything hanging out...and her baby trying to nurse, but it's tricky with mom reaching in and out of the freezer. The kid wanted breastmilk, not ice cream! :lol: (Bad joke, trying to lighten the mood) Maybe not a very common site, but it does happen.

[lionfamily1999]

...i was wondering when someone would bring up the shopping carts...

I dwell on shopping carts. I try to gather them on my way in the store. It drives me nuts. I don't begrudge someone leaving them there, I just feel guilty if I see them and don't bring them in.

 

That argument seems so benign to me, I guess, it seems safe to use as an example.

[HRAAB]

You know what bothers me most about breast feeding debates when it comes to public feedings?

 

The implication, or out right stated that men cannot control themselves. Those poor unfortunates that are simple slaves to their hormones, we must do nothing to provoke them to the brink of helpless arousal.

 

Huh.

 

As the mother of sons, the wife of a husband, I find the whole idea that men are helpless to their hormones and must be protected to be insulting. Otherwise, we shouldn't allow the poor simple minded souls out of the house. There might be someone scantily clad in an advertisement that puts him over the edge...or a provocatively dressed woman at work or on the street, and he may be helplessly led to an affair, since he's controlled by his hormones, the poor simpleton. :glare:

 

I really need to leave this alone, but... My dh comes from a family with 9 boys. Since these discussions on breastfeeding, I have asked dh if it turns him on s*xually or makes start lusting if he sees a woman breastfeeding, or by a slight mishap gets a quick glimpse of her nipple. His answer was 'nonsense'. And yes, he's all male. Recently I had the opportunity to ask his brothers at a family get together. Same answer with a look like I was nuts. A nursing breast is a different thing that your wife's breast in a moment of intimacy. Of course, they grew up in a home where mom was always nursing a baby so maybe that disqualifies their answers. Dh also asked male friends at work; pretty much same answer. So maybe their answers aren't disqualified.

 

The other thing dh pointed out is that men are always being described as these humans who can't control their animal instincts, that they're mastered by their base instincts with no hope of ever overcoming it. Since I don't have any boys to worry about, I probably am not qualified to address this. However, one of the first things I would teach a son about the female body is that the primary function of breasts if for nourishment. If my dh and his brothers don't find themselves lusting away at the sight of a nursing mom, I think there is hope for the male population.

 

Janet

[OH_Homeschooler]

Shoppers Food Warehouse....Fredericksburg, VA. I'm walking through the frozen food section and BAM! There's a mom walking around with her shirt wide open, everything hanging out...and her baby trying to nurse, but it's tricky with mom reaching in and out of the freezer. The kid wanted breastmilk, not ice cream! :lol: (Bad joke, trying to lighten the mood) Maybe not a very common site, but it does happen.

 

Ah, okay, so it was an isolated incident, and she was in fact at least attempting to feed a baby. Hardly seems like the sort of thing to get your panties in a bunch about.

[lionfamily1999]

 

 

Shoppers Food Warehouse....Fredericksburg, VA. I'm walking through the frozen food section and BAM! There's a mom walking around with her shirt wide open, everything hanging out...and her baby trying to nurse, but it's tricky with mom reaching in and out of the freezer. The kid wanted breastmilk, not ice cream! :lol: (Bad joke, trying to lighten the mood) Maybe not a very common site, but it does happen.

I've shopped there and never gotten to see that. I think the problem lay in that she is actually trying to bfeed, you might've caught her at an akward moment, but it seemed as though you were describing women just sauntering around breasts flying everywhere and baby set aside.

 

I had no idea we were so close (distance wise). Lol, be glad I'm an introvert then, or you could be stuck meeting me (heaven forbid :lol:).

 

 

ETA FYI, Fredricksburg is not full of women running around topless. Go to a first night celebration and the height of craziness ensues once the pear drops. Yes, the pear. We're not talking about a crazy, party sort of place.

[Happy]

I think the rudeness on this thread is exactly what the OP was asking about...are we as a culture more centered on what WE personally need/want/care about rather than making an attempt to co-exist with another person?

 

We aren't being very compassionate, very tactful, or careful with each other in my opinion on this thread. I'm all for vigorous, passionate debate and discussion, but some posts on this thread border on flaming. Really over kill.

 

I'm having an on-going conversation with a person politically and religiously opposite me. She and I have both agreed that listening very carefully to the other person is important. (Hey, this board has really helped me see that!) We also understand that the person speaking is more important than the issue and we treat each other kindly no matter how misguided we think the other one is! Wouldn't our culture be better if we adopted a 'seek first to understand' attitude?

 

Let's be gentle with each other...like we are all fully ripened peaches and easily bruised.

[unsinkable]

I dwell on shopping carts. I try to gather them on my way in the store. It drives me nuts. I don't begrudge someone leaving them there, I just feel guilty if I see them and don't bring them in.

 

That argument seems so benign to me, I guess, it seems safe to use as an example.

 

It didn't seem benign to me when posters indicated I was petty & should worry about more important things.

 

I finally stopped posting on it b/c even though I had been trying to make the point that little things in life that we do to help out DO matter & that I didn't want anyone to leave her child to return a cart, that was all people kept saying --- stop being so petty, I'm not leaving my child to return a cart...

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

Very well said! I was reading all the post and i wanted to comment but I didn't want to just say "anything" that came to mind. I'm glad you said what you said because it should bring us back to the OP original thoughts about people not caring about anyone else. NO ONE ALWAYS want to follow the crowd but that doesn't mean that we have to put it out there for everyone to see feel taste and touch just because we can. I would really like to thank the OP because as a new person to the thread I wanted to say something about this very thing but as a new person I knew it wouldn't be taken very well. I see it wasn't taken very well period.

 

Thank you.

[Word Nerd]

I dwell on shopping carts. I try to gather them on my way in the store. It drives me nuts. I don't begrudge someone leaving them there, I just feel guilty if I see them and don't bring them in.

 

That argument seems so benign to me, I guess, it seems safe to use as an example.

 

:lol::lol: You must have missed that thread!

[lionfamily1999]

It didn't seem benign to me when posters indicated I was petty & should worry about more important things.

 

I finally stopped posting on it b/c even though I had been trying to make the point that little things in life that we do to help out DO matter & that I didn't want anyone to leave her child to return a cart, that was all people kept saying --- stop being so petty, I'm not leaving my child to return a cart...

I'm sorry, I glanced at the thread, but it wasn't on my radar, so to speak. I had not idea it had actually gotten nasty (over shopping carts of all things?!?).

 

 

:(

 

I'm sorry.

[Night Elf]

My post was referring to mothers who literally walk around with their breasts hanging out so that their baby can feed as needed.

 

I wonder... isn't such a generalization like this to prove a point taught in critical thinking? I'm fairly positive the OP did not mean exactly what she said here but was going for such an extreme statement as to persuade others to see the situation as she does. Isn't this a fallacy of some sort? And doesn't a fallacy like this hurt one's credibility?

 

It's fine to debate, but I firmly believe we should be very careful with what we say, or in this case with what we type. Words need to be chosen carefully because there it's very difficult to backpeddle to change a statement. Politicians get ripped for that all the time. :)

[unsinkable]

I'm sorry, I glanced at the thread, but it wasn't on my radar, so to speak. I had not idea it had actually gotten nasty (over shopping carts of all things?!?).

 

 

:(

 

I'm sorry.

 

You don't need to apologize.

 

It's one of those threads that made me grow a bit. I learned to walk away.

[Mrs Mungo]

What is truly important? One of the reasons more people even in our own country don't nurse, thereby increasing their baby's health risks and lowering the general health of our society, is fear of nursing in public and dealing with the ridiculous, ongoing societal taboo of breastfeeding. People need to get over their squeamishness.

 

I agree. To me, this is a public health issue. Seeing other women nurse makes women more comfortable with the idea. I would never vilify women for their choices or inability to breastfeed (and I know what you're talking about, I have been sharply criticized on AP-lists in the past because of my position). However, I think as a society it's important to facilitate breastfeeding because it *is* better for women, babies and the health of our population.

 

I'm also going to have to agree with justamouse that you see total breast exposure in paintings of Christ and the Madonna all the time, in *churches*, even! ;)

 

Baby Jesus latches on

 

Baby Jesus nurses some more

 

An aside-did you guys know they made Jesus and Mary checks? Who knew!

 

The Vatican encourages paintings of the Madonna breastfeeding.

 

eta: Why in the world would other people care so much about shopping carts? Granted, it is a problem when people let them roll around. I was driving through the Costco parking lot the other day when a stray cart ran into the side of my truck! But, most people who leave carts make sure they are stable. You never know what's going on with someone else.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Mrs Mungo

[dragons in the flower bed]

Why does the herd have to tolerate the wavemaker with a smile on its face when the wavemaker is the one choosing to be different?

 

I believe that the majority of people either don't think things through, and therefore are happy to change when someone else's feelings are pointed out, or they do think things through and have made a stance. I've only known one person ever who really could say, well, bully for you, huzzah for me, and mean it.

 

I think we're busy. We're distracted. We're tuned in to our machines. When we're reminded to look up at the PEOPLE, we're still compassionate.

 

Sometimes though, like with breastfeeding or slutty covers of magazines at kids' eye level or whatever, I think there's something else at play. Firstly, it's not about what we want, it's us doing what we believe in. Secondly, we're not just asking you to tolerate us; we're offering to live and work and play and educate and perform our civic duties side-by-side with people who are doing what we believe to be unethical, in exchange for being granted the same consideration. It's not "I do what I want, too bad for you," it's "I do what I believe is ethical, and I will tolerate you doing that too." This is pretty important to allow I think, even when it feels like too-bad-for-you.

[Tangerine]

. Recently I had the opportunity to ask his brothers at a family get together. Same answer with a look like I was nuts. A nursing breast is a different thing that your wife's breast in a moment of intimacy. Of course, they grew up in a home where mom was always nursing a baby so maybe that disqualifies their answers. Dh also asked male friends at work; pretty much same answer. So maybe their answers aren't disqualified.

Janet

 

I remember after I was finally done nursing after 2 back to back kids, my husband said to me, "I've seen enough boob to last me the rest of my life". :001_huh: It's been my experience that it tends to make many men uncomfortable, but arousal is pretty far down the list of reactions.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I'm sorry, I glanced at the thread, but it wasn't on my radar, so to speak. I had not idea it had actually gotten nasty (over shopping carts of all things?!?).

 

 

:(

 

I'm sorry.

 

It's not just here where that thread got nasty, it seems to happen on any message board where the topic is brought up.

 

But it does sort of help me understand why the whole notion of this thread bothers me. I am the type of person who always returns carts. I do a variety of nice things, just like anyone. But it seems like the OP would disregard those behaviors just because I am not the kind of person to exchange niceties frequently. Then she would point to my not extremely social behavior and say that was evidence for a downturn in society.

 

This is why I truly believe it's worthless to talk about how society is getting ruder. People have a multitude of behaviors and attitudes and we are only seeing one part of those when we observe them. And we do look for the things that are important to us-that's only natural. So I can totally relate to the toilet seat issue brought up earlier, and yes I do complain when I sit down in someone else's puddle. But I don't use that as an indictment on society as a whole. I just think that person was rude in that instance. This person who left a puddle may spend all of her free time reading to the blind, I just don't know.

 

Here's an example that shows you just never judge: I was on my way somewhere the other day and a car coming from the other direction slowed down, it was obvious the driver needed to ask me something. So I stopped and he needed directions to the middle school for some event. There's construction around it and the main route is blocked, so I gave him the directions. People started honking at us and giving us dirty looks (they could have just gone around). When I thought about it from their perspective, we could have just been neighbors chatting about anything, and that would definitely be perceived as rude-they might even come to a message board such as this and complain about how everyone's just rude. But from my P.O.V. I was being helpful-not wanting to disappoint a kid who expects his father to see him play a game or whatever.

 

So honestly, you just never know the whole story and yes, people will become prickly when you complain about them on a message board, and even use their words on that message board as evidence for the true evil sprouting up in society.

[Emmy]

I think this could have been an interesting discussion if the example of breastfeeding hadn't been included in the OP. I do think there is an overwhelming lack of courtesy these days and that the "well this is what I do, so deal with it" attitude is becoming more pervasive. Unfortunately, the breastfeeding issue is such a hot button topic it's dominating the thread....

[Senorita Tuna Fish]

I still think that no matter was said in this post to point out the OP's fault for posting this subject...her point was made clearly by peoples response in the negative. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing...there is however something wrong with things escalating to the nastiness that some of these threads get to. There are threads that are started and they could make for some really interesting debate but instead the go down in flames as this sort of mean spirited bickering and I know better than you cause this is how I feel and I'm gonna tell you about it in the nastiness way i possibly can. I'm gonna discredit you and call you names and curse you and your family and your whole way of life. There's nothing wrong with debate just keep it clean and above board....that's all I'm saying....