Does anyone else feel that homeschool science curricula is just not meaty enough?

[Lovedtodeath]

 

The Science Logic looked like a good idea. I've only looked at R.E.A.L. at the grammar level.

I thought you were using Elemental Science?

[Colleen in NS]

I would like to contribute something about the big picture of teaching science to our kids--especially in regards to preparing them for college courses.

 

I helped teach chemistry to college students. The students that struggled couldn't do math (especially algebra). They couldn't think logically...in a mathematical sense.

 

much greater attention should be given to math, logic, and critical thinking.

 

'but the students from the Gymnasien have the best trained minds. Give me a student who has been taught his Latin grammar, and I'll answer for his chemistry.' "

 

Thank you for your contribution!!

 

I was a high school student who just could not understand chemistry, and I think it was because of math weaknesses - I had done algebra 1 and 2, and geometry, and did OK (but didn't really understand - except I did enjoy some of the geometry concepts and proofs). When I took chemistry, I was also taking pre-cal - which I finally had to drop after a month of afternoons getting extra help - I just could *not* understand it - and I think now that this is why I struggled with chemistry - just plain old bad math preparation. I hope to do better by my kids.

 

We *are* concentrating on math, logic, critical thinking, and Latin, and this is just one more reason to prod me along the way. Thank you so much!

 

So the curriculum actually does serve a good purpose as a framework.

 

But if the curriculum whets our appetite for the topic, we can take it farther and enjoy it. And really, I ended up with curriculum for one very pragmatic reason: I wanted the topics to be all in one place. I'd rather have a framework and bring it alive than constantly to be searching, trying to decide what to do next.

 

This is the case for us, too. And I have a science oriented child. But this Mom needs *something* to start from, so we go through a spine book, and bounce off with library books and experiments from there.

[Carol in Cal.]

Chemistry mostly uses a subset of Algebra--really the easiest part of it, IMO, stuff that is often introduced already in pre-algebra.

 

But it's the comfort level with manipulation of variables and unit multipliers (conversion factors) that really makes or breaks chemistry-related math. I remember in Chem 1 gradually realizing that I should be able to glance at an equation and see that, for instance, all other things being equal, the volume should vary inversely with the pressure for gas in an enclosure. I should be able to convert inches to furlongs (ha!) very quickly, and quickly picture the unit multipliers that would get me there, and assess whether they should be used as their fractions or as their reciprocals. The key here is speed and insight.

 

It's not that the algebra used in chemistry is all that difficult. It's that it has to be mastered to the point of being a tool; of being intuitively accessible very quickly.

 

Physics is kind of the same way, only using easy early calculus. You have to be able to recognize that changes in velocity or position with time are derivatives. You have to recognize that equations that include those derivatives are referring to velocity or acceleration, without missing a beat. You can't take the time to think about it too much.

 

The math has to be the tool, not the point.

 

One of the things that I add to my decidedly non-mathy dd's pre-algebra studies is the opportunity/requirement that she use simple models that she can remember to check her work. I want to create in her the habit of doing that checking pretty quickly. So, for instance, when she is thrown by the need to convert 6.5% into a decimal, and just tries to remember which way to move the decimal point, I ask her what common % to decimal conversion does she know, and what that would indicate is the right way to go? I also talk about the 'general case' a lot. She finds this annoying but helpful.

 

I also insist that she carry the units with her whenever she is doing a change in dimension, so that she can use them to check her work quickly.

 

And I encourage her to look at equations for lines and think about the functions--picturing them in her head. Which way does this slant? If X increases, what will Y do? Increase or decrease? We will do the same with equations for square functions as well.

 

I know that these little things will help her when she gets to chemistry in high school and beyond.

[Heather in VA]

:iagree:You have great points, my only caution with chemistry before biology is to make sure your children have adequate math skills. My experience has been that most students who struggle with chemistry, struggle because of inadequate/poor math (algebra) skills.

 

We are doing Chemistry before Biology. My daughter has had Algebra already but we also did a program called Bridge Math which focuses on how to apply that math in the science environment. It is a great little program that lasts a couple of months. Definately worthwhile to help avoid this pitfall.

 

Heather

[petepie2]

Chemistry mostly uses a subset of Algebra--really the easiest part of it, IMO, stuff that is often introduced already in pre-algebra.

 

But it's the comfort level with manipulation of variables and unit multipliers (conversion factors) that really makes or breaks chemistry-related math. I remember in Chem 1 gradually realizing that I should be able to glance at an equation and see that, for instance, all other things being equal, the volume should vary inversely with the pressure for gas in an enclosure. I should be able to convert inches to furlongs (ha!) very quickly, and quickly picture the unit multipliers that would get me there, and assess whether they should be used as their fractions or as their reciprocals. The key here is speed and insight.

 

It's not that the algebra used in chemistry is all that difficult. It's that it has to be mastered to the point of being a tool; of being intuitively accessible very quickly.

 

Physics is kind of the same way, only using easy early calculus. You have to be able to recognize that changes in velocity or position with time are derivatives. You have to recognize that equations that include those derivatives are referring to velocity or acceleration, without missing a beat. You can't take the time to think about it too much.

 

The math has to be the tool, not the point.

 

One of the things that I add to my decidedly non-mathy dd's pre-algebra studies is the opportunity/requirement that she use simple models that she can remember to check her work. I want to create in her the habit of doing that checking pretty quickly. So, for instance, when she is thrown by the need to convert 6.5% into a decimal, and just tries to remember which way to move the decimal point, I ask her what common % to decimal conversion does she know, and what that would indicate is the right way to go? I also talk about the 'general case' a lot. She finds this annoying but helpful.

 

I also insist that she carry the units with her whenever she is doing a change in dimension, so that she can use them to check her work quickly.

 

And I encourage her to look at equations for lines and think about the functions--picturing them in her head. Which way does this slant? If X increases, what will Y do? Increase or decrease? We will do the same with equations for square functions as well.

 

I know that these little things will help her when she gets to chemistry in high school and beyond.

 

YES! This is all true. And these specific things that you've mentioned are exactly what the college students that I worked with couldn't do. They couldn't do their algebra nor could they USE their algebra. They had no idea if X went up, down, sideways or in loops! Sounds like you're teaching great concepts that will most definitely be needed when she gets to the sciences.

[Colleen in NS]

But it's the comfort level with manipulation of variables and unit multipliers (conversion factors) that really makes or breaks chemistry-related math.

 

It's not that the algebra used in chemistry is all that difficult. It's that it has to be mastered to the point of being a tool; of being intuitively accessible very quickly.

 

Physics is kind of the same way, only using easy early calculus.

 

The math has to be the tool, not the point.

 

Ya know, it's brilliant posts like this (the best parts to me are quoted) that make me think, "I could maybe do this!!" You have just explained things to me, simply, that I never understood in high school. Thank you!

[Strawberry Queen]

I also model sound thinking by "talking out" decisions I make in front of dc.

 

I'm not sure if doing that would teach my girls logic. Probably the exact opposite.:smilielol5:

 

This is a great thread and leaves me much to mull over this afternoon. Thanks to all.:D

[Carol in Cal.]

Ya know, it's brilliant posts like this (the best parts to me are quoted) that make me think, "I could maybe do this!!" You have just explained things to me, simply, that I never understood in high school. Thank you!

 

Aw, Colleen, you have totally made my day! Thank you!

[Blessedfamily]

..... But my 10 yo dd is a totally different ball of wax. She WANTS the words for those things, and while she likes to build them in response and explore, she's much more likely to sculpt or sew or plan her dream house (a farmhouse with cows and goats!). ...... So there are different paths too......... But I do think the thing our kids have in common, despite gender and interests, is they want their questions answered and they want real depth and content. ...... So the curriculum actually does serve a good purpose as a framework. ........ But if the curriculum whets our appetite for the topic, we can take it farther and enjoy it. And really, I ended up with curriculum for one very pragmatic reason: I wanted the topics to be all in one place. I'd rather have a framework and bring it alive than constantly to be searching, trying to decide what to do next. .....

So not a disagreement, but just an observation that it might not work with a different kid, say a history-loving, artist, home-ec girl. :)

 

I butchered your post to get to the parts that struck home with me. I need curriculum to be a guide or framework really for myself (though my dd explores in science every day).

 

I use Dr. Nebel's, which isn't actually a textbook but more of a guide, and living books. I will get a program when we finish to have a framework for her use (my dd loves to learn the terms and so forth too). I'm leaning towards MHP for the way it makes you expand and think.

[Blessedfamily]

....

 

 

This is the case for us, too. And I have a science oriented child. But this Mom needs *something* to start from, so we go through a spine book, and bounce off with library books and experiments from there.

 

 

Yes, this is what I was trying to say. The book I'm using now is a framework for me and we bounce off of that. When I move to a spine text for dd to have as a framework, we will still bounce off of that too.

[8filltheheart]

Momof7, that's great that the path you used with your eldest worked, and I see why. But my 10 yo dd is a totally different ball of wax. She WANTS the words for those things, and while she likes to build them in response and explore, she's much more likely to sculpt or sew or plan her dream house (a farmhouse with cows and goats!). She's not likely to study engineering or even take science in college unless by some fortuosity she pursues nursing (which I actually think would be a good major for her, since she takes such good care of me, lol). So there are different paths too. If my boy is like your oldest, absolutely I'd go that way. But left to herself, our science would only be researching snowflakes and collecting toads, not exactly balanced. But I do think the thing our kids have in common, despite gender and interests, is they want their questions answered and they want real depth and content. With the BJU elementary science you're forever butting up against walls. They start you into something good, explain it very well (for the age it's directed at), then leave them hanging, wanting more, lots more. So my engineer husband comes to the table, looks at her projects, and tells her what's really going on and does more variations with her. Then she's happy. But curriculum never accounts for this. Would she do it on her own, without the curriculum? No, frankly. Mercy, she wouldn't even know how to spell the words if she didn't have to write them in the study guides. So the curriculum actually does serve a good purpose as a framework. Take Snap Circuits. I got her Snap Circuits to go with the BJU4 science (which of course it doesn't call for), and she poo-pooed it at first. Got her into them and she LOVED them, worked on them for hours. Does she get them out on her own? No, because she's busy working on a quilt, ice skating, and re-enacting the Battle of Bunker Hill. But if the curriculum whets our appetite for the topic, we can take it farther and enjoy it. And really, I ended up with curriculum for one very pragmatic reason: I wanted the topics to be all in one place. I'd rather have a framework and bring it alive than constantly to be searching, trying to decide what to do next. Like I said, I think our science would be very light or scattered if it weren't for this framework and a little bit of "Oh, have you considered studying this?" That's a good thing, I think.

 

So not a disagreement, but just an observation that it might not work with a different kid, say a history-loving, artist, home-ec girl. :)

 

I debated about whether or not to reply to this b/c I don't want you think I am diminishing in any way what you are accomplishing with your dd, b/c I absolutely am not. I think that your approach is laudable and obviously works well for both your personality and your dd's.

 

The difference is that I am completely comfortable if my elementary age child does want to spend the entire yr studying "snowflakes." My 10 yod has spent almost an entire yr on bird studies. She is a budding ornithologist. I don't see it as a detriment to her science studies in anyway. I had another child spend months and months on the study of bees. (He read over 15 books on them.)

 

I simply do not worry about a framework or about gaps. I really, truly, and honestly do not believe that you have to worry about the existence of gaps in elementary school science. For me, it is all about the wonder, fascination, and desire to explore ideas. Science does not have to be quantified in an overview of biology/botony, chemistry, geology, and physics. There are literally 100s science topics that are out there to explored in depth. (and I imagine that meteorology and the formation of snowflakes is one of them. ;) :lol:)

 

Also, all my kids are not like my oldest in taking a hands on approach to "physical" things. Several, like my budding ornithologist, are more into observing, recording, and sketching, etc. Again......I don't worry about it. It is still scientific study with inherent value and personal ownership of the information.

 

I understand that that philosophy makes many people uncomfortable. It isn't for them. I am not denigrating your opposing POV. I am simply affirming that the alternative POV (non-textbook, non-vocabulary specific) is a perfectly acceptable path for the elementary yrs and is not detrimental to over all science education outcomes.

[PeterPan]

Momof7, I see what you mean now. My dd does that with history instead of science. ;)

[Annabel Lee]

It's threads like these that make me so glad that I found this forum. All these combined years of experience speak volumes to those of us w/ younger children or are otherwise "new to it". I am really grateful to you, OhElizabeth, Momof7, Moni, and others that I can't recall this early in the a.m. I glean so much from you all and just wanted to say thanks. By your combined input I am reassured in my gut instinct to play more math games, demonstrate math concretely, and focus on a good foundation in the basics. Who would have thought a science thread would have pushed me off the fence about whether to study Latin? We'll be doing it by 4th grade.

 

PS: I'll "2nd" that book Sagira mentioned: "Homeschooling for Excellence" by Miki Colfax. It was the first "real" homeschool book I read that started me on this journey. Also, for anyone interested, R.E.A.L. science is neutral but has a list of resources in the front of the TM for teaching evolution. Ring of Fire Science is neutral/secular, as Myrna writes these for use in all schools, public schools included.

[Chez J]

We are doing Chemistry before Biology. My daughter has had Algebra already but we also did a program called Bridge Math which focuses on how to apply that math in the science environment. It is a great little program that lasts a couple of months. Definately worthwhile to help avoid this pitfall.

 

Heather

 

What is Bridge Math? I googled it and got the typical summer bridge math workbooks you see in stores. Is it this or something different? What level if so?

 

Lesley

[Chez J]

The Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments has a nice breakdown of what should be in a lab report, what each section covers and why you need to do one.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0596514921?ie=UTF8&tag=homeccom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0596514921

 

Do other sciences have book like this that would be as good as this looks?

 

Lesley

[Heather in VA]

What is Bridge Math? I googled it and got the typical summer bridge math workbooks you see in stores. Is it this or something different? What level if so?

 

Lesley

 

 

It's put out by Beginning Publishings - the guys who do Rainbow Science and Spectrum Chemistry.

 

Here's a link:

http://www.beginningspublishing.com/

[funschooler5]

Ring of Fire Science is neutral/secular, as Myrna writes these for use in all schools, public schools included.

 

Thanks! I've been waiting for an answer to that :lol:. I plan on using the Ring of Fire Igneous Rocks program after we're done with The Elements.

[Chez J]

The Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments has a nice breakdown of what should be in a lab report, what each section covers and why you need to do one.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0596514921?ie=UTF8&tag=homeccom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0596514921

 

Asking again in case readers are clicking on "last page" and missed this question at the end of page 17.

 

Do other sciences have book like this that would be as good as this looks?

 

Lesley

[Matryoshka]

It's put out by Beginning Publishings - the guys who do Rainbow Science and Spectrum Chemistry.

 

Here's a link:

http://www.beginningspublishing.com/

 

Wow, that looks like a great little program! When do you think it's best done? I'd probably do it over a summer - after 7th grade, or sooner/later?

 

And bummer - you can't get it from Rainbow Resource anymore - I like to consolidate shipments. Wonder why?

[LadyAberlin]

 

And bummer - you can't get it from Rainbow Resource anymore - I like to consolidate shipments. Wonder why?

 

I spoke with RR about some of their products, like Beautiful feet, that they no longer carry and they said that some of the smaller companies will decide that it is just financially better for them to be the sole provider of the curriculum. I guess it was difficult to be distributing to other curriculum providers and it cuts costs to just sell it themselves. I'm assuming it probably is the same with Rainbow Science. Although for me I'm more likely to purchase something if RR carries it because it helps me out on shipping costs.

[jewel7123]

Supply and demand. You have to decide what you want and then purchase materials that will meet your needs.

 

Decide how far you want to go at the high school level and then work backwards to choose your jr. high and elementary programs.

 

I have found that a good way to judge a rigorous high school program is to spend time with a SAT II Subject Test Prep book for that discipline. Those tests are the college-accepted "bar" for that subject. The leveler. I have no desire to homeschool college. My choice. My goal is to provide a college-ready math/science education. That is my personal choice. So I try to make sure that we are covering the material that they will need to the very best of my ability. We go beyond the curriculum as much as I can. (In my travels, I have unearthed a healthy amount of philosophy and ethics that begs discussion in mathematics and the sciences; it peppers our lives.) But we do a hefty amount of hard science around here too. I'm trying to teach to those tests; cover that material. Yup! I'll readily admit it without hesitation. I'm teaching to the test. We reach beyond as much as we can. But that's my base line. For example: our chemistry lab has grown quite a bit since last year, and we possessed a hefty amount of equipment last year. It's going to be a grand experience. :001_smile:

 

Back to our personal goals. I have a bar - where are we headed. For us it is a distinct possibilities that all of my kids might seriously be interested in a major in math or the sciences in college. Will our high school chemistry program enable the student to get a 650 on this test? A 700? A perfect 800?

 

What's your goal? What do you want to accomplish? What are you willing to set aside in order to achieve that goal. Everything has an opportunity cost. It is foolish to believe that you can explore every path infinitely. I have to give up something else in order to do everything else that I want to do. Denying that doesn't change it. Even typing this post. I forgo something else.

 

Maybe you don't care about someone else's "bar." Find your goal and then shoot your arrow and hit that bulls-eye.

 

I think we as homeschoolers enter a place of confusion when we say that we are working toward a goal that we haven't explored. Go find out what your target looks like and then put together a plan that will allow you to hit that target. Speaking in generalities about a target that I really know nothing about can be a shaky proposition. Very often I have had lengthy conversations with high school homeschooling parents where they say things like, "______ program is a great science/math/history program." When I ask them why they think it is great, both of us discover that they have just heard that it's great. Who says? Umm.... some friend, some expert... or maybe "I don't know. I've just heard that."

 

Every program has an entry point and an exit point. Find out what the program covers and take the time before you begin to see if the program lines up with your goals for the student. How far do you want to go? How far CAN you go with this child? I have found that it really is better to make an educated guess than to fail to explore the question. Find a program that meets the child's needs; that's the benefit of a personalized education. We fall into the same trap as an institutionalized school when we assume that a certain "good" program will naturally fit just because it is "good." Why? Who says? What criteria have they used to determine its "goodness?" :001_smile:

 

That's the way I have approached it for us. And our plan will certainly not be enough for some and too much for others. Makes no matter. It's a good plan for each of my kids. I have a rough notion as to why it's good for us; that's all I need. :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Wow, just wow.

[Trish]

Asking again in case readers are clicking on "last page" and missed this question at the end of page 17.

 

Do other sciences have book like this that would be as good as this looks?

 

Lesley

 

There was one 1 star review that is worth reading as a caveat, at the Amazon listing.

[Colleen in NS]

I really enjoyed this thread when it appeared a year and a half ago. And Carol in Cal., in case you are reading this again, I am now watching TTC high school chemistry lectures, and you were right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can do this!!!

[Carol in Cal.]

I really enjoyed this thread when it appeared a year and a half ago. And Carol in Cal., in case you are reading this again, I am now watching TTC high school chemistry lectures, and you were right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can do this!!!

 

Hey, great, Colleen! :grouphug:

[LittleIzumi]

I own Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding K-2 and as I was scheduling it last night, I was wondering if it was too meaty and over ds' head. It doesn't dumb down, presents lots of advanced concepts.. all geared towards his age range. We'll see, but I think BFSU is probably an exception to the rule. I struggle to comprehend some of the concepts too, but I have no science background in college. When I do, both he and I have learned something valuable, though, and I appreciate challenging and stretching myself.

 

Last year in K we grappled with a lot of meaty subjects (for his age level) and although it took some explaining and the recommended extra books, he seemed to understand and is getting a picture of what science is all about, which is what I hope to achieve at this age.

 

I really like this program.

 

I have a science-mad dd5 and Nebel's BFSU was the ONLY program so far that seemed designed for kids to actually think about and learn science and apply the scientific method. It's such a nice change to find a science that expects children to think and understand. I have not tried all of the science curricula, but we have used several, from NOEO to Start-up Science to the science in boxed curricula, and nothing else came even close so far. Those were all.... fluff.

[Guest]

... Nebel's BFSU was the ONLY program so far that seemed designed for kids to actually think about and learn science and apply the scientific method. It's such a nice change to find a science that expects children to think and understand.

 

:iagree: While we are also using RS4K my 7 year old science loving boy loves BFSU's approach to science. He likes RS4K but BFSU challenges him to think rather than spoon feeding him facts. Exactly what keeps him and me happy :). I find that teaching the foundation of scientific understanding (as the title of the program says) is the most important thing at this age. It will help them understand and retain the facts in the future. Other programs did not work so well for us either, although I have not tried that many. This approach is exactly what I have been looking for and has Adrian asking to do science daily.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

:iagree: While we are also using RS4K my 7 year old science loving boy loves BFSU's approach to science. He likes RS4K but BFSU challenges him to think rather than spoon feeding him facts. Exactly what keeps him and me happy :). I find that teaching the foundation of scientific understanding (as the title of the program says) is the most important thing at this age. It will help them understand and retain the facts in the future. Other programs did not work so well for us either, although I have not tried that many. This approach is exactly what I have been looking for and has Adrian asking to do science daily.

 

Marie, how much prep time is required for each lesson? I couldn't tell much from the sample.

[Guest]

Marie, how much prep time is required for each lesson? I couldn't tell much from the sample.

 

I wouldn't call how much time I take as indicative :tongue_smilie: since I am sure it differs for everyone but it takes me approximately an hour or slightly more sometimes to prepare. I sometimes change some of the activities or add, so I need some time to work things in. I also highlight points of discussion directly in the book and mark with numbers the points of discussion and I even write notes on what I add or want to emphasize.

[Guest]

I also want to point out that you need to take time to read the intro information. It is really useful for setting up the lessons and figuring out the program but that is time you will invest only once (for the most part), at the start and may need to refer back to the "Flow Chart for the Presentation of Lessons". So far I am following the order in the book and have started with Thread A but I will be moving onto thread D after we are done to cover some local requirements on Earth and Space first before moving on.

[ELaurie]

and still evaluating RS4K, but I wanted to add that the RS4K site lists additional experiments for each chapter, and includes chapter tests (those many be for members only - I bought our materials at a convention, and a free memberhip was included with the purchase), and other additional supplementary materials for teaching.

 

I'm using RS4K with the KOGS this year, which adds considerably to the text. I like some of the KOGS more than others - they link the concepts introduced by the text with technology, history, critical thinking skills, the arts, and Greek and Latin word roots. Dr. Keller has also carefully listed ways that each concept in the texts relate to national science standards on her web site.

 

With the KOGS and other supplemental materials, plus whatever reading my dc do on their own (biographies about scientists, for example) I feel like they are getting a good foundation in science.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I wouldn't call how much time I take as indicative :tongue_smilie: since I am sure it differs for everyone but it takes me approximately an hour or slightly more sometimes to prepare. I sometimes change some of the activities or add, so I need some time to work things in. I also highlight points of discussion directly in the book and mark with numbers the points of discussion and I even write notes on what I add or want to emphasize.

 

I also want to point out that you need to take time to read the intro information. It is really useful for setting up the lessons and figuring out the program but that is time you will invest only once (for the most part), at the start and may need to refer back to the "Flow Chart for the Presentation of Lessons". So far I am following the order in the book and have started with Thread A but I will be moving onto thread D after we are done to cover some local requirements on Earth and Space first before moving on.

 

Thank you! That is exactly what I wanted to know.

[Guest]

Thank you! That is exactly what I wanted to know.

 

You're welcome :)

[lovinmomma]

I have a science-mad dd5 and Nebel's BFSU was the ONLY program so far that seemed designed for kids to actually think about and learn science and apply the scientific method. It's such a nice change to find a science that expects children to think and understand. I have not tried all of the science curricula, but we have used several, from NOEO to Start-up Science to the science in boxed curricula, and nothing else came even close so far. Those were all.... fluff.

 

:iagree:

[grace'smom]

Since this thread began so long ago I am wondering how some of you would compare Elemental Science with some of these other sciences, like BFSU. I am not sure but I think Elemental Science is newer and may not have been around for all these wonderful comparisons.

 

I'm really struggling with what to use for science next year. I go from thinking of Nancy Larson all the way to thinking we can just read fun science books from the library. It's first grade, after all. My dilemma is this: I don't want to shortchange my daughter by not getting her a meaty curriculum, but I also wonder if she would be able to get as much out of something like that in first grade. For example, if we did Nancy Larson in first grade she might learn a certain amount, but wouldn't she be able to take in more and comprehend more if we waited until second grade to start that? It would save some $$$ too... Elemental Science seems like it sort of meets in the middle- but BFSU sounds great too if I could bring myself to put the prep time in...

 

So, in any case, I'm very interested in everything you guys have to say on the subject of elementary science!!!!

[Carol in Cal.]

Since you're talking about a first grader, what I would do is:

 

Buy all the Magic School Bus books you can find. Read them to your child every day, over and over, and when you make observations in 'real life' that support what he's learned, talk about that.

 

Join at least one children's science museum, natural history museum, aquarium, or zoo. Attend for about two half days per month, spending a LOT of time there. Discuss what you see. Your goal is to get him so bored that he delves deeper and deeper.

 

Take advantage of free guided nature walks locally. Give your child a lot of space to dig, make mud, build forts, build clubhouses, etc. in your back yard--maybe buy "Creepy Crawlers and the Scientific Method" to support this endeavor. Give him a small garden plot to plant in--veggies, flowers, whatever.

 

That's the best stuff for first and second grades.

 

Hold off on experiments and Nebel's under third, I think. Get RS4K starting in 4th, level 1.

[jewel7123]

I have questions along this same line. I'll probably start a new thread though. What Janice said about having your end goal in mind and then working backwards made a whole lot of sense to me. Now I have to figure out what my end goal is, exactly. What is the best, most rigorous high school science curriculum on the market? Is it BJU? Is that where I want to go? I haven't looked AT ALL at the options for high school since my daughter is only in K, but maybe I should be? Of course, by the time we get to high school there could and probably will be lots of other curriculum on the market, so trying to have the end goal TODAY is a bit confusing to me. BJU Science in the upper levels is talked about as if it's very meaty and rigorous, but when I looked at the 1st grade level, I was not impressed. It doesn't seem meaty at all, and in fact, I've read that their beginner sciences are NOT rigorous at all. Also, they definitely do not follow the classical model of doing one stream of science per year, such as life science for 1st, earth science for 2nd, etc. The 1st grade level just looks like a typical textbook.......delving into a large variety of topics but not going very deep with any of them. In fact, 1st-5th appears that way. Am I wrong?

 

Very interested to hear advice about elementary science as well.

[Halcyon]

Can BJU be taught secularly?

[Halcyon]

Because regardless of what one believes, whether it is evolution or creation, both views ARE religious in nature and both have staunch advocates who loooove to debate the topic ad nauseum. :tongue_smilie:

 

:confused:

[Guest]

Hold off on experiments and Nebel's under third, I think.

 

Nebel's first book (Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding) is designed for the K-2 group. It is purely hands on using observation and adding in some correlated reading (if you wish to use it, it is not required). The person doing it with the child does however need to put in some time for preparing the lesson. I don't find the science program difficult for the child, just maybe difficult for the person conducting the lessons to put in the time and be willing to follow through with the activities suggested. The program, my opinion of course :), is very well laid out and can be implemented for those that are interested in making it work. I have a science kid so I was determined to make it work ;).

[jewel7123]

Nebel's first book (Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding) is designed for the K-2 group. It is purely hands on using observation and adding in some correlated reading (if you wish to use it, it is not required). The person doing it with the child does however need to put in some time for preparing the lesson. I don't find the science program difficult for the child, just maybe difficult for the person conducting the lessons to put in the time and be willing to follow through with the activities suggested. The program, my opinion of course :), is very well laid out and can be implemented for those that are interested in making it work. I have a science kid so I was determined to make it work ;).

 

This sounds so interesting, but the part about no lessons plans and a lot of prep work is scaring me off, lol. I'm already going to have that with TOG.

[momofaandh]

I've been using BFSU for a while. I also have a strong background (B.A.Bio/M.S.Chem) in science andI love this program. I'm starting it over again for my youngest son (DS4). He's a bit young but he has been asking many questions and falls asleep every night with Magic School Bus books.

 

I have noticed a huge difference in how my DS7 sees the world and the type of questions he asks compared to other children and I believe a lot of itt is due to his background using BFSU because it's more han just facts.

 

Yes, there is some prep with this program but I don't think it's much more than any other program. As stated in earlier post this program doe not spoon feed facts into your child. It adds layers to your childs thinking and how they approach situations.

 

I also go through and highlight key facts and read through it. I take concepts and add them to index cards for quick refernce. After my children are in bed I reserve the books on the next unit we are going to discuss. I think it may take an hour or less to really prepare for a weeks lesson. Of course it's even less now that I'm starting my second round, I just need to reserve the books at the library.

[MangoMama]

 

Yes, there is some prep with this program but I don't think it's much more than any other program. As stated in earlier post this program doe not spoon feed facts into your child. It adds layers to your childs thinking and how they approach situations.

 

 

 

:iagree: BFSU is GREAT! We just received our volume 2 and are really looking forward to it!

[Guest]

This sounds so interesting, but the part about no lessons plans and a lot of prep work is scaring me off, lol. I'm already going to have that with TOG.

 

I can see the part about prep work scaring you off but I wouldn't say that BFSU does not have lesson plans. I am not sure why some people feel that way or why some call it disjointed. The way it is set up it focuses on four threads:

 

A: Nature of Matter

B: Life Science

C: Physical Science and

D: Earth and Space Science

 

Each thread is divided into sections that are your lessons. These lessons is what you work on each week, or you can take longer if you so chose or if you feel the kids have not understood the concepts or there's too much to cover. Each lesson has a breakdown of how long it will take roughly to cover with your child. Some lessons take less time while some lessons take longer and are therefore divided into more parts. You can add correlated reading to this, which includes books that are very easy for the child to follow, and for good to average readers they can read them themselves. Last but not least you can use every day life to reinforce what the kids are learning.

 

That's BFSU in a nutshell. But like I said before the person conducting the lessons needs to prepare the materials and this is why it is not for everyone. You are not showing them something tangible with science. You are teaching them a thinking process based on observation. No one can tell you you will say this and your kids will get it. Sometimes you need to improvise in order to get the concepts through to them, like I had to do today to explain how liquid goes up a straw. The programs that give the facts will tell them what happens but if they don't understand the why and the how they will not retain the information. That is what BFSU does. It teaches them to think of the hows and whys so that they can get the facts. Whether a program will work for you or not is up to you and your child(ren) :).

Edited January 29, 2011 by Guest

[Amy Jo]

Well, now I really, really want to buy BFSU. I'm thinking about just getting the ebook version now instead of waiting to buy the real book. Is there a lot of flipping pages (difficult on an ereader) required?

 

As far as working backwards, I think that has limits. My oldest is 8. I partly want to get the BFSU and get some science going because I could see him being an engineer or going into science. But I'm not planning his high-school yet. I believe nailing down the basics (reading & comprehending, math, Latin) along with broad exposure will prepare him for whatever comes in high-school.

 

Amy

[Guest]

Well, now I really, really want to buy BFSU. I'm thinking about just getting the ebook version now instead of waiting to buy the real book. Is there a lot of flipping pages (difficult on an ereader) required?

 

As far as working backwards, I think that has limits. My oldest is 8. I partly want to get the BFSU and get some science going because I could see him being an engineer or going into science. But I'm not planning his high-school yet. I believe nailing down the basics (reading & comprehending, math, Latin) along with broad exposure will prepare him for whatever comes in high-school.

 

Amy

 

It all depends on the kind of person you are and how you work best. I need the book next to me. That book is well loved in this house. I highlight it, mark on it, I even take it to bed with me when I need to prep and have not had the chance earlier in the day :). If you are good at taking notes then you can take notes on what and how you want to cover the materials and just use that. I like having the book next to me, that is just me ;). It saves me time from writing. If a PDF file works for you then go for it. The price is a steal, I find, for what you get.

 

I agree with you on working backwards. It would not work for me either for the simple reason that I want my son to move in the direction that he likes and is better at. While I also feel that I have a budding engineer in my hands I am not the one to decide that. I want him to chose his direction when the time comes. I hate teaching to a test (no offense to anyone). It was the mentality I saw a lot while going to school in Greece. I always studied the materials to make them mine (especially science and math), this automatically made me able to solve the problems that came in tests. Good test results (again my point of view) come with understanding first and then applying.

[Targhee]

BFSU used to have a yahoo group (at least two or three years ago it did). I can't remember the name (no longer a yahoo user), but something like k5 science or the like. Anyway, on it there were files posted by users, and Dr. Nebel, some of which were suggested sequencing of topics and lesson plans. If you're interested in the book and it's approach, but turned off by the prep work I would join the yahoo group to see what's available in the way of support and resources.

 

I did find there was a lot of page flipping, but that is the way I am with any book - I usually have two or three bookmarks (fingers) stuck in there as i go back and forth looking at things.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Targhee

[2squared]

Well, now I really, really want to buy BFSU. I'm thinking about just getting the ebook version now instead of waiting to buy the real book. Is there a lot of flipping pages (difficult on an ereader) required?

 

We love BFSU too. Here's how I set it up:

*Cut off the spine

*Hole punched and stapled together each lesson (A-1, A-2, etc)

*Put them in a 3 Ring binder in the order I plan to teach the lessons

*Made a grid listing materials needed, activities, add'l resources, and requisite lessons for each individual lesson. I use this grid to know at-a-

glance what resources I need to gather for each lesson.

 

I find BFSU easy to teach and easy to reinforce/review through daily living.

[Guest]

We love BFSU too. Here's how I set it up:

*Cut off the spine

*Hole punched and stapled together each lesson (A-1, A-2, etc)

*Put them in a 3 Ring binder in the order I plan to teach the lessons

*Made a grid listing materials needed, activities, add'l resources, and requisite lessons for each individual lesson. I use this grid to know at-a-

glance what resources I need to gather for each lesson.

 

I find BFSU easy to teach and easy to reinforce/review through daily living.

 

One thing to point out though, the ebook is not printable. I know you are talking about a printed book but just wanted to point that out for those that may not notice this while trying to buy the ebook.

[jewel7123]

It all depends on the kind of person you are and how you work best. I need the book next to me. That book is well loved in this house. I highlight it, mark on it, I even take it to bed with me when I need to prep and have not had the chance earlier in the day :). If you are good at taking notes then you can take notes on what and how you want to cover the materials and just use that. I like having the book next to me, that is just me ;). It saves me time from writing. If a PDF file works for you then go for it. The price is a steal, I find, for what you get.

 

I agree with you on working backwards. It would not work for me either for the simple reason that I want my son to move in the direction that he likes and is better at. While I also feel that I have a budding engineer in my hands I am not the one to decide that. I want him to chose his direction when the time comes. I hate teaching to a test (no offense to anyone). It was the mentality I saw a lot while going to school in Greece. I always studied the materials to make them mine (especially science and math), this automatically made me able to solve the problems that came in tests. Good test results (again my point of view) come with understanding first and then applying.

 

I definitely don't want to "teach to a test". I just want to make sure that my girls get a good quality, "meaty" science foundation in the early years so that when it comes time for something rigorous like BJU or something else, whatever it may be, they will be well prepared. I'm just confused on what that good quality meaty foundation is at the moment. :001_huh:

[Guest]

I'm just confused on what that good quality meaty foundation is at the moment. :001_huh:

 

Your are not the only one. Like this thread has shown there is not much out there sadly for this age group. Then again there are quite a few programs out there but it also all depends on how you choose to see it. I want a combination of secular and creationist. Even though I am not YE I like Apologia science enough to make it work for us but I cannot say much about Apologia until we actually start it. BFSU satisfies my need to teach my children the scientific way of thinking and Apologia, I am hoping, will satisfy my need to introduce the world to my children as God's creation. It all depends on what you want to do and what you are looking for. I am using RS4K along with BFSU currently. My son also likes RS4K but three programs in one year is already looking like too much so I need to come down to two. BFSU is a keeper from my part and my son's and we will redo it next year and then move onto book 2. Apologia I like because I find the book and information very well presented and it speaks to the child much like RS4K. I like that because I find that that helps the kids interact with the information. Encyclopedias for us are just added resources. Apologia also has lots of hands on activities in the form of experiments, notebooking and other activities like making bird feeders, bird baths etc. I know my kiddo is going to love that!

 

Why am I telling you all this? No I am not trying to sell you to any program. I am trying to sell you to the way of thinking ;). You need to see what you want to accomplish with your kids and then decide what program to use. Some of the curricula out there already have a good reputation but you need to choose based on your needs and what your kids wants/ likes are. I am a firm believer (although others may not agree) that learning styles play an important role to the success or failure of a program. I even believe that we can make a particular program work for us if we want it bad enough and are willing to tweak to make it suit our family. So, you need to see beyond what any one of us shares about a specific program, to what you feel will work for your family. Only you can decide that :). Keep the reviews that agree with your family and discard the ones that would not apply to you. Again, keep in mind that this is just my point of view :D.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Guest